Eating at restaurants used to be fun, now it's kind of stressful.
Replies
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goddessofawesome wrote: »I find this a lot less clunky than MFPs recipe builder. It really only takes minutes per recipe, a lot less time than it takes to cook the food. It would be pretty straightforward for a Mom & Pop to put the info together, and would probably be less than an hour or so for a full menu (and if they take pride in their menu, they would probably enjoy it - we obsess over what we love). If the Mom & Pops can't afford an hour of time to help out their consumers, they are probably doomed anyways. Holding others to account is a part of personal responsibility. The Moms and Pop's have just as much responsibility as the rest of us.
The point is that many mom & pop restaurant chefs don't weigh and measure the ingredients and just go by taste and there's nothing wrong with that. And I don't agree that they would "enjoy" measuring out everything and writing down every single little ingredient right down to how much salt they used because it would take the fun out of their creativity.
I don't go out to my local restaurants under the guise that the steak that's in a caramelized onion and mushroom sauce, risotto and vegetables is going to be low in calories nor do I think they should be forced to state what the calories are in that meal. If I really wanted to know then I'd make the same meal at home and weigh and measure all the ingredients. I go out to eat for the experience and if I want something low-cal then I'll ask the chef to adjust it accordingly (ie: don't butter the steamed veggies, skip sauces or get it on the side, get a side salad or extra veggies in lieu of potatoes).
Restaurants shouldn't be held responsible for calorie counts on menus. They never had so why start now? The CONSUMER should be held responsible for what they put in their mouth, not eating everything on their plate and exercising.
Let's not forget all the restaurants that are unique establishments (as opposed to often soul-less chain eateries) in the sense that they change their menu on a regular basis, perhaps never to serve the same exact stuff again...
I don't know if this is a cultural thing, but I seriously perceive this whole "Restaurants have to take responsibility" as something as utterly dense as "Beware hot contents" on coffee-mug lids. Have people forgotten how to use their brains already?
How about learning while you (general you) go, make it a real lifestyle change, and take responsibility of what is on your plate. By that I mean that next time you chop a tomato, chuck it into a measuring cup so you see how much a medium-sized tomato fills of the volume. Maybe it's possible to apply that same knowledge when you eat a salad and in your mind can scoop all the tomato bits into a single pile, then compare the volume to your memory of what it looked like in the kitchen? Or how about the serving size of the meat or fish you like? Or is this too difficult?
ETA
I perceive mom & pop as a small corner place like a bistro or such.
No one had to use seat belts before seat belt laws - why should they have to? Anyone could drink and drive before drinking and driving laws - why stop? Um - cause it helps...
Restaurants don't need to be personally responsible, just the people you want to mock do? So some people need to be more personaly responsible than others? If a restaurant is generating truly unhealthy food, they should be accountable.
I generate my own recipes on MFPs recipe generator. I have actually measured my tablespoons (pour out chia by the tablespoon - it's just as easy to use as a scoop) and 1/2 cups for food (when I enter, then I eyeball, then a few months later I recheck .) The calorie counts/measurements are correct, or I would stop losing weight. The food I weigh (which isn't much), I weigh every time I eat it (serving sizes that don't work in measuring cups, like 1/2 grapefruit, or an apple). It takes less than a minute to measure things, and is almost essential to some recipes for a good balance of flavours, or chemistry. It really is not difficult - that's my point. It's easy, it helps, why not? Respectfully disagreeing
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goddessofawesome wrote: »I find this a lot less clunky than MFPs recipe builder. It really only takes minutes per recipe, a lot less time than it takes to cook the food. It would be pretty straightforward for a Mom & Pop to put the info together, and would probably be less than an hour or so for a full menu (and if they take pride in their menu, they would probably enjoy it - we obsess over what we love). If the Mom & Pops can't afford an hour of time to help out their consumers, they are probably doomed anyways. Holding others to account is a part of personal responsibility. The Moms and Pop's have just as much responsibility as the rest of us.
The point is that many mom & pop restaurant chefs don't weigh and measure the ingredients and just go by taste and there's nothing wrong with that. And I don't agree that they would "enjoy" measuring out everything and writing down every single little ingredient right down to how much salt they used because it would take the fun out of their creativity.
I don't go out to my local restaurants under the guise that the steak that's in a caramelized onion and mushroom sauce, risotto and vegetables is going to be low in calories nor do I think they should be forced to state what the calories are in that meal. If I really wanted to know then I'd make the same meal at home and weigh and measure all the ingredients. I go out to eat for the experience and if I want something low-cal then I'll ask the chef to adjust it accordingly (ie: don't butter the steamed veggies, skip sauces or get it on the side, get a side salad or extra veggies in lieu of potatoes).
Restaurants shouldn't be held responsible for calorie counts on menus. They never had so why start now? The CONSUMER should be held responsible for what they put in their mouth, not eating everything on their plate and exercising.
Let's not forget all the restaurants that are unique establishments (as opposed to often soul-less chain eateries) in the sense that they change their menu on a regular basis, perhaps never to serve the same exact stuff again...
I don't know if this is a cultural thing, but I seriously perceive this whole "Restaurants have to take responsibility" as something as utterly dense as "Beware hot contents" on coffee-mug lids. Have people forgotten how to use their brains already?
How about learning while you (general you) go, make it a real lifestyle change, and take responsibility of what is on your plate. By that I mean that next time you chop a tomato, chuck it into a measuring cup so you see how much a medium-sized tomato fills of the volume. Maybe it's possible to apply that same knowledge when you eat a salad and in your mind can scoop all the tomato bits into a single pile, then compare the volume to your memory of what it looked like in the kitchen? Or how about the serving size of the meat or fish you like? Or is this too difficult?
ETA
I perceive mom & pop as a small corner place like a bistro or such.
No one had to use seat belts before seat belt laws - why should they have to? Anyone could drink and drive before drinking and driving laws - why stop? Um - cause it helps...
Restaurants don't need to be personally responsible, just the people you want to mock do? So some people need to be more personaly responsible than others? If a restaurant is generating truly unhealthy food, they should be accountable.
I generate my own recipes on MFPs recipe generator. I have actually measured my tablespoons (pour out chia by the tablespoon - it's just as easy to use as a scoop) and 1/2 cups for food (when I enter, then I eyeball, then a few months later I recheck .) The calorie counts/measurements are correct, or I would stop losing weight. The food I weigh (which isn't much), I weigh every time I eat it (serving sizes that don't work in measuring cups, like 1/2 grapefruit, or an apple). It takes less than a minute to measure things, and is almost essential to some recipes for a good balance of flavours, or chemistry. It really is not difficult - that's my point. It's easy, it helps, why not? Respectfully disagreeing
What restaurant is forcing food down people's throats that they need to be held accountable? Are these people not willingly patronizing these places and willingly ordering these supposed unhealthy foods? What makes a good unhealthy and how can you establish that without how it fits into the context of one's total diet and how much of it?
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If I ever get this anal over eating at a restaurant, someone please put me out of my misery.0
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goddessofawesome wrote: »I find this a lot less clunky than MFPs recipe builder. It really only takes minutes per recipe, a lot less time than it takes to cook the food. It would be pretty straightforward for a Mom & Pop to put the info together, and would probably be less than an hour or so for a full menu (and if they take pride in their menu, they would probably enjoy it - we obsess over what we love). If the Mom & Pops can't afford an hour of time to help out their consumers, they are probably doomed anyways. Holding others to account is a part of personal responsibility. The Moms and Pop's have just as much responsibility as the rest of us.
The point is that many mom & pop restaurant chefs don't weigh and measure the ingredients and just go by taste and there's nothing wrong with that. And I don't agree that they would "enjoy" measuring out everything and writing down every single little ingredient right down to how much salt they used because it would take the fun out of their creativity.
I don't go out to my local restaurants under the guise that the steak that's in a caramelized onion and mushroom sauce, risotto and vegetables is going to be low in calories nor do I think they should be forced to state what the calories are in that meal. If I really wanted to know then I'd make the same meal at home and weigh and measure all the ingredients. I go out to eat for the experience and if I want something low-cal then I'll ask the chef to adjust it accordingly (ie: don't butter the steamed veggies, skip sauces or get it on the side, get a side salad or extra veggies in lieu of potatoes).
Restaurants shouldn't be held responsible for calorie counts on menus. They never had so why start now? The CONSUMER should be held responsible for what they put in their mouth, not eating everything on their plate and exercising.
Let's not forget all the restaurants that are unique establishments (as opposed to often soul-less chain eateries) in the sense that they change their menu on a regular basis, perhaps never to serve the same exact stuff again...
I don't know if this is a cultural thing, but I seriously perceive this whole "Restaurants have to take responsibility" as something as utterly dense as "Beware hot contents" on coffee-mug lids. Have people forgotten how to use their brains already?
How about learning while you (general you) go, make it a real lifestyle change, and take responsibility of what is on your plate. By that I mean that next time you chop a tomato, chuck it into a measuring cup so you see how much a medium-sized tomato fills of the volume. Maybe it's possible to apply that same knowledge when you eat a salad and in your mind can scoop all the tomato bits into a single pile, then compare the volume to your memory of what it looked like in the kitchen? Or how about the serving size of the meat or fish you like? Or is this too difficult?
ETA
I perceive mom & pop as a small corner place like a bistro or such.
No one had to use seat belts before seat belt laws - why should they have to? Anyone could drink and drive before drinking and driving laws - why stop? Um - cause it helps...
Restaurants don't need to be personally responsible, just the people you want to mock do? So some people need to be more personaly responsible than others? If a restaurant is generating truly unhealthy food, they should be accountable.
I generate my own recipes on MFPs recipe generator. I have actually measured my tablespoons (pour out chia by the tablespoon - it's just as easy to use as a scoop) and 1/2 cups for food (when I enter, then I eyeball, then a few months later I recheck .) The calorie counts/measurements are correct, or I would stop losing weight. The food I weigh (which isn't much), I weigh every time I eat it (serving sizes that don't work in measuring cups, like 1/2 grapefruit, or an apple). It takes less than a minute to measure things, and is almost essential to some recipes for a good balance of flavours, or chemistry. It really is not difficult - that's my point. It's easy, it helps, why not? Respectfully disagreeing
they have their own responsibilities- to themselves and the governing bodies- FDA/OSHA/EPA/Fire Marshall/Town/City Zoning etc etc...
their job is to make a profit- by selling delicious food- not baby you.0 -
GiveMeCoffee wrote: »GiveMeCoffee wrote: »GiveMeCoffee wrote: »SkepticalOwl wrote: »It occurs to me that though many are saying that a government mandate to provide nutrition information is getting in the way of business, the mandate will actually make a free market in restaurant meals a possibility. The concept of the free market, and the idea of the "invisible hand" guiding it, presupposes perfect information on the part of the consumer. Arguing against people having more information on which to base their purchasing decisions is actually arguing against the most effective part of the capitalist system.
So arguing against government mandating calorie counts, is actually arguing against capitalism/the free market? Interesting
Can you please post where you got this idea?
Wouldn't it be something like, if consumers actually wanted this information they would stop buying from those establishments and if enough stopped purchasing the establishments would then give them the information they wanted ?
Your assumption that all consumers know what kind of knowledge they need to know to make informed decisions is adorable.
So you feel all consumers are not smart enough to make decisions for themselves and need the government to handle everything for us?
1) I think people who don't know what to ask for won't ask for it, re the post I originally responded to.
2) Haha, I'm out of this thread, if it's down to comments like that.
You make a condescending remark calling something adorable????
But yet I ask you a question and all your do is run out of the thread? I thought it was an honest question to your post.
You are saying people are too stupid to ask questions and that we don't know what we want.. so we need the government to regulate everything to save the stupid people... or at least that is how your comment comes across. Please elaborate if that is not what you meant.
No that's pretty much what I meant
Ok though for real. Our bodies - our fat cells and metabolic systems and taste buds - are optimized to maximize our body fat because that helped us survive periods of famine. That's why we get fat and stay fat without some special commitment like daily calorie counting (which was a serious pain in the butt before e.g. mfp). That's why we love the kinds of things that make us fat. This happens without us really thinking about it.
Also, companies make money off of this fact. That's how they make a whack of profit, is by taking advantage of our fat cells and taste buds.
Calorie counting is a pain in the butt. Most people are ignorant of how to eat in a way that will help them not get or stay fat. Even when they know, it's hard, because body and mind fight it.
It's not that people are 'stupid', it's that 1) we have to fight a) our bodies and b) strong incentives by food manufacturers, advertisers and restaurants to not be fat, and 2) losing weight and keeping it off is really hard (not difficult, it's simple, but learning all the things you need to know to do it isn't easy and takes a lot of change for a lot of people).
So any help we can get, like governments forcing companies to make information available, is good
Because companies don't want us to think about how their food makes us fat. Because they make money off us not thinking about it.
No companies didn't make us fat, government forcing companies won't make us skinny. Learning how to lose weight isn't difficult, people make it difficult, but it's not. Sticking with it can be hard, but doesn't have to be miserable.
We got fat because we eat way too much of everything, we drive most places, we don't even get up anymore to change channels we all have remotes for everything. We are lazy.
Calorie counting is very easy to me, enter it adjust slightly done. It works and if you keep it simple its actually easy.
If I go into a restaurant and know I want to stay around my goals for the day and I have the choice between grilled chicken or fettucine alfredo .. I can make an easy pick on which one will better fit my goals for that day. Now if I go in and just finished a long bike ride I can easily go with the alfredo.
The more government gets involved and takes control the less people think for themselves and the more excuses you give people for not controlling their lives, their health and deciding whats best for them.
We need to stop blaming food companies, sugar, restaurants, the government, or whatever and whoever else for our poor decisions
oooooomg my head i can't with this
No one is blaming food companies, etc, they are just asking for the information they need to make quality health decisions. That is taking personal responsibility.
Many decisions the government makes have the ability to change lives for the better. Why stop the progress?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20117612 - smoke free policies reduce number of employees that smoke
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC117468/ Folic acid supplementation of wheat leads to lower rates of neural tube defects
http://home.trafficresourcecenter.org/Impaired-Driving/Impaired-Driving-Campaigns.aspx High visibility ``Counter-attack`` drinking driving checks reduce numbers of drinking drivers and car accident fatalities
The government can be a force that effectively reduces death, illness, injury, and disability through social programs. If you don`t want it to, then you can move to a country that takes no responsibility for it`s citizens (just don`t count on access to safe water, drivable roads, safe working conditions, or safe hospitals). Or, you could vote the other way. At this point we have a government that believes in making interventions that improve the overall health outcomes of the population. These decisions take time and money, but when they save lives they are worth it. And what we are talking about is an information campaign. That gets people thinking for themselves more effectively than struggling along without any information. Asking for nutritional information at restaurants is showing personal responsibility, not avoiding it.
In your first study, how did they control for cigarette tax increases during the same period?
and it doesn't even support your argument as it looked at both public and private, "Smokefree policies include private-sector rules and
public-sector regulations that prohibit smoking in indoor
workspaces and designated public areas."
your 2nd study? LOL, does not support your position either
"We used a population-based retrospective study design to study all live births, stillbirths and terminated pregnancies in which open NTDs had occurred in Nova Scotia from Jan. 1, 1991, to Dec. 31, 2000."
The traffic studies are correlations which does not equal causation
Where are your studies showing calorie counts change consumer behaviors?
Still not very good at this presenting research to support your argument thing
I don't think you understand my position. I was stating that social policy can improve health outcomes in a population. Whether or not it was through taxes my position is confirmed.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm4843a2.htm
"Reductions in smoking result from many factors, including scientific evidence of the relation among disease, tobacco use, and environmental exposure to tobacco; dissemination of this information to the public; surveillance and evaluation of prevention and cessation programs; campaigns by advocates for nonsmokers' rights; restrictions on cigarette advertising; counteradvertising; policy changes (i.e., enforcement of minors' access laws, legislation restricting smoking in public places, and increased taxation); improvements in treatment and prevention programs; and an increased understanding of the economic costs of tobacco.
My second study also confirmed government action can prevent disability and death.
Acting like we learn nothing from correlation is facetious. There will never be perfect causation studies on drunk driving, as no one would knowingly set up situations to promote it. Correlation results have led to sound public decisions. Do you really think it would be better to stop the drinking driving counter attacks and have more driving deaths? Don't mock things that save lives, it's unattractive.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3436500/ Nutritional interventions improve dietary outcomes
Where are your studies that say that nutritional information doesn't change consumer behaviour? I know it has changed mine.
I know you like to shut people down by demanding studies, then stating the studies have flaws. This may be news to you, but everything has flaws. Unless you are willing to show me yours, I can only assume your point of view is based solely on the the predjudices that you are unwilling to challenge in yourself. I, however have presented evidence generated by people with a lot more knowleged and experience in these areas than both of us.
We both live in interventionist societies, and have benefitted from it. Ranting about personal responsibility does not change anything and does not help anyone. It is very possible, and convinient for consumers, for restaurants to give nutritional information, and everyone on this website has adjusted their eating habits in response to nutritional information (otherwise why bother logging). This is something that actually happens, and we know it. Was there a point to this argument? Respectfully arguing
Ranting about personal responsibility is what is needed most of all. All of you that can't make an educated decision based on what you know about nutrition without them giving their made up numbers is laughable.
I just went out to eat no nutritional information... I looked at gnocchi with meatballs or balsamic glazed salmon. I made a choice based on 1. What I enjoy 2. Knowledge I have acquired over tracking to get a good estimate as to where it would put me.
If I was wrong whats the worst that happens I go over slightly for a day? I made a decision and I take responsibility.
The government already has too much say in my personal life I don't need them in this. Restaurants have a responsibility to keep their business going, they do not have responsibility to help me lose weight or whatever else. If you must have nutritional information go to a restaurant that offers that.0 -
goddessofawesome wrote: »I find this a lot less clunky than MFPs recipe builder. It really only takes minutes per recipe, a lot less time than it takes to cook the food. It would be pretty straightforward for a Mom & Pop to put the info together, and would probably be less than an hour or so for a full menu (and if they take pride in their menu, they would probably enjoy it - we obsess over what we love). If the Mom & Pops can't afford an hour of time to help out their consumers, they are probably doomed anyways. Holding others to account is a part of personal responsibility. The Moms and Pop's have just as much responsibility as the rest of us.
The point is that many mom & pop restaurant chefs don't weigh and measure the ingredients and just go by taste and there's nothing wrong with that. And I don't agree that they would "enjoy" measuring out everything and writing down every single little ingredient right down to how much salt they used because it would take the fun out of their creativity.
I don't go out to my local restaurants under the guise that the steak that's in a caramelized onion and mushroom sauce, risotto and vegetables is going to be low in calories nor do I think they should be forced to state what the calories are in that meal. If I really wanted to know then I'd make the same meal at home and weigh and measure all the ingredients. I go out to eat for the experience and if I want something low-cal then I'll ask the chef to adjust it accordingly (ie: don't butter the steamed veggies, skip sauces or get it on the side, get a side salad or extra veggies in lieu of potatoes).
Restaurants shouldn't be held responsible for calorie counts on menus. They never had so why start now? The CONSUMER should be held responsible for what they put in their mouth, not eating everything on their plate and exercising.
Let's not forget all the restaurants that are unique establishments (as opposed to often soul-less chain eateries) in the sense that they change their menu on a regular basis, perhaps never to serve the same exact stuff again...
I don't know if this is a cultural thing, but I seriously perceive this whole "Restaurants have to take responsibility" as something as utterly dense as "Beware hot contents" on coffee-mug lids. Have people forgotten how to use their brains already?
How about learning while you (general you) go, make it a real lifestyle change, and take responsibility of what is on your plate. By that I mean that next time you chop a tomato, chuck it into a measuring cup so you see how much a medium-sized tomato fills of the volume. Maybe it's possible to apply that same knowledge when you eat a salad and in your mind can scoop all the tomato bits into a single pile, then compare the volume to your memory of what it looked like in the kitchen? Or how about the serving size of the meat or fish you like? Or is this too difficult?
ETA
I perceive mom & pop as a small corner place like a bistro or such.
No one had to use seat belts before seat belt laws - why should they have to? Anyone could drink and drive before drinking and driving laws - why stop? Um - cause it helps...
Restaurants don't need to be personally responsible, just the people you want to mock do? So some people need to be more personaly responsible than others? If a restaurant is generating truly unhealthy food, they should be accountable.
I generate my own recipes on MFPs recipe generator. I have actually measured my tablespoons (pour out chia by the tablespoon - it's just as easy to use as a scoop) and 1/2 cups for food (when I enter, then I eyeball, then a few months later I recheck .) The calorie counts/measurements are correct, or I would stop losing weight. The food I weigh (which isn't much), I weigh every time I eat it (serving sizes that don't work in measuring cups, like 1/2 grapefruit, or an apple). It takes less than a minute to measure things, and is almost essential to some recipes for a good balance of flavours, or chemistry. It really is not difficult - that's my point. It's easy, it helps, why not? Respectfully disagreeing
What you do in your own kitchen for you and possibly your family is not at all what happens in a professional kitchen run by professional chefs. It's apples and oranges.0 -
KGRebelRanch wrote: »If I ever get this anal over eating at a restaurant, someone please put me out of my misery.
+1,0000 -
GiveMeCoffee wrote: »GiveMeCoffee wrote: »GiveMeCoffee wrote: »SkepticalOwl wrote: »It occurs to me that though many are saying that a government mandate to provide nutrition information is getting in the way of business, the mandate will actually make a free market in restaurant meals a possibility. The concept of the free market, and the idea of the "invisible hand" guiding it, presupposes perfect information on the part of the consumer. Arguing against people having more information on which to base their purchasing decisions is actually arguing against the most effective part of the capitalist system.
So arguing against government mandating calorie counts, is actually arguing against capitalism/the free market? Interesting
Can you please post where you got this idea?
Wouldn't it be something like, if consumers actually wanted this information they would stop buying from those establishments and if enough stopped purchasing the establishments would then give them the information they wanted ?
Your assumption that all consumers know what kind of knowledge they need to know to make informed decisions is adorable.
So you feel all consumers are not smart enough to make decisions for themselves and need the government to handle everything for us?
1) I think people who don't know what to ask for won't ask for it, re the post I originally responded to.
2) Haha, I'm out of this thread, if it's down to comments like that.
You make a condescending remark calling something adorable????
But yet I ask you a question and all your do is run out of the thread? I thought it was an honest question to your post.
You are saying people are too stupid to ask questions and that we don't know what we want.. so we need the government to regulate everything to save the stupid people... or at least that is how your comment comes across. Please elaborate if that is not what you meant.
No that's pretty much what I meant
Ok though for real. Our bodies - our fat cells and metabolic systems and taste buds - are optimized to maximize our body fat because that helped us survive periods of famine. That's why we get fat and stay fat without some special commitment like daily calorie counting (which was a serious pain in the butt before e.g. mfp). That's why we love the kinds of things that make us fat. This happens without us really thinking about it.
Also, companies make money off of this fact. That's how they make a whack of profit, is by taking advantage of our fat cells and taste buds.
Calorie counting is a pain in the butt. Most people are ignorant of how to eat in a way that will help them not get or stay fat. Even when they know, it's hard, because body and mind fight it.
It's not that people are 'stupid', it's that 1) we have to fight a) our bodies and b) strong incentives by food manufacturers, advertisers and restaurants to not be fat, and 2) losing weight and keeping it off is really hard (not difficult, it's simple, but learning all the things you need to know to do it isn't easy and takes a lot of change for a lot of people).
So any help we can get, like governments forcing companies to make information available, is good
Because companies don't want us to think about how their food makes us fat. Because they make money off us not thinking about it.
No companies didn't make us fat, government forcing companies won't make us skinny. Learning how to lose weight isn't difficult, people make it difficult, but it's not. Sticking with it can be hard, but doesn't have to be miserable.
We got fat because we eat way too much of everything, we drive most places, we don't even get up anymore to change channels we all have remotes for everything. We are lazy.
Calorie counting is very easy to me, enter it adjust slightly done. It works and if you keep it simple its actually easy.
If I go into a restaurant and know I want to stay around my goals for the day and I have the choice between grilled chicken or fettucine alfredo .. I can make an easy pick on which one will better fit my goals for that day. Now if I go in and just finished a long bike ride I can easily go with the alfredo.
The more government gets involved and takes control the less people think for themselves and the more excuses you give people for not controlling their lives, their health and deciding whats best for them.
We need to stop blaming food companies, sugar, restaurants, the government, or whatever and whoever else for our poor decisions
oooooomg my head i can't with this
No one is blaming food companies, etc, they are just asking for the information they need to make quality health decisions. That is taking personal responsibility.
Many decisions the government makes have the ability to change lives for the better. Why stop the progress?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20117612 - smoke free policies reduce number of employees that smoke
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC117468/ Folic acid supplementation of wheat leads to lower rates of neural tube defects
http://home.trafficresourcecenter.org/Impaired-Driving/Impaired-Driving-Campaigns.aspx High visibility ``Counter-attack`` drinking driving checks reduce numbers of drinking drivers and car accident fatalities
The government can be a force that effectively reduces death, illness, injury, and disability through social programs. If you don`t want it to, then you can move to a country that takes no responsibility for it`s citizens (just don`t count on access to safe water, drivable roads, safe working conditions, or safe hospitals). Or, you could vote the other way. At this point we have a government that believes in making interventions that improve the overall health outcomes of the population. These decisions take time and money, but when they save lives they are worth it. And what we are talking about is an information campaign. That gets people thinking for themselves more effectively than struggling along without any information. Asking for nutritional information at restaurants is showing personal responsibility, not avoiding it.
In your first study, how did they control for cigarette tax increases during the same period?
and it doesn't even support your argument as it looked at both public and private, "Smokefree policies include private-sector rules and
public-sector regulations that prohibit smoking in indoor
workspaces and designated public areas."
your 2nd study? LOL, does not support your position either
"We used a population-based retrospective study design to study all live births, stillbirths and terminated pregnancies in which open NTDs had occurred in Nova Scotia from Jan. 1, 1991, to Dec. 31, 2000."
The traffic studies are correlations which does not equal causation
Where are your studies showing calorie counts change consumer behaviors?
Still not very good at this presenting research to support your argument thing
I don't think you understand my position. I was stating that social policy can improve health outcomes in a population. Whether or not it was through taxes my position is confirmed.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm4843a2.htm
"Reductions in smoking result from many factors, including scientific evidence of the relation among disease, tobacco use, and environmental exposure to tobacco; dissemination of this information to the public; surveillance and evaluation of prevention and cessation programs; campaigns by advocates for nonsmokers' rights; restrictions on cigarette advertising; counteradvertising; policy changes (i.e., enforcement of minors' access laws, legislation restricting smoking in public places, and increased taxation); improvements in treatment and prevention programs; and an increased understanding of the economic costs of tobacco.
My second study also confirmed government action can prevent disability and death.
Acting like we learn nothing from correlation is facetious. There will never be perfect causation studies on drunk driving, as no one would knowingly set up situations to promote it. Correlation results have led to sound public decisions. Do you really think it would be better to stop the drinking driving counter attacks and have more driving deaths? Don't mock things that save lives, it's unattractive.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3436500/ Nutritional interventions improve dietary outcomes
Where are your studies that say that nutritional information doesn't change consumer behaviour? I know it has changed mine.
I know you like to shut people down by demanding studies, then stating the studies have flaws. This may be news to you, but everything has flaws. Unless you are willing to show me yours, I can only assume your point of view is based solely on the the predjudices that you are unwilling to challenge in yourself. I, however have presented evidence generated by people with a lot more knowleged and experience in these areas than both of us.
We both live in interventionist societies, and have benefitted from it. Ranting about personal responsibility does not change anything and does not help anyone. It is very possible, and convinient for consumers, for restaurants to give nutritional information, and everyone on this website has adjusted their eating habits in response to nutritional information (otherwise why bother logging). This is something that actually happens, and we know it. Was there a point to this argument? Respectfully arguing
Oh - and on cigarette taxes - "One of the most effective means of reducing the prevalence of tobacco use is by increasing federal and state excise tax rates. A 10% increase in the price of cigarettes can lead to a 4% reduction in the demand for cigarettes. This reduction is the result of people smoking fewer cigarettes or quitting altogether (15)" They control by loading the increase of cigarette taxes into the program that calculates the impact of variables and giving it a weight of 10%. That way they can generate a formula that shows if a factor has an impact on behavour. That is how they know that smoking bans reduct the number of smokers in the population 0 -
BeginningAgainMay14 wrote: »
but you're already setting out with a piss poor attitude that some how because it's chalk full of delicious fat- it's unhealthy.... and you are negative to start "they decide how unhealthy they are going to make it? what does that even mean?? They aren't making healthy or unhealthy food- they are making food to sell- and hopefully it's delicious.
So you're saying unhealthy food is not delicious?
I just don't understand your fussiness with claiming it's "unhealthy" because it's got fat and sugar in it? or it's high calorie- or whatever it is that you're claiming unhealthy is (which can we narrow that definition down for me since you seem vague on that).
Of course they aren't going to be the same- no one said- but you pick one that's an average- and guess high.
And go on about your merry way.
Or, you know, they could just tell us what's in their product. Food costs for successful restaurants (and therefore, what is in the dish) are calculated very carefully. It doesn't seem like an excessive burden for a restaurant to share that information with the public.
Heck, MFP has recipe calculator that does the job just fine. The FDA or whatever regulatory body could put up an official calculator for mom and pop establishments and the chefs could whip out their calorie counts for the day in 5 minutes and then post them on their chalkboard right along with the day's specials.
I love the special pleading going on in this thread where 1) Mom and Pop establishments are changing their menu every day and it's too burdensome and 2) Mom and Pop establishments would have to reprint all their menus. You can have one problem, but not both. If your favorite restaurant is changing its menu every day it's either NOT reprinting its menu and has a chalkboard setup, or it IS reprinting its menu and adding the calorie counts costs nothing more than a few extra characters.
lol 5minutes.
The MFP database is so *kitten*, that it takes a lot longer to enter ONE recipe, let alone how many a restaurant would have to enter.
And guess what? Depending how you pack a cup of flour, it weighs between 4-5 ounces. And restaurants don't have the time to use a food scale so the exact weight of flour is used every single time. Same goes for sugar and many other dry ingredients.
You clearly don't spend THAT much time in the kitchen or on the MFP recipe builder if you think a restaurant came upload 2 dozen + recipes, if you think dish is the exact same every single time.
The issue isn't stupidity, it is knowledge versus ignorance. I'm not sure why people are insisting that living in ignorance is more "responsible" than having information available.
http://caloriecount.about.com/cc/recipe_analysis.php
I find this a lot less clunky than MFPs recipe builder. It really only takes minutes per recipe, a lot less time than it takes to cook the food. It would be pretty straightforward for a Mom & Pop to put the info together, and would probably be less than an hour or so for a full menu (and if they take pride in their menu, they would probably enjoy it - we obsess over what we love). If the Mom & Pops can't afford an hour of time to help out their consumers, they are probably doomed anyways. Holding others to account is a part of personal responsibility. The Moms and Pop's have just as much responsibility as the rest of us.
I don't think the restaurants lie that much on their nutritional data. Yes, the amount of flour by cup may vary, but very few servings would have a full cup of flour, for example. I eat out probably about 2 - 4 times a month and log it and, aside from the sodium affecting my water weight, my overall weight loss has not been affected. Inaccuracys would self-correct over time, as consumers with concern for others would bring them to the attention of the restaurant (with a lawsuit if necessary..)
And, to other posters; No one knows how the food is prepared when they walk into a restaurant unless they work there. I was shocked to find out that the spagetti I ate was over 800 calories, with over 40 grams of fat. I can make pasta and sauce for myself at home for less than 400 calories and 5 grams of fat (and it tastes better - ever heard of oregano Denny?).
The nutritional data helps those of us who aren't pyschic to log their meals. And, some of the "personal responsibility" nazis are also logging nazis....How do we log every lick, taste, and smell if we don't have the info?
And, if you think she said her vacation sucked, you need to work on your ability to interpret written information. I can say that having the swimming pool break during my vacation sucked. I mean the loss of the swimming pool sucked, and that only. The reference to my vacation is merely temporal. I may have had a rocking vacation, and the kids had a blast, but found not being able to watch the fireworks from the pool at the end of the day a bit of a downer (kind of like a mixed review).
Gaining weight that will take months to take off can be very frustrating and take a lot of careful nutritional planning for those with low bmrs. Being able to read the nutritional information to make better choices to begin with really is the happier option. Btw, some people can't afford the fancy restaurants (or figure they are a waste of money for kids who would enjoy the chain atmosphere more and would rather have a pizza or hamburger), and that's why they take their kids to a fast food chain. Don't insult kid manners in the forum. It's not what the boards are about, and it is extremely offensive and unnecessarily inflammatory. I personally went the other way, and was so afraid of going over my calories that I lost 8 pounds in a week on our last vacation. It was an amazing trip, but it was a little frustrating to spend so much time hungry.
No insults necessary, just good advice. Do your research before you go to the restaurant, get favorites that you know the calories for, or go for the safest options (seafood, grilled chicken salads with dressing on the side, etc.) Ask that your food be prepared without butter, if that helps keep you in your macros. Many chains have nutritional information, ask to look at it before you order if you want to try something new. Ask for a take home box, and box up half your meal before you start eating. Or, go somewhere with no nutritional information and log as best you can when you get home. Above all, enjoy the good company. See, nice and simple
No one needs, or benefits by, being insulted or mocked for feeling challenged by eating out. No one has to justify their struggles. Going to restaurants can be a little frustrating/scary for people still figuring out how to make that work and stay within their macros. It will be a part of most people's lives, so gaining the knowlege and experience to make it work is a part of the weight loss journey, and, ultimately, an important tool in long term sucessful weight loss and management. With confidence and sound information (not dismissive and insulting platitudes like "personal responsibility" or "willpower"), come sustainable success. Let's all take "personal responsibility" to respectfully build each other up and support each otheron the boards. Whatever you put out there, there is more of to run into
No, no they really don't. They are in business to cook tasty food, not to manage your diet. And if you really think that a whole menu and specials would take less than an hour of labor time, you are sorely mistaken and you aren't accounting for the time it would take to actually measure everything that goes into every dish and the training that would have to happen to get it done correctly (if it is even possible to do it correctly in a high-end professional kitchen).
It's very clear from this post that you have no idea how to run a business or how regulation impacts business - especially small business.
You are also being incredibly self-centered. Have you ever thought that not everyone wants to go out to a fine dinner and have calorie counts in their face? I would guess that if you asked every customer at your local fine dining establishment if they would want to see that, most would say "no."
Maybe having that information in peoples faces would make a difference in one of the most obese nations on the planet...I'm not sure what the new rules are, but a simple "nutritional information available on request" on the menu would be sufficient, and servers could bring the pamphlet to requester, if knowing what you are eating is offensive to you... 0 -
how's that working out?
people still smoking themselves into an early grave.. it put a minor dent in the smoking population.
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Where are your studies that say that nutritional information doesn't change consumer behaviour?
"This review examines 31 studies published from January 1, 2007 through July 19, 2013. It builds on Harnack and French's 2008 review and assesses the evidence on the effectiveness of calorie labeling at the point of purchase. We find that, while there are some positive results reported from studies examining the effects of calorie labeling, overall the best designed studies (real world studies, with a comparison group) show that calorie labels do not have the desired effect in reducing total calories ordered at the population level."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24760208
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GiveMeCoffee wrote: »GiveMeCoffee wrote: »GiveMeCoffee wrote: »SkepticalOwl wrote: »It occurs to me that though many are saying that a government mandate to provide nutrition information is getting in the way of business, the mandate will actually make a free market in restaurant meals a possibility. The concept of the free market, and the idea of the "invisible hand" guiding it, presupposes perfect information on the part of the consumer. Arguing against people having more information on which to base their purchasing decisions is actually arguing against the most effective part of the capitalist system.
So arguing against government mandating calorie counts, is actually arguing against capitalism/the free market? Interesting
Can you please post where you got this idea?
Wouldn't it be something like, if consumers actually wanted this information they would stop buying from those establishments and if enough stopped purchasing the establishments would then give them the information they wanted ?
Your assumption that all consumers know what kind of knowledge they need to know to make informed decisions is adorable.
So you feel all consumers are not smart enough to make decisions for themselves and need the government to handle everything for us?
1) I think people who don't know what to ask for won't ask for it, re the post I originally responded to.
2) Haha, I'm out of this thread, if it's down to comments like that.
You make a condescending remark calling something adorable????
But yet I ask you a question and all your do is run out of the thread? I thought it was an honest question to your post.
You are saying people are too stupid to ask questions and that we don't know what we want.. so we need the government to regulate everything to save the stupid people... or at least that is how your comment comes across. Please elaborate if that is not what you meant.
No that's pretty much what I meant
Ok though for real. Our bodies - our fat cells and metabolic systems and taste buds - are optimized to maximize our body fat because that helped us survive periods of famine. That's why we get fat and stay fat without some special commitment like daily calorie counting (which was a serious pain in the butt before e.g. mfp). That's why we love the kinds of things that make us fat. This happens without us really thinking about it.
Also, companies make money off of this fact. That's how they make a whack of profit, is by taking advantage of our fat cells and taste buds.
Calorie counting is a pain in the butt. Most people are ignorant of how to eat in a way that will help them not get or stay fat. Even when they know, it's hard, because body and mind fight it.
It's not that people are 'stupid', it's that 1) we have to fight a) our bodies and b) strong incentives by food manufacturers, advertisers and restaurants to not be fat, and 2) losing weight and keeping it off is really hard (not difficult, it's simple, but learning all the things you need to know to do it isn't easy and takes a lot of change for a lot of people).
So any help we can get, like governments forcing companies to make information available, is good
Because companies don't want us to think about how their food makes us fat. Because they make money off us not thinking about it.
No companies didn't make us fat, government forcing companies won't make us skinny. Learning how to lose weight isn't difficult, people make it difficult, but it's not. Sticking with it can be hard, but doesn't have to be miserable.
We got fat because we eat way too much of everything, we drive most places, we don't even get up anymore to change channels we all have remotes for everything. We are lazy.
Calorie counting is very easy to me, enter it adjust slightly done. It works and if you keep it simple its actually easy.
If I go into a restaurant and know I want to stay around my goals for the day and I have the choice between grilled chicken or fettucine alfredo .. I can make an easy pick on which one will better fit my goals for that day. Now if I go in and just finished a long bike ride I can easily go with the alfredo.
The more government gets involved and takes control the less people think for themselves and the more excuses you give people for not controlling their lives, their health and deciding whats best for them.
We need to stop blaming food companies, sugar, restaurants, the government, or whatever and whoever else for our poor decisions
oooooomg my head i can't with this
No one is blaming food companies, etc, they are just asking for the information they need to make quality health decisions. That is taking personal responsibility.
Many decisions the government makes have the ability to change lives for the better. Why stop the progress?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20117612 - smoke free policies reduce number of employees that smoke
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC117468/ Folic acid supplementation of wheat leads to lower rates of neural tube defects
http://home.trafficresourcecenter.org/Impaired-Driving/Impaired-Driving-Campaigns.aspx High visibility ``Counter-attack`` drinking driving checks reduce numbers of drinking drivers and car accident fatalities
The government can be a force that effectively reduces death, illness, injury, and disability through social programs. If you don`t want it to, then you can move to a country that takes no responsibility for it`s citizens (just don`t count on access to safe water, drivable roads, safe working conditions, or safe hospitals). Or, you could vote the other way. At this point we have a government that believes in making interventions that improve the overall health outcomes of the population. These decisions take time and money, but when they save lives they are worth it. And what we are talking about is an information campaign. That gets people thinking for themselves more effectively than struggling along without any information. Asking for nutritional information at restaurants is showing personal responsibility, not avoiding it.
In your first study, how did they control for cigarette tax increases during the same period?
and it doesn't even support your argument as it looked at both public and private, "Smokefree policies include private-sector rules and
public-sector regulations that prohibit smoking in indoor
workspaces and designated public areas."
your 2nd study? LOL, does not support your position either
"We used a population-based retrospective study design to study all live births, stillbirths and terminated pregnancies in which open NTDs had occurred in Nova Scotia from Jan. 1, 1991, to Dec. 31, 2000."
The traffic studies are correlations which does not equal causation
Where are your studies showing calorie counts change consumer behaviors?
Still not very good at this presenting research to support your argument thing
I don't think you understand my position. I was stating that social policy can improve health outcomes in a population. Whether or not it was through taxes my position is confirmed.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm4843a2.htm
"Reductions in smoking result from many factors, including scientific evidence of the relation among disease, tobacco use, and environmental exposure to tobacco; dissemination of this information to the public; surveillance and evaluation of prevention and cessation programs; campaigns by advocates for nonsmokers' rights; restrictions on cigarette advertising; counteradvertising; policy changes (i.e., enforcement of minors' access laws, legislation restricting smoking in public places, and increased taxation); improvements in treatment and prevention programs; and an increased understanding of the economic costs of tobacco.
My second study also confirmed government action can prevent disability and death.
Acting like we learn nothing from correlation is facetious. There will never be perfect causation studies on drunk driving, as no one would knowingly set up situations to promote it. Correlation results have led to sound public decisions. Do you really think it would be better to stop the drinking driving counter attacks and have more driving deaths? Don't mock things that save lives, it's unattractive.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3436500/ Nutritional interventions improve dietary outcomes
Where are your studies that say that nutritional information doesn't change consumer behaviour? I know it has changed mine.
I know you like to shut people down by demanding studies, then stating the studies have flaws. This may be news to you, but everything has flaws. Unless you are willing to show me yours, I can only assume your point of view is based solely on the the predjudices that you are unwilling to challenge in yourself. I, however have presented evidence generated by people with a lot more knowleged and experience in these areas than both of us.
We both live in interventionist societies, and have benefitted from it. Ranting about personal responsibility does not change anything and does not help anyone. It is very possible, and convinient for consumers, for restaurants to give nutritional information, and everyone on this website has adjusted their eating habits in response to nutritional information (otherwise why bother logging). This is something that actually happens, and we know it. Was there a point to this argument? Respectfully arguing
Oh - and on cigarette taxes - "One of the most effective means of reducing the prevalence of tobacco use is by increasing federal and state excise tax rates. A 10% increase in the price of cigarettes can lead to a 4% reduction in the demand for cigarettes. This reduction is the result of people smoking fewer cigarettes or quitting altogether (15)" They control by loading the increase of cigarette taxes into the program that calculates the impact of variables and giving it a weight of 10%. That way they can generate a formula that shows if a factor has an impact on behavour. That is how they know that smoking bans reduct the number of smokers in the population
Did you read the reference paper? And how familiar with econometrics are you?
"Recently, Moore (1996) developed a more sophisticated econometric model that,
incorporating state-level data on death rates from smoking-related diseases from 1954
through 1988, could be used to evaluate the impact of higher taxes on mortality. He
determined that a 10% increase in cigarette excise taxes would save approximately 5,200
lives each year."
So again this doesn't support smoking bans reduce the # of smokers in population, as it is a correlation.0 -
The issue isn't stupidity, it is knowledge versus ignorance. I'm not sure why people are insisting that living in ignorance is more "responsible" than having information available.
again- you are not ignorant- you KNOW when you walk in there- it's not going to be home made- cutting corners to save calories- it's going to be butter and salt rich- delicious and much bigger portions.
that is the knowledge you NEED to have- and you refuse to accept that.I eat out probably about 2 - 4 times a month and log it and, aside from the sodium affecting my water weight, my overall weight loss has not been affected. Inaccuracys would self-correct over time, as consumers with concern for others would bring them to the attention of the restaurant (with a lawsuit if necessary..)
you're absolutely correct- and with that knowledge- I am capable of managing/manipulating my diet equally as well as you- and I eat out WEEKLY- and usually we go hit up all you can eat sushi or all you can eat brazillian at LEAST once a month- if not twice.
No, I really don't KNOW what is in the food or how it is prepared. I'm not a professional chef, I don't work at that restaurant, and I'm not psychic. When I prepare my own versions of the food I see at the restaurant it is almost always lower calorie and much lower fat, and I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I can guestimate, but that's hit or miss, and I can see how that would be stressful for some (especially if they've recently read posts slamming inaccurate logging).
Is the sushi thing what they call food bragging? I'm not sure what the point is...Some people have smaller deficits than others, so....let's just be gentle and supportive of people trying to improve their health (taking personal responsibility)? 0 -
Here's an example where a social campaign successfully changed people's eating habits.
http://thrive.preventioninstitute.org/CHI_one.html
This was more effective than labeling probably because the message was focused. Who can decide what to pay attention to on a nutrition label?
I heard a chef describe how he serves foods that people can't readily make at home. Hence the deep-fat fryer. They are serving what we will buy, after all.
With the anti-carb craze came lettuce wrapped burgers. So restaurants will cater to market demands.
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BeginningAgainMay14 wrote: »
but you're already setting out with a piss poor attitude that some how because it's chalk full of delicious fat- it's unhealthy.... and you are negative to start "they decide how unhealthy they are going to make it? what does that even mean?? They aren't making healthy or unhealthy food- they are making food to sell- and hopefully it's delicious.
So you're saying unhealthy food is not delicious?
I just don't understand your fussiness with claiming it's "unhealthy" because it's got fat and sugar in it? or it's high calorie- or whatever it is that you're claiming unhealthy is (which can we narrow that definition down for me since you seem vague on that).
Of course they aren't going to be the same- no one said- but you pick one that's an average- and guess high.
And go on about your merry way.
Or, you know, they could just tell us what's in their product. Food costs for successful restaurants (and therefore, what is in the dish) are calculated very carefully. It doesn't seem like an excessive burden for a restaurant to share that information with the public.
Heck, MFP has recipe calculator that does the job just fine. The FDA or whatever regulatory body could put up an official calculator for mom and pop establishments and the chefs could whip out their calorie counts for the day in 5 minutes and then post them on their chalkboard right along with the day's specials.
I love the special pleading going on in this thread where 1) Mom and Pop establishments are changing their menu every day and it's too burdensome and 2) Mom and Pop establishments would have to reprint all their menus. You can have one problem, but not both. If your favorite restaurant is changing its menu every day it's either NOT reprinting its menu and has a chalkboard setup, or it IS reprinting its menu and adding the calorie counts costs nothing more than a few extra characters.
lol 5minutes.
The MFP database is so *kitten*, that it takes a lot longer to enter ONE recipe, let alone how many a restaurant would have to enter.
And guess what? Depending how you pack a cup of flour, it weighs between 4-5 ounces. And restaurants don't have the time to use a food scale so the exact weight of flour is used every single time. Same goes for sugar and many other dry ingredients.
You clearly don't spend THAT much time in the kitchen or on the MFP recipe builder if you think a restaurant came upload 2 dozen + recipes, if you think dish is the exact same every single time.
The issue isn't stupidity, it is knowledge versus ignorance. I'm not sure why people are insisting that living in ignorance is more "responsible" than having information available.
http://caloriecount.about.com/cc/recipe_analysis.php
I find this a lot less clunky than MFPs recipe builder. It really only takes minutes per recipe, a lot less time than it takes to cook the food. It would be pretty straightforward for a Mom & Pop to put the info together, and would probably be less than an hour or so for a full menu (and if they take pride in their menu, they would probably enjoy it - we obsess over what we love). If the Mom & Pops can't afford an hour of time to help out their consumers, they are probably doomed anyways. Holding others to account is a part of personal responsibility. The Moms and Pop's have just as much responsibility as the rest of us.
I don't think the restaurants lie that much on their nutritional data. Yes, the amount of flour by cup may vary, but very few servings would have a full cup of flour, for example. I eat out probably about 2 - 4 times a month and log it and, aside from the sodium affecting my water weight, my overall weight loss has not been affected. Inaccuracys would self-correct over time, as consumers with concern for others would bring them to the attention of the restaurant (with a lawsuit if necessary..)
And, to other posters; No one knows how the food is prepared when they walk into a restaurant unless they work there. I was shocked to find out that the spagetti I ate was over 800 calories, with over 40 grams of fat. I can make pasta and sauce for myself at home for less than 400 calories and 5 grams of fat (and it tastes better - ever heard of oregano Denny?).
The nutritional data helps those of us who aren't pyschic to log their meals. And, some of the "personal responsibility" nazis are also logging nazis....How do we log every lick, taste, and smell if we don't have the info?
And, if you think she said her vacation sucked, you need to work on your ability to interpret written information. I can say that having the swimming pool break during my vacation sucked. I mean the loss of the swimming pool sucked, and that only. The reference to my vacation is merely temporal. I may have had a rocking vacation, and the kids had a blast, but found not being able to watch the fireworks from the pool at the end of the day a bit of a downer (kind of like a mixed review).
Gaining weight that will take months to take off can be very frustrating and take a lot of careful nutritional planning for those with low bmrs. Being able to read the nutritional information to make better choices to begin with really is the happier option. Btw, some people can't afford the fancy restaurants (or figure they are a waste of money for kids who would enjoy the chain atmosphere more and would rather have a pizza or hamburger), and that's why they take their kids to a fast food chain. Don't insult kid manners in the forum. It's not what the boards are about, and it is extremely offensive and unnecessarily inflammatory. I personally went the other way, and was so afraid of going over my calories that I lost 8 pounds in a week on our last vacation. It was an amazing trip, but it was a little frustrating to spend so much time hungry.
No insults necessary, just good advice. Do your research before you go to the restaurant, get favorites that you know the calories for, or go for the safest options (seafood, grilled chicken salads with dressing on the side, etc.) Ask that your food be prepared without butter, if that helps keep you in your macros. Many chains have nutritional information, ask to look at it before you order if you want to try something new. Ask for a take home box, and box up half your meal before you start eating. Or, go somewhere with no nutritional information and log as best you can when you get home. Above all, enjoy the good company. See, nice and simple
No one needs, or benefits by, being insulted or mocked for feeling challenged by eating out. No one has to justify their struggles. Going to restaurants can be a little frustrating/scary for people still figuring out how to make that work and stay within their macros. It will be a part of most people's lives, so gaining the knowlege and experience to make it work is a part of the weight loss journey, and, ultimately, an important tool in long term sucessful weight loss and management. With confidence and sound information (not dismissive and insulting platitudes like "personal responsibility" or "willpower"), come sustainable success. Let's all take "personal responsibility" to respectfully build each other up and support each otheron the boards. Whatever you put out there, there is more of to run into
No, no they really don't. They are in business to cook tasty food, not to manage your diet. And if you really think that a whole menu and specials would take less than an hour of labor time, you are sorely mistaken and you aren't accounting for the time it would take to actually measure everything that goes into every dish and the training that would have to happen to get it done correctly (if it is even possible to do it correctly in a high-end professional kitchen).
It's very clear from this post that you have no idea how to run a business or how regulation impacts business - especially small business.
You are also being incredibly self-centered. Have you ever thought that not everyone wants to go out to a fine dinner and have calorie counts in their face? I would guess that if you asked every customer at your local fine dining establishment if they would want to see that, most would say "no."
Maybe having that information in peoples faces would make a difference in one of the most obese nations on the planet...I'm not sure what the new rules are, but a simple "nutritional information available on request" on the menu would be sufficient, and servers could bring the pamphlet to requester, if knowing what you are eating is offensive to you...
That doesn't change the fact that it places an unnecessary burden and expense on the business, which is only further aggravated by the fact that most of their customers don't want the info in the first place.
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The issue isn't stupidity, it is knowledge versus ignorance. I'm not sure why people are insisting that living in ignorance is more "responsible" than having information available.
again- you are not ignorant- you KNOW when you walk in there- it's not going to be home made- cutting corners to save calories- it's going to be butter and salt rich- delicious and much bigger portions.
that is the knowledge you NEED to have- and you refuse to accept that.I eat out probably about 2 - 4 times a month and log it and, aside from the sodium affecting my water weight, my overall weight loss has not been affected. Inaccuracys would self-correct over time, as consumers with concern for others would bring them to the attention of the restaurant (with a lawsuit if necessary..)
you're absolutely correct- and with that knowledge- I am capable of managing/manipulating my diet equally as well as you- and I eat out WEEKLY- and usually we go hit up all you can eat sushi or all you can eat brazillian at LEAST once a month- if not twice.
No, I really don't KNOW what is in the food or how it is prepared. I'm not a professional chef, I don't work at that restaurant, and I'm not psychic. When I prepare my own versions of the food I see at the restaurant it is almost always lower calorie and much lower fat, and I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I can guestimate, but that's hit or miss, and I can see how that would be stressful for some (especially if they've recently read posts slamming inaccurate logging).
Is the sushi thing what they call food bragging? I'm not sure what the point is...Some people have smaller deficits than others, so....let's just be gentle and supportive of people trying to improve their health (taking personal responsibility)?
And this right here is why you should not be commenting on 1) how "easy" it would be for a restaurant to provide this information and 2 ) restaurant finances.0 -
Well, a few restaurant chains lost my business when they chose not to publish the nutritional content of their meals.0
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how's that working out?
people still smoking themselves into an early grave.. it put a minor dent in the smoking population.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm4843a2.htm
"An important accomplishment of the second half of the 20th century has been the reduction of smoking prevalence among persons aged greater than or equal to 18 years from 42.4% in 1965 to 24.7% in 1997, with the rate for men (27.6%) higher than for women (22.1%)"
Smoking has been reduced almost by half. That's huge. Yay us 0 -
That doesn't change the fact that it places an unnecessary burden and expense on the business, which is only further aggravated by the fact that most of their customers don't want the info in the first place.
I don't think there's evidence that customers don't "want". That would mean people actively avoid places that do provide nutritional info.
There is plenty, however, that they really don't care much, which only requires not avoiding places that don't.
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Well, a few restaurant chains lost my business when they chose not to publish the nutritional content of their meals.
And that is your choice to make. Myself I think I might boycott a few of my restaurants if nutritional info was glaring at me when I was trying to decide cause sometimes I just don't care.
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That doesn't change the fact that it places an unnecessary burden and expense on the business, which is only further aggravated by the fact that most of their customers don't want the info in the first place.
I don't think there's evidence that customers don't "want".
There is plenty, however, that they really don't care much.
Fair enough.
I would still hypothesize (and I admit, it's a hypothesis), that if you asked customers at a fine dining, local business restaurant if they want to see the calories they would say no. Because, it's a treat. No one wants to go to a fancy restaurant and spend the money to censor themselves.0 -
The issue isn't stupidity, it is knowledge versus ignorance. I'm not sure why people are insisting that living in ignorance is more "responsible" than having information available.
again- you are not ignorant- you KNOW when you walk in there- it's not going to be home made- cutting corners to save calories- it's going to be butter and salt rich- delicious and much bigger portions.
that is the knowledge you NEED to have- and you refuse to accept that.I eat out probably about 2 - 4 times a month and log it and, aside from the sodium affecting my water weight, my overall weight loss has not been affected. Inaccuracys would self-correct over time, as consumers with concern for others would bring them to the attention of the restaurant (with a lawsuit if necessary..)
you're absolutely correct- and with that knowledge- I am capable of managing/manipulating my diet equally as well as you- and I eat out WEEKLY- and usually we go hit up all you can eat sushi or all you can eat brazillian at LEAST once a month- if not twice.
No, I really don't KNOW what is in the food or how it is prepared. I'm not a professional chef, I don't work at that restaurant, and I'm not psychic. When I prepare my own versions of the food I see at the restaurant it is almost always lower calorie and much lower fat, and I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I can guestimate, but that's hit or miss, and I can see how that would be stressful for some (especially if they've recently read posts slamming inaccurate logging).
Is the sushi thing what they call food bragging? I'm not sure what the point is...Some people have smaller deficits than others, so....let's just be gentle and supportive of people trying to improve their health (taking personal responsibility)?
I don't agree with anything in the previous quote. The biggest gift a person can give herself is knowledge, because that cuts a whole lot of dependencies. Estimate when you're not sure (if many have learned to do so before you it isn't impossible for you to learn those survival skills either) and bake the uncertainty into your weekly/monthly calorie counting.
Take charge and depend on your own judgement. Read and learn, use the scale when cooking for yourself and pay attention. That is a lifestyle change in this context if you ask me. You shouldn't depend on kindness of others, but on self-kindness; what you can do for yourself and how you can treat you to become the best me you can be.
Go with the flow, everything isn't ruined if you happen to underestimate calories eaten at a restaurant. Add a tablespoon or two of olive oil or butter, if you think the restaurant kitchen may have been generous in the fats department. It doesn't have to be more difficult than this, but if you enjoy making things complicated, do remember not everyone else does.0 -
GiveMeCoffee wrote: »Well, a few restaurant chains lost my business when they chose not to publish the nutritional content of their meals.
And that is your choice to make. Myself I think I might boycott a few of my restaurants if nutritional info was glaring at me when I was trying to decide cause sometimes I just don't care.
If I were a chef, such a customer would actually be a real horror to cross paths with. It's like going to the dentist and wanting to know all the components of a filling, or to the hair dresser and asking what all the stuff is in the shampoo etc. that she's using, including the watt of the dryer so you're certain she won't burn your hair.0 -
GiveMeCoffee wrote: »Well, a few restaurant chains lost my business when they chose not to publish the nutritional content of their meals.
And that is your choice to make. Myself I think I might boycott a few of my restaurants if nutritional info was glaring at me when I was trying to decide cause sometimes I just don't care.
If I were a chef, such a customer would actually be a real horror to cross paths with.
You see these people at farmers markets all the time. They want - nay, EXPECT - the full life cycle story on every ingredient in a $1.50 croissant.
Avoid such customers at all costs...
0 -
GiveMeCoffee wrote: »Well, a few restaurant chains lost my business when they chose not to publish the nutritional content of their meals.
And that is your choice to make. Myself I think I might boycott a few of my restaurants if nutritional info was glaring at me when I was trying to decide cause sometimes I just don't care.
If I were a chef, such a customer would actually be a real horror to cross paths with. It's like going to the dentist and wanting to know all the components of a filling, or to the hair dresser and asking what all the stuff is in the shampoo etc. that she's using, including the watt of the dryer so you're certain she won't burn your hair.
It would be the worst! Just think about how such a regulation, and fear of litigation, would stifle innovation?0 -
The issue isn't stupidity, it is knowledge versus ignorance. I'm not sure why people are insisting that living in ignorance is more "responsible" than having information available.
again- you are not ignorant- you KNOW when you walk in there- it's not going to be home made- cutting corners to save calories- it's going to be butter and salt rich- delicious and much bigger portions.
that is the knowledge you NEED to have- and you refuse to accept that.I eat out probably about 2 - 4 times a month and log it and, aside from the sodium affecting my water weight, my overall weight loss has not been affected. Inaccuracys would self-correct over time, as consumers with concern for others would bring them to the attention of the restaurant (with a lawsuit if necessary..)
you're absolutely correct- and with that knowledge- I am capable of managing/manipulating my diet equally as well as you- and I eat out WEEKLY- and usually we go hit up all you can eat sushi or all you can eat brazillian at LEAST once a month- if not twice.
No, I really don't KNOW what is in the food or how it is prepared. I'm not a professional chef, I don't work at that restaurant, and I'm not psychic. When I prepare my own versions of the food I see at the restaurant it is almost always lower calorie and much lower fat, and I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I can guestimate, but that's hit or miss, and I can see how that would be stressful for some (especially if they've recently read posts slamming inaccurate logging).
Is the sushi thing what they call food bragging? I'm not sure what the point is...Some people have smaller deficits than others, so....let's just be gentle and supportive of people trying to improve their health (taking personal responsibility)?
You have enough education and input or the capabilities to figure it out and make and educated deductive guess. You know this walking in that it's going to be higher calorie- and you know that a heavy sauce laden dish is going to be more calorie dense than a grilled chicken breast and a side of veggies.
This isn't sending Apollo into space my friend- is calories.
Secondly- have you looked at my diary- it's only 1650. I'm not some she hulk eating 5 K a day.
it's not food bragging- I'm making a point- I can make it work- I eat out significantly more often and I eat out at high calorie places- and I still am capable of making educated decisions and not get fat.
sreiously- it is NOT. that hard.0 -
GiveMeCoffee wrote: »Well, a few restaurant chains lost my business when they chose not to publish the nutritional content of their meals.
And that is your choice to make. Myself I think I might boycott a few of my restaurants if nutritional info was glaring at me when I was trying to decide cause sometimes I just don't care.
If I were a chef, such a customer would actually be a real horror to cross paths with. It's like going to the dentist and wanting to know all the components of a filling, or to the hair dresser and asking what all the stuff is in the shampoo etc. that she's using, including the watt of the dryer so you're certain she won't burn your hair.
Exactly!
These are not the customers I would want, so I would not tailor my business to attract those customers.0 -
Good grief. Anybody that worried about calorie counts should not be ordering anything fried, sauteed, or covered in sauce to begin with.
Once those are eliminated, it's really not hard to get reasonable guesses on the rest.0 -
Good grief. Anybody that worried about calorie counts should not be ordering anything fried, sauteed, or covered in sauce to begin with.
Once those are eliminated, it's really not hard to get reasonable guesses on the rest.
Ah, more tips to become a dream customer. Scrape the delicately and beautifully plated sauce all to one side and ignore the fact that it took several hours to reduce as well as season to perfection... It's like saying hello to Mona Lisa and telling her to smile more or listening to Mozart and complaining there are too many notes.0
This discussion has been closed.
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