Rippetoe's Fundamental Flaw
Replies
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Having a hard time finding gloves to match your purse, are we?
Not really--if you stick to basic black, it's really not that hard.0 -
Your argument contains the logical fallacy ad hominem. Please reevaluate your statements and formulate a new strategy for your argument if you intend on continuing your argument.So I've read Starting Strength with great interest and appreciation.
Rippetoe's description of the muscle groups and biomechanics involved in the major compound lifts was awesome. Incredibly useful not just as coaching tips but more so for an understanding of the fundamental physics of the lifts. Armed with that knowledge you can trouble-shoot problems by knowing specifically what is being accomplished in the body/gravity/barbell system.
However, fairly substantially detracting from his opinions and interpretations, is his attitude.
He speaks of using gloves for weightlifting, and spends a little time describing how they are unnecessary, they increase the diameter of the bar, they interfere with rather than enhance grip strength - - but then entirely undermines his credibility by finishing the piece with "If you insist on wearing gloves, make sure they match your purse." [1]
Everything up until that point sounded plausible and authoritative. Suddenly now, the closing point - the big take-away, the fundamental underpinning of his opinion - is that most of all, using gloves is something effeminate and thereby shameful, de facto negative.
This robs his opinions of merit. How now do I know where his advice is informed by science and physics, and where it is based on looking masculine?
[1] Rippetoe, Mark, "Starting Strength: Basic Barbell Training", 3rd edition - Kindle version, the Aasgard Company, 01/13/2013
[2]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJFjYyA40ss, 00:140 -
bump for funny Rip comments
and lighten up people are offensive all over the world, just learn to deal with it.0 -
Eh, I could careless about his personal opinions............................I'm more interested in his exercise philosophy.
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
On a scale of 1 to 10, how much less do you think you could care about his personal opinions. I mean, if you really tried?
And that wall of quotes from him? Yeah, those were pretty awesome.0 -
bump for funny Rip comments
and lighten up people are offensive all over the world, just learn to deal with it.
OP is dealing with it, by posting his review. Lighten up!0 -
I kind of find it funny how this community is all about women lifting and constantly beats down women who are afraid of "getting bulky" but at the same time laughs at someone who points out the "manly man boys club" mentality in the books that are held up as the basics of lifting. Go figure.
I agree with you OP. I think it's BS and makes him look like a terrible homophobe and a general a$$hat. It sucks that he's an "ambassador" as you call it of strength training.
Also, all the first amendment talk is insufferable. I'm gunna take a guess and say that you don't ever deal with hate speech? Yeah. Enjoy your privaledge.0 -
So was the OP serious?
I thought the list of quotes/anecdotes were hilarious.0 -
... What I care about is what WORKS, and I'm saying that the volume of his off-hand remarks leave me uncertain as to how much his philosophy is influenced by non-scientific matters.
Are you quite sure that you can't differentiate?
I'm quite certain that neither you not I can definitively state how much or little his advice and exercise philosophy is based upon his thoughts about homosexuals and women, and I'm damned certain that you can state for a fact that the answer is "not at all".I hear what you're saying, but say Paula Deen gave out a good recipe for gumbo. Her stance on her personal opinions of people doesn't affect the way her gumbo turns out.
I think that's an awesome example. So, Paula Deen has some really weird issues with racism. If she divulges in her recipe that it was specifically crafted without mayo so black people could enjoy it too, then I would definitely wonder whether the recipe was crafted to simply taste as good as it possibly could, or whether it was crafted with presuppositions in mind.
At the core, I don't give a crap that Rippetoe is a sexist or homophobe in and of itself. Lots of them in the world.He already gave his reasoning for the gloves, because they increase the circumference of the bar and do not improve your grip.
So - with respect to the circumference of the bar - Apollon's Axle and other larger-diameter bars are specifically used because the larger circumference provides for a more challenging grip. In that sense, larger bar circumference is associated with greater exercise and results for grip strength - not the converse.
With respect to improving your grip, preventing calluses, etc - he does provide some useful information - to avoid calluses, hold the bar thusly - this will insulate you from calluses without needing gloves. But why discourage gloves in the first place?
His point is muddied by his off-topic twelve-year-old-boy backslapping.
With regard to your helpful advice to disregard him and find someone more to my liking . . . this is a conversation and if you don't want to talk about the substantive issues, perhaps you should find a thread more to your liking? Or, to quote a wise man, "You should try being nicer."0 -
Nice patronizing, except that is exactly what this is about.
I could care less about his opinions when I am interested in his strength training philosophy. His perceived misogyny or homophobia does not invalidate his facts in the least.
I am also interested in his strength training philosophy - - which includes conclusions that "leg presses are gay" and "gloves are for women".
I'm not certain how I've been so unclear, but to clarify, I don't care what is for women or what is for gay people. What I care about is what WORKS, and I'm saying that the volume of his off-hand remarks leave me uncertain as to how much his philosophy is influenced by non-scientific matters. That's, and broader promulgation of strength training as a sport, hobby, and pastime is what this is about, not butt-hurt feels.
Any activity that centers on men and sports is bound to have a certain amount of this type of B.S. I take the good and choose to ignore the bad. I do the same with both Rippetoe and Wendler. There's a bit of a generational difference between them though and I see a lot of what Wendler says as so much good natured trash talk. Rippetoe good natured? Not so much. I agree with your basic point though I do think taking this type of thing with a grain of salt makes our lives that much easier to live.0 -
I kind of find it funny how this community is all about women lifting and constantly beats down women who are afraid of "getting bulky" but at the same time laughs at someone who points out the "manly man boys club" mentality in the books that are held up as the basics of lifting. Go figure.
I agree with you OP. I think it's BS and makes him look like a terrible homophobe and a general a$$hat. It sucks that he's an "ambassador" as you call it of strength training.
Also, all the first amendment talk is insufferable. I'm gunna take a guess and say that you don't ever deal with hate speech? Yeah. Enjoy your privaledge.
I think being a homophobe and a$$hat are entry-level job requirements in that area, so I don't think it's going to hurt him any.0 -
I doubt anyone else on this forum will recognize the name George Irvine, but if you do, you will recognize the same pattern.
These are both men who virtually revolutionized their respective pursuits specifically through their unrelenting attitude and unassailable experience and knowledge.
These are both men who, as a result of these same qualities, have seen an intense internet backlash from people who can't touch their accomplishments.
I will give the haters and complainers here the same advice that ol GI3 gave: rearrange your cotton.0 -
Is it a flaw? Yes.
Is it a fundamental flaw that invalidates everything else he has to say? No.
I don't condone homophobia or misogyny in my friends; that doesn't mean that sometimes some of my friends come out with homophobic or misogynistic comments. Not everybody is perfect in every way.
Plus Rip is right about gloves: I found they do make deadlifts much harder! Chalk is definitely the way to go.0 -
Your argument contains the logical fallacy ad hominem. Please reevaluate your statements and formulate a new strategy for your argument if you intend on continuing your argument.
If I may help you: I'm not arguing that because he's sexist, he is wrong. I'm arguing that because directly links his conclusion to his sexism, his conclusion is suspect. Please reevaluate your objection and formulate a new strategy for your counterargument.0 -
Rippetoe is a terrible homophobic asshat with good information on form and lifting.
Having to navigate life to glean information from asshats is just part of having to live in society. It kinda sucks that people buy into the "don't wear gloves or you're gay" crap because it does interfere with the "keep your *kitten* out and back" good stuff.
I, in fact, wear gloves. But only part of the time. Sometimes only on one hand. You could even call me bi-gloval. And to further clarify, just because I like to wear gloves sometimes doesn't mean that I'm not committed to the bar.0 -
I cant wait for Utopia where everyone gets to say and believe the exact same thing. What a glorious time that will be. I'll play devils advocate with you, so what if he is a homophobe and a sexist? Do you think he gives a tinkers damn what you think? Or me for that matter? Get over yourself and stop trying to find things wrong everywhere.0
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If you think I am being mean, then I can understand why you felt it necessary to make this thread.
The larger diameter bars do make for a more challenging grip, but they are specifically for improving grip strength, no? That would mean that during the course of your usual workout, you would not want to use a larger diameter bar while, let's say, deadlifting, because you would be more likely to need wrist straps because your grip would potentially fail as you approach your 1RM.
However, by all means, use gloves. I dont really see anything wrong with them and have used them myself in the past. They make me feel badass.0 -
His conclusion is not based on his (alleged) sexism. In the instance of not using gloves, his argument is correct. Gloves increase the width of the bar because you have to grip around the gloves as well. Plus, they can be even worse for causing callouses because they can cause extra friction between your hands (more surfaces interacting). After he makes his claim, he makes a joke that could be interpreted by some as being sexist. The joke is not the basis for his claim.Your argument contains the logical fallacy ad hominem. Please reevaluate your statements and formulate a new strategy for your argument if you intend on continuing your argument.
If I may help you: I'm not arguing that because he's sexist, he is wrong. I'm arguing that because directly links his conclusion to his sexism, his conclusion is suspect. Please reevaluate your objection and formulate a new strategy for your counterargument.0 -
I kind of find it funny how this community is all about women lifting and constantly beats down women who are afraid of "getting bulky" but at the same time laughs at someone who points out the "manly man boys club" mentality in the books that are held up as the basics of lifting. Go figure.
I agree with you OP. I think it's BS and makes him look like a terrible homophobe and a general a$$hat. It sucks that he's an "ambassador" as you call it of strength training.
Also, all the first amendment talk is insufferable. I'm gunna take a guess and say that you don't ever deal with hate speech? Yeah. Enjoy your privaledge.
I think being a homophobe and a$$hat are entry-level job requirements in that area, so I don't think it's going to hurt him any.
I think Chris D i c k e r s o n would disagree with this. He's not so into self-loathing.0 -
Personally I find his lack of PC refreshing, it makes him real, unpolished. If anything it adds to his credibility.
Rigger0 -
If you think I am being mean, then I can understand why you felt it necessary to make this thread.
The larger diameter bars do make for a more challenging grip, but they are specifically for improving grip strength, no? That would mean that during the course of your usual workout, you would not want to use a larger diameter bar while, let's say, deadlifting, because you would be more likely to need wrist straps because your grip would potentially fail as you approach your 1RM.
However, by all means, use gloves. I dont really see anything wrong with them and have used them myself in the past. They make me feel badass.
I don't think you're being mean, Wheird. I think you're being dismissive and you're debating in bad faith.
The question at core is not whether or not we should use gloves. The question is on the extent to which his conclusions, including about gloves, are based on his distaste for women or gays. I'm not the one who made that connection, HE is.
I imagine you're one of those folks that reads the OP but not the discourse. There is no issue with him 'simply' being a homophobe and a sexist. Whether he cares what I think or not is irrelevant. And you certainly needn't care what I think. But it's not about whether he's a good person or a bad person. He has intrinsically linked his homophobia and sexism with his exercise philosophy. That's why it matters. I have no idea how much his exercise philosophy is influenced by his belief that gloves are for women.cant wait for Utopia where everyone gets to say and believe the exact same thing. What a glorious time that will be. I'll play devils advocate with you, so what if he is a homophobe and a sexist? Do you think he gives a tinkers damn what you think? Or me for that matter? Get over yourself and stop trying to find things wrong everywhere.0 -
a) Gloves are for *kitten*
b) Who cares? (apart from the OP, obviously)0 -
a) Gloves are for *kitten*
b) Who cares?
See, I love lifting and I'm embarrassed of this. And I think it's really crappy that one of the best scholars promotes this stuff.
"Alleged" sexism indeed.0 -
In life and history there are lots of great scholars who were asshats in one way or another.
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
I kind of find it funny how this community is all about women lifting and constantly beats down women who are afraid of "getting bulky" but at the same time laughs at someone who points out the "manly man boys club" mentality in the books that are held up as the basics of lifting. Go figure.
I agree with you OP. I think it's BS and makes him look like a terrible homophobe and a general a$$hat. It sucks that he's an "ambassador" as you call it of strength training.
Also, all the first amendment talk is insufferable. I'm gunna take a guess and say that you don't ever deal with hate speech? Yeah. Enjoy your privaledge.
I think being a homophobe and a$$hat are entry-level job requirements in that area, so I don't think it's going to hurt him any.
I find that terribly depressing. The job of educating people on the positive health and self-esteem benefits of lifting requires a homophobic a$$hat? Note that the book is called "Starting strength" not "constantly doing dumbbell curls because I am a gym bro".0 -
These are both men who, as a result of these same qualities, have seen an intense internet backlash from people who can't touch their accomplishments.
This is a reasoning flaw I like to explain with a restaurant analogy.
You order a meal and later on you see the chef cursing out another employee in front of customers. You think this is unprofessional and say so to your friends. They respond "You fool, how dare you say that, you aren't a chef! Who are you to judge?"
In this case your friends are idiots. It doesn't matter if you're a chef or not in this case. Similarly you don't need to be strong or to be a published author to point out that Mark Ripptoe sometimes says stupid things.
I find myself questioning what he writes more and more often, because I always have to ask myself if he's saying it because it's solid training advice and he has facts to back it up or because he thinks it's manlier for some emotion based reason of his own.0 -
Well, I bought and use gloves and ironically they do match my gym bag (not planned), but then again I am a woman so what do you expect? Lol ;-)0
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These are both men who, as a result of these same qualities, have seen an intense internet backlash from people who can't touch their accomplishments.
This is a reasoning flaw I like to explain with a restaurant analogy.
You order a meal and later on you see the chef cursing out another employee in front of customers. You think this is unprofessional and say so to your friends. They respond "You fool, how dare you say that, you aren't a chef! Who are you to judge?"
In this case your friends are idiots. It doesn't matter if you're a chef or not in this case. Similarly you don't need to be strong or to be a published author to point out that Mark Ripptoe sometimes says stupid things.
I find myself questioning what he writes more and more often, because I always have to ask myself if he's saying it because it's solid training advice and he has facts to back it up or because he thinks it's manlier for some emotion based reason of his own.
By all means, question his statements. I'm sure he doesn't care. Neither does GI3. We're not at a restaurant and we're not their employees.
If you want to criticize them for their attitude, fine. But the point is that it's largely as a result of this attitude that they have accomplished what they have accomplished.0 -
a) Gloves are for *kitten*
Well it's a good thing I have one then because I use them.0 -
By all means, question his statements. I'm sure he doesn't care. Neither does GI3. We're not at a restaurant and we're not their employees.
If you want to criticize them for their attitude, fine. But the point is that it's largely as a result of this attitude that they have accomplished what they have accomplished.
Please clarify this assertion. I understand you to be saying that Rippetoe's derisive attitude toward women and gays is a large contributor to his accomplishments. I would like to understand this.0 -
By all means, question his statements. I'm sure he doesn't care. Neither does GI3. We're not at a restaurant and we're not their employees.
If you want to criticize them for their attitude, fine. But the point is that it's largely as a result of this attitude that they have accomplished what they have accomplished.
Please clarify this assertion. I understand you to be saying that Rippetoe's derisive attitude toward women and gays is a large contributor to his accomplishments. I would like to understand this.
You are intentionally misunderstanding me.
It's the unrelenting attitude and tendency to be insultingly dismissive of what they perceive to be poor or wrong ideas that is a large contributor to their accomplishments.0
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