Rippetoe's Fundamental Flaw

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  • delicious_cocktail
    delicious_cocktail Posts: 5,797 Member
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    Funny, I just looked at it as a joke. I am much more annoyed by mehdi's stronglifts emails... Sarcasm and opinions are fine with me, ranting is not.

    I guess I wasn't sure. I unsubscribed Mehdi's e-mails when he said "this proves my point that doctors are stupid". But - - that is because in my eyes, he lost all credibility for saying something so blindly arrogant and dumb.

    I still respect Rippetoe, and by and large his conclusions seem pretty damn straight. But since he's the authority and since he's done the research, the chance that his opinions are influenced by any presuppositions outside of science or physics makes me take what he's saying with a larger grain of salt.

    To wit, if I could increase my strength just two percent faster by doing it, I would wear heels and a dress to the gym. I don't lift because it's masculine, and I can't tell how much his philosophy is influenced by his conclusion that it is.
  • delicious_cocktail
    delicious_cocktail Posts: 5,797 Member
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    so in short, his biggest flaw is that he isn't nice and/or politically correct.

    The good news is that people who are seeking knowledge and information don't care about BS crap like that. Its not all teddy bears and rainbow crapping unicorns out there and his audience realize that.

    Good take-away. *head pat*
  • whierd
    whierd Posts: 14,025 Member
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    so in short, his biggest flaw is that he isn't nice and/or politically correct.

    The good news is that people who are seeking knowledge and information don't care about BS crap like that. Its not all teddy bears and rainbow crapping unicorns out there and his audience realize that.

    Good take-away. *head pat*

    Nice patronizing, except that is exactly what this is about.

    I could care less about his opinions when I am interested in his strength training philosophy. His perceived misogyny or homophobia does not invalidate his facts in the least.
  • BeachIron
    BeachIron Posts: 6,490 Member
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    I like Wendler's book better. Just my 2 cents.

    I strive try to stay North of Vag and very PC at the same time.
  • delicious_cocktail
    delicious_cocktail Posts: 5,797 Member
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    Nice patronizing, except that is exactly what this is about.

    I could care less about his opinions when I am interested in his strength training philosophy. His perceived misogyny or homophobia does not invalidate his facts in the least.

    I am also interested in his strength training philosophy - - which includes conclusions that "leg presses are gay" and "gloves are for women".

    I'm not certain how I've been so unclear, but to clarify, I don't care what is for women or what is for gay people. What I care about is what WORKS, and I'm saying that the volume of his off-hand remarks leave me uncertain as to how much his philosophy is influenced by non-scientific matters. That's, and broader promulgation of strength training as a sport, hobby, and pastime is what this is about, not butt-hurt feels.
  • BikerGirlElaine
    BikerGirlElaine Posts: 1,631 Member
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    ... What I care about is what WORKS, and I'm saying that the volume of his off-hand remarks leave me uncertain as to how much his philosophy is influenced by non-scientific matters.

    Are you quite sure that you can't differentiate?
  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 48,687 Member
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    I believe it's how one's perceives it. I took it as sarcasm. Of course for me there's lots said to me that I blow off and if you read a lot of what I post here, lots of sarcasm is included in many. Doesn't change my exercise or training philosophy though.

    If it wasn't already a cultural issue, it would just be a random joke. But when 90% of the women on this site, for instance, think that weightlifting IS a masculine thing or something that will make them masculine, it's crazy and counterproductive to promote that myth, especially by a fellow who is in so many other respects a representative and authority on the matter.

    In the same specific way that as a swimmer I wouldn't want to hear a swim coach jokingly say "don't swim like a black person" or a driver's ed instructor say "don't drive like an asian," I don't want to hear Rippetoe say "don't lift like a woman." Hell, I want more women in the gym, not less.
    I hear what you're saying, but say Paula Deen gave out a good recipe for gumbo. Her stance on her personal opinions of people doesn't affect the way her gumbo turns out.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
  • whierd
    whierd Posts: 14,025 Member
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    Nice patronizing, except that is exactly what this is about.

    I could care less about his opinions when I am interested in his strength training philosophy. His perceived misogyny or homophobia does not invalidate his facts in the least.

    I am also interested in his strength training philosophy - - which includes conclusions that "leg presses are gay" and "gloves are for women".

    I'm not certain how I've been so unclear, but to clarify, I don't care what is for women or what is for gay people. What I care about is what WORKS, and I'm saying that the volume of his off-hand remarks leave me uncertain as to how much his philosophy is influenced by non-scientific matters. That's, and broader promulgation of strength training as a sport, hobby, and pastime is what this is about, not butt-hurt feels.

    He already gave his reasoning for the gloves, because they increase the circumference of the bar and do not improve your grip. The part about them matching your purse was an opinion meant to bring levity.

    But by all means, disregard him and find someone more to your liking.
  • jwdieter
    jwdieter Posts: 2,582 Member
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    Limiting target audience to those who don't mind mixing in a little misogyny with workout advice is an economic decision. Obviously he'll get some backlash such as this thread, and maybe these sort of reviews will decrease his income. Maybe expressing his feelings about panties is worth the cost to him. Shrugs.
  • Mia_RagazzaTosta
    Mia_RagazzaTosta Posts: 4,885 Member
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    I like Wendler's book better. Just my 2 cents.

    I strive try to stay North of Vag and very PC at the same time.

    :laugh: :laugh:
  • Azdak
    Azdak Posts: 8,281 Member
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    Having a hard time finding gloves to match your purse, are we?

    Not really--if you stick to basic black, it's really not that hard.
  • BarackMeLikeAHurricane
    BarackMeLikeAHurricane Posts: 3,400 Member
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    So I've read Starting Strength with great interest and appreciation.

    Rippetoe's description of the muscle groups and biomechanics involved in the major compound lifts was awesome. Incredibly useful not just as coaching tips but more so for an understanding of the fundamental physics of the lifts. Armed with that knowledge you can trouble-shoot problems by knowing specifically what is being accomplished in the body/gravity/barbell system.

    However, fairly substantially detracting from his opinions and interpretations, is his attitude.

    He speaks of using gloves for weightlifting, and spends a little time describing how they are unnecessary, they increase the diameter of the bar, they interfere with rather than enhance grip strength - - but then entirely undermines his credibility by finishing the piece with "If you insist on wearing gloves, make sure they match your purse." [1]

    Everything up until that point sounded plausible and authoritative. Suddenly now, the closing point - the big take-away, the fundamental underpinning of his opinion - is that most of all, using gloves is something effeminate and thereby shameful, de facto negative.

    This robs his opinions of merit. How now do I know where his advice is informed by science and physics, and where it is based on looking masculine?

    [1] Rippetoe, Mark, "Starting Strength: Basic Barbell Training", 3rd edition - Kindle version, the Aasgard Company, 01/13/2013
    [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJFjYyA40ss, 00:14
    Your argument contains the logical fallacy ad hominem. Please reevaluate your statements and formulate a new strategy for your argument if you intend on continuing your argument.
  • ncahill77
    ncahill77 Posts: 501 Member
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    bump for funny Rip comments

    and lighten up people are offensive all over the world, just learn to deal with it.
  • jofjltncb6
    jofjltncb6 Posts: 34,415 Member
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    Eh, I could careless about his personal opinions............................I'm more interested in his exercise philosophy.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    On a scale of 1 to 10, how much less do you think you could care about his personal opinions. I mean, if you really tried?

    And that wall of quotes from him? Yeah, those were pretty awesome.
  • jwdieter
    jwdieter Posts: 2,582 Member
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    bump for funny Rip comments

    and lighten up people are offensive all over the world, just learn to deal with it.

    OP is dealing with it, by posting his review. Lighten up!
  • _Emma_Problema_
    _Emma_Problema_ Posts: 261 Member
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    I kind of find it funny how this community is all about women lifting and constantly beats down women who are afraid of "getting bulky" but at the same time laughs at someone who points out the "manly man boys club" mentality in the books that are held up as the basics of lifting. Go figure.

    I agree with you OP. I think it's BS and makes him look like a terrible homophobe and a general a$$hat. It sucks that he's an "ambassador" as you call it of strength training.

    Also, all the first amendment talk is insufferable. I'm gunna take a guess and say that you don't ever deal with hate speech? Yeah. Enjoy your privaledge.
  • rybo
    rybo Posts: 5,424 Member
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    So was the OP serious?

    I thought the list of quotes/anecdotes were hilarious.
  • delicious_cocktail
    delicious_cocktail Posts: 5,797 Member
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    ... What I care about is what WORKS, and I'm saying that the volume of his off-hand remarks leave me uncertain as to how much his philosophy is influenced by non-scientific matters.

    Are you quite sure that you can't differentiate?

    I'm quite certain that neither you not I can definitively state how much or little his advice and exercise philosophy is based upon his thoughts about homosexuals and women, and I'm damned certain that you can state for a fact that the answer is "not at all".
    I hear what you're saying, but say Paula Deen gave out a good recipe for gumbo. Her stance on her personal opinions of people doesn't affect the way her gumbo turns out.

    I think that's an awesome example. So, Paula Deen has some really weird issues with racism. If she divulges in her recipe that it was specifically crafted without mayo so black people could enjoy it too, then I would definitely wonder whether the recipe was crafted to simply taste as good as it possibly could, or whether it was crafted with presuppositions in mind.

    At the core, I don't give a crap that Rippetoe is a sexist or homophobe in and of itself. Lots of them in the world.

    He already gave his reasoning for the gloves, because they increase the circumference of the bar and do not improve your grip.

    So - with respect to the circumference of the bar - Apollon's Axle and other larger-diameter bars are specifically used because the larger circumference provides for a more challenging grip. In that sense, larger bar circumference is associated with greater exercise and results for grip strength - not the converse.
    With respect to improving your grip, preventing calluses, etc - he does provide some useful information - to avoid calluses, hold the bar thusly - this will insulate you from calluses without needing gloves. But why discourage gloves in the first place?
    His point is muddied by his off-topic twelve-year-old-boy backslapping.

    With regard to your helpful advice to disregard him and find someone more to my liking . . . this is a conversation and if you don't want to talk about the substantive issues, perhaps you should find a thread more to your liking? Or, to quote a wise man, "You should try being nicer."
  • BeachIron
    BeachIron Posts: 6,490 Member
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    Nice patronizing, except that is exactly what this is about.

    I could care less about his opinions when I am interested in his strength training philosophy. His perceived misogyny or homophobia does not invalidate his facts in the least.

    I am also interested in his strength training philosophy - - which includes conclusions that "leg presses are gay" and "gloves are for women".

    I'm not certain how I've been so unclear, but to clarify, I don't care what is for women or what is for gay people. What I care about is what WORKS, and I'm saying that the volume of his off-hand remarks leave me uncertain as to how much his philosophy is influenced by non-scientific matters. That's, and broader promulgation of strength training as a sport, hobby, and pastime is what this is about, not butt-hurt feels.

    Any activity that centers on men and sports is bound to have a certain amount of this type of B.S. I take the good and choose to ignore the bad. I do the same with both Rippetoe and Wendler. There's a bit of a generational difference between them though and I see a lot of what Wendler says as so much good natured trash talk. Rippetoe good natured? Not so much. I agree with your basic point though I do think taking this type of thing with a grain of salt makes our lives that much easier to live.
  • Azdak
    Azdak Posts: 8,281 Member
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    I kind of find it funny how this community is all about women lifting and constantly beats down women who are afraid of "getting bulky" but at the same time laughs at someone who points out the "manly man boys club" mentality in the books that are held up as the basics of lifting. Go figure.

    I agree with you OP. I think it's BS and makes him look like a terrible homophobe and a general a$$hat. It sucks that he's an "ambassador" as you call it of strength training.

    Also, all the first amendment talk is insufferable. I'm gunna take a guess and say that you don't ever deal with hate speech? Yeah. Enjoy your privaledge.

    I think being a homophobe and a$$hat are entry-level job requirements in that area, so I don't think it's going to hurt him any.

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