Ethics Question..
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UncleGorilla wrote: »Hmm. What are these "friends" of which you speak? I'm not familiar with that term.
They are people who you are nice to, and who like you and aren't afraid of you. You, know...nice? As in, not mean? I know you know this one, dig deep.
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I wouldn't want someone telling me this type of information because I should be able to pretty much figure it out on my own and someone else telling me would make me feel even more like an idiot than just finding it out for myself.
I disagree with this. My pride isn't so delicate that I'd get my feelings hurt if someone told me where a puzzle piece goes instead of letting my figure it out. That's just me, though. Friends are there to help one another, and it's a sign of maturity and strength to be able to accept that help with grace.0 -
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UncleGorilla wrote: »And I'm not questioning ignorance over pain. Nor the choices conveyed between individuals. I'm questioning motivation. Specifically the motivation of the one doing the "informing."
In it's simplest form, I'm questioning one's mindset of...
"I feel it's right to tell someone I care about some awful, terrible news...
that which I only anecdotally witnessed...
and don't know to actually be factual nor true...
which will certainly ruin their life...
because I'm a good person, and it's the right thing to do..."
Sure.
Ok then.
I would never fool myself by telling myself "it's the right thing to do".
My best friend's husband is (almost certainly) boinking someone NOT his wife, I think the concept of "the right thing to do" is long out the window. At this point it boils down to what you feel the best friend would want you to do, and act accordingly.0 -
AllOutof_Bubblegum wrote: »UncleGorilla wrote: »Missjulesdid wrote: »I don't give a fat rat's *kitten* if adultery is a sin or not. I'm not religious. And it has NOTHING to do with riding a moral high horse. If I witnessed my best friend's, or sister's partner in such a situation, I'd let my friend/sister know exactly what I saw. How they want to deal with the partner is up to them. Maybe he has a reason for being in the hotel room.. maybe nothing was going on... maybe they have an arrangement.. I don't know and I don't care... That's something for my BEST friend/sister to figure out I'd just give them the information and let them figure it out supporting them if my support is wanted/needed.
If it was just an acquaintance or a casual friend then no, I'd keep my mouth shut.
So, to be clear...
You'd give them your subjective observations, with no tangible evidence, that will likely be devastating to their entire existence... then step-back after lighting that fuse and say, "Have fun dealing with that horrible, terrible, awful thing I just told you about, but offered no proof. Just know... I care, and I'm here for you."
That's kinda like shooting them in the chest, then sayin "I'm here... to fill the void... that I just created in your chest, with that shotgun someone else manufactured."
You're basically a saint.
Have you considered writing Christmas cards for Hallmark as a career choice?
Interesting thoughts, but this is all going by the assumption that everyone would prefer ignorance over pain.
My in-laws hate me. They talk mad trash about me, accuse me of dominating and pushing my husband around, and even tried to sabotage my engagement. I had no idea. They said they loved me, hugged me, "invited" me into the family, and made me feel welcome.
Six months after the wedding the truth came out, and I am still not over the feelings of betrayal. This was four years ago. If they had said straight from the beginning, "We have reservations about you marrying our son, we don't really like you, and we'd like you to break up with him." it would have stung, but shortly after I told them to jump off a cliff, we could have gotten to the bottom of what was wrong, and potentially come to a peaceful resolution.
As it stands, they are not welcome in our home and they are not privy to any contact, communication, or pictures of our son, their grandson, (husband's decision) for what they did to me and how badly they hurt me with their lies. The truth would have hurt for a while, but their lies have ruined lives.
It all depends on what the best friend values more: ignorant bliss, or the truth ant whatever cost. A true best friend would know which one the other prefers.
I'd hazard a guess that the animosity between you and the in-laws probably wouldn't have gone away just because they were up front with you about their feelings and it doesn't sound like any of you are the forgiving type. Just saying.0 -
Alatariel75 wrote: »I'd confront the partner and give them the chance to tell my friend/relative and if they refused or didn't within a reasonable period (I'm talking a few hours), I'd tell my friend/relative. Been there, done that.
This is what I would do as well.
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AllOutof_Bubblegum wrote: »UncleGorilla wrote: »Missjulesdid wrote: »I don't give a fat rat's *kitten* if adultery is a sin or not. I'm not religious. And it has NOTHING to do with riding a moral high horse. If I witnessed my best friend's, or sister's partner in such a situation, I'd let my friend/sister know exactly what I saw. How they want to deal with the partner is up to them. Maybe he has a reason for being in the hotel room.. maybe nothing was going on... maybe they have an arrangement.. I don't know and I don't care... That's something for my BEST friend/sister to figure out I'd just give them the information and let them figure it out supporting them if my support is wanted/needed.
If it was just an acquaintance or a casual friend then no, I'd keep my mouth shut.
So, to be clear...
You'd give them your subjective observations, with no tangible evidence, that will likely be devastating to their entire existence... then step-back after lighting that fuse and say, "Have fun dealing with that horrible, terrible, awful thing I just told you about, but offered no proof. Just know... I care, and I'm here for you."
That's kinda like shooting them in the chest, then sayin "I'm here... to fill the void... that I just created in your chest, with that shotgun someone else manufactured."
You're basically a saint.
Have you considered writing Christmas cards for Hallmark as a career choice?
Interesting thoughts, but this is all going by the assumption that everyone would prefer ignorance over pain.
My in-laws hate me. They talk mad trash about me, accuse me of dominating and pushing my husband around, and even tried to sabotage my engagement. I had no idea. They said they loved me, hugged me, "invited" me into the family, and made me feel welcome.
Six months after the wedding the truth came out, and I am still not over the feelings of betrayal. This was four years ago. If they had said straight from the beginning, "We have reservations about you marrying our son, we don't really like you, and we'd like you to break up with him." it would have stung, but shortly after I told them to jump off a cliff, we could have gotten to the bottom of what was wrong, and potentially come to a peaceful resolution.
As it stands, they are not welcome in our home and they are not privy to any contact, communication, or pictures of our son, their grandson, (husband's decision) for what they did to me and how badly they hurt me with their lies. The truth would have hurt for a while, but their lies have ruined lives.
It all depends on what the best friend values more: ignorant bliss, or the truth ant whatever cost. A true best friend would know which one the other prefers.
I'd hazard a guess that the animosity between you and the in-laws probably wouldn't have gone away just because they were up front with you about their feelings and it doesn't sound like any of you are the forgiving type. Just saying.
You would be wrong, then. I'm a big girl, I can handle the truth. Call me a rhymes-with-stunt, go ahead, I promise I'll be fine. I can't stand being lied to. I can certainly forgive ( and have done so many, many times), if I feel like I can trust the person again. If you've lied to me, I can't trust you.
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Depends on what kind of pictures I could get. If I can't get a decent series with obvious cheating and clear faces I am keeping my mouth shut. No one ever believes the person who tells them their partner is going around behind their back.
Even with pictures I'd have a hard time justifying saying anything. For one thing, I don't necessarily know their relationship status. There are plenty of poly and open-relationship couples who don't tell their friends and family. Handing over pictures of John's affair when really Susan is the third in their triad is just awkward. If I felt I absolutely had to say something (for instance if I knew the couple was trying for a baby and therefore at a higher risk for STI transmission) I'd probably anonymously mail the pictures and hope for the best. Person still knows what's going on, but no one's transferring their anger and hurt onto me.0 -
UncleGorilla wrote: »I also find it amusing the "righteousness" exuded from women, expressing their "concern" to their female friends.
Let screw with your minds for a second.
Statistically, women cheat on men AS MUCH as men cheat on women.
Thus, is the same level of "concern and love" conveyed toward these same female friends if THEY'RE the ones doing the cheating? As in, it's your BFF (that you care so deeply for) doing the cheating. Are we running to tell her husband? I mean, he deserves to know, right?
Hmm?
What?
I missed what you were thinking, as you sat back and enveloped yourself in stanch silence.
Wait, I'm just getting warmed-up.
There are multiple studies that establish the fact that approximately 37% of married men... cheat... WITH OTHER MEN.
What about those BFF's?
I mean, you're doing "God's work" by bringing to light that your BFF's husband is not only cheating, but... that he also prefers man-meat over her.
Wow.
It's basically the same as giving her a gift certificate for a four-hour, deep tissue massage.
But wait... I'm not quite done ruining your day.
What about the kids?
You know, your BFF's children, who are completely innocent in all of their parent's activities who are going to be emotionally devastated by you "doing the right thing?"
No applause needed.
Be sure to tip your waitresses.
God, you're sick. I'll bite, though.
In the case of the BFF cheating, I'd express my personal disapproval of the cheating, but leave it up to her to come clean. Maybe it's a slight double standard, but I'm not BFFs with her husband, so what happens to him is of less concern to me than than my best friend.
The children scenario is a little dicier. To me, It would probably depend on the age of the child and the partners involved, and the nature of their relationship. For now, I'll just bank on the surety that no one in my life is that...let's say depraved. So my chances of being put in a scenario like this are pretty slim.0 -
UncleGorilla wrote: »I also find it amusing the "righteousness" exuded from women, expressing their "concern" to their female friends.
Let screw with your minds for a second.
Statistically, women cheat on men AS MUCH as men cheat on women.
Thus, is the same level of "concern and love" conveyed toward these same female friends if THEY'RE the ones doing the cheating? As in, it's your BFF (that you care so deeply for) doing the cheating. Are we running to tell her husband? I mean, he deserves to know, right?
Hmm?
What?
I missed what you were thinking, as you sat back and enveloped yourself in stanch silence.
Wait, I'm just getting warmed-up.
There are multiple studies that establish the fact that approximately 37% of married men... cheat... WITH OTHER MEN.
What about those BFF's?
I mean, you're doing "God's work" by bringing to light that your BFF's husband is not only cheating, but... that he also prefers man-meat over her.
Wow.
It's basically the same as giving her a gift certificate for a four-hour, deep tissue massage.
But wait... I'm not quite done ruining your day.
What about the kids?
You know, your BFF's children, who are completely innocent in all of their parent's activities who are going to be emotionally devastated by you "doing the right thing?"
No applause needed.
Be sure to tip your waitresses.
[quote)
Not agreening nor disagreening with this post (Not really sure what I would do.) But as for your part about the kids, I think it might be worse for the cheating spouse to be bringing diseases home? Or giving something life threatening to their mother and leaving the children without both parents. Just a thought0 -
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UncleGorilla wrote: »Now, your POV obviously was just a POV you were sharing, but I felt the need to reply, as some of us aren't simply gossip Mongers, but people who genuinely love our family (and we consider our friends our family), and believe this IS the right thing to do. That turning a blind eye, is a slap in the face to someone you love.
You'd destroy a relationship based entirely on your subjective observation, with no proof, because you genuinely love the person that you're destroying with the information... 'Cause you've unilaterally determined it's "the right thing to do."
The love conveyed there, brings a tear to the eye.
Offers you up a glass of wine to go with that humble pie that you seem to be so fond of eating. You'd first, have to know the relationship that I have with my best friend. If she found out I had seen Steve coming out of a hotel room with a woman, REGARDLESS of the circumstances, she'd be beyond pissed at me, and rightfully so. Would it destroy their relationship if nothing happened? Absolutely not. Even if something DID happen, would it destroy the relationship? I can't say that. It's up her and Steve to determine if what they have is worth salvaging. Regardless, Monger and I have discussed many things over the years, and we've discussed what's right for us. It might not be "your" ideal definition of right, then again, most of the things I do or support seems to be against what society deems as "right".
Tell me, did you not get enough hugs as a child? Who hurt you? We can talk about this. Maybe you never had a best friend. Maybe you never had any friends. It's not too late, you know.
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UncleGorilla wrote: »I also find it amusing the "righteousness" exuded from women, expressing their "concern" to their female friends.
Allow me to screw with your minds for a second.
Statistically, women cheat on men AS MUCH as men cheat on women.
Thus, is the same level of "concern and love" conveyed toward these same female friends if THEY'RE the ones doing the cheating? As in, it's your BFF (that you care so deeply for) doing the cheating. Are we running to tell her husband? I mean, he deserves to know, right?
Hmm?
What?
I missed what you were thinking, as you sat back and enveloped yourself in stanch silence.
Wait, I'm just getting warmed-up.
There are multiple studies that establish the fact that approximately 37% of married men... cheat... WITH OTHER MEN.
What about those BFF's?
I mean, you're doing "God's work" by bringing to light that your BFF's husband is not only cheating, but... that he also prefers man-meat over her.
Wow.
It's basically the same as giving her a gift certificate for a four-hour, deep tissue massage.
But wait... I'm not quite done ruining your day.
What about the kids?
You know, your BFF's children, who are completely innocent in all of their parent's activities who are going to be emotionally devastated by you "doing the right thing?"
No applause needed.
Be sure to tip your waitresses.
And I'm also not going to tell you this isn't a situation I haven't had to deal with, either. I will NOT mention names of or who was involved. I did NOT know of this infidelity until told about it by the person's husband, and yeah, the children DID suffer. I was left to pick up the pieces of the mess she'd made, and care for these children, because I loved them dearly. NOT because this was a situation of, "We're splitting up/separating/getting a divorce" and the two people despite being hurt worked things out, one (the cheating party) went wild (apparently going through a mid-life crisis) and forgot about their children. Putting their lover first in their life, when they did have their children, putting them in situations that were not wise, and hurt was caused all around in the family.
So, here's your tip, don't eat the yellow snow. We know about the kids. We've seen the heartbreak when their mom isn't at their sporting events. We've seen them cry because they don't understand why she made the decision she made, but you know, we aren't the ones who made that decision. We're just the ones who pick up the mess that's been made after the fact.
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I would not confront him at all. I'd go straight to her and let her know what I saw and tell her you've been worried about telling her but thought about it and you'd want to know if it was happening to you. If you confront him first then he has time to make up a lie. To bad you didn't snap a photo of said interaction for proof cause she may believe him more than you. You may lose a friend over it, so you have to think if it's going to be worth it to tell on him0
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I would feel trulycstupid if i came to a friend/sibling with what i thought was a smoking gun only to be told..."oh we just separated/divorced". Or that they've decidedvon open marriage for reasons that are none of my business for a length of time that is also none of my business.
If it were my child being apparently cheated on my son is an adult and we've actually encountered similar circumstances and ate quite open. He is also allowed to live his lifw as he pleases and condemn, forgive, make pacts as he sees fit. It would be harder to keep this from him if i knew his wishes were for loyalty so I hope I'd never be presented with this precise dilemma. Probably won't because I'm 1) not nosy 2)not judgy 3) oblivious to motels on my path and 4) nearsighted anyways.
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*are quite open0
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It would really depend on the circumstances. It's between them to handle on their own, I wouldn't want to get involved. But, if I felt it was important to tell then I would. Like if my friend was worried about it, then I couldn't keep that from her. But, still might be better to talk to the person I saw directly. The thing is there may be circumstances I don't understand. But, if the person is hurting my friend (like if it's an abusive relationship) I would be there to help her.0
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UncleGorilla wrote: »
Now... settle 5 to 8 of those lawsuits a week for as many years. Then come back and let me know if your opinion has changed. I'll skip ahead. It will.So, here's your tip, don't eat the yellow snow. We know about the kids. We've seen the heartbreak when their mom isn't at their sporting events. We've seen them cry because they don't understand why she made the decision she made, but you know, we aren't the ones who made that decision. We're just the ones who pick up the mess that's been made after the fact.
Exponentially more damage, harm, pain and anguish are caused by those who move to justify their actions, than those who actually effectuate the underlying "naughty" acts in the first place.
As you noted, my ego is huge. I own it. And I'm very aware of it.
What never ceases to amaze me are those who are completely oblivious to their own delusions of grandeur, when moving to "do what [they think] is right."
In short... You "thinking" you're acting on behalf of "righteousness," does not make it true. In fact, your "act of self-proclaimed righteousness" may do more damage and have more negative collateral effect... than you could ever imagine.
You are referencing one, maybe two personal accounts, from which you have a biased vantage.
I am speaking from experience with thousands of cases, from which I was a neutral, charged with settling the conflict.
And believe me when I tell you, the whistle-blower is NEVER remembered, nor favored, as a "hero," once the dust has settled.
I'm not sure where you practice law, but I'd stand to wager it's not in this area. Well, that's another story in and of itself. There isn't a lot of rational thought in this area. I'd actually like to invite you come down here and practice law. Settle 5 to 8 lawsuits in this area, of the like, period, and let me know what you think. It's a WHOLE different world. It's a kind of crazy you can't even begin to fathom. Would I dare say that oh at least 3 of those would be Jerry Springer worthy? Same with child custody cases?
How about this one for rational? If you called your child's school, and didn't get the answers you wanted from the teacher, or the principle, would your next call be to Fox News? Seriously. A special kind of crazy. Common sense, it's not for everyone.
You may be practicing law where people actually do think logically, or perhaps with even more emotion, and are simply unforgiving. When presented with information, they go all to hell, and that's it for them. I can't say, all I can say, is in this area, we do have some really great people, and we've got some that are a special kind of crazy, and unfortunately, the crazy are outnumbering the sane more and more.
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None of my business...I have my own problems and own *kitten*...I don't need to add other people's *kitten* to my life.0
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totaldetermination wrote: »You see your best friend's partner coming out of a hotel room with someone else (ie not your best friend). Its very obvious something has gone on between them - they're all over each other even as they leave the room. They didn't see you.
Do you say anything to anyone about it ? I would already know if they have an open relationship or poly dynamic. If they were open/poly, I'd mention it. If they were monogomous, I'd ask her if they'd broken up or opened the relationship and have a mature conversation with her regarding what I *thought* I saw.
What if it was your sibling / parent or child who's partner came out of the room ? I don't have siblings. I don't have a child. If it was my only living parent, I'd laugh my butt off and tell my boyfriend for giggles.
If your best friend saw your partner coming out of a hotel room with someone else, what would you want your best friend to do ? I would want my best friend to talk to both of us about it in a mature way.
If your 3 answers are different, why is that ? My answers are different due to the feelings I have toward my only living parent.
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UncleGorilla wrote: »The true question is... What does reporting what you see to anyone prove, and/or solve?
In reality, one has absolutely no idea what occurred in that room. It's likely they had sex, but the witness doesn't know that for sure, unless that person was watching through the window... and that beckons an entire new set of ethical and legal questions.
My statement above will likely lead to a, "But you have a moral obligation to your friend, etc etc.." Why? Who died and made me the Morality Police?
Most people who "tattle on" other people's behavior mask their true intentions, albeit subconsciously most of the time.
They're not reporting these details to "help their friends." They're propagating gossip in an effort to appear "noble" whilst condemning another party and "putting them in their place."
It's crap.
"But Uncle Gorilla, adultery is a sin..." (Gotta love the Bible-Beaters)
A. Wooptie-doo
B. Let's take the ever present-Bible-defense head-on...
Adultery is a sin. So is Gossip. In fact, "gossip" is referenced as a mortal sin twenty-seven (27) times throughout the Bible. (I'm not a big religious guy. I'm a lawyer, and I love using the other side's facts against them. )
Thus, for those riding your moral high-horse... while you're holding the Bible and dialing your friends to "report the details," you might want to pickup a few rocks while you're at it. Your glass house may be a bit stuffy.
Awww...did you have fun knocking down all those straw men?
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