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NYT article about obesity stating it's genetic, not lack of willpower
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jenniferinfl wrote: »jenniferinfl wrote: »
@CSARdiver
Since you cannot find the science in my post, here it is: http://gradworks.umi.com/37/32/3732324.html
And another study: http://www.nature.com/nrg/journal/v6/n3/abs/nrg1556.html
And another study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18842775
And yet another study: http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1400613?rss=searchAndBrowse&#t=article
Obesity is genetic. Science knows that beyond refute. Scientist's KNOW that obesity and thinness are genetic. It's the entire fat-shaming population that wants to plug their ears to it the same as they plug their ears and hum over global warming.
I don't mean that people cannot lose weight, they can, just for a lot of the population it is going to be very, very hard to lose weight and keep it off. It can be done, but, it is not the same as being a person who is genetically thin.
None of these articles support your contention of genetics equating to fate. There was a recent flat earth experiment conducted that went about as well as this exercise.
Despite the volume of evidence contradicting your contention you are desperately clinging to one study conducted by Ethan Sims? That’s a sound plan to keep yourself a victim.
I do understand the effort to shift the blame from behavior to fate, but the evidence is quite simply…lacking. One of my favorite points in this site are the success stories where people shift from the victim mentality to one of ownership and accountability. Once people do this the impossible becomes possible.
I think you need to sort out precisely what you mean, because at this point this is coming across as excuses. You state that people are genetically fated to a set point weight, but can engage in behavior to change this. So which is it?
I see this community is exactly the same as ever.
I'm not saying that fat people can't lose weight, I've done it and kept it off for years. I see you've conveniently missed the part where I lost 100 lbs and kept if off for nearly a decade? That's right, wouldn't fit the way you perceive me. But, when I got down to those last 10 lbs, I was eating 800 calories, hadn't had my period in 6 months and walked 12 miles a day and could BARELY maintain it. Because, oh yeah, science indicates that genetically obese people who lose more than 10% of their body weight burn around 25% less than naturally thin people of the same size/age. Which, you would have read had you legitimately read the articles I posted. That's a pretty huge difference. That's being able to eat 1200 calories to maintain 120 lbs with a sedentary lifestyle versus having to eat 900 calories to maintain a sedentary 120 lbs. (I'm just using sedentary because it's the easiest to calculate, not actually suggesting that it's a good idea). I'm sorry, that may not seem like a big deal to you, but, if you'd ever done it you'd see why that's a huge deal. 300 more calories is a pretty big deal.
To the other poster, yes, I'm borderline hypothyroid, my doctor says it's not worth treating; I beg to differ a bit. I use a fitbit Blaze to track calories burned. I measure and weigh everything I eat. I track with trendweight. Supposedly the Blaze has a caloric overburn by about 2-3%. I'm a pretty active person and usually walk/jog enough to burn around 3200 calories per day. When I eat 2200 calories, which should be a 1000 calorie deficit (every single thing logged, even a single mini M&M) according to Trendweight my actual loss indicates that I am at a 638 calorie deficit per day. The most the Blaze should be off for me is by about 96 calories, but, I burn 362 calories less than I should or 266 calories allowing for the Blaze to be off. I'm sure that a big part of that is the fact that I just burn 10% less than the average. That would make sense with the borderline thyroid numbers. This is with my metabolism at pretty much the best it's been in awhile. I know that will keep dropping as I lose weight even after factoring in that light people burn less. Right now I'm losing 1.5 lbs a week, which is fine with me.
I'm still a bit annoyed though about how the lies we tell fat people just have ruined huge parts of my life. I destroyed my metabolism eating a 1200 calorie diet because I believed the people who told me I was sedentary. My fitbit has been a lifesaver. I can finally KNOW that I'm not lazy. I KNOW it. No one can hurt me with that ever again. I had 10,000 steps in before 3 pm and I didn't go for a walk. That was just wandering around the house taking care of my kid and pets and light housework and the pacing/fidgeting I've always done. I made myself so sick last time I tried to lose weight, I did the math here and everyone told me that I was probably sedentary or assume sedentary so I was eating 1200 calories or eating 1500 if I'd gone for a walk. I woke up one morning vomiting and had to use Pepto Bismal to be able to go to work. I was nauseous every single day for months and I know it was my diet here that caused it. The only thing my doctor could find wrong with me was borderline low albumin (a marker for anorexia) and low Vitamin D. I only quit having to bring a coffee can with me in my car to barf in around 5 months ago.
So, yes, I'm pretty touchy about all this. I'm just glad I finally tried a Fitbit. I thought they were the dumbest gimmick. I was over the moon when I looked at it at the end of my first day and saw my numbers.
Most of the fat people I know are fully aware of what they are eating. I know my skinny coworker is a fluke, most of my coworkers are at least somewhat mindful of what they eat. I've only met one other person like her and that was an exboyfriend from years ago. Back when the cops around here still had minimum weight limits to join, he tried so hard to get up to weight and just couldn't do it. He had to gain 20 lbs to qualify and just couldn't do it. But, those are the only two I've known. Most people I know are more the go up and down 10 lbs regularly people.
I also know that in some ways, I'm really lucky. No matter what, my crazy body stops at 240 every time. 100 lbs is a lot to lose. But, dear lord, those poor people who have a body that stops at 340 or 440? I just can't even imagine. As annoyed as I get about it, it could always be much worse.
Clinical evidence does not indicate this long term. Adaptive thermogenesis studies show diminished calories required in the short term, very similar to adding fuel to a furnace. The more fuel you add the hotter the fire. The more calories you add to a metabolic pathway, the more energy required to fuel the cascade. This does not mean that you had to eat 800 calories/day to maintain. This is disordered thinking and unhealthy. BMR is only the baseline. Any additional activity should of course be incorporated into you personal plan.
I have hypothyroidism resulting from a total thyroidectomy, yet I gain and lose weight depending on my caloric intake and output. Please explain how this occurs. Having access to a metabolics lab I have monitored my BMR/REE and only observed a ~5% decrease in BMR after being unmedicated for 30 days. Clinical evidence from other thryoid disorder patients show similar results.
There is no set point to weight. This is primarily reliant on your caloric intake and output.
Did you watch the Secret Eaters episode? If you believe this strongly that you are correct, why not prove this? Submit to a study and get your BMR tested.
"Luck is the residue of design" - Branch Rickey
You've mentioned the behavior that led you down bad paths before. Why not identify and change this behavior?12 -
I have often thought that I'd rather enter an ebola crisis overweight than at w low bmi though.1
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jenniferinfl wrote: »Or, we could just quit shaming fat people for being evolutionary superiors? Because, after all, that's why obesity is prevalent, because people who used less calories hunting/gathering survived longer to have children and the children who survived without starving were also selected to be thrifty with calorie use.
[citation needed]2 -
Knowing a scientific fact doesn't mean that you are using it as an excuse. It just means that you know the fact.
For instance, most people accept that 50% of marriages end in divorce is a fact. (Not sure about this crowd, but, it was the least controversial statistic thing I could come up with. ) Most people know this fact. At least, I've heard it enough to assume most people know it.
Knowing that fact results in several different reactions. Some people use it as an excuse to not get married at all. Some people know it, but, have other excuses for never marrying. Some people know it, know the risks and get married anyways. Some people know it, but believe they are special and divorce will never happen to them.
Denying it doesn't make it not true. I posted the scientific studies, you either didn't read them or couldn't comprehend them. That's fine, that isn't my problem.
Now, if we accept that genetic obesity is a thing like SCIENCE says it is, that can lead us to the same type of reactions as the divorce statistic above.
Some people will use it as an excuse to never lose weight. Some people will know it but use other reasons as excuses not to lose weight. Some people will use that knowledge, they will know the risks, they will make informed decisions when they lose weight- they will know that obesity (not overweight, obesity) is a lifelong disease. (They won't assume like I did that my obesity was cured, they won't assume they can put their scale away because they've kept the weight off for 10 years. They will KNOW it is always lurking. They will know those fat cells are waiting to refill at a rate that defies belief.) And then there is probably the most harmed group, the ones who believe they are fully cured when they lose the weight. The ones who don't believe that obesity is a lifelong thing. If you have ever been obese then you absolutely need to know that you are never cured. Never. You may not have to count everyday, but, you will always need to own a scale and weigh regularly, you will go through periods where you will have to go back to logging. It takes vigilance on at least a weekly basis to keep off the visible signs that you have obesity.
I gained back my 100 lbs because I believed I was cured. Everyone told me I was, I was a success story, I'd kept it off for 10 years. I had it figured out. Just 3 months of not weighing had me back at my original weight.
I didn't share those scientific articles for people to use them as excuses. I shared them so that people would fully understand what fighting obesity means. It is a fight that is NEVER over. As soon as you think it's over, you are in dangerous territory.
This time, thanks to science, I know that even when I lose the weight I am not cured. I am never cured. Knowing that is empowering and allows me to make good judgements and you can't steal that from me.
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armchairherpetologist wrote: »jenniferinfl wrote: »Or, we could just quit shaming fat people for being evolutionary superiors? Because, after all, that's why obesity is prevalent, because people who used less calories hunting/gathering survived longer to have children and the children who survived without starving were also selected to be thrifty with calorie use.
[citation needed]
Silly. Neel disputed his own hypothesis half a century ago.
Thrifty, drifty.
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jenniferinfl wrote: »I'm going to try this one more time. None of you will get it, but maybe it will help someone else.
Knowing a scientific fact doesn't mean that you are using it as an excuse. It just means that you know the fact.
For instance, most people accept that 50% of marriages end in divorce is a fact. (Not sure about this crowd, but, it was the least controversial statistic thing I could come up with. ) Most people know this fact. At least, I've heard it enough to assume most people know it.
Knowing that fact results in several different reactions. Some people use it as an excuse to not get married at all. Some people know it, but, have other excuses for never marrying. Some people know it, know the risks and get married anyways. Some people know it, but believe they are special and divorce will never happen to them.
Denying it doesn't make it not true. I posted the scientific studies, you either didn't read them or couldn't comprehend them. That's fine, that isn't my problem.
Now, if we accept that genetic obesity is a thing like SCIENCE says it is, that can lead us to the same type of reactions as the divorce statistic above.
Some people will use it as an excuse to never lose weight. Some people will know it but use other reasons as excuses not to lose weight. Some people will use that knowledge, they will know the risks, they will make informed decisions when they lose weight- they will know that obesity (not overweight, obesity) is a lifelong disease. (They won't assume like I did that my obesity was cured, they won't assume they can put their scale away because they've kept the weight off for 10 years. They will KNOW it is always lurking. They will know those fat cells are waiting to refill at a rate that defies belief.) And then there is probably the most harmed group, the ones who believe they are fully cured when they lose the weight. The ones who don't believe that obesity is a lifelong thing. If you have ever been obese then you absolutely need to know that you are never cured. Never. You may not have to count everyday, but, you will always need to own a scale and weigh regularly, you will go through periods where you will have to go back to logging. It takes vigilance on at least a weekly basis to keep off the visible signs that you have obesity.
I gained back my 100 lbs because I believed I was cured. Everyone told me I was, I was a success story, I'd kept it off for 10 years. I had it figured out. Just 3 months of not weighing had me back at my original weight.
I didn't share those scientific articles for people to use them as excuses. I shared them so that people would fully understand what fighting obesity means. It is a fight that is NEVER over. As soon as you think it's over, you are in dangerous territory.
But, go ahead, pick all that apart. LOL Love that all of you have your weight loss set to private. You all can read mine, I'm clearly not making excuses, I'm making informed choices.
This time, thanks to science, I know that even when I lose the weight I am not cured. I am never cured. Knowing that is empowering and allows me to make good judgements and you can't steal that from me.
Disagreeing with you =/= unable to get it. Glad you realized that maintaining healthy weight requires ongoing commitment.10 -
jenniferinfl wrote: »I'm going to try this one more time. None of you will get it, but maybe it will help someone else.
Knowing a scientific fact doesn't mean that you are using it as an excuse. It just means that you know the fact.
For instance, most people accept that 50% of marriages end in divorce is a fact. (Not sure about this crowd, but, it was the least controversial statistic thing I could come up with. ) Most people know this fact. At least, I've heard it enough to assume most people know it.
Knowing that fact results in several different reactions. Some people use it as an excuse to not get married at all. Some people know it, but, have other excuses for never marrying. Some people know it, know the risks and get married anyways. Some people know it, but believe they are special and divorce will never happen to them.
Denying it doesn't make it not true. I posted the scientific studies, you either didn't read them or couldn't comprehend them. That's fine, that isn't my problem.
Now, if we accept that genetic obesity is a thing like SCIENCE says it is, that can lead us to the same type of reactions as the divorce statistic above.
Some people will use it as an excuse to never lose weight. Some people will know it but use other reasons as excuses not to lose weight. Some people will use that knowledge, they will know the risks, they will make informed decisions when they lose weight- they will know that obesity (not overweight, obesity) is a lifelong disease. (They won't assume like I did that my obesity was cured, they won't assume they can put their scale away because they've kept the weight off for 10 years. They will KNOW it is always lurking. They will know those fat cells are waiting to refill at a rate that defies belief.) And then there is probably the most harmed group, the ones who believe they are fully cured when they lose the weight. The ones who don't believe that obesity is a lifelong thing. If you have ever been obese then you absolutely need to know that you are never cured. Never. You may not have to count everyday, but, you will always need to own a scale and weigh regularly, you will go through periods where you will have to go back to logging. It takes vigilance on at least a weekly basis to keep off the visible signs that you have obesity.
I gained back my 100 lbs because I believed I was cured. Everyone told me I was, I was a success story, I'd kept it off for 10 years. I had it figured out. Just 3 months of not weighing had me back at my original weight.
I didn't share those scientific articles for people to use them as excuses. I shared them so that people would fully understand what fighting obesity means. It is a fight that is NEVER over. As soon as you think it's over, you are in dangerous territory.
But, go ahead, pick all that apart. LOL Love that all of you have your weight loss set to private. You all can read mine, I'm clearly not making excuses, I'm making informed choices.
This time, thanks to science, I know that even when I lose the weight I am not cured. I am never cured. Knowing that is empowering and allows me to make good judgements and you can't steal that from me.
None of the articles you cited state that genetic obesity is a fact. You have yet to establish this and as such any reasoning you have based upon this is fundamentally flawed.
CICO is a fact. Denying it does not make it true.
You weren't cured because you never had a disease. You simply ate more than you were aware of to maintain a desired weight. Your body stored these extra calories as energy reserves. There's no judgement involved other than your own.
This is no different than financial management and balancing a checkbook. There is nothing intuitive to maintaining weight. What is disordered is the notion that somehow people are supposed to know how many calories they need to maintain.
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nutmegoreo wrote: »Disagreeing with you =/= unable to get it. Glad you realized that maintaining healthy weight requires ongoing commitment.
Well said @nutmegoreo and @CSARdiver
I don't understand how someone can think they would be "cured" of the fundamental biological functions that cause every living mammal to store excess calories as body fat or otherwise ignore basic thermodynamics.
If obesity is a disease then I guess every living mammal on the planet has it.
Why are mostly (only?) humans from First World countries, poor and/or uneducated populations -and house pets- showing symptoms of it? I wonder...
When a fat house cat goes feral or semi-feral why does it often become lean and sleek in a matter of months?
Did this "obesity disease" go into remission or did it run out of food and fat stores?
Sharing what you call "scientific articles" when they are little more than funded self-promotion pieces from lobbying / marketing groups is not helping anyone.
Show me a real scientific, peer-reviewed study saying this class of people have x number of these "FAT GENES" and that it means they are somehow doomed to be obese no matter what their TDEE, CI:CO or other factors are and then we will talk.
A headline including "Evidence It’s Genetic" does not get you off the hook.
Do genes "cause" obesity? Duh Genes cause everything about you.
My genes say I will be obese if I eat too much, just like everyone else.
So why do I float between 10% and 15% body fat on average?
Because I use discipline, willpower, self-control, or whatever you choose to call it to make sure I don't eat too much!
If your alleged "special snowflake" genes really say you are 25% more likely than me to eat too much and get fat then I guess it is your responsibility to work at least 25% HARDER to make sure that doesn't happen.
If your alleged "special snowflake" genes really say you are 25% less efficient than I am at nutrient partitioning or that your metabolism is somehow 25% slower than mine then I guess you again need to work at least 25% HARDER to account for it.
Stop making excuses and feeling sorry for yourself.
If you want to compare sob stories or how hard your life is/was then I will take that bet.
In the meantime don't use something like a "survey of 1,509 adults" funded by the American Society for Metabolic and Bariatric Surgery as some sort of "proof" that when you over eat it is not your choice or responsibility.
Also don't bother trying to use it to justify why you do not get sufficient exercise.
The Scientific Method is not up for debate here and I take offense when people try to twist and misuse the word "science" to suit their purposes.
Before you use the term "scientific fact", maybe make sure you know what you are talking about and what the term actually means.
scientific fact: any observation that has been repeatedly confirmed and accepted as true; any scientific observation that has not been refuted
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Oh! Viruses. Adenoviruses?
Hmm... haven't looked at the research in years. Obesity MIGHT be contagious.
I'm off to wash my hands.
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jenniferinfl wrote: »I'm going to try this one more time. None of you will get it, but maybe it will help someone else.
Knowing a scientific fact doesn't mean that you are using it as an excuse. It just means that you know the fact.
For instance, most people accept that 50% of marriages end in divorce is a fact. (Not sure about this crowd, but, it was the least controversial statistic thing I could come up with. ) Most people know this fact. At least, I've heard it enough to assume most people know it.
Knowing that fact results in several different reactions. Some people use it as an excuse to not get married at all. Some people know it, but, have other excuses for never marrying. Some people know it, know the risks and get married anyways. Some people know it, but believe they are special and divorce will never happen to them.
Denying it doesn't make it not true. I posted the scientific studies, you either didn't read them or couldn't comprehend them. That's fine, that isn't my problem.
Now, if we accept that genetic obesity is a thing like SCIENCE says it is, that can lead us to the same type of reactions as the divorce statistic above.
Some people will use it as an excuse to never lose weight. Some people will know it but use other reasons as excuses not to lose weight. Some people will use that knowledge, they will know the risks, they will make informed decisions when they lose weight- they will know that obesity (not overweight, obesity) is a lifelong disease. (They won't assume like I did that my obesity was cured, they won't assume they can put their scale away because they've kept the weight off for 10 years. They will KNOW it is always lurking. They will know those fat cells are waiting to refill at a rate that defies belief.) And then there is probably the most harmed group, the ones who believe they are fully cured when they lose the weight. The ones who don't believe that obesity is a lifelong thing. If you have ever been obese then you absolutely need to know that you are never cured. Never. You may not have to count everyday, but, you will always need to own a scale and weigh regularly, you will go through periods where you will have to go back to logging. It takes vigilance on at least a weekly basis to keep off the visible signs that you have obesity.
I gained back my 100 lbs because I believed I was cured. Everyone told me I was, I was a success story, I'd kept it off for 10 years. I had it figured out. Just 3 months of not weighing had me back at my original weight.
I didn't share those scientific articles for people to use them as excuses. I shared them so that people would fully understand what fighting obesity means. It is a fight that is NEVER over. As soon as you think it's over, you are in dangerous territory.
But, go ahead, pick all that apart. LOL Love that all of you have your weight loss set to private. You all can read mine, I'm clearly not making excuses, I'm making informed choices.
This time, thanks to science, I know that even when I lose the weight I am not cured. I am never cured. Knowing that is empowering and allows me to make good judgements and you can't steal that from me.
"Science". You keep using that word, but I do not think it means what you think it means.
It doesn't mean you get to cherry pick studies, say they are facts, and ignore the large body of evidence that refutes what you are saying. It also does not mean you can make a claim and back it up with a study that does not back your claim. I'm beginning to think, based on your ad hominem attack on the MFP members as a whole and lack of refutation to the very valid points others have made on the limitations of the references you have posted or what the studies actually state/prove compared to what you are trying to say they do, that you do not understand the science or the studies you are referencing.
The default MFP setting is now private for the weight loss ticker. Nice of you to use a character attack though, especially given yours is also hidden and you have no food logged at all.
You want to see weight loss? Here you go. 6+ years since I started my initial loss, and 5-1/2 years at "maintenance". Those gains and loses after the initial weight loss were all planned as part of fitness goals (bulk/cut, and then getting down to running race weight).
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ah nature vs nurture. I think some people gain weight more easily or lose it more easily because of their genetics but to say "I'm 300 lbs because of my DNA" is a total cop out.9
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jenniferinfl wrote: »
Now, if we accept that genetic obesity is a thing like SCIENCE says it is, that can lead us to the same type of reactions as the divorce statistic above.
Except that it's not, and nothing you've cited even suggests that it is.8 -
Google determinants of health - Far more influential. Genetics play a role, but to say that you're fat because your parents are fat would be taking the easy way out.7
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in_the_stars wrote: »
Oh! Viruses. Adenoviruses?
Hmm... haven't looked at the research in years. Obesity MIGHT be contagious.
I'm off to wash my hands.
Filovirus - ancient and one of the reasons this little bug has such a high mortality rate. Seeing the impact firsthand is quite frankly terrifying. This is what steered me into microbiology.1 -
And still not a single rebuttal in the form of an actual scientific study. Not even one... lol My weight loss ticker is not private. I don't log my food here because MFP is a hostile environment; it's been that way for years. I log my food on a safer website. As I've said repeatedly, I fully understand how CICO works, the difference is that some people's calorie out is very different from the average. That's what you seem to be unable to grasp, or, show a scientific study debunking. I'm done with this thread. You guys had all afternoon to find one peer-reviewed study, you shared none.
That says it all for me.2 -
Peer reviewed study of what? That obesity is not 70% genetic? They don't do studies to show that something is NOT true. The lack of studies showing it is true is the proof, for now at least. You made the claim that obesity is mostly genetic but cited a lot of links that didn't actually prove that. Until there is a preponderance of peer reviewed studies showing obesity is genetic, it's not scientifically accurate to say that.18
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jenniferinfl wrote: »And still not a single rebuttal in the form of an actual scientific study. Not even one... lol My weight loss ticker is not private. I don't log my food here because MFP is a hostile environment; it's been that way for years. I log my food on a safer website. As I've said repeatedly, I fully understand how CICO works, the difference is that some people's calorie out is very different from the average. That's what you seem to be unable to grasp, or, show a scientific study debunking. I'm done with this thread. You guys had all afternoon to find one peer-reviewed study, you shared none.
That says it all for me.
We're still waiting for you to provide one legitimate peer-reviewed study showing that it does exist.
You made the assertion, the burden of proof is upon you. That's how debate works. But feel free to go on feeling victimized by your genetics if that's what works for you.10 -
One of our telly doctors here in the UK had the genetic testing done. She has the gene. She's not fat, never has been. Imagine.7
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Here's a discussion of the FTO gene, certain versions of which is supposed to be associated with obesity. It's interesting that even so the average difference is something like 6-7 lbs, and the increased risk of obesity is 1.67, which is not insignificant, but hardly suggests that people are predetermined to be fat or thin, or that it's really just genetic. (I know this is wiki, but it has links, and I reviewed some related sources.)
Note, this is where the obesity is 70% determined by the genes nonsense comes from -- that the risk is 70% higher if you have two copies of the increased risk FTO gene version: http://www.news-medical.net/health/Fat-Mass-and-Obesity-Associated-Gene-(FTO).aspx (this also explains the proposed mechanism, which is not contrary to CICO).
Significantly, it seems to affect the reasons people become overweight (hunger and so on), not the response to reducing calories or the calories needed. Here's a pretty good media discussion: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/sep/20/obesity-gene-weight-loss-gain-study-diet
Here too: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/0713/15072013-How-obesity-gene-triggers-weight-gain-Batterham
And a more scientific discussion: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0925443914000337
Also interesting: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0173560
There's a bunch more -- extremely interesting, but not at all contrary to the idea that higher risk people can find a way to lose and maintain lost weight, and not suggesting that they have to eat crazy low calories.14 -
Conclusion cited in the Guardian article, quoted from "Andrew Hattersley, professor of molecular medicine at the University of Exeter and part of the team that discovered the influence of the FTO genetic variant on weight gain":“Part of [obesity] is environmental, part of it is genetic, part of the genetic component is the FTO gene,” he said. “This isn’t a group that is remarkably different genetically. It is a very minor change and it is only a minor part of their susceptibility.”8
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jenniferinfl wrote: »And still not a single rebuttal in the form of an actual scientific study. Not even one... lol My weight loss ticker is not private. I don't log my food here because MFP is a hostile environment; it's been that way for years. I log my food on a safer website. As I've said repeatedly, I fully understand how CICO works, the difference is that some people's calorie out is very different from the average. That's what you seem to be unable to grasp, or, show a scientific study debunking. I'm done with this thread. You guys had all afternoon to find one peer-reviewed study, you shared none.
That says it all for me.
You have yet to provide evidence supporting your position. The articles you cited do not support the concept of genetic obesity or any manner of set point. As such there is no point to cherry pick studies countering points which have not been proven.
Do you acknowledge any responsibility for creating a hostile environment? Instead of using ad hominem try sticking to the points of the issue rather than launching personal attacks and engaging in passive aggressive/outwardly aggressive behavior.
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^ All of this.We're still waiting for you to provide one legitimate peer-reviewed study showing that it does exist.
You made the assertion, the burden of proof is upon you. That's how debate works. But feel free to go on feeling victimized by your genetics if that's what works for you.
@jenniferinfl
You made an assertion. The burden of proof is on YOU.
If you claim pink unicorns fly around the moon it is not my responsibility to prove they don't.
SCIENCE doesn't work that way and neither does a logical debate.
You have made a claim and the preponderance of evidence says you are WRONG.
Furthermore, it would STILL NOT ACCEPTED AS A SCIENTIFIC FACT unless the majority of researchers take your alleged "proof", independently reproduce the EXPERIMENTS that provided your "proof" and get mostly similar results.
I have yet to see one scientific paper from you or anyone else that substantiates your claims.
If MFP is "hostile" I would posit that it is often due to people with misinformed opinions based on Google searches acting like they are experts arguing with others who pay attention to the REAL SCIENCE AND ACTUALLY PUT IN THE REQUIRED WORK. Instead of making excuses and acting like they are special snowflakes / victims maybe some people should start watching for confirmation bias and stop cherry-picking "data".
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jenniferinfl wrote: »And still not a single rebuttal in the form of an actual scientific study. Not even one... lol My weight loss ticker is not private. I don't log my food here because MFP is a hostile environment; it's been that way for years. I log my food on a safer website. As I've said repeatedly, I fully understand how CICO works, the difference is that some people's calorie out is very different from the average. That's what you seem to be unable to grasp, or, show a scientific study debunking. I'm done with this thread. You guys had all afternoon to find one peer-reviewed study, you shared none.
That says it all for me.
If you don't log your food here, and you think it's a hostile environment, I'm not sure why you are here at all?
12 -
Some people just base their lives around drama so they can get attention.If you don't log your food here, and you think it's a hostile environment, I'm not sure why you are here at all?
Many of them go so far as to say "they don't like all the drama".
I would not be surprised if something like that is the case here.
Why bother working harder on managing your diet and getting sufficient exercise when you could spend all day telling people how much more difficult things are for you {compared to them} instead?
"It isn't my fault that I frequently eat more than my body requires. I am overweight because of my genetics". Boo-hoo.
9 -
"I don't log my food here because it's hostile", but you'll come onto the forum and participate in debate? I have never, NOT ONCE, seen someone attack someone's food diary. I've seen a lot of people commenting on inaccuracies if ASKED but what you're describing, I fear, is as in your head as the genetic obesity thing.
Why are you commenting on a debate thread on a forum you don't feel safe enough to put food entries into a food log? (that you can make private btw)
8 -
Behavior is learned not really genetic. You can take any child and put them in any environment and they will learn behavior that's consistent with that environment.
THIS. Also if were just genetics, then how do people who are "genetically thin" have the same risk of getting obese when changing their diet to one that's much much higher calories?If it were genetics, why do we now have more obesity than 20 years ago?
Granted environment makes a difference. If one celebrates with food or hangs around food all the time, it's not uncommon for them to get overweight or obese. But it one CANNOT get obese if they don't surplus. And that's more a behavioral issue than a genetic issue.
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And then you ask how much of our behavior is genetic. And down the rabbit hole you go.
Although I think environment matters more. And affects the epigenome, too. Which is why I hate seeing parents loading their kids up on low nutrient convenience foods and allowing them to sit around, play video games, and get obese.
It's like saying a kid is spoiled. Were they born that way or RAISED that way? Same with religious beliefs.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
4 -
Stop please. While there are genetic issues with HORMONAL BALANCE, weight gain/loss/maintenance is based on CICO. Even if someone were at a hormonal disadvantage and hard to pay more attention to their calorie intake, people get obese from consuming more than they need to. Consuming food is not a GENETIC issue. It's a BEHAVIORAL issue.jenniferinfl wrote: »
@CSARdiver
Since you cannot find the science in my post, here it is: http://gradworks.umi.com/37/32/3732324.html
And another study: http://www.nature.com/nrg/journal/v6/n3/abs/nrg1556.html
And another study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18842775
And yet another study: http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1400613?rss=searchAndBrowse&#t=article
Obesity is genetic. Science knows that beyond refute. Scientist's KNOW that obesity and thinness are genetic. It's the entire fat-shaming population that wants to plug their ears to it the same as they plug their ears and hum over global warming.
I don't mean that people cannot lose weight, they can, just for a lot of the population it is going to be very, very hard to lose weight and keep it off. It can be done, but, it is not the same as being a person who is genetically thin.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
8 -
Except none of those articles claim genetics as the cause of obesity as fact. Have you ever seen identical twin studies where one weighs much more than the other? Explain how that happens if obesity (or any weight issue) is a fact? Exact genetics between the two, but one is fat while the other isn't.jenniferinfl wrote: »I'm going to try this one more time. None of you will get it, but maybe it will help someone else.
Knowing a scientific fact doesn't mean that you are using it as an excuse. It just means that you know the fact.
For instance, most people accept that 50% of marriages end in divorce is a fact. (Not sure about this crowd, but, it was the least controversial statistic thing I could come up with. ) Most people know this fact. At least, I've heard it enough to assume most people know it.
Knowing that fact results in several different reactions. Some people use it as an excuse to not get married at all. Some people know it, but, have other excuses for never marrying. Some people know it, know the risks and get married anyways. Some people know it, but believe they are special and divorce will never happen to them.
Denying it doesn't make it not true. I posted the scientific studies, you either didn't read them or couldn't comprehend them. That's fine, that isn't my problem.
Now, if we accept that genetic obesity is a thing like SCIENCE says it is, that can lead us to the same type of reactions as the divorce statistic above.
Some people will use it as an excuse to never lose weight. Some people will know it but use other reasons as excuses not to lose weight. Some people will use that knowledge, they will know the risks, they will make informed decisions when they lose weight- they will know that obesity (not overweight, obesity) is a lifelong disease. (They won't assume like I did that my obesity was cured, they won't assume they can put their scale away because they've kept the weight off for 10 years. They will KNOW it is always lurking. They will know those fat cells are waiting to refill at a rate that defies belief.) And then there is probably the most harmed group, the ones who believe they are fully cured when they lose the weight. The ones who don't believe that obesity is a lifelong thing. If you have ever been obese then you absolutely need to know that you are never cured. Never. You may not have to count everyday, but, you will always need to own a scale and weigh regularly, you will go through periods where you will have to go back to logging. It takes vigilance on at least a weekly basis to keep off the visible signs that you have obesity.
I gained back my 100 lbs because I believed I was cured. Everyone told me I was, I was a success story, I'd kept it off for 10 years. I had it figured out. Just 3 months of not weighing had me back at my original weight.
I didn't share those scientific articles for people to use them as excuses. I shared them so that people would fully understand what fighting obesity means. It is a fight that is NEVER over. As soon as you think it's over, you are in dangerous territory.
But, go ahead, pick all that apart. LOL Love that all of you have your weight loss set to private. You all can read mine, I'm clearly not making excuses, I'm making informed choices.
This time, thanks to science, I know that even when I lose the weight I am not cured. I am never cured. Knowing that is empowering and allows me to make good judgements and you can't steal that from me.
What's happening here is that you're not really understanding the actual studies. Obesity is debated on whether or not disease. There is no definitive answer.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
6 -
jenniferinfl wrote: »And still not a single rebuttal in the form of an actual scientific study. Not even one... lol My weight loss ticker is not private. I don't log my food here because MFP is a hostile environment; it's been that way for years. I log my food on a safer website. As I've said repeatedly, I fully understand how CICO works, the difference is that some people's calorie out is very different from the average. That's what you seem to be unable to grasp, or, show a scientific study debunking. I'm done with this thread. You guys had all afternoon to find one peer-reviewed study, you shared none.
That says it all for me.
If your profile is private, your ticker is not viewable unless you post it somewhere.
MFP is hostile, so you don't log your food here which requires zero social interaction, but you do come onto the public forums, and the Debate Forum of all places... this makes no sense.
Nobody is going to waste their time posting studies when you have completely ignored any rebuttals to the studies you posted where folks have already pointed out the limitations of the "studies" (some of links which were just news reports) and what they actually prove versus what you seem to claim they do, showing you do not under the subject matter. Instead, you have continued with ad hominem attacks on the community here (some of them VERY well educated on study design and the subjects being studied). It's like playing chess with a pigeon.
At this point, I can only assume you are on here to troll and antagonize other members.9
This discussion has been closed.
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