Eating at restaurants used to be fun, now it's kind of stressful.
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1) less smoking in public spaces and fewer new smokersSabine_Stroehm wrote: »We are lucky in Ontario Canada that law requires chains with more than15 or 20 restaurants to publish their nutritional information.
The downside is after reading what I am eating I don't at most of them any more. The upside is you find a few gems.
This is basically what will be the situation in the U.S. Soon. Knowledge and information. Always a good thing to have access to. Cheers
Yaaaaaaay unnecessary, government mandated costs, thrust upon business? For things that have already been shown to not change consumer behavior? This is something you encourage?
Yes. Ordering off a menu without calorie information is like ordering off a menu with no prices given. It costs them money to set, publish, and stick to a fixed price for their menu, but we expect that. And we wouldn't expect people to be able to stay out of debt and live within their means if nothing had a price tag on it just by following advice like "buy products that look cheap" or "buy half as much".
Having calorie estimates available for restaurant meals does change my behavior substantially. I think it should be published on menus, not just "available" e.g. on the web site or if you ask for it.
Who cares if it changes your behavior?it has repeatedly been shown not to change consumers at large behaviors.
And smoking bans were repeatedly shown not to work, until they did.
And what did smoking bans achieve? And how do you separate that from the confounder of ever increasing tobacco taxes?
2) the taxes on cigarettes have always been high
Substantiate fewer new smokers was due to smoking bans and you should have a better control for taxes than they've always been high, which is one of the most ignorant statements ever.
In public health, it's actually impossible to "substantiate" any action (to your satisfaction) if what you're looking for is a linear causal connection. Stuff like that is limited to correlation, because of the nature of the phenomena.
So what are you using as the basis for your claims?
Correlation.0 -
I so agree don't stress out just realize that you went over and exercise a little more the next few days..... life is to short to worry about ithealthygreek wrote: »One of my greatest pleasures is going to a good local restaurant.
I love sitting down to a great meal and a glass of wine or two!
I try to choose well and make estimates of my calorie intake.
I may gain a bit of water weight but it really doesn't make a huge impact in the long run.
I could never stick with my healthy lifestyle if I couldn't enjoy this at least once a week.
My favorite restaurants don't (and probably couldn't realistically) post calorie counts.
so much this …
OP - if you can't enjoy a few nights out at a restaurant without stressing over calories what is the point of living? Just try to log as accurately as possible and move on …that is what I do
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Tell that to people eating high fat keto diets to reduce seizures.
Most people aren't in ketosis and eat plenty of carbs and sugars along with those high fats. It's not a good mix nor are all fats created equal.High fat is not inherently unhealthy.
Are you saying that there are no foods if eaten in a larger volume which are not good for you? Because if that is where this heading, we will simply never agree.You still haven't answered- what "they make it healthy or not healthy- nothing about the ingredients means it's inherently unhealthy
Sure, I can even eat outrageous things like ten sticks of butter drowned down with a jug of maple syrup every day at home if I really wanted to and I'm pretty sure it still wouldn't be a very good option. How does location of where food is eaten matter?you can make the same stuff home- does that make it unhealthy if it's the same stuff prepared and consumed at home?
Well, I bring up high calories because it's obviously a personal annoyance and hidden calories are problematic to anyone who is trying to avoid calorie dense foods. Plus, at some point, the sheer amount of calories we ingest really do matter from a health standpoint. If they didn't there wouldn't be morbidly obese people.That's EXACTLY what you're saying- hidden calories- and high calorie is unhealthy- and IT"S NOT. Because otherwise what is your point of high calorie??SERIOUSLY!!!????? YOU ARE NOT UNINFORMED.
If you were uninformed- this wouldn't be an issue- but you walk in there KNOWING you're getting a crap load of delicious butter on your steak.
No, I walk in there not knowing exactly what I am getting because restaurants vary in exactly how they prepare dishes. That's the whole point.0 -
So quit eating at restaurants the don't publish nutritional info. OMG, look at that, problem solved.0
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GiveMeCoffee wrote: »GiveMeCoffee wrote: »GiveMeCoffee wrote: »SkepticalOwl wrote: »It occurs to me that though many are saying that a government mandate to provide nutrition information is getting in the way of business, the mandate will actually make a free market in restaurant meals a possibility. The concept of the free market, and the idea of the "invisible hand" guiding it, presupposes perfect information on the part of the consumer. Arguing against people having more information on which to base their purchasing decisions is actually arguing against the most effective part of the capitalist system.
So arguing against government mandating calorie counts, is actually arguing against capitalism/the free market? Interesting
Can you please post where you got this idea?
Wouldn't it be something like, if consumers actually wanted this information they would stop buying from those establishments and if enough stopped purchasing the establishments would then give them the information they wanted ?
Your assumption that all consumers know what kind of knowledge they need to know to make informed decisions is adorable.
So you feel all consumers are not smart enough to make decisions for themselves and need the government to handle everything for us?
1) I think people who don't know what to ask for won't ask for it, re the post I originally responded to.
2) Haha, I'm out of this thread, if it's down to comments like that.
You make a condescending remark calling something adorable????
But yet I ask you a question and all your do is run out of the thread? I thought it was an honest question to your post.
You are saying people are too stupid to ask questions and that we don't know what we want.. so we need the government to regulate everything to save the stupid people... or at least that is how your comment comes across. Please elaborate if that is not what you meant.
No that's pretty much what I meant
Ok though for real. Our bodies - our fat cells and metabolic systems and taste buds - are optimized to maximize our body fat because that helped us survive periods of famine. That's why we get fat and stay fat without some special commitment like daily calorie counting (which was a serious pain in the butt before e.g. mfp). That's why we love the kinds of things that make us fat. This happens without us really thinking about it.
Also, companies make money off of this fact. That's how they make a whack of profit, is by taking advantage of our fat cells and taste buds.
Calorie counting is a pain in the butt. Most people are ignorant of how to eat in a way that will help them not get or stay fat. Even when they know, it's hard, because body and mind fight it.
It's not that people are 'stupid', it's that 1) we have to fight a) our bodies and b) strong incentives by food manufacturers, advertisers and restaurants to not be fat, and 2) losing weight and keeping it off is really hard (not difficult, it's simple, but learning all the things you need to know to do it isn't easy and takes a lot of change for a lot of people).
So any help we can get, like governments forcing companies to make information available, is good
Because companies don't want us to think about how their food makes us fat. Because they make money off us not thinking about it.
No companies didn't make us fat, government forcing companies won't make us skinny. Learning how to lose weight isn't difficult, people make it difficult, but it's not. Sticking with it can be hard, but doesn't have to be miserable.
We got fat because we eat way too much of everything, we drive most places, we don't even get up anymore to change channels we all have remotes for everything. We are lazy.
Calorie counting is very easy to me, enter it adjust slightly done. It works and if you keep it simple its actually easy.
If I go into a restaurant and know I want to stay around my goals for the day and I have the choice between grilled chicken or fettucine alfredo .. I can make an easy pick on which one will better fit my goals for that day. Now if I go in and just finished a long bike ride I can easily go with the alfredo.
The more government gets involved and takes control the less people think for themselves and the more excuses you give people for not controlling their lives, their health and deciding whats best for them.
We need to stop blaming food companies, sugar, restaurants, the government, or whatever and whoever else for our poor decisions
oooooomg my head i can't with this
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GiveMeCoffee wrote: »GiveMeCoffee wrote: »GiveMeCoffee wrote: »SkepticalOwl wrote: »It occurs to me that though many are saying that a government mandate to provide nutrition information is getting in the way of business, the mandate will actually make a free market in restaurant meals a possibility. The concept of the free market, and the idea of the "invisible hand" guiding it, presupposes perfect information on the part of the consumer. Arguing against people having more information on which to base their purchasing decisions is actually arguing against the most effective part of the capitalist system.
So arguing against government mandating calorie counts, is actually arguing against capitalism/the free market? Interesting
Can you please post where you got this idea?
Wouldn't it be something like, if consumers actually wanted this information they would stop buying from those establishments and if enough stopped purchasing the establishments would then give them the information they wanted ?
Your assumption that all consumers know what kind of knowledge they need to know to make informed decisions is adorable.
So you feel all consumers are not smart enough to make decisions for themselves and need the government to handle everything for us?
1) I think people who don't know what to ask for won't ask for it, re the post I originally responded to.
2) Haha, I'm out of this thread, if it's down to comments like that.
You make a condescending remark calling something adorable????
But yet I ask you a question and all your do is run out of the thread? I thought it was an honest question to your post.
You are saying people are too stupid to ask questions and that we don't know what we want.. so we need the government to regulate everything to save the stupid people... or at least that is how your comment comes across. Please elaborate if that is not what you meant.
No that's pretty much what I meant
Ok though for real. Our bodies - our fat cells and metabolic systems and taste buds - are optimized to maximize our body fat because that helped us survive periods of famine. That's why we get fat and stay fat without some special commitment like daily calorie counting (which was a serious pain in the butt before e.g. mfp). That's why we love the kinds of things that make us fat. This happens without us really thinking about it.
Also, companies make money off of this fact. That's how they make a whack of profit, is by taking advantage of our fat cells and taste buds.
Calorie counting is a pain in the butt. Most people are ignorant of how to eat in a way that will help them not get or stay fat. Even when they know, it's hard, because body and mind fight it.
It's not that people are 'stupid', it's that 1) we have to fight a) our bodies and b) strong incentives by food manufacturers, advertisers and restaurants to not be fat, and 2) losing weight and keeping it off is really hard (not difficult, it's simple, but learning all the things you need to know to do it isn't easy and takes a lot of change for a lot of people).
So any help we can get, like governments forcing companies to make information available, is good
Because companies don't want us to think about how their food makes us fat. Because they make money off us not thinking about it.
No companies didn't make us fat, government forcing companies won't make us skinny. Learning how to lose weight isn't difficult, people make it difficult, but it's not. Sticking with it can be hard, but doesn't have to be miserable.
We got fat because we eat way too much of everything, we drive most places, we don't even get up anymore to change channels we all have remotes for everything. We are lazy.
Calorie counting is very easy to me, enter it adjust slightly done. It works and if you keep it simple its actually easy.
If I go into a restaurant and know I want to stay around my goals for the day and I have the choice between grilled chicken or fettucine alfredo .. I can make an easy pick on which one will better fit my goals for that day. Now if I go in and just finished a long bike ride I can easily go with the alfredo.
The more government gets involved and takes control the less people think for themselves and the more excuses you give people for not controlling their lives, their health and deciding whats best for them.
We need to stop blaming food companies, sugar, restaurants, the government, or whatever and whoever else for our poor decisions
oooooomg my head i can't with this
Thinking is hard.0 -
Every time I end up going out to eat at a restaurant that doesn't publish their nutritional information I feel like I am playing Russian roulette. It should be mandatory that consumers are allowed to know the contents of the food you are serving them. I have no way to log any of this stuff accurately because restaurants have a way of sneaking fats and oils into just about everything! I could have eaten an entire stick of butter today for all I know. I used to love trying new places. Now it's just a headache. I feel like such a cranky old lady getting my feathers ruffled at what should have been a good time but I can't help but wonder if I am going to regret this tomorrow. Blah.
1 night out won't ruin a "diet".
Want to see what I mean? Put a wall calendar up with your daily caloric goal on each day. Each day you make a goal put a big check. Each day you don't put an X. Each day you eat out in moderation and have fun with friends, put a smiley face. The dinner table is intended for friends, family, and fun. Don't let 1 night ruin that.
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GiveMeCoffee wrote: »GiveMeCoffee wrote: »GiveMeCoffee wrote: »SkepticalOwl wrote: »It occurs to me that though many are saying that a government mandate to provide nutrition information is getting in the way of business, the mandate will actually make a free market in restaurant meals a possibility. The concept of the free market, and the idea of the "invisible hand" guiding it, presupposes perfect information on the part of the consumer. Arguing against people having more information on which to base their purchasing decisions is actually arguing against the most effective part of the capitalist system.
So arguing against government mandating calorie counts, is actually arguing against capitalism/the free market? Interesting
Can you please post where you got this idea?
Wouldn't it be something like, if consumers actually wanted this information they would stop buying from those establishments and if enough stopped purchasing the establishments would then give them the information they wanted ?
Your assumption that all consumers know what kind of knowledge they need to know to make informed decisions is adorable.
So you feel all consumers are not smart enough to make decisions for themselves and need the government to handle everything for us?
1) I think people who don't know what to ask for won't ask for it, re the post I originally responded to.
2) Haha, I'm out of this thread, if it's down to comments like that.
You make a condescending remark calling something adorable????
But yet I ask you a question and all your do is run out of the thread? I thought it was an honest question to your post.
You are saying people are too stupid to ask questions and that we don't know what we want.. so we need the government to regulate everything to save the stupid people... or at least that is how your comment comes across. Please elaborate if that is not what you meant.
No that's pretty much what I meant
Ok though for real. Our bodies - our fat cells and metabolic systems and taste buds - are optimized to maximize our body fat because that helped us survive periods of famine. That's why we get fat and stay fat without some special commitment like daily calorie counting (which was a serious pain in the butt before e.g. mfp). That's why we love the kinds of things that make us fat. This happens without us really thinking about it.
Also, companies make money off of this fact. That's how they make a whack of profit, is by taking advantage of our fat cells and taste buds.
Calorie counting is a pain in the butt. Most people are ignorant of how to eat in a way that will help them not get or stay fat. Even when they know, it's hard, because body and mind fight it.
It's not that people are 'stupid', it's that 1) we have to fight a) our bodies and b) strong incentives by food manufacturers, advertisers and restaurants to not be fat, and 2) losing weight and keeping it off is really hard (not difficult, it's simple, but learning all the things you need to know to do it isn't easy and takes a lot of change for a lot of people).
So any help we can get, like governments forcing companies to make information available, is good
Because companies don't want us to think about how their food makes us fat. Because they make money off us not thinking about it.
No companies didn't make us fat, government forcing companies won't make us skinny. Learning how to lose weight isn't difficult, people make it difficult, but it's not. Sticking with it can be hard, but doesn't have to be miserable.
We got fat because we eat way too much of everything, we drive most places, we don't even get up anymore to change channels we all have remotes for everything. We are lazy.
Calorie counting is very easy to me, enter it adjust slightly done. It works and if you keep it simple its actually easy.
If I go into a restaurant and know I want to stay around my goals for the day and I have the choice between grilled chicken or fettucine alfredo .. I can make an easy pick on which one will better fit my goals for that day. Now if I go in and just finished a long bike ride I can easily go with the alfredo.
The more government gets involved and takes control the less people think for themselves and the more excuses you give people for not controlling their lives, their health and deciding whats best for them.
We need to stop blaming food companies, sugar, restaurants, the government, or whatever and whoever else for our poor decisions
oooooomg my head i can't with this
Thinking is hard.
right. no i just have an allergic reaction to libertarian codswallop
this is a FOOD AND NUTRITION THREAD - outie.
good luck, dawn.0 -
GiveMeCoffee wrote: »GiveMeCoffee wrote: »GiveMeCoffee wrote: »SkepticalOwl wrote: »It occurs to me that though many are saying that a government mandate to provide nutrition information is getting in the way of business, the mandate will actually make a free market in restaurant meals a possibility. The concept of the free market, and the idea of the "invisible hand" guiding it, presupposes perfect information on the part of the consumer. Arguing against people having more information on which to base their purchasing decisions is actually arguing against the most effective part of the capitalist system.
So arguing against government mandating calorie counts, is actually arguing against capitalism/the free market? Interesting
Can you please post where you got this idea?
Wouldn't it be something like, if consumers actually wanted this information they would stop buying from those establishments and if enough stopped purchasing the establishments would then give them the information they wanted ?
Your assumption that all consumers know what kind of knowledge they need to know to make informed decisions is adorable.
So you feel all consumers are not smart enough to make decisions for themselves and need the government to handle everything for us?
1) I think people who don't know what to ask for won't ask for it, re the post I originally responded to.
2) Haha, I'm out of this thread, if it's down to comments like that.
You make a condescending remark calling something adorable????
But yet I ask you a question and all your do is run out of the thread? I thought it was an honest question to your post.
You are saying people are too stupid to ask questions and that we don't know what we want.. so we need the government to regulate everything to save the stupid people... or at least that is how your comment comes across. Please elaborate if that is not what you meant.
No that's pretty much what I meant
Ok though for real. Our bodies - our fat cells and metabolic systems and taste buds - are optimized to maximize our body fat because that helped us survive periods of famine. That's why we get fat and stay fat without some special commitment like daily calorie counting (which was a serious pain in the butt before e.g. mfp). That's why we love the kinds of things that make us fat. This happens without us really thinking about it.
Also, companies make money off of this fact. That's how they make a whack of profit, is by taking advantage of our fat cells and taste buds.
Calorie counting is a pain in the butt. Most people are ignorant of how to eat in a way that will help them not get or stay fat. Even when they know, it's hard, because body and mind fight it.
It's not that people are 'stupid', it's that 1) we have to fight a) our bodies and b) strong incentives by food manufacturers, advertisers and restaurants to not be fat, and 2) losing weight and keeping it off is really hard (not difficult, it's simple, but learning all the things you need to know to do it isn't easy and takes a lot of change for a lot of people).
So any help we can get, like governments forcing companies to make information available, is good
Because companies don't want us to think about how their food makes us fat. Because they make money off us not thinking about it.
No companies didn't make us fat, government forcing companies won't make us skinny. Learning how to lose weight isn't difficult, people make it difficult, but it's not. Sticking with it can be hard, but doesn't have to be miserable.
We got fat because we eat way too much of everything, we drive most places, we don't even get up anymore to change channels we all have remotes for everything. We are lazy.
Calorie counting is very easy to me, enter it adjust slightly done. It works and if you keep it simple its actually easy.
If I go into a restaurant and know I want to stay around my goals for the day and I have the choice between grilled chicken or fettucine alfredo .. I can make an easy pick on which one will better fit my goals for that day. Now if I go in and just finished a long bike ride I can easily go with the alfredo.
The more government gets involved and takes control the less people think for themselves and the more excuses you give people for not controlling their lives, their health and deciding whats best for them.
We need to stop blaming food companies, sugar, restaurants, the government, or whatever and whoever else for our poor decisions
oooooomg my head i can't with this
Thinking is hard.
right. no i just have an allergic reaction to libertarian codswallop
this is a FOOD AND NUTRITION THREAD - outie.
good luck, dawn.
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PikaKnight wrote: »I think the hope with that law is that it will push restaurants to give more low calorie options. Which frankly is a good thing. And it's only for chains with more than 20 restaurants I believe.
My favorite restaurants are local/non chain places as well but I really wish they would clearly show the low calorie options on their menu. Often it's just sandwiches or salads with all kinds of nuts and cheeses or breaded chicken or fish and it's just tough to figure out what's 'safest' to eat. Then you have the other extreme where the 'light menu' is pretty much egg whites with veggies and fruit or plain oatmeal and you just want to ask them if really they have no option between 300 and 1000 calories.
So you want the government to take care of you then, right?
No responsibilities for what you eat.
Huh what?
And yeah, I don't go out as much anymore. I fail to see how it's a bad thing, at least I'm saving money, and when we went out it was just with my family when I was too lazy to cook anyway... I still enjoy a good meal out once in a while. Just not once a week anymore. It is a lifestyle change after all.
And people who mention traveling... it totally sucked when I was in vacations for a week and we had to eat out all the time, quite frankly! Ended up gaining two pounds because a lot of places didn't have any 'healthy' choice, and I was hungry.
Your vacation sucked because you had to eat out and gained 2lbs.
Wow.
2lbs is nothing for a vacation. Saying that, I managed to only gain 1lb on my 2 weeks all inclusive honeymoon, and I think that was from the crappy plane food lol. You can enjoy eating out and not become a greedy pig.
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This is where making this a lifestyle change becomes important. Along the way, its important to learn how to make healthier choices such that it becomes easy. I eat out a lot. I avoid big chain restaurants and avoid stuff that I don't normally eat anyway.0
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GiveMeCoffee wrote: »GiveMeCoffee wrote: »GiveMeCoffee wrote: »SkepticalOwl wrote: »It occurs to me that though many are saying that a government mandate to provide nutrition information is getting in the way of business, the mandate will actually make a free market in restaurant meals a possibility. The concept of the free market, and the idea of the "invisible hand" guiding it, presupposes perfect information on the part of the consumer. Arguing against people having more information on which to base their purchasing decisions is actually arguing against the most effective part of the capitalist system.
So arguing against government mandating calorie counts, is actually arguing against capitalism/the free market? Interesting
Can you please post where you got this idea?
Wouldn't it be something like, if consumers actually wanted this information they would stop buying from those establishments and if enough stopped purchasing the establishments would then give them the information they wanted ?
Your assumption that all consumers know what kind of knowledge they need to know to make informed decisions is adorable.
So you feel all consumers are not smart enough to make decisions for themselves and need the government to handle everything for us?
1) I think people who don't know what to ask for won't ask for it, re the post I originally responded to.
2) Haha, I'm out of this thread, if it's down to comments like that.
You make a condescending remark calling something adorable????
But yet I ask you a question and all your do is run out of the thread? I thought it was an honest question to your post.
You are saying people are too stupid to ask questions and that we don't know what we want.. so we need the government to regulate everything to save the stupid people... or at least that is how your comment comes across. Please elaborate if that is not what you meant.
No that's pretty much what I meant
Ok though for real. Our bodies - our fat cells and metabolic systems and taste buds - are optimized to maximize our body fat because that helped us survive periods of famine. That's why we get fat and stay fat without some special commitment like daily calorie counting (which was a serious pain in the butt before e.g. mfp). That's why we love the kinds of things that make us fat. This happens without us really thinking about it.
Also, companies make money off of this fact. That's how they make a whack of profit, is by taking advantage of our fat cells and taste buds.
Calorie counting is a pain in the butt. Most people are ignorant of how to eat in a way that will help them not get or stay fat. Even when they know, it's hard, because body and mind fight it.
It's not that people are 'stupid', it's that 1) we have to fight a) our bodies and b) strong incentives by food manufacturers, advertisers and restaurants to not be fat, and 2) losing weight and keeping it off is really hard (not difficult, it's simple, but learning all the things you need to know to do it isn't easy and takes a lot of change for a lot of people).
So any help we can get, like governments forcing companies to make information available, is good
Because companies don't want us to think about how their food makes us fat. Because they make money off us not thinking about it.
No companies didn't make us fat, government forcing companies won't make us skinny. Learning how to lose weight isn't difficult, people make it difficult, but it's not. Sticking with it can be hard, but doesn't have to be miserable.
We got fat because we eat way too much of everything, we drive most places, we don't even get up anymore to change channels we all have remotes for everything. We are lazy.
Calorie counting is very easy to me, enter it adjust slightly done. It works and if you keep it simple its actually easy.
If I go into a restaurant and know I want to stay around my goals for the day and I have the choice between grilled chicken or fettucine alfredo .. I can make an easy pick on which one will better fit my goals for that day. Now if I go in and just finished a long bike ride I can easily go with the alfredo.
The more government gets involved and takes control the less people think for themselves and the more excuses you give people for not controlling their lives, their health and deciding whats best for them.
We need to stop blaming food companies, sugar, restaurants, the government, or whatever and whoever else for our poor decisions
oooooomg my head i can't with this
Thinking is hard.
right. no i just have an allergic reaction to libertarian codswallop
this is a FOOD AND NUTRITION THREAD - outie.
good luck, dawn.
I'm allergic to people who take no personal responsibility. Yes I know thinking for yourself and standing by our decisions is an out there concept anymore...
Really its a food & nutrition thread? You are the one saying people are too stupid to know what the best choices are for themselves and need the government to do that.
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@GiveMeCoffee - Just a, not so random, question: Do you really believe that society and how laws and culture looks plays no part in how we end up? Are you one of those few that refuse to believe that people are influenced by things such as commercials, peer pressure and other similar things? No hate, just wondering.0
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Every time I end up going out to eat at a restaurant that doesn't publish their nutritional information I feel like I am playing Russian roulette. It should be mandatory that consumers are allowed to know the contents of the food you are serving them. I have no way to log any of this stuff accurately because restaurants have a way of sneaking fats and oils into just about everything! I could have eaten an entire stick of butter today for all I know. I used to love trying new places. Now it's just a headache. I feel like such a cranky old lady getting my feathers ruffled at what should have been a good time but I can't help but wonder if I am going to regret this tomorrow. Blah.
I hate eating out. It stresses me out because of the calories in the food, but it also stresses me out because of my food phobias from my SED/ARFID. So I avoid it unless I have absolutely no choice whatsoever.
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@GiveMeCoffee - Just a, not so random, question: Do you really believe that society and how laws and culture looks plays no part in how we end up? Are you one of those few that refuse to believe that people are influenced by things such as commercials, peer pressure and other similar things? No hate, just wondering.
Yes I believe we all make choices and need to stand behind them. A commercial might look good but they aren't forcing me to go run out and purchase something. Peer pressure no I think yes people may try to influence you but again you need to decide what you want and not be so easily swayed from your beliefs.
If everyone just accepted that this is the life I was born into no one would ever attempt to better themselves. I think we've become a society of people that take no responsibility for themselves, are always looking for the next thing to blame.0 -
GiveMeCoffee wrote: »@GiveMeCoffee - Just a, not so random, question: Do you really believe that society and how laws and culture looks plays no part in how we end up? Are you one of those few that refuse to believe that people are influenced by things such as commercials, peer pressure and other similar things? No hate, just wondering.
Yes I believe we all make choices and need to stand behind them. A commercial might look good but they aren't forcing me to go run out and purchase something. Peer pressure no I think yes people may try to influence you but again you need to decide what you want and not be so easily swayed from your beliefs.
If everyone just accepted that this is the life I was born into no one would ever attempt to better themselves. I think we've become a society of people that take no responsibility for themselves, are always looking for the next thing to blame.
Personal responsibility is very important, but there are a thousand other factors out there that most people are less aware of and also less resilient to. I recommend you look up a few books or classes on human psychology 101 because your view of how "commercials don't force us to do anything" is not only wrong but can also be straight out damaging to people around you. I know this is slightly off-topic though, so you're more than welcome to send me a PM and we can continue discussing it in good manners without derailing this thread
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GiveMeCoffee wrote: »@GiveMeCoffee - Just a, not so random, question: Do you really believe that society and how laws and culture looks plays no part in how we end up? Are you one of those few that refuse to believe that people are influenced by things such as commercials, peer pressure and other similar things? No hate, just wondering.
Yes I believe we all make choices and need to stand behind them. A commercial might look good but they aren't forcing me to go run out and purchase something. Peer pressure no I think yes people may try to influence you but again you need to decide what you want and not be so easily swayed from your beliefs.
If everyone just accepted that this is the life I was born into no one would ever attempt to better themselves. I think we've become a society of people that take no responsibility for themselves, are always looking for the next thing to blame.
Personal responsibility is very important, but there are a thousand other factors out there that most people are less aware of and also less resilient to. I recommend you look up a few books or classes on human psychology 101 because your view of how "commercials don't force us to do anything" is not only wrong but can also be straight out damaging to people around you. I know this is slightly off-topic though, so you're more than welcome to send me a PM and we can continue discussing it in good manners without derailing this thread
Really? Sorry I worked in marketing and took many psychology classes.
Blaming commercials or any other outside source for your lack of conviction is much more damaging. I think everyone around me has survived 43 years they are probably safe. But please continue this thread is already so derailed please oh please tell me how I am straight out damaging those around me0 -
@GiveMeCoffee - Sent you a PM and also explained why, happy to keep discussing it with you 0
-
PikaKnight wrote: »I think the hope with that law is that it will push restaurants to give more low calorie options. Which frankly is a good thing. And it's only for chains with more than 20 restaurants I believe.
My favorite restaurants are local/non chain places as well but I really wish they would clearly show the low calorie options on their menu. Often it's just sandwiches or salads with all kinds of nuts and cheeses or breaded chicken or fish and it's just tough to figure out what's 'safest' to eat. Then you have the other extreme where the 'light menu' is pretty much egg whites with veggies and fruit or plain oatmeal and you just want to ask them if really they have no option between 300 and 1000 calories.
So you want the government to take care of you then, right?
No responsibilities for what you eat.
Huh what?
And yeah, I don't go out as much anymore. I fail to see how it's a bad thing, at least I'm saving money, and when we went out it was just with my family when I was too lazy to cook anyway... I still enjoy a good meal out once in a while. Just not once a week anymore. It is a lifestyle change after all.
And people who mention traveling... it totally sucked when I was in vacations for a week and we had to eat out all the time, quite frankly! Ended up gaining two pounds because a lot of places didn't have any 'healthy' choice, and I was hungry.
Your vacation sucked because you had to eat out and gained 2lbs.
Wow.
Ok... WTF? Where did I say that my vacation sucked? I said eating out every day sucked. And nowhere did I mention that it was necessarily some super tasty food. It was mostly diners and stuff, so not always the kind of stuff that is really worth the calories. We have two little kids. Going out to fancy places with them is not happening.
And it took me 2 months to get rid of those 2 pounds, for the record, so it wasn't really a 'temporary gain' (I gained 4, 2 of those were temporary, but again we spent a lot of time in the car). It's been hard for me to lose weight at this point so gaining weight because I didn't have that many options about what to eat sucked *for me*.
Wow you guys are really *****. Some of us DO care about that stuff. Why is it that hard to comprehend? Yeah 2 years ago I would have LOVED being able to go on vacations and eat out all the time. But that was 2 years ago, when I didn't care at all because I was in denial and thought I would never go over 200 pounds no matter how much I ate. Now I actually *gasp* care about what I eat. It has to be worth the calories. Believe it or not, having to eat pizza yet again when you would much rather eat something lighter does suck for some of us. And only seeing high calorie options on a menu when you had a big lunch but are still hungry can be quite disheartening at times. I love my pizza and my desserts and high calorie foods, but when I actually want them. And I need volume, half a high calorie meal will typically just leave me hungry 2 hours later.
I guess that 'everyone is different' is a concept that is going completely over your heads.
-1 -
PikaKnight wrote: »I think the hope with that law is that it will push restaurants to give more low calorie options. Which frankly is a good thing. And it's only for chains with more than 20 restaurants I believe.
My favorite restaurants are local/non chain places as well but I really wish they would clearly show the low calorie options on their menu. Often it's just sandwiches or salads with all kinds of nuts and cheeses or breaded chicken or fish and it's just tough to figure out what's 'safest' to eat. Then you have the other extreme where the 'light menu' is pretty much egg whites with veggies and fruit or plain oatmeal and you just want to ask them if really they have no option between 300 and 1000 calories.
So you want the government to take care of you then, right?
No responsibilities for what you eat.
Huh what?
And yeah, I don't go out as much anymore. I fail to see how it's a bad thing, at least I'm saving money, and when we went out it was just with my family when I was too lazy to cook anyway... I still enjoy a good meal out once in a while. Just not once a week anymore. It is a lifestyle change after all.
And people who mention traveling... it totally sucked when I was in vacations for a week and we had to eat out all the time, quite frankly! Ended up gaining two pounds because a lot of places didn't have any 'healthy' choice, and I was hungry.
Your vacation sucked because you had to eat out and gained 2lbs.
Wow.
Ok... WTF? Where did I say that my vacation sucked? I said eating out every day sucked. And nowhere did I mention that it was necessarily some super tasty food. It was mostly diners and stuff, so not always the kind of stuff that is really worth the calories. We have two little kids. Going out to fancy places with them is not happening.
And it took me 2 months to get rid of those 2 pounds, for the record, so it wasn't really a 'temporary gain' (I gained 4, 2 of those were temporary, but again we spent a lot of time in the car). It's been hard for me to lose weight at this point so gaining weight because I didn't have that many options about what to eat sucked *for me*.
Wow you guys are really *****. Some of us DO care about that stuff. Why is it that hard to comprehend? Yeah 2 years ago I would have LOVED being able to go on vacations and eat out all the time. But that was 2 years ago, when I didn't care at all because I was in denial and thought I would never go over 200 pounds no matter how much I ate. Now I actually *gasp* care about what I eat. It has to be worth the calories. Believe it or not, having to eat pizza yet again when you would much rather eat something lighter does suck for some of us. And only seeing high calorie options on a menu when you had a big lunch but are still hungry can be quite disheartening at times. I love my pizza and my desserts and high calorie foods, but when I actually want them. And I need volume, half a high calorie meal will typically just leave me hungry 2 hours later.
I guess that 'everyone is different' is a concept that is going completely over your heads.And people who mention traveling... it totally sucked when I was in vacations for a week and we had to eat out all the time, quite frankly!
Right there is where you said your vacation sucked.
Also why can't you go out to fancy restaurants with little kids?? When my kids were young I took them to all kinds of restaurants, because I had taught them to behave appropriately and to enjoy good food.
Diner food can also be delicious. Did we say we didn't care what we eat?? No we said we don't let it ruin vacations, time with family etc. Because it is not the end of the world. You also choose the places you went to, so you choose the ones that limited your options.0 -
@GiveMeCoffee - Just a, not so random, question: Do you really believe that society and how laws and culture looks plays no part in how we end up? Are you one of those few that refuse to believe that people are influenced by things such as commercials, peer pressure and other similar things? No hate, just wondering.
You are responsible for YOUR own decisions, period.0 -
GiveMeCoffee wrote: »PikaKnight wrote: »I think the hope with that law is that it will push restaurants to give more low calorie options. Which frankly is a good thing. And it's only for chains with more than 20 restaurants I believe.
My favorite restaurants are local/non chain places as well but I really wish they would clearly show the low calorie options on their menu. Often it's just sandwiches or salads with all kinds of nuts and cheeses or breaded chicken or fish and it's just tough to figure out what's 'safest' to eat. Then you have the other extreme where the 'light menu' is pretty much egg whites with veggies and fruit or plain oatmeal and you just want to ask them if really they have no option between 300 and 1000 calories.
So you want the government to take care of you then, right?
No responsibilities for what you eat.
Huh what?
And yeah, I don't go out as much anymore. I fail to see how it's a bad thing, at least I'm saving money, and when we went out it was just with my family when I was too lazy to cook anyway... I still enjoy a good meal out once in a while. Just not once a week anymore. It is a lifestyle change after all.
And people who mention traveling... it totally sucked when I was in vacations for a week and we had to eat out all the time, quite frankly! Ended up gaining two pounds because a lot of places didn't have any 'healthy' choice, and I was hungry.
Your vacation sucked because you had to eat out and gained 2lbs.
Wow.
Ok... WTF? Where did I say that my vacation sucked? I said eating out every day sucked. And nowhere did I mention that it was necessarily some super tasty food. It was mostly diners and stuff, so not always the kind of stuff that is really worth the calories. We have two little kids. Going out to fancy places with them is not happening.
And it took me 2 months to get rid of those 2 pounds, for the record, so it wasn't really a 'temporary gain' (I gained 4, 2 of those were temporary, but again we spent a lot of time in the car). It's been hard for me to lose weight at this point so gaining weight because I didn't have that many options about what to eat sucked *for me*.
Wow you guys are really *****. Some of us DO care about that stuff. Why is it that hard to comprehend? Yeah 2 years ago I would have LOVED being able to go on vacations and eat out all the time. But that was 2 years ago, when I didn't care at all because I was in denial and thought I would never go over 200 pounds no matter how much I ate. Now I actually *gasp* care about what I eat. It has to be worth the calories. Believe it or not, having to eat pizza yet again when you would much rather eat something lighter does suck for some of us. And only seeing high calorie options on a menu when you had a big lunch but are still hungry can be quite disheartening at times. I love my pizza and my desserts and high calorie foods, but when I actually want them. And I need volume, half a high calorie meal will typically just leave me hungry 2 hours later.
I guess that 'everyone is different' is a concept that is going completely over your heads.And people who mention traveling... it totally sucked when I was in vacations for a week and we had to eat out all the time, quite frankly!
Right there is where you said your vacation sucked.
Also why can't you go out to fancy restaurants with little kids?? When my kids were young I took them to all kinds of restaurants, because I had taught them to behave appropriately and to enjoy good food.
Diner food can also be delicious. Did we say we didn't care what we eat?? No we said we don't let it ruin vacations, time with family etc. Because it is not the end of the world. You also choose the places you went to, so you choose the ones that limited your options.
^^ All of this right here.-1 -
GiveMeCoffee wrote: »GiveMeCoffee wrote: »@GiveMeCoffee - Just a, not so random, question: Do you really believe that society and how laws and culture looks plays no part in how we end up? Are you one of those few that refuse to believe that people are influenced by things such as commercials, peer pressure and other similar things? No hate, just wondering.
Yes I believe we all make choices and need to stand behind them. A commercial might look good but they aren't forcing me to go run out and purchase something. Peer pressure no I think yes people may try to influence you but again you need to decide what you want and not be so easily swayed from your beliefs.
If everyone just accepted that this is the life I was born into no one would ever attempt to better themselves. I think we've become a society of people that take no responsibility for themselves, are always looking for the next thing to blame.
Personal responsibility is very important, but there are a thousand other factors out there that most people are less aware of and also less resilient to. I recommend you look up a few books or classes on human psychology 101 because your view of how "commercials don't force us to do anything" is not only wrong but can also be straight out damaging to people around you. I know this is slightly off-topic though, so you're more than welcome to send me a PM and we can continue discussing it in good manners without derailing this thread
Really? Sorry I worked in marketing and took many psychology classes.
Blaming commercials or any other outside source for your lack of conviction is much more damaging. I think everyone around me has survived 43 years they are probably safe. But please continue this thread is already so derailed please oh please tell me how I am straight out damaging those around me
Stop damaging me!!!!!!!!! :laugh:-1 -
PikaKnight wrote: »I think the hope with that law is that it will push restaurants to give more low calorie options. Which frankly is a good thing. And it's only for chains with more than 20 restaurants I believe.
My favorite restaurants are local/non chain places as well but I really wish they would clearly show the low calorie options on their menu. Often it's just sandwiches or salads with all kinds of nuts and cheeses or breaded chicken or fish and it's just tough to figure out what's 'safest' to eat. Then you have the other extreme where the 'light menu' is pretty much egg whites with veggies and fruit or plain oatmeal and you just want to ask them if really they have no option between 300 and 1000 calories.
So you want the government to take care of you then, right?
No responsibilities for what you eat.
Huh what?
And yeah, I don't go out as much anymore. I fail to see how it's a bad thing, at least I'm saving money, and when we went out it was just with my family when I was too lazy to cook anyway... I still enjoy a good meal out once in a while. Just not once a week anymore. It is a lifestyle change after all.
And people who mention traveling... it totally sucked when I was in vacations for a week and we had to eat out all the time, quite frankly! Ended up gaining two pounds because a lot of places didn't have any 'healthy' choice, and I was hungry.
Your vacation sucked because you had to eat out and gained 2lbs.
Wow.
Ok... WTF? Where did I say that my vacation sucked? I said eating out every day sucked. And nowhere did I mention that it was necessarily some super tasty food. It was mostly diners and stuff, so not always the kind of stuff that is really worth the calories. We have two little kids. Going out to fancy places with them is not happening.
And it took me 2 months to get rid of those 2 pounds, for the record, so it wasn't really a 'temporary gain' (I gained 4, 2 of those were temporary, but again we spent a lot of time in the car). It's been hard for me to lose weight at this point so gaining weight because I didn't have that many options about what to eat sucked *for me*.
Wow you guys are really *****. Some of us DO care about that stuff. Why is it that hard to comprehend? Yeah 2 years ago I would have LOVED being able to go on vacations and eat out all the time. But that was 2 years ago, when I didn't care at all because I was in denial and thought I would never go over 200 pounds no matter how much I ate. Now I actually *gasp* care about what I eat. It has to be worth the calories. Believe it or not, having to eat pizza yet again when you would much rather eat something lighter does suck for some of us. And only seeing high calorie options on a menu when you had a big lunch but are still hungry can be quite disheartening at times. I love my pizza and my desserts and high calorie foods, but when I actually want them. And I need volume, half a high calorie meal will typically just leave me hungry 2 hours later.
I guess that 'everyone is different' is a concept that is going completely over your heads.
You put the food in your mouth, nobody else did, unless of course their was gunmen who made you do it.
Train your children young so you can go to fancy places, I did.
I go to Disney once or twice a month and I eat their the whole day and I just make wise decisions or have a splurge day.0 -
Excuse #1............................
Excuse #2............................
ETC.0 -
I think you nailed it thank God......GiveMeCoffee wrote: »GiveMeCoffee wrote: »GiveMeCoffee wrote: »SkepticalOwl wrote: »It occurs to me that though many are saying that a government mandate to provide nutrition information is getting in the way of business, the mandate will actually make a free market in restaurant meals a possibility. The concept of the free market, and the idea of the "invisible hand" guiding it, presupposes perfect information on the part of the consumer. Arguing against people having more information on which to base their purchasing decisions is actually arguing against the most effective part of the capitalist system.
So arguing against government mandating calorie counts, is actually arguing against capitalism/the free market? Interesting
Can you please post where you got this idea?
Wouldn't it be something like, if consumers actually wanted this information they would stop buying from those establishments and if enough stopped purchasing the establishments would then give them the information they wanted ?
Your assumption that all consumers know what kind of knowledge they need to know to make informed decisions is adorable.
So you feel all consumers are not smart enough to make decisions for themselves and need the government to handle everything for us?
1) I think people who don't know what to ask for won't ask for it, re the post I originally responded to.
2) Haha, I'm out of this thread, if it's down to comments like that.
You make a condescending remark calling something adorable????
But yet I ask you a question and all your do is run out of the thread? I thought it was an honest question to your post.
You are saying people are too stupid to ask questions and that we don't know what we want.. so we need the government to regulate everything to save the stupid people... or at least that is how your comment comes across. Please elaborate if that is not what you meant.
No that's pretty much what I meant
Ok though for real. Our bodies - our fat cells and metabolic systems and taste buds - are optimized to maximize our body fat because that helped us survive periods of famine. That's why we get fat and stay fat without some special commitment like daily calorie counting (which was a serious pain in the butt before e.g. mfp). That's why we love the kinds of things that make us fat. This happens without us really thinking about it.
Also, companies make money off of this fact. That's how they make a whack of profit, is by taking advantage of our fat cells and taste buds.
Calorie counting is a pain in the butt. Most people are ignorant of how to eat in a way that will help them not get or stay fat. Even when they know, it's hard, because body and mind fight it.
It's not that people are 'stupid', it's that 1) we have to fight a) our bodies and b) strong incentives by food manufacturers, advertisers and restaurants to not be fat, and 2) losing weight and keeping it off is really hard (not difficult, it's simple, but learning all the things you need to know to do it isn't easy and takes a lot of change for a lot of people).
So any help we can get, like governments forcing companies to make information available, is good
Because companies don't want us to think about how their food makes us fat. Because they make money off us not thinking about it.
No companies didn't make us fat, government forcing companies won't make us skinny. Learning how to lose weight isn't difficult, people make it difficult, but it's not. Sticking with it can be hard, but doesn't have to be miserable.
We got fat because we eat way too much of everything, we drive most places, we don't even get up anymore to change channels we all have remotes for everything. We are lazy.
Calorie counting is very easy to me, enter it adjust slightly done. It works and if you keep it simple its actually easy.
If I go into a restaurant and know I want to stay around my goals for the day and I have the choice between grilled chicken or fettucine alfredo .. I can make an easy pick on which one will better fit my goals for that day. Now if I go in and just finished a long bike ride I can easily go with the alfredo.
The more government gets involved and takes control the less people think for themselves and the more excuses you give people for not controlling their lives, their health and deciding whats best for them.
We need to stop blaming food companies, sugar, restaurants, the government, or whatever and whoever else for our poor decisions
0 -
I think you nailed it thank God......GiveMeCoffee wrote: »GiveMeCoffee wrote: »GiveMeCoffee wrote: »SkepticalOwl wrote: »It occurs to me that though many are saying that a government mandate to provide nutrition information is getting in the way of business, the mandate will actually make a free market in restaurant meals a possibility. The concept of the free market, and the idea of the "invisible hand" guiding it, presupposes perfect information on the part of the consumer. Arguing against people having more information on which to base their purchasing decisions is actually arguing against the most effective part of the capitalist system.
So arguing against government mandating calorie counts, is actually arguing against capitalism/the free market? Interesting
Can you please post where you got this idea?
Wouldn't it be something like, if consumers actually wanted this information they would stop buying from those establishments and if enough stopped purchasing the establishments would then give them the information they wanted ?
Your assumption that all consumers know what kind of knowledge they need to know to make informed decisions is adorable.
So you feel all consumers are not smart enough to make decisions for themselves and need the government to handle everything for us?
1) I think people who don't know what to ask for won't ask for it, re the post I originally responded to.
2) Haha, I'm out of this thread, if it's down to comments like that.
You make a condescending remark calling something adorable????
But yet I ask you a question and all your do is run out of the thread? I thought it was an honest question to your post.
You are saying people are too stupid to ask questions and that we don't know what we want.. so we need the government to regulate everything to save the stupid people... or at least that is how your comment comes across. Please elaborate if that is not what you meant.
No that's pretty much what I meant
Ok though for real. Our bodies - our fat cells and metabolic systems and taste buds - are optimized to maximize our body fat because that helped us survive periods of famine. That's why we get fat and stay fat without some special commitment like daily calorie counting (which was a serious pain in the butt before e.g. mfp). That's why we love the kinds of things that make us fat. This happens without us really thinking about it.
Also, companies make money off of this fact. That's how they make a whack of profit, is by taking advantage of our fat cells and taste buds.
Calorie counting is a pain in the butt. Most people are ignorant of how to eat in a way that will help them not get or stay fat. Even when they know, it's hard, because body and mind fight it.
It's not that people are 'stupid', it's that 1) we have to fight a) our bodies and b) strong incentives by food manufacturers, advertisers and restaurants to not be fat, and 2) losing weight and keeping it off is really hard (not difficult, it's simple, but learning all the things you need to know to do it isn't easy and takes a lot of change for a lot of people).
So any help we can get, like governments forcing companies to make information available, is good
Because companies don't want us to think about how their food makes us fat. Because they make money off us not thinking about it.
No companies didn't make us fat, government forcing companies won't make us skinny. Learning how to lose weight isn't difficult, people make it difficult, but it's not. Sticking with it can be hard, but doesn't have to be miserable.
We got fat because we eat way too much of everything, we drive most places, we don't even get up anymore to change channels we all have remotes for everything. We are lazy.
Calorie counting is very easy to me, enter it adjust slightly done. It works and if you keep it simple its actually easy.
If I go into a restaurant and know I want to stay around my goals for the day and I have the choice between grilled chicken or fettucine alfredo .. I can make an easy pick on which one will better fit my goals for that day. Now if I go in and just finished a long bike ride I can easily go with the alfredo.
The more government gets involved and takes control the less people think for themselves and the more excuses you give people for not controlling their lives, their health and deciding whats best for them.
We need to stop blaming food companies, sugar, restaurants, the government, or whatever and whoever else for our poor decisions
(*)0 -
This thread went from being merely sad to derp...can we go derper?
0 -
PikaKnight wrote: »I think the hope with that law is that it will push restaurants to give more low calorie options. Which frankly is a good thing. And it's only for chains with more than 20 restaurants I believe.
My favorite restaurants are local/non chain places as well but I really wish they would clearly show the low calorie options on their menu. Often it's just sandwiches or salads with all kinds of nuts and cheeses or breaded chicken or fish and it's just tough to figure out what's 'safest' to eat. Then you have the other extreme where the 'light menu' is pretty much egg whites with veggies and fruit or plain oatmeal and you just want to ask them if really they have no option between 300 and 1000 calories.
So you want the government to take care of you then, right?
No responsibilities for what you eat.
Huh what?
And yeah, I don't go out as much anymore. I fail to see how it's a bad thing, at least I'm saving money, and when we went out it was just with my family when I was too lazy to cook anyway... I still enjoy a good meal out once in a while. Just not once a week anymore. It is a lifestyle change after all.
And people who mention traveling... it totally sucked when I was in vacations for a week and we had to eat out all the time, quite frankly! Ended up gaining two pounds because a lot of places didn't have any 'healthy' choice, and I was hungry.
Your vacation sucked because you had to eat out and gained 2lbs.
Wow.
Ok... WTF? Where did I say that my vacation sucked? I said eating out every day sucked. And nowhere did I mention that it was necessarily some super tasty food. It was mostly diners and stuff, so not always the kind of stuff that is really worth the calories. We have two little kids. Going out to fancy places with them is not happening.
And it took me 2 months to get rid of those 2 pounds, for the record, so it wasn't really a 'temporary gain' (I gained 4, 2 of those were temporary, but again we spent a lot of time in the car). It's been hard for me to lose weight at this point so gaining weight because I didn't have that many options about what to eat sucked *for me*.
Wow you guys are really *****. Some of us DO care about that stuff. Why is it that hard to comprehend? Yeah 2 years ago I would have LOVED being able to go on vacations and eat out all the time. But that was 2 years ago, when I didn't care at all because I was in denial and thought I would never go over 200 pounds no matter how much I ate. Now I actually *gasp* care about what I eat. It has to be worth the calories. Believe it or not, having to eat pizza yet again when you would much rather eat something lighter does suck for some of us. And only seeing high calorie options on a menu when you had a big lunch but are still hungry can be quite disheartening at times. I love my pizza and my desserts and high calorie foods, but when I actually want them. And I need volume, half a high calorie meal will typically just leave me hungry 2 hours later.
I guess that 'everyone is different' is a concept that is going completely over your heads.
0 -
ermagerds, did I just read "HIDDEN CALORIES!"
Is that like a crouching chicken breast, hidden calorie thing?0
This discussion has been closed.
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