Getting Started with Strength Training
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Joshuam2107 wrote: »I'm on week 6 of stronglifts, I'm enjoying it but I don't know if you have a squat rack and necessary free weights at your gym.
There are dumbbells and barbells/plates at the gym. But I don't have a spotter. It is a 24 hour gym, and I go pretty late/early when there are not many or any people there. Some exercises are not an option due to safety since I cannot rely on having a spotter.
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Oh I dunno, only that there are hundreds of articles written on strength training, 1RM, specificity of load and volume to generate power, strength or hypertrophy... etc.
http://steadystrength.com/what-is-the-ideal-rep-range/
http://www.mensfitness.com/training/your-ideal-rep-range
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/high-reps-low-reps-which-rep-scheme-is-best.html
That's just the basic stuff there. Then there is that whole reality that when only bodyweight training, you would have to increase your body weight in order to increase strength gains. Unfortunately, that's thanks to gravity.
There's an interesting line in this link:
http://8fit.com/blog/strength-training-bodyweight-vs-lifting/
"Training for strength is pretty simple. All you really need to do is focus on adding load and/or speed to an exercise."
So, since I'm saying bodyweight training is inefficient for strength training. Tell me, which stimulus is greater? A pushup, or a 2 plate benchpress when done in the same tempo? What will generate a greater load across the chest? A handstand pushup, or a 1x bodyweight bench press?
I'm not going to waste my time posting anything that has data, because you won't read it, and that's not what this community really cottons to anyway. The reality is, that HFT with bodyweight movements is great, it's excellent for conditioning, and for a newbie... yeah, you get some strength gain as you'll basically learn to activate what you already have. If you want to get strong, and really, strength is a function of moving heavy stuff, you have to have and train with heavy stuff. Bodyweight isn't efficient for that, and works well when slotted in between strength training sessions.
Finally, since I am speaking to efficiency, and ability to overload a system. We look at the wikipedia definition of strength training, because why not, let's roll with it.
In which way can you most efficiently modulate resistance? In which way can you effectively use a load greater than your own body weight? In which way can you modulate specificity of training safely and efficiently?Strength training is a type of physical exercise specializing in the use of resistance to induce muscular contraction which builds the strength, anaerobic endurance, and size of skeletal muscles.
Consider my questions rhetorical. The answer is tools. Free weights, bands, machines, etc. Bodyweight calisthenics is for conditioning. A pushup, a dip, a pull up. Those are basic, and something any of us should be able to do. That's not strong. A pushup with a load on your back, a pull up with a plate. That's when you can start discussing strong, and that requires outside implements for load increase.0 -
Oh I dunno, only that there are hundreds of articles written on strength training, 1RM, specificity of load and volume to generate power, strength or hypertrophy... etc.
http://steadystrength.com/what-is-the-ideal-rep-range/
http://www.mensfitness.com/training/your-ideal-rep-range
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/high-reps-low-reps-which-rep-scheme-is-best.html
That's just the basic stuff there. Then there is that whole reality that when only bodyweight training, you would have to increase your body weight in order to increase strength gains. Unfortunately, that's thanks to gravity.
There's an interesting line in this link:
http://8fit.com/blog/strength-training-bodyweight-vs-lifting/
"Training for strength is pretty simple. All you really need to do is focus on adding load and/or speed to an exercise."
So, since I'm saying bodyweight training is inefficient for strength training. Tell me, which stimulus is greater? A pushup, or a 2 plate benchpress when done in the same tempo? What will generate a greater load across the chest? A handstand pushup, or a 1x bodyweight bench press?
I'm not going to waste my time posting anything that has data, because you won't read it, and that's not what this community really cottons to anyway. The reality is, that HFT with bodyweight movements is great, it's excellent for conditioning, and for a newbie... yeah, you get some strength gain as you'll basically learn to activate what you already have. If you want to get strong, and really, strength is a function of moving heavy stuff, you have to have and train with heavy stuff. Bodyweight isn't efficient for that, and works well when slotted in between strength training sessions.
Finally, since I am speaking to efficiency, and ability to overload a system. We look at the wikipedia definition of strength training, because why not, let's roll with it.
In which way can you most efficiently modulate resistance? In which way can you effectively use a load greater than your own body weight? In which way can you modulate specificity of training safely and efficiently?Strength training is a type of physical exercise specializing in the use of resistance to induce muscular contraction which builds the strength, anaerobic endurance, and size of skeletal muscles.
Consider my questions rhetorical. The answer is tools. Free weights, bands, machines, etc. Bodyweight calisthenics is for conditioning. A pushup, a dip, a pull up. Those are basic, and something any of us should be able to do. That's not strong. A pushup with a load on your back, a pull up with a plate. That's when you can start discussing strong, and that requires outside implements for load increase.
Special pleading and begging the question are logical fallacies, but I do appreciate the sheer effort you put into typing all those words.0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »Joshuam2107 wrote: »I'm on week 6 of stronglifts, I'm enjoying it but I don't know if you have a squat rack and necessary free weights at your gym.
There are dumbbells and barbells/plates at the gym. But I don't have a spotter. It is a 24 hour gym, and I go pretty late/early when there are not many or any people there. Some exercises are not an option due to safety since I cannot rely on having a spotter.
Based on your posts, I am going to hazard a guess that you have little or no experience with weights. You should pick a set program which has everything predefined for you. Stronglifts and Starting Strength are the best options for you. The other benefit is that both of these programs only require a 3 times a week commitment, like you prefer. Check out the websites for details and good advice. My personal recommendation would be Stronglifts 5x5 (http://stronglifts.com/), which comes with a website full of explanations, a free app that practically does everything for you and is a proven and tested method to begin with strength training.
Body weight training would work fine, but you don't need a gym membership for that, and you wouldn't gain strength as rapidly (which may not be as important to you of course). If you want to take advantage of your membership and maximize gains, you should use free weights.
Finally, you don't need a spotter for any of the above. This is directly addressed on the Stronglifts website, and I am sure the same is true for the Starting Strength books (haven't read them though). You will have to learn to be safe and exercise with proper technique on your own anyway, if you plan to stick with strength training, so you may as well learn it while the weights are relatively light.0 -
The only effort was to stay polite, and not write what I really wanted to write, which would no doubt earn me a warning.
You can claim logical fallacies all you want, it doesn't change that what I wrote was accurate, and a simple elaboration on the reality that free weights and other tools are far more efficient than handstand pushups until you can bench 1.5x bodyweight.0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »
Some exercises are not an option due to safety since I cannot rely on having a spotter.
Unless you are at an 24 hr fitness active, you should have everything you need for Stronglifts. All the 24 hr Sport level gyms I've seen have squat racks and or power racks with safeties. There should not be any exercise you can't so because you don't have a spotter. If you are doing something without safeties (you will only need this for squats and bench press on stronglifts) then just don't push yourself to the point of failure.
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You know what, changed my mind.
All you need is to do step and eat 1000 calories a day.0 -
The only effort was to stay polite, and not write what I really wanted to write, which would no doubt earn me a warning.
You can claim logical fallacies all you want, it doesn't change that what I wrote was accurate, and a simple elaboration on the reality that free weights and other tools are far more efficient than handstand pushups until you can bench 1.5x bodyweight.
The truth of a claim doesn't matter if it is irrelevant to the point at issue. Nobody said bodyweight exercises were more efficient. You're arguing a point that isn't being contested.0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »Joshuam2107 wrote: »I'm on week 6 of stronglifts, I'm enjoying it but I don't know if you have a squat rack and necessary free weights at your gym.
There are dumbbells and barbells/plates at the gym. But I don't have a spotter. It is a 24 hour gym, and I go pretty late/early when there are not many or any people there. Some exercises are not an option due to safety since I cannot rely on having a spotter.
Okay, I'm ignoring most of the posts on this page so if I'm missing something relevant let me know. LOL!
I wouldn't let that stop you from starting something like Starting Strength or StrongLifts5x5. You're probably long ways off from needing a spotter for a lift. Most people don't know how to spot anyway and end-up screwing up the lift for you; I'd rather just use safety bars. To that point, the squat stand should have either fixed or adjustable safety bars that you can move to a height that won't interfere with your lift but will catch the bar should you need to bail. If you have a squat rack with adjustable safety bars, you can likely bench press in that rack as well as long as there is a movable bench.
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There is no harm in a rank newcomer starting out in bodyweight training and assessing the personal results.
It also gives you a chance to assess proper form, which is extremely important to avoid injury. For example, doing 20 deep bodyweight (bw) squats for 3 - 4 sets, watching your form and then finding out just how sore you are two days later can give you very valuable feedback on where you need to be, working with/without weights. That can be your guide.
That goes for any other bw exercise. Once you have a good handle on form, try some of the freeweights for things like dumbbell (DB) incline presses, Romanian DB deadlift, DB squats, etc.
Don't forget kettleball workouts usually don't require a spotter, but proper form is important to avoid injury. Educate yourself in this before trying it (comb through different bodybuilding/workout/YouTube vids) for examples and ideas.
There are also resistance bands of all kinds which are excellent for use nearly anywhere, including home and travel. Do your research (YouTube videos can be - CAN be - good for this).
People often mess up big time on squat form, so using bw and then DBs to get this right will put you further ahead than charging headlong into barbells without a spotter/trainer.
The important thing here is to continue your journey and ramp it up, using your brain before using your muscles. Kudos to you for walking this path. The more you do and the more you learn, the more you'll enjoy the process AND the results.0 -
herrspoons wrote: »The trouble with bodyweight strength training is progressive overload, or rather the lack of it.
Yes, you can get stronger by doing bodyweight exercises, just as you could dig a 6 foot trench with a trowel, but why would you unless that was all you had?
Progressive overload comes from changing the difficulty of the movement. For example, a full planche pushup is unequivocally significantly more difficult than a standard push up.
Free weights are absolutely more efficient at building strength, but to argue that progressive overload can't occur in body weight training shows a misunderstanding of the possibilities of bodyweight training.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFPsvF3UOdo 0 -
Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »Joshuam2107 wrote: »I'm on week 6 of stronglifts, I'm enjoying it but I don't know if you have a squat rack and necessary free weights at your gym.
There are dumbbells and barbells/plates at the gym. But I don't have a spotter. It is a 24 hour gym, and I go pretty late/early when there are not many or any people there. Some exercises are not an option due to safety since I cannot rely on having a spotter.
Okay, I'm ignoring most of the posts on this page so if I'm missing something relevant let me know. LOL!
I wouldn't let that stop you from starting something like Starting Strength or StrongLifts5x5. You're probably long ways off from needing a spotter for a lift. Most people don't know how to spot anyway and end-up screwing up the lift for you; I'd rather just use safety bars. To that point, the squat stand should have either fixed or adjustable safety bars that you can move to a height that won't interfere with your lift but will catch the bar should you need to bail. If you have a squat rack with adjustable safety bars, you can likely bench press in that rack as well as long as there is a movable bench.
Definitely this. OP, I did StrongLifts 5x5 with no spotter, and plenty of people do it that way. If you use a power rack/cage, you can do everything, including a bench press, without a spotter.
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fivethreeone wrote: »herrspoons wrote: »The trouble with bodyweight strength training is progressive overload, or rather the lack of it.
Yes, you can get stronger by doing bodyweight exercises, just as you could dig a 6 foot trench with a trowel, but why would you unless that was all you had?
Progressive overload comes from changing the difficulty of the movement. For example, a full planche pushup is unequivocally significantly more difficult than a standard push up.
Free weights are absolutely more efficient at building strength, but to argue that progressive overload can't occur in body weight training shows a misunderstanding of the possibilities of bodyweight training.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFPsvF3UOdo
It really all depends on what your goals are. You can vary BW exercises as mentioned above or you can incorporate them into your training. Do something like...
- Bench Press super-set with Pull-ups or Barbell Rows super-set with Dips
- One style of training can have you do something like... Bench Press (sub-maximal weight) super-set with push-ups on a stability ball for 12-20 reps (unstable surface training to build stability).
There are many many options for training but as you're beginning you may just want to find a simple proven method and go from there. Whether it's bodyweight or weighted you have decide what's best for you and your goals.0 -
herrspoons wrote: »fivethreeone wrote: »herrspoons wrote: »The trouble with bodyweight strength training is progressive overload, or rather the lack of it.
Yes, you can get stronger by doing bodyweight exercises, just as you could dig a 6 foot trench with a trowel, but why would you unless that was all you had?
Progressive overload comes from changing the difficulty of the movement. For example, a full planche pushup is unequivocally significantly more difficult than a standard push up.
Free weights are absolutely more efficient at building strength, but to argue that progressive overload can't occur in body weight training shows a misunderstanding of the possibilities of bodyweight training.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFPsvF3UOdo
You misunderstand. It is the lack of progressive overload compared to more efficient means of strength training that is the problem. You can make progress to a degree, but it's a ridiculously inefficient way of doing so compared to the alternatives.
So it can only really be recommended if there are no better alternatives available.
I agree. It is much less effective and shouldn't be the first choice of pretty much anyone.
However, progressive overload is possible.0 -
Now I understand what DB stands for0
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herrspoons wrote: »fivethreeone wrote: »herrspoons wrote: »The trouble with bodyweight strength training is progressive overload, or rather the lack of it.
Yes, you can get stronger by doing bodyweight exercises, just as you could dig a 6 foot trench with a trowel, but why would you unless that was all you had?
Progressive overload comes from changing the difficulty of the movement. For example, a full planche pushup is unequivocally significantly more difficult than a standard push up.
Free weights are absolutely more efficient at building strength, but to argue that progressive overload can't occur in body weight training shows a misunderstanding of the possibilities of bodyweight training.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFPsvF3UOdo
You misunderstand. It is the lack of progressive overload compared to more efficient means of strength training that is the problem. You can make progress to a degree, but it's a ridiculously inefficient way of doing so compared to the alternatives.
So it can only really be recommended if there are no better alternatives available.
Which is exactly what Fivethreeone was basically saying. The argument didn't start off as to what was better/more effective, but saying that bodyweight wasn't strength training at all.0 -
I downloaded the Stronglifts 5x5 and am excited to give it a try. What should I expect for results? If I don't notice any change at a month, is that normal? Two months? Etc.?0
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midwesterner85 wrote: »I downloaded the Stronglifts 5x5 and am excited to give it a try. What should I expect for results? If I don't notice any change at a month, is that normal? Two months? Etc.?
It takes a long, long time to see significant results. Give it a few months at the bare minimum. The people with impressive results (without drugs) have been doing it for years and years.0 -
And we get back to my point I was making.herrspoons wrote: »fivethreeone wrote: »herrspoons wrote: »The trouble with bodyweight strength training is progressive overload, or rather the lack of it.
Yes, you can get stronger by doing bodyweight exercises, just as you could dig a 6 foot trench with a trowel, but why would you unless that was all you had?
Progressive overload comes from changing the difficulty of the movement. For example, a full planche pushup is unequivocally significantly more difficult than a standard push up.
Free weights are absolutely more efficient at building strength, but to argue that progressive overload can't occur in body weight training shows a misunderstanding of the possibilities of bodyweight training.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFPsvF3UOdo
You misunderstand. It is the lack of progressive overload compared to more efficient means of strength training that is the problem. You can make progress to a degree, but it's a ridiculously inefficient way of doing so compared to the alternatives.
So it can only really be recommended if there are no better alternatives available.
Unfortunately, 531 didn't get it.
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midwesterner85 wrote: »I downloaded the Stronglifts 5x5 and am excited to give it a try. What should I expect for results? If I don't notice any change at a month, is that normal? Two months? Etc.?
Give it a good solid two QUARTERS. Work the movements well, follow what your body tells you, and you'll get strong efficiently.0
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