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NYT article about obesity stating it's genetic, not lack of willpower
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THIS. Also if were just genetics, then how do people who are "genetically thin" have the same risk of getting obese when changing their diet to one that's much much higher calories?If it were genetics, why do we now have more obesity than 20 years ago?
Granted environment makes a difference. If one celebrates with food or hangs around food all the time, it's not uncommon for them to get overweight or obese. But it one CANNOT get obese if they don't surplus. And that's more a behavioral issue than a genetic issue.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
And then you ask how much of our behavior is genetic. And down the rabbit hole you go.
Although I think environment matters more. And affects the epigenome, too. Which is why I hate seeing parents loading their kids up on low nutrient convenience foods and allowing them to sit around, play video games, and get obese.3 -
THIS. Also if were just genetics, then how do people who are "genetically thin" have the same risk of getting obese when changing their diet to one that's much much higher calories?If it were genetics, why do we now have more obesity than 20 years ago?
Granted environment makes a difference. If one celebrates with food or hangs around food all the time, it's not uncommon for them to get overweight or obese. But it one CANNOT get obese if they don't surplus. And that's more a behavioral issue than a genetic issue.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
And then you ask how much of our behavior is genetic. And down the rabbit hole you go.
Although I think environment matters more. And affects the epigenome, too. Which is why I hate seeing parents loading their kids up on low nutrient convenience foods and allowing them to sit around, play video games, and get obese.
Now if we get into genetic basis of behavior we will never get out of that one lol!2 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »
THIS. Also if were just genetics, then how do people who are "genetically thin" have the same risk of getting obese when changing their diet to one that's much much higher calories?If it were genetics, why do we now have more obesity than 20 years ago?
Granted environment makes a difference. If one celebrates with food or hangs around food all the time, it's not uncommon for them to get overweight or obese. But it one CANNOT get obese if they don't surplus. And that's more a behavioral issue than a genetic issue.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
And then you ask how much of our behavior is genetic. And down the rabbit hole you go.
Although I think environment matters more. And affects the epigenome, too. Which is why I hate seeing parents loading their kids up on low nutrient convenience foods and allowing them to sit around, play video games, and get obese.
Now if we get into genetic basis of behavior we will never get out of that one lol!
It's really fascinating, though. Especially the epigenetic interplay. Wish I knew more about it!1 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »
THIS. Also if were just genetics, then how do people who are "genetically thin" have the same risk of getting obese when changing their diet to one that's much much higher calories?If it were genetics, why do we now have more obesity than 20 years ago?
Granted environment makes a difference. If one celebrates with food or hangs around food all the time, it's not uncommon for them to get overweight or obese. But it one CANNOT get obese if they don't surplus. And that's more a behavioral issue than a genetic issue.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
And then you ask how much of our behavior is genetic. And down the rabbit hole you go.
Although I think environment matters more. And affects the epigenome, too. Which is why I hate seeing parents loading their kids up on low nutrient convenience foods and allowing them to sit around, play video games, and get obese.
Now if we get into genetic basis of behavior we will never get out of that one lol!
It's really fascinating, though. Especially the epigenetic interplay. Wish I knew more about it!
That's the rub, nobody really does because human behavior is such a complex interplay between biology and environment. We are essentially highly efficient learning machines and we are constantly adjusting to our environments, which include social and physical environments. Some even theorize that self is just a story we tell ourselves and that behavior is far more biologically driven than we realize or would even accept. Personally, I reject that concept out of hand because it fails to explain how identical twins can actually have very different personalities (my twin and I for instance), but it is an interesting concept.2 -
My first thought about this is that it's a load of crap, but if it's what science says how can I dispute it?
Science absolutely can be disputed. That's what the entirety of science is - finding out how the world works. People used to think that combustible items contained phlogiston. People also used to think that sickness was caused by an imbalance in our body's humours. Science doesn't mean accepting something as true simply because someone else said it; science is reviewing the evidence and proceeding accordingly. It just so happens that many things that are established have an abundance of evidence behind them: germ theory, evolution, gravity, and so forth.
Just because a newspaper states something doesn't make it true. Media has a nasty habit of taking a study with conservatively-stated results and blowing them out of proportion. I could conduct a study where, idfk, there was a 15% increase in weight loss in subjects who inhaled 5 liters of methane a day versus the control group; the media would spin this into SMELLING COW FARTS CAUSES WEIGHT LOSS with absolutely no regard for the subtleties of the study.
If something seems like BS, ask. Don't just accept it because "science" says so. "Science" will ask "why? how? what evidence do you have? can you replicate these results? what are the outliers? are the results statistically significant?"4 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »
THIS. Also if were just genetics, then how do people who are "genetically thin" have the same risk of getting obese when changing their diet to one that's much much higher calories?If it were genetics, why do we now have more obesity than 20 years ago?
Granted environment makes a difference. If one celebrates with food or hangs around food all the time, it's not uncommon for them to get overweight or obese. But it one CANNOT get obese if they don't surplus. And that's more a behavioral issue than a genetic issue.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
And then you ask how much of our behavior is genetic. And down the rabbit hole you go.
Although I think environment matters more. And affects the epigenome, too. Which is why I hate seeing parents loading their kids up on low nutrient convenience foods and allowing them to sit around, play video games, and get obese.
Now if we get into genetic basis of behavior we will never get out of that one lol!
It's really fascinating, though. Especially the epigenetic interplay. Wish I knew more about it!
That's the rub, nobody really does because human behavior is such a complex interplay between biology and environment. We are essentially highly efficient learning machines and we are constantly adjusting to our environments, which include social and physical environments. Some even theorize that self is just a story we tell ourselves and that behavior is far more biologically driven than we realize or would even accept. Personally, I reject that concept out of hand because it fails to explain how identical twins can actually have very different personalities (my twin and I for instance), but it is an interesting concept.
I expect the complex interplay is years away from being understood but here are listed some of biology interplays known today for those who may be interest in the science behind weight level control. While I order the male panel from time to time I do not at this point in time have $200 I am interested in spending on weight science.
lifeextension.com/Vitamins-Supplements/itemLC100028/Weight-Loss-Panel-Comprehensive-Blood-Test
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That's what happens when you find out that the science says the negative effect of weight shows up at a lower weight than you previously thought.
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Many have pointed this out already, but...come on, NYT loses whatever credibility it has when it reports this *kitten*. I mean, come on;
"Dr. Raul J. Rosenthal, the president of the bariatric surgery society that funded the study, found this persistent belief in the power of diet and exercise hard to understand."
Of course it's "hard to understand", your livelihood literally depends on people believing they are genetically incapable of losing the weight on their own without surgical intervention. That's ludicrous.
In my view it's beyond irresponsible to tell people they can't control their own bodies. That's only going to make the obesity "epidemic" worse, and continue to drive up healthcare costs as more people opt for surgery when they don't need it.
Telling a person they don't have the genetic makeup to become an Olympic cyclist is one thing; telling them they will remain obese forever in spite of any effort to eat according to what their bodies need is another thing entirely.
And all bariatric surgery works exactly the same way: by making it extremely difficult to eat too much thus creating a calorie deficit.
But merely eating less without getting sliced and diced, that's pure fantasy.2 -
If it's truly genetic our grandparents would have been obese too.1
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If it's truly genetic our grandparents would have been obese too.
I mean, it kind of depends on one's environment, right? My grandfather lost mobility and gradually became obese in his late 80s and 90s. Because he wasn't able to move anymore he was eating too much.
Maybe there's such a thing as a genetic propensity for fatness, but I would assume the effect is negligible compared to the effect of eating an entire family sized bag of Doritos in one sitting.1 -
Genetics can totally play a role (it plays a role on the smaller end of the spectrum, too) but I don't think that means it's truly out of people's control if they're acknowledging any health conditions that may also be in the way of losses and lifestyle.3
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Somewhat germane: my ex-wife, who was overweight, would absolutely FREAK THE *KITTEN* OUT if more than say 4 hours had passed since her last meal. Timing foods throughout the day was a tremendous source of stress -- for both of us!!! Any vacation, day trip, or the like, the first thing we had to do was figure out where, when and what to eat so that the terrible 4-hour mark would not be breached.
My point is: three squares and two snacks is a relatively modern concept. And millions (billions?) of people don't even enjoy it today. So, how would my ex have survived 500 years ago? Or in a hunter gatherer society? (Ok, enough vitriol against the ex. Lol.)
We live in a time and place of such plenty that I think our expectations have gone totally out of whack.
I read that the more body fat a person has the more of the hunger hormone grehlin the body produces... I dunno, this was given to me as an explanation why I'd get so nauseated with gnawing hunger when I hadn't eaten when I was at my heaviest. It's like "why do I feel like I'm dying when I clearly have energy reserves to burn."3 -
nevadavis1 wrote: »Somewhat germane: my ex-wife, who was overweight, would absolutely FREAK THE *KITTEN* OUT if more than say 4 hours had passed since her last meal. Timing foods throughout the day was a tremendous source of stress -- for both of us!!! Any vacation, day trip, or the like, the first thing we had to do was figure out where, when and what to eat so that the terrible 4-hour mark would not be breached.
My point is: three squares and two snacks is a relatively modern concept. And millions (billions?) of people don't even enjoy it today. So, how would my ex have survived 500 years ago? Or in a hunter gatherer society? (Ok, enough vitriol against the ex. Lol.)
We live in a time and place of such plenty that I think our expectations have gone totally out of whack.
I read that the more body fat a person has the more of the hunger hormone grehlin the body produces... I dunno, this was given to me as an explanation why I'd get so nauseated with gnawing hunger when I hadn't eaten when I was at my heaviest. It's like "why do I feel like I'm dying when I clearly have energy reserves to burn."
Whether that was the cause is difficult to say unless someone took blood samples to see. It could be a host of causes that made you feel that gnawing hunger from grehlin levels to nutritional deficiencies to mental expectations or more likely a mixture of them. Either way, for those who experience them, they stink.3 -
I've written this before, but I am old enough to have seen the U.S. get fat. There was one fat girl in my elementary school, out of about 400 kids. There is no way that group had 50% genetically overweight people in it but now I am coming up on 50, I bet 50% of my age cohort is overweight. In my kid's classes there are many more overweight kids now too. Genetics doesn't work that fast. Diet, diet, and idleness are what happened. Nutrition and behavior.
That one fat girl in my elementary? Tanya. We were friends. Her, I absolutely would believe had a genetic predisposition to be fat. The rest of us didn't.
Ya, I'm 50 and there was one overweight girl in my class. One.2 -
BrunetteRunner87 wrote: »I just saw this article in the New York Times today:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/01/health/americans-obesity-willpower-genetics-study.html?&moduleDetail=section-news-2&action=click&contentCollection=Health®ion=Footer&module=MoreInSection&version=WhatsNext&contentID=WhatsNext&pgtype=article&_r=0
I don't generally tend to put much stock in what the NYT says, but is it possible that obesity can't be helped by willpower? Should we bother to try to lose weight? My first thought about this is that it's a load of crap, but if it's what science says how can I dispute it?
You are missing the point that matters. What I hate most about being obese, is that people assume that I eat everything that isn't bolted down AND I'm lazy. People who have spent their entire lives skinny think about what they eat and assume that you are eating double what they eat. That's the part that needs to change because that's the part that isn't true. I know skinny people who occasionally go on diets, they lose that last ten lbs in 2 weeks or so by just quitting pizza and not calorie counting at all. I mean, seriously? They aren't working harder, they aren't smarter, they aren't better, they are just one of those lucky people blessed with muscles which are wasteful and obese people have muscles which are thrifty. It's all genetic. 70% of weight is genetic. Compare that to height, 80% of your height is genetic, but, you don't see a bunch of ads around encouraging you to diet down to a more petite stature. People generally accept that height is not changing.
For a scientific article on differences in the genetically lean: http://gradworks.umi.com/37/32/3732324.html
Yeah, if you have to count every calorie and log it and double your activity to make a measly lb a week shift, you may be genetically obese. If you just quit eating pizza and lost all the weight, you are probably genetically predestined to be lean anyways.
There are some genetically thin people who have managed to make themselves obese. But, those are the people eating a whole chocolate cake or ordering a large pizza and eating the whole thing. Genetically thin people have to be outright gluttons to get obese and as soon as they just stop eating pizza (or pick any one similar food) the weight melts off without much exercise or thought into it. I don't know ANY obese people like that. All the obese people I know, eat less and weigh more than thin people.
The thing that really grinds me, is that someone who is genetically destined to be obese who has finally toughed it through the hunger and sweat to be thin is just lumped in with the genetically thin who have been thin the whole time eating candy, drinking alcohol, ordering appetizers before their steak dinner and so on.
I have a couple genetically thin friends. One of them eats an EASY 3000 calories for lunch and brings in candy everyday and then still eats some pasta dish for dinner every night. She gets like 3000 steps per day on her fitbit. Once a month or so she brings her kids to the pool at the YMCA and REALLY believes that the half hour she stands in the pool during swim class once a month is the activity that keeps her thin.
I don't want to lose all the weight and finally have my thin coworker act like I've learned her secrets to being thin. Give me a break. She should need a bigger door cut. If I ate like her I would qualify for "My 600lb Life". It's just absolutely not fair that thin people are glorified when most of them just lucked into it like a trust fund baby.
The thin you EARNED is worth way more than that.
I think that the genetic component being common knowledge would result in people being more understanding. Hopefully it would cut down on the naturally thin giving diet advice. I would love to never have another thin person tell me I could be thin too if I just ate candy only twice a week. Like, seriously? The last time I had candy was a single Cadbury egg around Easter time. I eat candy MAYBE 5 times per year. I've been told I should cut down to pizza once a week. At that point, I hadn't had pizza in YEARS.
Yeah, a lot of these thin people need to know they just lucked into it. I'm so tired of hearing them talk about how they got a salad once 2 weeks ago and that's why they're thin. (Meanwhile salad they got had more calories than the steak dinner but they don't even know what a calorie is because they've never had to know their entire lives)
Alright, rant over. A lot of thin people are naturally thin while eating more and moving less. A lot of obese people are eating less and moving more to still be obese. It isn't fair. It's up to you whether or not you want to swim upstream.
I choose to swim upstream, but, I know that it is a situation which is not fair.
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jenniferinfl wrote: »BrunetteRunner87 wrote: »I just saw this article in the New York Times today:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/01/health/americans-obesity-willpower-genetics-study.html?&moduleDetail=section-news-2&action=click&contentCollection=Health®ion=Footer&module=MoreInSection&version=WhatsNext&contentID=WhatsNext&pgtype=article&_r=0
I don't generally tend to put much stock in what the NYT says, but is it possible that obesity can't be helped by willpower? Should we bother to try to lose weight? My first thought about this is that it's a load of crap, but if it's what science says how can I dispute it?
You are missing the point that matters. What I hate most about being obese, is that people assume that I eat everything that isn't bolted down AND I'm lazy. People who have spent their entire lives skinny think about what they eat and assume that you are eating double what they eat. That's the part that needs to change because that's the part that isn't true. I know skinny people who occasionally go on diets, they lose that last ten lbs in 2 weeks or so by just quitting pizza and not calorie counting at all. I mean, seriously? They aren't working harder, they aren't smarter, they aren't better, they are just one of those lucky people blessed with muscles which are wasteful and obese people have muscles which are thrifty. It's all genetic. 70% of weight is genetic. Compare that to height, 80% of your height is genetic, but, you don't see a bunch of ads around encouraging you to diet down to a more petite stature. People generally accept that height is not changing.
Here's the really annoying thing, there are some genetically thin people who have managed to make themselves obese. But, those are the people eating a whole chocolate cake or ordering a large pizza and eating the whole thing. Genetically thin people have to be outright gluttons to get obese and as soon as they just stop eating pizza (or pick any one similar food) the weight melts off without much exercise or thought into it. I don't know ANY obese people like that. All the obese people I know, eat less and weigh more than thin people.
The thing that really grinds me, is that someone who is genetically destined to be obese who has finally toughed it through the hunger and sweat to be thin is just lumped in with the genetically thin who have been thin the whole time eating candy, drinking alcohol, ordering appetizers before their steak dinner and so on.
I have a couple genetically thin friends. One of them eats an EASY 3000 calories for lunch and brings in candy everyday and then still eats some pasta dish for dinner every night. She gets like 3000 steps per day on her fitbit. Once a month or so she brings her kids to the pool at the YMCA and REALLY believes that the half hour she stands in the pool during swim class once a month is the activity that keeps her thin.
I don't want to lose all the weight and finally have my thin coworker act like I've learned her secrets to being thin. Give me a break. She should need a bigger door cut. If I ate like her I would qualify for "My 600lb Life". It's just absolutely not fair that thin people are glorified when most of them just lucked into it like a trust fund baby.
The thin you EARNED is worth way more than that.
Science disagrees with this post.
The diet industry on the other hand fully endorses this post.13 -
I remember when I was 240lbs and I thought "mah genes... woe is me"
I was so salty about my crappy metabolism and kitten genes. Then I logged 1 day. My bad genetics were actually 2 people's worth of calories of "healthy" food.9 -
@jenniferinfl You don't know what they eat or don't eat when they get home, nor do you know their activity level. I bet people see me in a McDonald's and curse me just the same. Never mind the 12-15K steps I take in a day or the lifting 3/week.6
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