Getting Started with Strength Training
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herrspoons wrote: »The trouble with bodyweight strength training is progressive overload, or rather the lack of it.
Yes, you can get stronger by doing bodyweight exercises, just as you could dig a 6 foot trench with a trowel, but why would you unless that was all you had?
Progressive overload comes from changing the difficulty of the movement. For example, a full planche pushup is unequivocally significantly more difficult than a standard push up.
Free weights are absolutely more efficient at building strength, but to argue that progressive overload can't occur in body weight training shows a misunderstanding of the possibilities of bodyweight training.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFPsvF3UOdo 0 -
Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »Joshuam2107 wrote: »I'm on week 6 of stronglifts, I'm enjoying it but I don't know if you have a squat rack and necessary free weights at your gym.
There are dumbbells and barbells/plates at the gym. But I don't have a spotter. It is a 24 hour gym, and I go pretty late/early when there are not many or any people there. Some exercises are not an option due to safety since I cannot rely on having a spotter.
Okay, I'm ignoring most of the posts on this page so if I'm missing something relevant let me know. LOL!
I wouldn't let that stop you from starting something like Starting Strength or StrongLifts5x5. You're probably long ways off from needing a spotter for a lift. Most people don't know how to spot anyway and end-up screwing up the lift for you; I'd rather just use safety bars. To that point, the squat stand should have either fixed or adjustable safety bars that you can move to a height that won't interfere with your lift but will catch the bar should you need to bail. If you have a squat rack with adjustable safety bars, you can likely bench press in that rack as well as long as there is a movable bench.
Definitely this. OP, I did StrongLifts 5x5 with no spotter, and plenty of people do it that way. If you use a power rack/cage, you can do everything, including a bench press, without a spotter.
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fivethreeone wrote: »herrspoons wrote: »The trouble with bodyweight strength training is progressive overload, or rather the lack of it.
Yes, you can get stronger by doing bodyweight exercises, just as you could dig a 6 foot trench with a trowel, but why would you unless that was all you had?
Progressive overload comes from changing the difficulty of the movement. For example, a full planche pushup is unequivocally significantly more difficult than a standard push up.
Free weights are absolutely more efficient at building strength, but to argue that progressive overload can't occur in body weight training shows a misunderstanding of the possibilities of bodyweight training.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFPsvF3UOdo
It really all depends on what your goals are. You can vary BW exercises as mentioned above or you can incorporate them into your training. Do something like...
- Bench Press super-set with Pull-ups or Barbell Rows super-set with Dips
- One style of training can have you do something like... Bench Press (sub-maximal weight) super-set with push-ups on a stability ball for 12-20 reps (unstable surface training to build stability).
There are many many options for training but as you're beginning you may just want to find a simple proven method and go from there. Whether it's bodyweight or weighted you have decide what's best for you and your goals.0 -
herrspoons wrote: »fivethreeone wrote: »herrspoons wrote: »The trouble with bodyweight strength training is progressive overload, or rather the lack of it.
Yes, you can get stronger by doing bodyweight exercises, just as you could dig a 6 foot trench with a trowel, but why would you unless that was all you had?
Progressive overload comes from changing the difficulty of the movement. For example, a full planche pushup is unequivocally significantly more difficult than a standard push up.
Free weights are absolutely more efficient at building strength, but to argue that progressive overload can't occur in body weight training shows a misunderstanding of the possibilities of bodyweight training.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFPsvF3UOdo
You misunderstand. It is the lack of progressive overload compared to more efficient means of strength training that is the problem. You can make progress to a degree, but it's a ridiculously inefficient way of doing so compared to the alternatives.
So it can only really be recommended if there are no better alternatives available.
I agree. It is much less effective and shouldn't be the first choice of pretty much anyone.
However, progressive overload is possible.0 -
Now I understand what DB stands for0
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herrspoons wrote: »fivethreeone wrote: »herrspoons wrote: »The trouble with bodyweight strength training is progressive overload, or rather the lack of it.
Yes, you can get stronger by doing bodyweight exercises, just as you could dig a 6 foot trench with a trowel, but why would you unless that was all you had?
Progressive overload comes from changing the difficulty of the movement. For example, a full planche pushup is unequivocally significantly more difficult than a standard push up.
Free weights are absolutely more efficient at building strength, but to argue that progressive overload can't occur in body weight training shows a misunderstanding of the possibilities of bodyweight training.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFPsvF3UOdo
You misunderstand. It is the lack of progressive overload compared to more efficient means of strength training that is the problem. You can make progress to a degree, but it's a ridiculously inefficient way of doing so compared to the alternatives.
So it can only really be recommended if there are no better alternatives available.
Which is exactly what Fivethreeone was basically saying. The argument didn't start off as to what was better/more effective, but saying that bodyweight wasn't strength training at all.0 -
I downloaded the Stronglifts 5x5 and am excited to give it a try. What should I expect for results? If I don't notice any change at a month, is that normal? Two months? Etc.?0
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midwesterner85 wrote: »I downloaded the Stronglifts 5x5 and am excited to give it a try. What should I expect for results? If I don't notice any change at a month, is that normal? Two months? Etc.?
It takes a long, long time to see significant results. Give it a few months at the bare minimum. The people with impressive results (without drugs) have been doing it for years and years.0 -
And we get back to my point I was making.herrspoons wrote: »fivethreeone wrote: »herrspoons wrote: »The trouble with bodyweight strength training is progressive overload, or rather the lack of it.
Yes, you can get stronger by doing bodyweight exercises, just as you could dig a 6 foot trench with a trowel, but why would you unless that was all you had?
Progressive overload comes from changing the difficulty of the movement. For example, a full planche pushup is unequivocally significantly more difficult than a standard push up.
Free weights are absolutely more efficient at building strength, but to argue that progressive overload can't occur in body weight training shows a misunderstanding of the possibilities of bodyweight training.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFPsvF3UOdo
You misunderstand. It is the lack of progressive overload compared to more efficient means of strength training that is the problem. You can make progress to a degree, but it's a ridiculously inefficient way of doing so compared to the alternatives.
So it can only really be recommended if there are no better alternatives available.
Unfortunately, 531 didn't get it.
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midwesterner85 wrote: »I downloaded the Stronglifts 5x5 and am excited to give it a try. What should I expect for results? If I don't notice any change at a month, is that normal? Two months? Etc.?
Give it a good solid two QUARTERS. Work the movements well, follow what your body tells you, and you'll get strong efficiently.0 -
herrspoons wrote: »
Which is the point: Why would you unless you had to? Much simpler to add a few more pounds to the bar.
Although there's a lot to be said for dips and chins, especially when weighted.
The only thing I'd say to this is that I personally feel it's important to be strong and be able to manage your body-weight. I don't see the point in being able to bench 300lbs but not be able to do 5 dips or 5 pull-ups. I think it's important to have good absolute strength and be able to efficiently manage your own body-weight. My personal opinion is that a good strength training system should include resistance movements and some body-weight movements, at the very least in the form of dips, pull-ups, back raises, and various planks and core work. Again, that's just my opinion and how I approach my training.0 -
fivethreeone wrote: »The only effort was to stay polite, and not write what I really wanted to write, which would no doubt earn me a warning.
You can claim logical fallacies all you want, it doesn't change that what I wrote was accurate, and a simple elaboration on the reality that free weights and other tools are far more efficient than handstand pushups until you can bench 1.5x bodyweight.
The truth of a claim doesn't matter if it is irrelevant to the point at issue. Nobody said bodyweight exercises were more efficient. You're arguing a point that isn't being contested.
You're right, no one said that.
I said, several times, all upstream that strength training, being the use of free weights was more efficient at generating strength than bodyweight.
What you have done is created and argued a strawman, dearie. You actively and willfully misrepresented my own statement in order to argue a point that doesn't exist.
Kisses.0 -
AllonsYtotheTardis wrote: »Now I understand what DB stands for
Do tell.0 -
fivethreeone wrote: »The only effort was to stay polite, and not write what I really wanted to write, which would no doubt earn me a warning.
You can claim logical fallacies all you want, it doesn't change that what I wrote was accurate, and a simple elaboration on the reality that free weights and other tools are far more efficient than handstand pushups until you can bench 1.5x bodyweight.
The truth of a claim doesn't matter if it is irrelevant to the point at issue. Nobody said bodyweight exercises were more efficient. You're arguing a point that isn't being contested.
You're right, no one said that.
I said, several times, all upstream that strength training, being the use of free weights was more efficient at generating strength than bodyweight.
What you have done is created and argued a strawman, dearie. You actively and willfully misrepresented my own statement in order to argue a point that doesn't exist.
Kisses.
And what you've just done is show yourself to be a patronizing ***.
BUT, to quote you:fivethreeone wrote: »concordancia wrote: »There is an app for the You Are Your Own Gym program.
This is a bodyweight program.
Which means, not strength training. It's bodyweight training.
You were then corrected by 531, who advised that though it's not the most efficient method of strength training, bodyweight exercises are indeed strength training.
Hon.
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Oh I'm patronizing when people ask me to be.
I have said from square one that bw training is not efficient, nor can it be relied upon for legitimate progression unless of course you gain weight. It is however a great addition to a strength training program. We all need calisthenics.
Hon. 0 -
Oh I'm patronizing when people ask me to be.
I have said from square one that bw training is not efficient, nor can it be relied upon for legitimate progression unless of course you gain weight. It is however a great addition to a strength training program. We all need calisthenics.
Hon.
You said it wasn't strength training. You didn't say it was less efficient strength training until after being corrected. Legitimate progression can be attained by changing the mechanics of a move. Simple example, wall push ups to knee push ups, to standard push ups to incline push ups. For someone just starting out, those would cause legitimate progression of strength. As long as you're getting stronger, you're strength training.
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Eh, strength training is moving progressively heavier loads. I can concede that you CAN have a progressively heavier load when doing bodyweight calisthenics, provided you increase your weight.
again, no way is that efficient. Go for it though.0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »I'm almost at the half-way point with my weight loss, and had planned that to be when I would start working on building muscle (while continuing to lose the remaining fat). It isn't really an option to hire a personal trainer, so I'm looking to try to find a place to create a workout plan that is flexible for growth. I've considered Fiverr, but am open to other suggestions as far as websites or apps. I do have a gym membership (24 hr. gym) with the typical weight machines and have an opportunity to go 2-3 times per week most weeks.
Does anybody have suggestions for websites or apps that can help create a strength training plan? TIA
as you have gym membership with all the kit,why not utilise that?
any gym should give you at least an induction to show how to safely get started towards your goals.
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midwesterner85 wrote: »I downloaded the Stronglifts 5x5 and am excited to give it a try. What should I expect for results? If I don't notice any change at a month, is that normal? Two months? Etc.?
You will see huge gains in strength in 6 weeks if you follow the program. In that amount of time (if you follow the program to the letter) you will have added 90lbs alone to your squats.
I can't stress enough that as a beginner you need to start with the lowest weight and work on your form. Video it and critique and seek help if needed. It'll not only help you avoid injury, but will also help you lift the weight more efficiently over time.
The Starting Strength book has great detailed information on form if you are looking for more information on the lifts and I'd recommend it if you plan on really diving into this.
This is not a program to build bodybuider muscle. It's a program to build strength and it will happen very quickly in a relative sense. You will gain muscle as a byproduct of course. Nothing happens over night, but after three months you will be doing things you never thought were possible.
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Also, don't be surprised if empty bar squats destroy your legs the first session. That pain will absolutely go away as you continue on the program. Likely within two weeks you'll have nothing more that slight soreness after your workouts. If you need to rest an extra day or two the first week then do it, but be reasonable about it. You can work out with a little soreness, but if you're having legitimate trouble walking then recover a bit. Some light cardio (incline walking) on an off day is a great way to help your muscles recover.0
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midwesterner85 wrote: »I'm almost at the half-way point with my weight loss, and had planned that to be when I would start working on building muscle (while continuing to lose the remaining fat). It isn't really an option to hire a personal trainer, so I'm looking to try to find a place to create a workout plan that is flexible for growth. I've considered Fiverr, but am open to other suggestions as far as websites or apps. I do have a gym membership (24 hr. gym) with the typical weight machines and have an opportunity to go 2-3 times per week most weeks.
Does anybody have suggestions for websites or apps that can help create a strength training plan? TIA
as you have gym membership with all the kit,why not utilise that?
any gym should give you at least an induction to show how to safely get started towards your goals.
Yes, they will do that, but I haven't scheduled it yet. It sounds more like they just want to show me how to use machines safely than to actually figure out which machinesm how much weight, how many reps, how often to be effective. The earliest I am available is 12/15. Should I wait until then?0 -
I wouldn't, up to you though. I don't have access to your schedule.midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »I'm almost at the half-way point with my weight loss, and had planned that to be when I would start working on building muscle (while continuing to lose the remaining fat). It isn't really an option to hire a personal trainer, so I'm looking to try to find a place to create a workout plan that is flexible for growth. I've considered Fiverr, but am open to other suggestions as far as websites or apps. I do have a gym membership (24 hr. gym) with the typical weight machines and have an opportunity to go 2-3 times per week most weeks.
Does anybody have suggestions for websites or apps that can help create a strength training plan? TIA
as you have gym membership with all the kit,why not utilise that?
any gym should give you at least an induction to show how to safely get started towards your goals.
Yes, they will do that, but I haven't scheduled it yet. It sounds more like they just want to show me how to use machines safely than to actually figure out which machinesm how much weight, how many reps, how often to be effective. The earliest I am available is 12/15. Should I wait until then?
I also wouldn't want to get a tour of the machines. If I were new, I'd prefer to have a session or two with a trainer to train form on the big 4 lifts. That way I can get to strength training.
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I wouldn't, up to you though. I don't have access to your schedule.midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »I'm almost at the half-way point with my weight loss, and had planned that to be when I would start working on building muscle (while continuing to lose the remaining fat). It isn't really an option to hire a personal trainer, so I'm looking to try to find a place to create a workout plan that is flexible for growth. I've considered Fiverr, but am open to other suggestions as far as websites or apps. I do have a gym membership (24 hr. gym) with the typical weight machines and have an opportunity to go 2-3 times per week most weeks.
Does anybody have suggestions for websites or apps that can help create a strength training plan? TIA
as you have gym membership with all the kit,why not utilise that?
any gym should give you at least an induction to show how to safely get started towards your goals.
Yes, they will do that, but I haven't scheduled it yet. It sounds more like they just want to show me how to use machines safely than to actually figure out which machinesm how much weight, how many reps, how often to be effective. The earliest I am available is 12/15. Should I wait until then?
I also wouldn't want to get a tour of the machines. If I were new, I'd prefer to have a session or two with a trainer to train form on the big 4 lifts. That way I can get to strength training.
I'm sorry I wasn't clear... 12/15 is the earliest I am available. The question of if I should wait is not whether I should wait until then for the "orientation" (not an option for me), but if I should wait until then to start lifting at all.0 -
I wouldn't wait, personally. Doing something is better than sitting idle.0
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midwesterner85 wrote: »I'm almost at the half-way point with my weight loss, and had planned that to be when I would start working on building muscle (while continuing to lose the remaining fat).midwesterner85 wrote: »I downloaded the Stronglifts 5x5 and am excited to give it a try. What should I expect for results? If I don't notice any change at a month, is that normal? Two months? Etc.?
It's not clear from your post if you are planning on starting your strength training while still eating at a deficit. If that is the case, you won't see any gains (apart from the initial "newbie gains). You will be able to progress and lift more and more weight as you go through the program, but you will not progress as much as you would eating at a surplus. However, you will maintain more of your muscle mass than you would cutting without strength training.
You will see definition because you are losing fat mass, not because you are gaining muscle mass (again, apart from newbie gains).
In 6 weeks with Stronglifts I went from barely benching 45 lbs to benching 80 lbs while eating at a modest deficit.
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That's solid improvement.britishbroccoli wrote: »In 6 weeks with Stronglifts I went from barely benching 45 lbs to benching 80 lbs while eating at a modest deficit.
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There are a lot of videos on YouTube for the lifts, you can search-out the video to see them done. Honestly, not all trainers will teach you correctly. I've seen many a trainer teach the bench with flared-out elbows, pressing but only brings the bar down to your mouth, 1/4 squats, starting deadlifts from the pins, etc. Good YouTube references...
Joe DeFranco, Mark Rippletoe, Louie Simmons (make sure it's on the raw lift), Rogue Fitness (I actually like their videos, not bad at all), Chad Wesley Smith (Juggernaut Training), Dan Green (also JT).0 -
the semantics of bw movements versus bb movements notwithstanding, at some point newbie gains will go away and BW overload, even with more advanced movements, can eventually go away too.
(IOW - I understand the "BW training is BW training; strength training is strength training" - different modalities for different goals. you will gain some strength with bw, but given how quickly the curve advances, how difficult it may be to add resistance, etc, its place should be separate from "strength training" - both have very useful, important places, it's just that their paths separate not too long down the S&C path)
it just sounded like vehement agreement, just some muddiness about the terminology!
Or: some of the advanced movements to challenge yourself can be really hard to attain (e.g., atg pistols), and you could progress to greater levels of strength with bb movements. Or: an atg pistol may not necessarily translate to a big squat.
But, TS: you're at a great place where you can make solid gains! yay!0 -
britishbroccoli wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »I'm almost at the half-way point with my weight loss, and had planned that to be when I would start working on building muscle (while continuing to lose the remaining fat).midwesterner85 wrote: »I downloaded the Stronglifts 5x5 and am excited to give it a try. What should I expect for results? If I don't notice any change at a month, is that normal? Two months? Etc.?
It's not clear from your post if you are planning on starting your strength training while still eating at a deficit. If that is the case, you won't see any gains (apart from the initial "newbie gains). You will be able to progress and lift more and more weight as you go through the program, but you will not progress as much as you would eating at a surplus. However, you will maintain more of your muscle mass than you would cutting without strength training.
You will see definition because you are losing fat mass, not because you are gaining muscle mass (again, apart from newbie gains).
In 6 weeks with Stronglifts I went from barely benching 45 lbs to benching 80 lbs while eating at a modest deficit.
Yes, I plan to continue to eat at a deficit for awhile. That may last as long as a year in order to lose the remaining excess weight (fat weight). If the result is to preserve muscle while losing more fat, then I will still consider that a win... I was just noticing that I've lost more than 10% of my body weight so far while my fat % (of the total) has decreased only about 2% (so I've lost about as much muscle as I've lost fat).0 -
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