Strength and Weights
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I'm currently reading this. I'll respond once I get through it all but I will gladly throw my hat in the ring to anyone who is up for some friendly competition to those willing to compare results based on body weight max reps for numerous exercises. I'll give a 3 month window.
I've got a friendly competition for you. What's your Wilks in the big 3? Wait...have you ever competed? DYEL?
In for answer to RTalencar's question. And also for more worldly advice for Sara on how to lift...0 -
If you go on bodybuilding.com you can find some different weight lifting routines. You can click on the different exercises and they have videos that will show you how to perform them if you are unsure. I've done Jamie Eason's 12 week livefit trainer and I really liked the results I got from it.0
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I don't frequent a gym, so I can't argue smith machine, but if a barbell squat is intimidating, try dumbbell squats instead.If bodyweight squats and a 5kg dead Nobody starting out without much weight lifting knowledge would attempt a free weight squat. This is despite whether they are capable of it. There is an intimidation factor and also the unknowing of how much weight they can preform during the lift. We are giving advice to people starting out, not people who are experienced in a movement done by experienced gym-goers.
To be fair, I did free weight squats for a long time before I even a Smith Machine. Fist time I saw one in a gym I looked a it for 5 minutes rying to work out what it was. I think smeone must have been using it for pull ups as the bar was sitting just above my head height.
To the OP: read one of the 'new rules of lifting' books, that ought to give you a good idea of where to start - even if you decide on a different program.0 -
The New Rules of Lifting Supercharged is a great book written by guys who know what they are talking about. I didn't read all the replies, so don't know if anyone else recommended it. Squats are great!! The programs are simple and laid out for you. They illustrate everything. I don't live near a gym so free weights and no machines are what I do.0
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I'm currently reading this. I'll respond once I get through it all but I will gladly throw my hat in the ring to anyone who is up for some friendly competition to those willing to compare results based on body weight max reps for numerous exercises. I'll give a 3 month window.
I've got a friendly competition for you. What's your Wilks in the big 3? Wait...have you ever competed? DYEL?
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BUMP! I NEEEED this info!!! Thank you for asking this question!0
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Correct. Is there correlation to the Smith, a guided mechanism that is used to perfect form, that injures or hurts people who use it. Hence the reason for it's existence. I still recommended that someone who knows how to preform the moves to train the person to preform the lift correct and safely. I have no doubt that free weights are eventually the goal of the exercise but also know that it brings a higher risk of injury to those not educated in the movement.
This is false for several reasons. But assuming that using a Smith does give you the perfect form, you have have to either be standing or have the bench in the perfect spot to achieve this. One could be BP with the bench either too far forward or backward, thus not achieving the "perfect form". But then again, that's assuming that this would ever give anyone perfect form.0 -
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Just wanted to make sure the above wasn't lost amidst the figurative table-slapping and other shenanigans in this thread.I had no weightlifting knowledge in January when I started the Stronglifts program. I did my own research and started doing squats with the bar as was recommended in the program. I added the recommended weight as I could while keeping proper form. You don't have to have some sort of degree to start a weight lifting program. Sure, I was nervous at first but most people are nervous when they encounter anything new. I was nervous when I went to my first Zumba class.0 -
True. They're a great place to hang your workout towel. They're also convenient to lean on or sit on for rest between sets, since almost nobody in my gym uses the one we have.Smith machines have their uses, particularly in the bodybuilding world....
Oh, they're good for shrugs, too. Since the movement is only a few inches, the unnatural bar path doesn't create too much impingement...and you don't have to pick the weight up off the ground at the beginning of every set.0 -
True. They're a great place to hang your workout towel. They're also convenient to lean on or sit on for rest between sets, since almost nobody in my gym uses the one we have.Smith machines have their uses, particularly in the bodybuilding world....
Oh, they're good for shrugs, too. Since the movement is only a few inches, the unnatural bar path doesn't create too much impingement...and you don't have to pick the weight up off the ground at the beginning of every set.
Not trying to call you out Anvil, but this is from Yates:
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_interviews/dorian_yates_interviewT: Do you ever use Smith machines and do you have any strong opinions about that piece of equipment?
Dorian: Yeah, I used them for pressing movements, like incline press and shoulder press. I used it for squats, as well. I was brought up in the era of Tom Platz and he always said, "You've gotta squat; squats are the greatest thing for your thighs." Obviously it was true for Tom Platz. He had a good structure so that when he was squatting, the majority of the stress was taken by his quadriceps; his structure was quite short. So I was religiously squatting for the first five or six years that I was training. My legs were okay but they weren't great, until I began experimenting.
Then, squatting on a Smith machine, I could position my body so it was much more isolated on the quads, less glutes and lower back involvement, didn't have to worry about the balance aspect. Actually my legs improved a lot when I was doing Smith squats, hack squats, leg presses — I could isolate the thighs a lot more. So actually I used the Smith machine quite a bit for squatting.
Smith machines do have their uses. In bodybuilding it's much easier to isolate muscle groups with them. However, pound for pound when you're talking about just general strength and body composition, squats are FAR superior. The idea that you shouldn't learn how to do them because they're hard is idiotic.0 -
I'm currently reading this. I'll respond once I get through it all but I will gladly throw my hat in the ring to anyone who is up for some friendly competition to those willing to compare results based on body weight max reps for numerous exercises. I'll give a 3 month window.
I've got a friendly competition for you. What's your Wilks in the big 3? Wait...have you ever competed? DYEL?
Also still waiting on this.
*crickets0 -
I was being facetious (at least somewhat). Sure, they have legitimate uses such as the ones you mentioned - but for Joe/Jane Average who aren't bodybuilders with a specific reason to use them (and the knowledge of how and when they should be used), I think free weights are a better/safer alternative. I've tried squatting and benching on the Smith machine (when I was being coached by somebody who didn't know what they were doing) - the bar path felt unnatural and uncomfortable to me because neither of those are purely linear movements.Not trying to call you out Anvil, but this is from Yates:
<quote snipped for brevity>
I'm certainly not going to call Dorian Yates out as being incorrect - dude has forgotten more about lifting than I'll ever know, and you can't argue with results - but he did it for a specific reason and had plenty of knowledge about the biomechanics of lifting weights.0 -
I was being facetious (at least somewhat). Sure, they have legitimate uses such as the ones you mentioned - but for Joe/Jane Average who aren't bodybuilders with a specific reason to use them (and the knowledge of how and when they should be used), I think free weights are a better/safer alternative. I've tried squatting and benching on the Smith machine (when I was being coached by somebody who didn't know what they were doing) - the bar path felt unnatural and uncomfortable to me because neither of those are purely linear movements.Not trying to call you out Anvil, but this is from Yates:
<quote snipped for brevity>
Totally fair. Again not trying to knock your knowledge base or anything but there's so much crap information going on in this thread I think it's important to give as much accurate info as possible.
And yes, while not useless, for the average lifter get out from under the smith and use a real barbell.0 -
Wow what a thread!!!!!0
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Wow what a thread!!!!!
*Me and the fat cat head back to the "Green & Blacks"*0 -
I am not sure if MattDemon is still posting on this thread, but....
I have used free weights and a Smith Machine. If I do not have access to free weights, I do goblet squats.
The last time I used a smith machine for squats, I ended up in the hospital with a double laminectomy, double discectomy on L4 L5.
It promotes bad form, and puts your body in an unnatural range of motion.
Stay away from the Smith Machine.0 -
I mean sorry but this is simply not true lol. Unless you have a partner spotting you, or you are experienced in the lift, the Smith machine does wonders. The Smith is technically a "machine", even though it can be preformed incorrectly it does force form.
If you do have a trainer and he has accepted a new trainee into weight lifting, it is not often that they bring them to free weight squats and deadlifts. If you have the expertise, I'd gladly trust you to teach others how to preform these lifts properly. Squats and Deadlifts do bring a high more than most exercises. I highly suggest people aim for this activity.
Because the bar is in a fixed position, it puts your spine in improper alignment. Furthermore, if you learn how to utilize a smith machine you are only building the motor skills FOR THAT MACHINE. As soon as you remove it, you might as well be starting from scratch. That's like squatting with a band around your knee's for weeks on end to learn to how push your knees out and then suddenly removing it.
Bro, do you even lift?0 -
Just wanted to make sure the above wasn't lost amidst the figurative table-slapping and other shenanigans in this thread.I had no weightlifting knowledge in January when I started the Stronglifts program. I did my own research and started doing squats with the bar as was recommended in the program. I added the recommended weight as I could while keeping proper form. You don't have to have some sort of degree to start a weight lifting program. Sure, I was nervous at first but most people are nervous when they encounter anything new. I was nervous when I went to my first Zumba class.
Why, thank you!0 -
I had never set foot in a gym before the beginning of the year. I heard all about NROLFW, bought the book, read it. I YouTubed the heck out of squat and deadlift form. I now squat and dead 150 lbs using the barbell. Was I a little intimidated at first? Sure! But I started with just the bar, got my form down, and then started adding weights. I have yet to hurt myself *knock on wood*, and no I don't use a spotter yet as I can handle that weight on my squats just fine. I've never seen someone build up confidence in themselves by hearing they can't do something.
To the OP: I am working my way through NROLFW right now, I am almost to Stage 3. It is an excellent book. I did find some of the instructions on the lifts to be slightly lacking, but YouTube has pretty much every exercise every, and has been a great resource.0 -
He seems to have disappeared after being called out on his lifts.I am not sure if MattDemon is still posting on this thread, but....0 -
I have recently just rejoined my local gym. I have my cardio program worked out and working smoothly however this is not the case with my strength program... as strength/weights arent my strong point i would like to know what kind of program i could start off with? any suggestions would be a huge help!
Not sure about you but I do strength training to boost my calorie burn. What? I can hear you say... but hear me out. Unlike cardio, strength training enables you to burn calories even when you've stopped doing it! It can even carry on to the following day. I do 3 lots of 10 including arm curls and bench presses, and I try to include a few free weight exercises too and mainly on my upper body although I do like the leg press as well. I always do my weights first, that way, when you do your cardio (for me it's interval training on the treadmill), you burn the second you start. I can't say how heavy to have your weights but the last 4 or 5 of the third set should be a real struggle. If not, there's no point!
What happens is your muscle tissue tears slightly during the exercise which burns calories in itself. In addition, you will continue to burn calories whilst your muscles are repairing themselves as well which can continue for up to 72 hours after your workout.
Just something to think about... good luck!
It's not that I want to say "you get it", but "you're doing it".
Thank you... :-)0 -
I'm currently reading this. I'll respond once I get through it all but I will gladly throw my hat in the ring to anyone who is up for some friendly competition to those willing to compare results based on body weight max reps for numerous exercises. I'll give a 3 month window.
I've got a friendly competition for you. What's your Wilks in the big 3? Wait...have you ever competed? DYEL?
Hey sorry guys, I was busy. Yeah, I'm down. Bring it on. There is nothing to lose here, only to gain with any who participates. Do know the beginning argument was people how suggest doing SQUATS EVERYDAY (HAHAHA) to those doing the lift less frequently but more intense for STRENGTH gains.
ALSO REMEMBER THIS IS ADVICE TO A BEGINNER AT WEIGHT LIFTING.
The other argument was people injuring themselves more frequently through free weight than machines, which I think is undeniable LOL. Weight is seriously a factor, also another person was trying to hate on the amount of smith machines. How many free weight squat stations do you have at your gym? Look at one half, look at the other, what is the machine/free weight ratio. If you see my responses you see I am clearly PRO FREE WEIGHT.
I've debunked the links of Sara or whoever that is, I don't care. Get me 1 on 1 with the guy who wrote the article and you'll find the truth; we would agree on most things! I actually asked some of the biggest most cut guys at my gym and asked what the **** is a 5x5 program. Non had a clue. Then I told them if doing free weight squats everyday as a novice lifter was favorable (with all seriousness) and the response was laughter.0 -
He seems to have disappeared after being called out on his lifts.I am not sure if MattDemon is still posting on this thread, but....
Still here. Who would like to challenge me. Get the most fit/athletic guy you know. I have nothing to lose. Bodyweight per major exercise/verticle jump whatever.
The problem is you don't know who I am but think you know people but aren't willing to step forward. It doesn't matter. People talk, I'm waiting...0 -
I'm currently reading this. I'll respond once I get through it all but I will gladly throw my hat in the ring to anyone who is up for some friendly competition to those willing to compare results based on body weight max reps for numerous exercises. I'll give a 3 month window.
I've got a friendly competition for you. What's your Wilks in the big 3? Wait...have you ever competed? DYEL?
What is that? Competed in what? Olympic lifting? Not my goal but it wouldn't matter. Pound for pound. Funny thing is you're the only one to "challenge" me and your views line with mine. You respect dorian yates and understand the importance of isolation and strength gains as well as using machines as a ladder. The topic has sort of derailed but seriously still, friend me and bring it on.0 -
I have recently just rejoined my local gym. I have my cardio program worked out and working smoothly however this is not the case with my strength program... as strength/weights arent my strong point i would like to know what kind of program i could start off with? any suggestions would be a huge help!
As much as I don't want to discourage others advice I do not recommend doing SQUATS and DEADLIFTS as a novice weight lifter. Might as well do 1 handed pushups and swim the pacific ocean...
Unless you have someone train you into preforming these lifts, preferably on a Smith machine (guided bar) then forget about it. It's not necessary, and if you're doing squats everyday... :eyes roll:
If you're just starting out, I would spend a day doing upper body and lower body. Hit all the major muscle groups using the machines, they are typically located by muscle group on 1 half of the gym. Chest/Triceps/Back/Biceps/Shoulders and then the next day do lower body. You'll suffer some serious DOMS effect (Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness). Your body will need time to recover. You can continue your cardio throughout the week and wait to hit the weights again the following week. This is only to jump start your resilience and recovery to a weight lifting regimen.
Do this for a couple weeks and see how you feel. The muscle soreness usually hits a day or two later. After that, sore or not, you should* be able to train that muscle again. The first few weeks are the hardest, stay with it.
*Once you're accustom to lifting, there are studies that show power is not lost when preforming exercises on muscles that are rested for a couple days despite soreness. This is also where problems with doing squats everyday may not be beneficial.
If you're just starting out, master the LUNGE, it's a brilliant move that despite it's simplicity, has a strict and effective form that requires attention.
Good luck.
I can't take you seriously when you say squat in a Smith Machine.
Squatting works everything from you shoulders on down, but the most important thing is is develops core strength, core stability and kinesthetic awareness (sensitivity to the moment of your body through space that contributes to your ability to balance and move rhythmically and fluidly).
Smith Machines (actually ANY machine) remove the ability for your body to learn kinesthetic awareness and strengthen your core.
BTW there's nothing wrong with squatting 3x/week. If you want to learn proper form, you can YouTube "Mark Rippetoe".
As others have said, if you are truly STRENGTH training, then StrongLifts 5x5 or Starting Strength are great. You start off with an empty bar and work your way up as you gain strength. It's a fairly quick workout, but covers pretty much the whole body. It beats the heck out of hundreds of isolation reps (unless your goal is to look pretty posing in a mirror).
But either way, FORM IS CRUCIAL. Always better to use a lighter weight and keep your form perfect than to lift heavier and had *kitten* form. Bad form is how you get injured.0 -
He seems to have disappeared after being called out on his lifts.I am not sure if MattDemon is still posting on this thread, but....
Still here. Who would like to challenge me. Get the most fit/athletic guy you know. I have nothing to lose. Bodyweight per major exercise/verticle jump whatever.
The problem is you don't know who I am but think you know people but aren't willing to step forward. It doesn't matter. People talk, I'm waiting...
Wilks score is very, very relevant to this discussion. It's essentially a method of comparing strength across several variables including gender.
You should go here and calculate yours and compare it to Sara's since you called her out on her lifts.
http://wilkscalculator.com/
EDIT: You would plug in your bench, squat, and deadlift 1RMs along with your bodyweight. (Sum of those lifts).
If it's a smith-squat I'd disregard though, just sayin.0 -
I'm currently reading this. I'll respond once I get through it all but I will gladly throw my hat in the ring to anyone who is up for some friendly competition to those willing to compare results based on body weight max reps for numerous exercises. I'll give a 3 month window.
I've got a friendly competition for you. What's your Wilks in the big 3? Wait...have you ever competed? DYEL?
Hey sorry guys, I was busy. Yeah, I'm down. Bring it on. There is nothing to lose here, only to gain with any who participates. Do know the beginning argument was people how suggest doing SQUATS EVERYDAY (HAHAHA) to those doing the lift less frequently but more intense for STRENGTH gains.
ALSO REMEMBER THIS IS ADVICE TO A BEGINNER AT WEIGHT LIFTING.
The other argument was people injuring themselves more frequently through free weight than machines, which I think is undeniable LOL. Weight is seriously a factor, also another person was trying to hate on the amount of smith machines. How many free weight squat stations do you have at your gym? Look at one half, look at the other, what is the machine/free weight ratio. If you see my responses you see I am clearly PRO FREE WEIGHT.
I've debunked the links of Sara or whoever that is, I don't care. Get me 1 on 1 with the guy who wrote the article and you'll find the truth; we would agree on most things! I actually asked some of the biggest most cut guys at my gym and asked what the **** is a 5x5 program. Non had a clue. Then I told them if doing free weight squats everyday as a novice lifter was favorable (with all seriousness) and the response was laughter.
that says more about the ripped guys at your gym than it does about 5x5 programs.
Also, no-one said beginners should do free weight squats *every day*... the programs being referred to tell beginners to do free weight squats 3x a week, not on consecutive days.
The smith machine stabilises the barbell for you, thus failing to engage the muscles needed to stabilise the barbell. Starting from scratch with free weights not only is possible, it's preferable as your stabilising muscles get strong along with the rest of you. I did that, i.e. bodyweight squats, then squats with dumbbells on my shoulders, then squats with a barbell on my shoulders, then progressively building up the weight on the barbell. That's how beginner programmes like 5x5 work. At no point do you need a smith machine, but you are still starting with manageable weights, learning correct form, the building up the weights as your strength increases. It is all done with free weights though, so the stabilising muscles are strengthened right from the start.0 -
I actually asked some of the biggest most cut guys at my gym and asked what the **** is a 5x5 program. Non had a clue. Then I told them if doing free weight squats everyday as a novice lifter was favorable (with all seriousness) and the response was laughter.
1. Being 'cut' has nothing to do with lifting.
2. Being 'big' doesn't mean you are strong OR fit.
3. Training for body building is NOT training for strength. If everyone you asked has never heard of a 5x5 program then you are asking the wrong people for opinions. The 1970's 'Arnold Rules' are archaic for overall fitness in the 21st century unless you are specifically a body builder.
4. If you are squatting every day, you are doing it wrong. You are also misrepresenting a 5x5 program to a bunch of split lifters. Of course they are going to laugh because they only have 'leg day' once a week, maybe twice.
OP: it's all about YOUR goals. Google around for something that will meet your goals and keep you engaged. Working out should be fun, but still kick your a**. Your goals will determine what program/routine/style you should be doing.
If you haven't looked into CrossFit, you may want to.0 -
I'm currently reading this. I'll respond once I get through it all but I will gladly throw my hat in the ring to anyone who is up for some friendly competition to those willing to compare results based on body weight max reps for numerous exercises. I'll give a 3 month window.
I've got a friendly competition for you. What's your Wilks in the big 3? Wait...have you ever competed? DYEL?
What is that? Competed in what? Olympic lifting? Not my goal but it wouldn't matter. Pound for pound. Funny thing is you're the only one to "challenge" me and your views line with mine. You respect dorian yates and understand the importance of isolation and strength gains as well as using machines as a ladder. The topic has sort of derailed but seriously still, friend me and bring it on.
Clearly you know what you're talking about since you think the big 3 is olympic weightlifting (I'll give you a hint...it's not).
My views aren't in line with yours. You have this idea that there is only one way to do things right (in this case, using a smith instead of learning how to squat properly) while I try to take things in context.
I used the Yates example to acknowledge that smith machines aren't useless (particularly for bodybuilders) however I did clarify that for strength gains freeweight squats are far superior. I also underlined that there is no reason why beginners shouldn't attempt to learn proper form for such techniques and that it is not at all like 'swimming across the Pacific'. Although Yates was (and is, actually) very strong, his goal and reason for using a smith machine had to do with bodybuilding, and not strength.
I don't need to friend you to challenge you.
I'll be going to this event: 30th Anniversary USAPL New Jersey State Open Powerlifting Championships
If you want to sign up, go here: http://www.powerliftingwatch.com/powerlifting-meets/usapl/2013/new
You live in Oregon, so that's a long way to travel, so alternatively go here: http://www.powerliftingwatch.com/powerlifting-meets
Find a meet and sign up, I could demand you go to USAPL since they're harsher judges than most, but go to any one of those. Tell me your last name ahead of time and I'll verify your results against mine.
My last name is Alencar and I'll be competing in the under 275 division.0
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