Guide to making claims based on research
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Need2Exerc1se wrote: »SingRunTing wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »WalkingAlong wrote: »I don't expect MFP threads to be the equivalent of a PHD dissertation or something..but if you are going to try and link a certain diet to reduced instances of cancer, then be prepared to back it up with some kind of peer reviewed study that you have actually read...
And if you've read it in books? You go back to the library and get the books, find the passages that say it (even if the three books very prominently claim it throughout), find the citations the books used, find them online to link to or re-type all the written citations, and post them here for opponents to then tear apart as invalid?
Then you're expected to defend the original researchers and the authors, who are doctors or respected experts in their fields, from the "MFP peer review panel" of English 101 graduates and other self-appointed experts?
Good luck with that.
If the studies support your assertion, why would it be torn apart as invalid?
It happens all the time on these forums. Peer reviewed studies deemed 'invalid' or 'biased' or 'flawed' or the assertion that another study 'debunked' this one, etc. The fact that experienced, trained scientists performed and reviewed the study seemingly means nothing. A nice set of abs and the ability to type trumps all, even if you provide no proof that the abs are yours.
I've been trying to stay out of this, but I can't anymore.
A lot of studies ARE flawed. That's the reality of science. They do their best to test a hypothesis, but there are real world constraints that make studies have flaws. (This is especially true in weight loss studies, because they are either long term and based on self-reporting, or they isolate the study participants and they are short term.) That's why new theories are tested many times in many different ways before they are accepted as true. Each individual study doesn't mean much, it's the collective that matters. ...
My point wasn't whether some studies are flawed. It was that valid studies are routinely and commonly dismissed by MFP members who would like them to be flawed because it doesn't back up whatever diet doctrine they are currently infatuated with.
A peer reviewed and published study is rarely flawed. All studies have limitations. ALL of them. Those are usually pointed out in the study itself and/or in the reviews. That is not the same as flawed. Those studies that are flawed are usually trounced by other scientists pretty quickly.
But that's where you are wrong. They are ALL flawed. There is no such thing as a perfect study. Pointing out the flaws is a necessary part of understanding the study. That was my point.0 -
SingRunTing wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »SingRunTing wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »WalkingAlong wrote: »I don't expect MFP threads to be the equivalent of a PHD dissertation or something..but if you are going to try and link a certain diet to reduced instances of cancer, then be prepared to back it up with some kind of peer reviewed study that you have actually read...
And if you've read it in books? You go back to the library and get the books, find the passages that say it (even if the three books very prominently claim it throughout), find the citations the books used, find them online to link to or re-type all the written citations, and post them here for opponents to then tear apart as invalid?
Then you're expected to defend the original researchers and the authors, who are doctors or respected experts in their fields, from the "MFP peer review panel" of English 101 graduates and other self-appointed experts?
Good luck with that.
If the studies support your assertion, why would it be torn apart as invalid?
It happens all the time on these forums. Peer reviewed studies deemed 'invalid' or 'biased' or 'flawed' or the assertion that another study 'debunked' this one, etc. The fact that experienced, trained scientists performed and reviewed the study seemingly means nothing. A nice set of abs and the ability to type trumps all, even if you provide no proof that the abs are yours.
I've been trying to stay out of this, but I can't anymore.
A lot of studies ARE flawed. That's the reality of science. They do their best to test a hypothesis, but there are real world constraints that make studies have flaws. (This is especially true in weight loss studies, because they are either long term and based on self-reporting, or they isolate the study participants and they are short term.) That's why new theories are tested many times in many different ways before they are accepted as true. Each individual study doesn't mean much, it's the collective that matters. ...
My point wasn't whether some studies are flawed. It was that valid studies are routinely and commonly dismissed by MFP members who would like them to be flawed because it doesn't back up whatever diet doctrine they are currently infatuated with.
A peer reviewed and published study is rarely flawed. All studies have limitations. ALL of them. Those are usually pointed out in the study itself and/or in the reviews. That is not the same as flawed. Those studies that are flawed are usually trounced by other scientists pretty quickly.
But that's where you are wrong. They are ALL flawed. There is no such thing as a perfect study. Pointing out the flaws is a necessary part of understanding the study. That was my point.
This is true. When I studied research methods about a third of the time was learning to analyse and criticise existing studies. There is nothing wrong with doing that, and blind faith in something because it is peer reviewed- particularly when the conclusions claimed do not necessarily follow from the good evidence is not a bad thing. Lies, damn lies, and statistics.0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »SingRunTing wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »WalkingAlong wrote: »I don't expect MFP threads to be the equivalent of a PHD dissertation or something..but if you are going to try and link a certain diet to reduced instances of cancer, then be prepared to back it up with some kind of peer reviewed study that you have actually read...
And if you've read it in books? You go back to the library and get the books, find the passages that say it (even if the three books very prominently claim it throughout), find the citations the books used, find them online to link to or re-type all the written citations, and post them here for opponents to then tear apart as invalid?
Then you're expected to defend the original researchers and the authors, who are doctors or respected experts in their fields, from the "MFP peer review panel" of English 101 graduates and other self-appointed experts?
Good luck with that.
If the studies support your assertion, why would it be torn apart as invalid?
It happens all the time on these forums. Peer reviewed studies deemed 'invalid' or 'biased' or 'flawed' or the assertion that another study 'debunked' this one, etc. The fact that experienced, trained scientists performed and reviewed the study seemingly means nothing. A nice set of abs and the ability to type trumps all, even if you provide no proof that the abs are yours.
I've been trying to stay out of this, but I can't anymore.
A lot of studies ARE flawed. That's the reality of science. They do their best to test a hypothesis, but there are real world constraints that make studies have flaws. (This is especially true in weight loss studies, because they are either long term and based on self-reporting, or they isolate the study participants and they are short term.) That's why new theories are tested many times in many different ways before they are accepted as true. Each individual study doesn't mean much, it's the collective that matters. ...
My point wasn't whether some studies are flawed. It was that valid studies are routinely and commonly dismissed by MFP members who would like them to be flawed because it doesn't back up whatever diet doctrine they are currently infatuated with.
A peer reviewed and published study is rarely flawed. All studies have limitations. ALL of them. Those are usually pointed out in the study itself and/or in the reviews. That is not the same as flawed. Those studies that are flawed are usually trounced by other scientists pretty quickly.
Yes and no. The statistical validity of many field studies for marine species often get poo pooed by scientists in indirectly related fields because of low sample sizes etc. This questioning is perfectly valid. BUT, if you work in that particular field you also understand the limitations in place and that sometimes, it's worth publishing what you've found, even if the statistics aren't really there. But EVERYBODY discussing those findings has to do so understanding both the limitations of the study and the limitations of the field.
This same principle has to be applied to most if not all studies conducted involving interpretation of results being applied to the human populace. The studies are almost always going to be inherently flawed because of unavoidable complications in the field itself. Which means that the conclusions are almost always *highly* debatable. So yea, people gonna argue bout it.0 -
SingRunTing wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »SingRunTing wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »WalkingAlong wrote: »I don't expect MFP threads to be the equivalent of a PHD dissertation or something..but if you are going to try and link a certain diet to reduced instances of cancer, then be prepared to back it up with some kind of peer reviewed study that you have actually read...
And if you've read it in books? You go back to the library and get the books, find the passages that say it (even if the three books very prominently claim it throughout), find the citations the books used, find them online to link to or re-type all the written citations, and post them here for opponents to then tear apart as invalid?
Then you're expected to defend the original researchers and the authors, who are doctors or respected experts in their fields, from the "MFP peer review panel" of English 101 graduates and other self-appointed experts?
Good luck with that.
If the studies support your assertion, why would it be torn apart as invalid?
It happens all the time on these forums. Peer reviewed studies deemed 'invalid' or 'biased' or 'flawed' or the assertion that another study 'debunked' this one, etc. The fact that experienced, trained scientists performed and reviewed the study seemingly means nothing. A nice set of abs and the ability to type trumps all, even if you provide no proof that the abs are yours.
I've been trying to stay out of this, but I can't anymore.
A lot of studies ARE flawed. That's the reality of science. They do their best to test a hypothesis, but there are real world constraints that make studies have flaws. (This is especially true in weight loss studies, because they are either long term and based on self-reporting, or they isolate the study participants and they are short term.) That's why new theories are tested many times in many different ways before they are accepted as true. Each individual study doesn't mean much, it's the collective that matters. ...
My point wasn't whether some studies are flawed. It was that valid studies are routinely and commonly dismissed by MFP members who would like them to be flawed because it doesn't back up whatever diet doctrine they are currently infatuated with.
A peer reviewed and published study is rarely flawed. All studies have limitations. ALL of them. Those are usually pointed out in the study itself and/or in the reviews. That is not the same as flawed. Those studies that are flawed are usually trounced by other scientists pretty quickly.
But that's where you are wrong. They are ALL flawed. There is no such thing as a perfect study. Pointing out the flaws is a necessary part of understanding the study. That was my point.
Um, okay. So we disagree on the use of the term flawed. I don't see known and usually noted limitations, as "flaws". It's just the nature of the game.
But since all studies are flawed and worthy of derision, the OP seems a pretty big waste of time.0 -
Papers aren't fool-proof. E.g. that one time this scientist published like, hundreds of FALSE papers that were published in proper journals. io9.com/5855733/psychologist-admits-to-faking-dozens-of-scientific-studies and I believe something similar just came out about this topic as well. Wait, the hundreds migh be the recent scandal, not the 2011 one.Need2Exerc1se wrote: »SingRunTing wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »WalkingAlong wrote: »I don't expect MFP threads to be the equivalent of a PHD dissertation or something..but if you are going to try and link a certain diet to reduced instances of cancer, then be prepared to back it up with some kind of peer reviewed study that you have actually read...
And if you've read it in books? You go back to the library and get the books, find the passages that say it (even if the three books very prominently claim it throughout), find the citations the books used, find them online to link to or re-type all the written citations, and post them here for opponents to then tear apart as invalid?
Then you're expected to defend the original researchers and the authors, who are doctors or respected experts in their fields, from the "MFP peer review panel" of English 101 graduates and other self-appointed experts?
Good luck with that.
If the studies support your assertion, why would it be torn apart as invalid?
It happens all the time on these forums. Peer reviewed studies deemed 'invalid' or 'biased' or 'flawed' or the assertion that another study 'debunked' this one, etc. The fact that experienced, trained scientists performed and reviewed the study seemingly means nothing. A nice set of abs and the ability to type trumps all, even if you provide no proof that the abs are yours.
I've been trying to stay out of this, but I can't anymore.
A lot of studies ARE flawed. That's the reality of science. They do their best to test a hypothesis, but there are real world constraints that make studies have flaws. (This is especially true in weight loss studies, because they are either long term and based on self-reporting, or they isolate the study participants and they are short term.) That's why new theories are tested many times in many different ways before they are accepted as true. Each individual study doesn't mean much, it's the collective that matters. ...
My point wasn't whether some studies are flawed. It was that valid studies are routinely and commonly dismissed by MFP members who would like them to be flawed because it doesn't back up whatever diet doctrine they are currently infatuated with.
A peer reviewed and published study is rarely flawed. All studies have limitations. ALL of them. Those are usually pointed out in the study itself and/or in the reviews. That is not the same as flawed. Those studies that are flawed are usually trounced by other scientists pretty quickly.
Generally from waht I've seen, when a source gets dismissed it's because it does not at all pertain to the original claim the OP made.0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »
But since all studies are flawed and worthy of derision, the OP seems a pretty big waste of time.
Zing!
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Need2Exerc1se wrote: »SingRunTing wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »SingRunTing wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »WalkingAlong wrote: »I don't expect MFP threads to be the equivalent of a PHD dissertation or something..but if you are going to try and link a certain diet to reduced instances of cancer, then be prepared to back it up with some kind of peer reviewed study that you have actually read...
And if you've read it in books? You go back to the library and get the books, find the passages that say it (even if the three books very prominently claim it throughout), find the citations the books used, find them online to link to or re-type all the written citations, and post them here for opponents to then tear apart as invalid?
Then you're expected to defend the original researchers and the authors, who are doctors or respected experts in their fields, from the "MFP peer review panel" of English 101 graduates and other self-appointed experts?
Good luck with that.
If the studies support your assertion, why would it be torn apart as invalid?
It happens all the time on these forums. Peer reviewed studies deemed 'invalid' or 'biased' or 'flawed' or the assertion that another study 'debunked' this one, etc. The fact that experienced, trained scientists performed and reviewed the study seemingly means nothing. A nice set of abs and the ability to type trumps all, even if you provide no proof that the abs are yours.
I've been trying to stay out of this, but I can't anymore.
A lot of studies ARE flawed. That's the reality of science. They do their best to test a hypothesis, but there are real world constraints that make studies have flaws. (This is especially true in weight loss studies, because they are either long term and based on self-reporting, or they isolate the study participants and they are short term.) That's why new theories are tested many times in many different ways before they are accepted as true. Each individual study doesn't mean much, it's the collective that matters. ...
My point wasn't whether some studies are flawed. It was that valid studies are routinely and commonly dismissed by MFP members who would like them to be flawed because it doesn't back up whatever diet doctrine they are currently infatuated with.
A peer reviewed and published study is rarely flawed. All studies have limitations. ALL of them. Those are usually pointed out in the study itself and/or in the reviews. That is not the same as flawed. Those studies that are flawed are usually trounced by other scientists pretty quickly.
But that's where you are wrong. They are ALL flawed. There is no such thing as a perfect study. Pointing out the flaws is a necessary part of understanding the study. That was my point.
Um, okay. So we disagree on the use of the term flawed. I don't see known and usually noted limitations, as "flaws". It's just the nature of the game.
But since all studies are flawed and worthy of derision, the OP seems a pretty big waste of time.
THe point is not to post studies that are 100% without limitations/flaws. It's about knowing that if you make a scientific claim, then give us the resource you got that information from so people can check it out, discuss why the results might be good or might not be good, and to further improve people's knowledge about a topic.0 -
Berated? Holy *kitten*, I thought this was supposed to be fun
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Need2Exerc1se wrote: »SingRunTing wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »SingRunTing wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »WalkingAlong wrote: »I don't expect MFP threads to be the equivalent of a PHD dissertation or something..but if you are going to try and link a certain diet to reduced instances of cancer, then be prepared to back it up with some kind of peer reviewed study that you have actually read...
And if you've read it in books? You go back to the library and get the books, find the passages that say it (even if the three books very prominently claim it throughout), find the citations the books used, find them online to link to or re-type all the written citations, and post them here for opponents to then tear apart as invalid?
Then you're expected to defend the original researchers and the authors, who are doctors or respected experts in their fields, from the "MFP peer review panel" of English 101 graduates and other self-appointed experts?
Good luck with that.
If the studies support your assertion, why would it be torn apart as invalid?
It happens all the time on these forums. Peer reviewed studies deemed 'invalid' or 'biased' or 'flawed' or the assertion that another study 'debunked' this one, etc. The fact that experienced, trained scientists performed and reviewed the study seemingly means nothing. A nice set of abs and the ability to type trumps all, even if you provide no proof that the abs are yours.
I've been trying to stay out of this, but I can't anymore.
A lot of studies ARE flawed. That's the reality of science. They do their best to test a hypothesis, but there are real world constraints that make studies have flaws. (This is especially true in weight loss studies, because they are either long term and based on self-reporting, or they isolate the study participants and they are short term.) That's why new theories are tested many times in many different ways before they are accepted as true. Each individual study doesn't mean much, it's the collective that matters. ...
My point wasn't whether some studies are flawed. It was that valid studies are routinely and commonly dismissed by MFP members who would like them to be flawed because it doesn't back up whatever diet doctrine they are currently infatuated with.
A peer reviewed and published study is rarely flawed. All studies have limitations. ALL of them. Those are usually pointed out in the study itself and/or in the reviews. That is not the same as flawed. Those studies that are flawed are usually trounced by other scientists pretty quickly.
But that's where you are wrong. They are ALL flawed. There is no such thing as a perfect study. Pointing out the flaws is a necessary part of understanding the study. That was my point.
Um, okay. So we disagree on the use of the term flawed. I don't see known and usually noted limitations, as "flaws". It's just the nature of the game.
But since all studies are flawed and worthy of derision, the OP seems a pretty big waste of time.
Never said that, but good try in your attempt to discount the opposing view.0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »SingRunTing wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »SingRunTing wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »WalkingAlong wrote: »I don't expect MFP threads to be the equivalent of a PHD dissertation or something..but if you are going to try and link a certain diet to reduced instances of cancer, then be prepared to back it up with some kind of peer reviewed study that you have actually read...
And if you've read it in books? You go back to the library and get the books, find the passages that say it (even if the three books very prominently claim it throughout), find the citations the books used, find them online to link to or re-type all the written citations, and post them here for opponents to then tear apart as invalid?
Then you're expected to defend the original researchers and the authors, who are doctors or respected experts in their fields, from the "MFP peer review panel" of English 101 graduates and other self-appointed experts?
Good luck with that.
If the studies support your assertion, why would it be torn apart as invalid?
It happens all the time on these forums. Peer reviewed studies deemed 'invalid' or 'biased' or 'flawed' or the assertion that another study 'debunked' this one, etc. The fact that experienced, trained scientists performed and reviewed the study seemingly means nothing. A nice set of abs and the ability to type trumps all, even if you provide no proof that the abs are yours.
I've been trying to stay out of this, but I can't anymore.
A lot of studies ARE flawed. That's the reality of science. They do their best to test a hypothesis, but there are real world constraints that make studies have flaws. (This is especially true in weight loss studies, because they are either long term and based on self-reporting, or they isolate the study participants and they are short term.) That's why new theories are tested many times in many different ways before they are accepted as true. Each individual study doesn't mean much, it's the collective that matters. ...
My point wasn't whether some studies are flawed. It was that valid studies are routinely and commonly dismissed by MFP members who would like them to be flawed because it doesn't back up whatever diet doctrine they are currently infatuated with.
A peer reviewed and published study is rarely flawed. All studies have limitations. ALL of them. Those are usually pointed out in the study itself and/or in the reviews. That is not the same as flawed. Those studies that are flawed are usually trounced by other scientists pretty quickly.
But that's where you are wrong. They are ALL flawed. There is no such thing as a perfect study. Pointing out the flaws is a necessary part of understanding the study. That was my point.
Um, okay. So we disagree on the use of the term flawed. I don't see known and usually noted limitations, as "flaws". It's just the nature of the game.
But since all studies are flawed and worthy of derision, the OP seems a pretty big waste of time.
THe point is not to post studies that are 100% without limitations/flaws. It's about knowing that if you make a scientific claim, then give us the resource you got that information from so people can check it out, discuss why the results might be good or might not be good, and to further improve people's knowledge about a topic.
Yeah, I don't see that happen much on MFP.
But MY point, was to answer a specific question re: why a valid study would be torn apart.0 -
NikkoBrutus wrote: »I joined MFP in April, 2014. I have never before posted in the forums. I don't use MFP as a resource for advice, research, or information. I only use it as a tool to track nutrition/calories. I don't have a weight problem and I have other resources for getting coaching on meeting my fitness goals. I do, however, generally take a minute or two to read over posts for amusement. However, this thread just seemed so extreme to me. As far as I know, the OP isn't a site administrator or even a moderator; she's just another site user. There seem to be a handful of the same people who support her position. I believe there are a large number of people who use this site, so the number of people who seem to be willing to actively post support of the OP's position is statistically fairly small.
I don't understand why anybody would take it upon themselves to try and control other people's actions by posting a set of rules/guidelines when they have no authority. In my mind, it's roughly the equivalent of a long time gym member posting a list of rules for other gym members aimed at controlling their workout protocol. It seems to me that it doesn't matter if other peoples workout protocols are better or not, a gym member has no business posting rules/guidelines in someone else's gym. I would respectfully suggest that you form a group that agree to follow these guidelines and leave the rest of the members alone.
Other than some forum rules threads, some from 3+ years ago, most stickies are written by fellow members and the mods actively recruit suggestions for new member written stickies. Just because a topic is suggested obviously doesn't mean it'll get stickied though.0 -
Let's also not forget. Current studies cover what we know now, not tomorrow.0
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You were not berated into anything. You're not a victim.WalkingAlong wrote: »
"Cool guys" is what you think I think of whom-- the 'YOU MUST POST LINKS lynch mob' or people who just post links? I post links constantly. I don't think the link lynch mob is cool.WalkingAlong wrote: »
Because 'support' is in the eye of the reader and the people who usually ask for links do so to try to 'win' the discussion and be seen as right. That's how the game goes. Demand links, discredit links, claim to be proven RIGHT.WalkingAlong wrote: »I don't expect MFP threads to be the equivalent of a PHD dissertation or something..but if you are going to try and link a certain diet to reduced instances of cancer, then be prepared to back it up with some kind of peer reviewed study that you have actually read...
And if you've read it in books? You go back to the library and get the books, find the passages that say it (even if the three books very prominently claim it throughout), find the citations the books used, find them online to link to or re-type all the written citations, and post them here for opponents to then tear apart as invalid?
Then you're expected to defend the original researchers and the authors, who are doctors or respected experts in their fields, from the "MFP peer review panel" of English 101 graduates and other self-appointed experts?
Good luck with that.
If the studies support your assertion, why would it be torn apart as invalid?
I would say their interest is almost never in the actual information but in being the arbiters of all the information here.
Then why do you bother? You could make a choice not to participate at all if you have such distrust for the people that'll read your links
Personally I think you could use a fan club. After all, if I understand correctly, that's what you seem to think the "cool guys" are - they post their links seemingly for the express purpose of patting each other on the back
A fan club? I think that is what someone who posts her English 101 notes in hopes of it getting stickied is after, to be honest.
I bothered posting links because I was berated into it.
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Silly girl! I'm 'merican.
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Doc Brown.0
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NikkoBrutus wrote: »I joined MFP in April, 2014. I have never before posted in the forums. I don't use MFP as a resource for advice, research, or information. I only use it as a tool to track nutrition/calories. I don't have a weight problem and I have other resources for getting coaching on meeting my fitness goals. I do, however, generally take a minute or two to read over posts for amusement. However, this thread just seemed so extreme to me. As far as I know, the OP isn't a site administrator or even a moderator; she's just another site user. There seem to be a handful of the same people who support her position. I believe there are a large number of people who use this site, so the number of people who seem to be willing to actively post support of the OP's position is statistically fairly small.
I don't understand why anybody would take it upon themselves to try and control other people's actions by posting a set of rules/guidelines when they have no authority. In my mind, it's roughly the equivalent of a long time gym member posting a list of rules for other gym members aimed at controlling their workout protocol. It seems to me that it doesn't matter if other peoples workout protocols are better or not, a gym member has no business posting rules/guidelines in someone else's gym. I would respectfully suggest that you form a group that agree to follow these guidelines and leave the rest of the members alone.
Not quite - this is the way mfp works - if the post is readily accepted as well written and useful information - it can become a guideline for other users. There are a number of terrific posts that have become guidelines and new users are directed to read them before diving into the forums.
Your analogy is a little leaky as one pays for gym memebership and it should be management's prerogative to post rules. Here it tends to be a discussion that may or may not dissolve into a gif fest.
As for your final statement - ironic post is ironic - you are free to read or not read posts as you see fit. But you just tried to do the same thing you are railing against......... control people's behaviour.
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