My 600 Pound Life?
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Starting to think that Pauline is a professional moocher...Lourdesong wrote: »
On a related note, Pauline was apparently on the Dr. Phil show many years ago, and he gave her every thing we could imagine that one might need to facilitate success, including portioned meals delivered to her home for her and her son so that not even the inconvenience of shopping and preparing meals would be obstacle for her. And yet, she didn't change. She still chose to overeat and not move.
And I'd argue that allocating resources towards professional food preparation or in-home round-the-clock care as they develop mobility would be money better well spent than would putting obese people on the couch in the some therapists office to yammer about their past and their feelz.
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He's also a surgeon, and surgeons aren't exactly known for their wonderful bedside manners.toronto416 wrote: »'Dr. Now' does his best. If he comes across as direct and unsympathetic, you have to remember that he's very old-world/eastern European and that's just the way a lot of people are over there. They don't intend to be rude, but they're not going to use nice words and avoid the central issue.
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when I watch that show I exercise.it motivates me.I can't eat when I watch it,either.tracyannk28 wrote: »Kinda OT but I didn't know where else to post this...
Have any of you seen this show on TLC? I'm just curious of your thoughts...knowing what we've all learned here about eating at a deficit to lose weight and watching these people struggle and have such a hard time giving up fast food, etc. even when it's threatening their lives and costing them their families.0 -
I agree, and yet there was also something positive about that group in affirming themselves as valuable and appealing even though they were at the opposite extreme of the culturally defined image of attractiveness.Lourdesong wrote: »... My argument wasn't that she didn't deserve better, or that he had every right to treat her that way, it's that she spent the majority of her adult life rejecting the idea that her weight was a problem, and got involved in a culture that positively reinforced being in denial, and married a man who likewise positively reinforced her being in denial because he was a fat fetishist. Her entire world was built on rejecting that her weight is a problem. The situation with her husband may not have been ideal, but it was an entirely predictable outcome, and losing weight is what gave her the strength to get out of it.
I just wanted to say I love your profile pic Sean Connery is THE man.
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toronto416 wrote: »This season's patients/participants appear to be in even worse condition than before. I really applaud those who succeed for losing the weight, but no matter what, their internal organs have endured 600-800 pounds of body weight for a long time. They might be 23-43 years old, but their heart, liver, kidneys etc must be that of an 80+ year old. So many of them have been sexually abused in ways most of us could never imagine or as children treated worse than any of us could bear to endure. Nobody gets to 800 pounds by eating too much. I'm impressed by those who have worked hard, but I have to wonder what their life expectancy will be. Of course these people don't work. They can't even get out of their beds. I mean, they've literally in prison in their apartments/homes/trailers/cabins. It's sad really. What really infuriates me, as a fitness professional and social worker, are the women who are married to these thin men who 'want these girls to stay 600 pounds otherwise they won't be sexually attracted to them'. Unreal! So they're willing to let their wives die from complications related to morbid obesity rather than seeing their wives (and mothers of their children) live to see 50 and get to actually go places with their kids.
'Dr. Now' does his best. If he comes across as direct and unsympathetic, you have to remember that he's very old-world/eastern European and that's just the way a lot of people are over there. They don't intend to be rude, but they're not going to use nice words and avoid the central issue. I think most of these patients are better knowing the brutal truth rather than having their hands held through the process. He needs to see they've put forth some effort before he will invest his time and team. I know it's very risky to do these procedures (here in Canada it's very hard to get bariatric surgery in the first place as it's often not seen as a necessity; many people here who are in that condition will go to hospitals in Duluth, Minnesota where they specialize in that) but I'm surprised there hasn't been a couple other doctors who have watched Dr. Now and decided to learn from him. These poor people shouldn't have to drive 20 hours to Houston to get this done.
There was also a show in on TLC called "My weight is killing me" also went under the name "Big Medicine" in that one two doctors father and son team in Houston preform the surgeries. The doctors perform bariatric surgeries on morbidly obese individuals weighing from 400 to 1000 pounds Dr. Robert Davis and son Garth Davis. But now Dr. Garth Davis, has completely changed his viewpoint on weight loss. He now advocates a plant-based, whole foods diet and lifestyle change before resorting to surgery.0 -
I am surprised the Dr at the clinic in Houston does the surgery on any of these patients. I have only seen one or two of them become succesful at living a healthier lifestyle. Some of them gain mobility through the procedure but not to the point where they aren't still morbidly obese and disabled. I think there is a lot better paths to help people with addiction that is rooted in PTSD. To me they behave like manipulative drug addicts on the program and I think the therapies offered to drug addicts are more succesful.0
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Lourdesong wrote: »DearestWinter wrote: »Zsalynn's husband was disgusting. I just have trouble seeing any reason for the passive aggressive and insulting behavior he exhibited. Even if he lost all attraction to her after she lost the weight he could have been mature about it so they could both move on with their lives. Sure, she made the decision to lose the weight (and become healthier) which was going to eliminate her fulfillment of his ideal, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't care about her as a person and be able to respect her decision (and her) while they work out how best to separate.
I would feel the same way if someone gained 200 lbs in a relationship (and had zero interest in losing it). Their partner may not be happy and may ultimately decide to end things but that doesn't mean they have to be disrespectful and cruel in the process.
Maybe I'm too idealistic when it comes to relationships.
This. I'm really not seeing that it was cool of Zsalynn's husband to be so verbally abusive (disgusting, actually...I mean I'm not using the word "abusive" lightly here) to both Zsalynn and their daughter, just because she realized he was initially attracted to her because of her weight.
Just not getting that connection, unless I'm misunderstanding.
Your second paragraph demonstrates this very well - would it be okay to be abusive to a spouse who had gained weight? I'm thinking no. Correct?
I doubt that just because they met at a fat acceptance seminar, Zsalynn should have expected and should accept that not only would the man ultimately be downright cruel to her, but also to their future child.
No one is defending her worthless pos husband, or saying that she should accept abuse.
And she made an ad of herself in a 2-piece thong lingerie (she looked 500 lbs to me) on a website and he responded. Pretty sure it was a site for people like him, since that was part of the story of the culture she was involved with, not 100% certain tho. For some reason I don't think she was advertising herself on Match.
Yes, it would have been super if he turned out to be a good decent guy who loved her for the right reasons, but he wasn't and he didn't. My argument wasn't that she didn't deserve better, or that he had every right to treat her that way, it's that she spent the majority of her adult life rejecting the idea that her weight was a problem, and got involved in a culture that positively reinforced being in denial, and married a man who likewise positively reinforced her being in denial because he was a fat fetishist. Her entire world was built on rejecting that her weight is a problem. The situation with her husband may not have been ideal, but it was an entirely predictable outcome, and losing weight is what gave her the strength to get out of it.
Hmmmm.
I'm wondering what non-fat "fetishist" sites don't involve the men scrolling through pictures and making sure the woman they choose to contact will give them a boner (and you can be darned sure there are tons of bikini pics on dating sites - of thin women) consistently before contacting them since, you know, sexual attraction is part of a romantic relationship. Do you know of any? Go on lots of dating sites where no pictures are allowed, because unless they're all after one another for their hearts and brains first, they should expect to be abused? They know what they're getting into, etc.?
When you really, really, really love somebody's heart and brain but aren't sexually attracted to him/her, there's a simple word for that. That word is "friends." (Or possibly "mother," "father" or "sibling.")
The take-home here being "pretty much every instance of a man approaching a woman for a romantic partnership necessarily requires he be sexually attracted to her, but while thin people shouldn't expect a negative result due to that simple, biological fact, fat people should expect it, because it's a 'culture' with a 'predictable' outcome. This should be the obvious expectation of any fat person who dares to want a relationship, so the blame is on her."
I disagree. However, I don't know about the "culture" of fat "fetishists" so I am going to take your word for this.
Now before you say "but these are specifically fat fetishist sites!," I think fat people do know the playing field is smaller. They must. Therefore the people they seek must necessarily enjoy or at least not mind the weight when it comes to a romantic relationship; ergo, sites specifically for heavier people, because on regular dating sites, they will definitely be passed by. But I'm not sure that has to fall under "fetishist" in every case nor do I think the person can expect abuse and "know what she is getting into" and that the relationship is doomed. There are sites specifically for black people; I doubt you could classify all visitors as fetishists and state "well, then, any black woman on the site knows what she's getting into, with a predictable outcome." Same with Christian sites...sites for people over 50...dating sites for any specific category of individuals.
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Lourdesong wrote: »DearestWinter wrote: »Zsalynn's husband was disgusting. I just have trouble seeing any reason for the passive aggressive and insulting behavior he exhibited. Even if he lost all attraction to her after she lost the weight he could have been mature about it so they could both move on with their lives. Sure, she made the decision to lose the weight (and become healthier) which was going to eliminate her fulfillment of his ideal, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't care about her as a person and be able to respect her decision (and her) while they work out how best to separate.
I would feel the same way if someone gained 200 lbs in a relationship (and had zero interest in losing it). Their partner may not be happy and may ultimately decide to end things but that doesn't mean they have to be disrespectful and cruel in the process.
Maybe I'm too idealistic when it comes to relationships.
This. I'm really not seeing that it was cool of Zsalynn's husband to be so verbally abusive (disgusting, actually...I mean I'm not using the word "abusive" lightly here) to both Zsalynn and their daughter, just because she realized he was initially attracted to her because of her weight.
Just not getting that connection, unless I'm misunderstanding.
Your second paragraph demonstrates this very well - would it be okay to be abusive to a spouse who had gained weight? I'm thinking no. Correct?
I doubt that just because they met at a fat acceptance seminar, Zsalynn should have expected and should accept that not only would the man ultimately be downright cruel to her, but also to their future child.
No one is defending her worthless pos husband, or saying that she should accept abuse.
And she made an ad of herself in a 2-piece thong lingerie (she looked 500 lbs to me) on a website and he responded. Pretty sure it was a site for people like him, since that was part of the story of the culture she was involved with, not 100% certain tho. For some reason I don't think she was advertising herself on Match.
Yes, it would have been super if he turned out to be a good decent guy who loved her for the right reasons, but he wasn't and he didn't. My argument wasn't that she didn't deserve better, or that he had every right to treat her that way, it's that she spent the majority of her adult life rejecting the idea that her weight was a problem, and got involved in a culture that positively reinforced being in denial, and married a man who likewise positively reinforced her being in denial because he was a fat fetishist. Her entire world was built on rejecting that her weight is a problem. The situation with her husband may not have been ideal, but it was an entirely predictable outcome, and losing weight is what gave her the strength to get out of it.
Hmmmm.
I'm wondering what non-fat "fetishist" sites don't involve the men scrolling through pictures and making sure the woman they choose to contact will give them a boner (and you can be darned sure there are tons of bikini pics on dating sites - of thin women) consistently before contacting them since, you know, sexual attraction is part of a romantic relationship. Do you know of any? Go on lots of dating sites where no pictures are allowed, because unless they're all after one another for their hearts and brains first, they should expect to be abused? They know what they're getting into, etc.?
When you really, really, really love somebody's heart and brain but aren't sexually attracted to him/her, there's a simple word for that. That word is "friends." (Or possibly "mother," "father" or "sibling.")
The take-home here being "pretty much every instance of a man approaching a woman for a romantic partnership necessarily requires he be sexually attracted to her, but while thin people shouldn't expect a negative result due to that simple, biological fact, fat people should expect it, because it's a 'culture' with a 'predictable' outcome. This should be the obvious expectation of any fat person who dares to want a relationship, so the blame is on her."
I disagree. However, I don't know about the "culture" of fat "fetishists" so I am going to take your word for this.
Now before you say "but these are specifically fat fetishist sites!," I think fat people do know the playing field is smaller. They must. Therefore the people they seek must necessarily enjoy or at least not mind the weight when it comes to a romantic relationship; ergo, sites specifically for heavier people, because on regular dating sites, they will definitely be passed by. But I'm not sure that has to fall under "fetishist" in every case nor do I think the person can expect abuse and "know what she is getting into" and that the relationship is doomed. There are sites specifically for black people; I doubt you could classify all visitors as fetishists and state "well, then, any black woman on the site knows what she's getting into, with a predictable outcome." Same with Christian sites...sites for people over 50...dating sites for any specific category of individuals.
Fat fetishists, or "feeders" prefer for their women to be fat and are turned on by their partner getting fatter. I don't condone these men being abusive, but if they are meeting their wives on fat fetishist websites, that in itself is saying "i don't want you to lose weight." It's not about "not minding" that someone is fat, it's about preferring an obese mate.
Look at Betty-jo and her husband, he didn't want her to lose weight because part of his fetish is knowing his partner is immobile and needs him to care for her.0 -
The blame is on her for surrounding herself with people who reinforce the lie that her weight isn't problematic, which was part of my argument that the weight is the problem not a symptom of some other problem. You, LAWoman, seem very lost in this conversation. I told you how they met because you, in the post I quoted, said they met at a fat acceptance seminar, and they did not.
My problem with her and a lot of these people on this show, and some of the people in this thread, is the denial that the weight is the problem and the insistence that it's a symptom of something else (not overeating tho, no, not the thing that actually has a concrete causal relationship with accumulation of fat) and the something else is what needs to be tackled, not the weight, not the overeating, not what is actually killing these people. Zsalynn's success was finally owning and tackling her weight problem, the problem she had been denying and running from her whole life.
Please stay on topic.
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The take-home here being "pretty much every instance of a man approaching a woman for a romantic partnership necessarily requires he be sexually attracted to her, but while thin people shouldn't expect a negative result due to that simple, biological fact, fat people should expect it, because it's a 'culture' with a 'predictable' outcome. This should be the obvious expectation of any fat person who dares to want a relationship, so the blame is on her."
I disagree. However, I don't know about the "culture" of fat "fetishists" so I am going to take your word for this.
Now before you say "but these are specifically fat fetishist sites!," I think fat people do know the playing field is smaller. They must. Therefore the people they seek must necessarily enjoy or at least not mind the weight when it comes to a romantic relationship; ergo, sites specifically for heavier people, because on regular dating sites, they will definitely be passed by. But I'm not sure that has to fall under "fetishist" in every case nor do I think the person can expect abuse and "know what she is getting into" and that the relationship is doomed. There are sites specifically for black people; I doubt you could classify all visitors as fetishists and state "well, then, any black woman on the site knows what she's getting into, with a predictable outcome." Same with Christian sites...sites for people over 50...dating sites for any specific category of individuals.
Without going into too much detail, like any other preference it's a broad spectrum, with feederism/SSBBW being the exception rather than the rule. Even so a lot of that is mutual (think BDSM), but like any relationship based purely on sex/sexual fantasy, it gets toxic very quickly. Ironically a lot of BBW actually puts the woman in a position of control or empowerment (whilst they actually are in control, in many cases there's underlying emotional issues, and all it needs is one slimeball to exploit that.
You pretty much nailed it in the last part; there's plenty of other examples where the extremes get picked out rather than the majority (skinny => ED, big boobs/butt => BD & extreme surgery).
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I've been watching this show alot more lately. It terrifies me into exercising.0
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levitateme wrote: »Lourdesong wrote: »DearestWinter wrote: »Zsalynn's husband was disgusting. I just have trouble seeing any reason for the passive aggressive and insulting behavior he exhibited. Even if he lost all attraction to her after she lost the weight he could have been mature about it so they could both move on with their lives. Sure, she made the decision to lose the weight (and become healthier) which was going to eliminate her fulfillment of his ideal, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't care about her as a person and be able to respect her decision (and her) while they work out how best to separate.
I would feel the same way if someone gained 200 lbs in a relationship (and had zero interest in losing it). Their partner may not be happy and may ultimately decide to end things but that doesn't mean they have to be disrespectful and cruel in the process.
Maybe I'm too idealistic when it comes to relationships.
This. I'm really not seeing that it was cool of Zsalynn's husband to be so verbally abusive (disgusting, actually...I mean I'm not using the word "abusive" lightly here) to both Zsalynn and their daughter, just because she realized he was initially attracted to her because of her weight.
Just not getting that connection, unless I'm misunderstanding.
Your second paragraph demonstrates this very well - would it be okay to be abusive to a spouse who had gained weight? I'm thinking no. Correct?
I doubt that just because they met at a fat acceptance seminar, Zsalynn should have expected and should accept that not only would the man ultimately be downright cruel to her, but also to their future child.
No one is defending her worthless pos husband, or saying that she should accept abuse.
And she made an ad of herself in a 2-piece thong lingerie (she looked 500 lbs to me) on a website and he responded. Pretty sure it was a site for people like him, since that was part of the story of the culture she was involved with, not 100% certain tho. For some reason I don't think she was advertising herself on Match.
Yes, it would have been super if he turned out to be a good decent guy who loved her for the right reasons, but he wasn't and he didn't. My argument wasn't that she didn't deserve better, or that he had every right to treat her that way, it's that she spent the majority of her adult life rejecting the idea that her weight was a problem, and got involved in a culture that positively reinforced being in denial, and married a man who likewise positively reinforced her being in denial because he was a fat fetishist. Her entire world was built on rejecting that her weight is a problem. The situation with her husband may not have been ideal, but it was an entirely predictable outcome, and losing weight is what gave her the strength to get out of it.
Hmmmm.
I'm wondering what non-fat "fetishist" sites don't involve the men scrolling through pictures and making sure the woman they choose to contact will give them a boner (and you can be darned sure there are tons of bikini pics on dating sites - of thin women) consistently before contacting them since, you know, sexual attraction is part of a romantic relationship. Do you know of any? Go on lots of dating sites where no pictures are allowed, because unless they're all after one another for their hearts and brains first, they should expect to be abused? They know what they're getting into, etc.?
When you really, really, really love somebody's heart and brain but aren't sexually attracted to him/her, there's a simple word for that. That word is "friends." (Or possibly "mother," "father" or "sibling.")
The take-home here being "pretty much every instance of a man approaching a woman for a romantic partnership necessarily requires he be sexually attracted to her, but while thin people shouldn't expect a negative result due to that simple, biological fact, fat people should expect it, because it's a 'culture' with a 'predictable' outcome. This should be the obvious expectation of any fat person who dares to want a relationship, so the blame is on her."
I disagree. However, I don't know about the "culture" of fat "fetishists" so I am going to take your word for this.
Now before you say "but these are specifically fat fetishist sites!," I think fat people do know the playing field is smaller. They must. Therefore the people they seek must necessarily enjoy or at least not mind the weight when it comes to a romantic relationship; ergo, sites specifically for heavier people, because on regular dating sites, they will definitely be passed by. But I'm not sure that has to fall under "fetishist" in every case nor do I think the person can expect abuse and "know what she is getting into" and that the relationship is doomed. There are sites specifically for black people; I doubt you could classify all visitors as fetishists and state "well, then, any black woman on the site knows what she's getting into, with a predictable outcome." Same with Christian sites...sites for people over 50...dating sites for any specific category of individuals.
Fat fetishists, or "feeders" prefer for their women to be fat and are turned on by their partner getting fatter. I don't condone these men being abusive, but if they are meeting their wives on fat fetishist websites, that in itself is saying "i don't want you to lose weight." It's not about "not minding" that someone is fat, it's about preferring an obese mate.
Look at Betty-jo and her husband, he didn't want her to lose weight because part of his fetish is knowing his partner is immobile and needs him to care for her.
But does every fat fetishist want their partner to be super-obese and completely dependent? I got the impression that Zsalyn at least expected her husband to be happy with the 300 pounds she was when they met, when she was active and outgoing. Was that unrealistic of her i.e. are there no men who actually want a 300 pound happy and vivacious woman?0 -
But does every fat fetishist want their partner to be super-obese and completely dependent? I got the impression that Zsalyn at least expected her husband to be happy with the 300 pounds she was when they met, when she was active and outgoing. Was that unrealistic of her i.e. are there no men who actually want a 300 pound happy and vivacious woman?
Though this is in response to someone else, I just want to say that her expecting her husband to honor and love her and respect and support her choices about what's best for her health was not wrong. He certainly failed her and their child by prioritizing his sexual needs over doing right as a husband and father and she did the right thing kicking him to the curb for his failure. Just because it was predictable that he would be a POS who would prioritize his sexual needs over everything else doesn't mean that he's not therefore a complete failure as a man.
As far as him wanting a happy 300 lb woman, if she was 300 when they met (she looked a lot bigger, but I don't recall the number they said she was so I'll take 300 for sake of argument) then he had to have been into feederism or something because she was hundreds of pounds larger than that when he was waving burgers in her face. Though weight loss is hard and not often successful for most, he sure was threatened just at the idea that she would lose not just several hundred to get back down to what she was when they met, but possibly even more than that. She was pretty open about her husband having "needs" (blech) that hinged on her weight, so it's not like his fetish was some new revelation to her, she seemed very aware of it and what she must do to fulfill his needs. I think their relationship wasn't just some benign variance or whatever, like I wouldn't put him in the same category as a man who prefers the aesthetic of overweight and obese women over healthy and under weight women.
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levitateme wrote: »Lourdesong wrote: »DearestWinter wrote: »Zsalynn's husband was disgusting. I just have trouble seeing any reason for the passive aggressive and insulting behavior he exhibited. Even if he lost all attraction to her after she lost the weight he could have been mature about it so they could both move on with their lives. Sure, she made the decision to lose the weight (and become healthier) which was going to eliminate her fulfillment of his ideal, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't care about her as a person and be able to respect her decision (and her) while they work out how best to separate.
I would feel the same way if someone gained 200 lbs in a relationship (and had zero interest in losing it). Their partner may not be happy and may ultimately decide to end things but that doesn't mean they have to be disrespectful and cruel in the process.
Maybe I'm too idealistic when it comes to relationships.
This. I'm really not seeing that it was cool of Zsalynn's husband to be so verbally abusive (disgusting, actually...I mean I'm not using the word "abusive" lightly here) to both Zsalynn and their daughter, just because she realized he was initially attracted to her because of her weight.
Just not getting that connection, unless I'm misunderstanding.
Your second paragraph demonstrates this very well - would it be okay to be abusive to a spouse who had gained weight? I'm thinking no. Correct?
I doubt that just because they met at a fat acceptance seminar, Zsalynn should have expected and should accept that not only would the man ultimately be downright cruel to her, but also to their future child.
No one is defending her worthless pos husband, or saying that she should accept abuse.
And she made an ad of herself in a 2-piece thong lingerie (she looked 500 lbs to me) on a website and he responded. Pretty sure it was a site for people like him, since that was part of the story of the culture she was involved with, not 100% certain tho. For some reason I don't think she was advertising herself on Match.
Yes, it would have been super if he turned out to be a good decent guy who loved her for the right reasons, but he wasn't and he didn't. My argument wasn't that she didn't deserve better, or that he had every right to treat her that way, it's that she spent the majority of her adult life rejecting the idea that her weight was a problem, and got involved in a culture that positively reinforced being in denial, and married a man who likewise positively reinforced her being in denial because he was a fat fetishist. Her entire world was built on rejecting that her weight is a problem. The situation with her husband may not have been ideal, but it was an entirely predictable outcome, and losing weight is what gave her the strength to get out of it.
Hmmmm.
I'm wondering what non-fat "fetishist" sites don't involve the men scrolling through pictures and making sure the woman they choose to contact will give them a boner (and you can be darned sure there are tons of bikini pics on dating sites - of thin women) consistently before contacting them since, you know, sexual attraction is part of a romantic relationship. Do you know of any? Go on lots of dating sites where no pictures are allowed, because unless they're all after one another for their hearts and brains first, they should expect to be abused? They know what they're getting into, etc.?
When you really, really, really love somebody's heart and brain but aren't sexually attracted to him/her, there's a simple word for that. That word is "friends." (Or possibly "mother," "father" or "sibling.")
The take-home here being "pretty much every instance of a man approaching a woman for a romantic partnership necessarily requires he be sexually attracted to her, but while thin people shouldn't expect a negative result due to that simple, biological fact, fat people should expect it, because it's a 'culture' with a 'predictable' outcome. This should be the obvious expectation of any fat person who dares to want a relationship, so the blame is on her."
I disagree. However, I don't know about the "culture" of fat "fetishists" so I am going to take your word for this.
Now before you say "but these are specifically fat fetishist sites!," I think fat people do know the playing field is smaller. They must. Therefore the people they seek must necessarily enjoy or at least not mind the weight when it comes to a romantic relationship; ergo, sites specifically for heavier people, because on regular dating sites, they will definitely be passed by. But I'm not sure that has to fall under "fetishist" in every case nor do I think the person can expect abuse and "know what she is getting into" and that the relationship is doomed. There are sites specifically for black people; I doubt you could classify all visitors as fetishists and state "well, then, any black woman on the site knows what she's getting into, with a predictable outcome." Same with Christian sites...sites for people over 50...dating sites for any specific category of individuals.
Fat fetishists, or "feeders" prefer for their women to be fat and are turned on by their partner getting fatter. I don't condone these men being abusive, but if they are meeting their wives on fat fetishist websites, that in itself is saying "i don't want you to lose weight." It's not about "not minding" that someone is fat, it's about preferring an obese mate.
Look at Betty-jo and her husband, he didn't want her to lose weight because part of his fetish is knowing his partner is immobile and needs him to care for her.
Feeders and fat fetishists are not the same although they might overlap.
I still stand by my previous post - it's irrelevant if they met on a fetish website or even formally agreed that she would stay as heavy as possible. It still doesn't excuse the abusive behavior of her husband.
People may change and sometimes you may not be happy with it but you should still express dissatisfaction and withdraw from the relationship in a mature and respectful manner.
What some of you are saying to mitigate her husband's reaction ("what did she expect?", "she knew what she was getting into") is victim blaming.0 -
^^ I agree @dearestwinter My husband and I love each other. I love him the way he is but would love him the same if he gained weight (he's very thin). And he would the same. It's heartbreaking to see someone try to better their lives to have someone they cherish to walk away from them.0
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If you want people to believe she's some faultless saint whose hands were tied and was an utter victim of her circumstances, good luck with that.
Her husband waved a burger in her face and refused to get her a salad. He didn't gang rape her. Get a grip.-6 -
And no, I am not defending her husband, it's already been conceded by all that he's a jerk and that she didn't deserve his torment.0
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DearestWinter wrote: »levitateme wrote: »Lourdesong wrote: »DearestWinter wrote: »Zsalynn's husband was disgusting. I just have trouble seeing any reason for the passive aggressive and insulting behavior he exhibited. Even if he lost all attraction to her after she lost the weight he could have been mature about it so they could both move on with their lives. Sure, she made the decision to lose the weight (and become healthier) which was going to eliminate her fulfillment of his ideal, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't care about her as a person and be able to respect her decision (and her) while they work out how best to separate.
I would feel the same way if someone gained 200 lbs in a relationship (and had zero interest in losing it). Their partner may not be happy and may ultimately decide to end things but that doesn't mean they have to be disrespectful and cruel in the process.
Maybe I'm too idealistic when it comes to relationships.
This. I'm really not seeing that it was cool of Zsalynn's husband to be so verbally abusive (disgusting, actually...I mean I'm not using the word "abusive" lightly here) to both Zsalynn and their daughter, just because she realized he was initially attracted to her because of her weight.
Just not getting that connection, unless I'm misunderstanding.
Your second paragraph demonstrates this very well - would it be okay to be abusive to a spouse who had gained weight? I'm thinking no. Correct?
I doubt that just because they met at a fat acceptance seminar, Zsalynn should have expected and should accept that not only would the man ultimately be downright cruel to her, but also to their future child.
No one is defending her worthless pos husband, or saying that she should accept abuse.
And she made an ad of herself in a 2-piece thong lingerie (she looked 500 lbs to me) on a website and he responded. Pretty sure it was a site for people like him, since that was part of the story of the culture she was involved with, not 100% certain tho. For some reason I don't think she was advertising herself on Match.
Yes, it would have been super if he turned out to be a good decent guy who loved her for the right reasons, but he wasn't and he didn't. My argument wasn't that she didn't deserve better, or that he had every right to treat her that way, it's that she spent the majority of her adult life rejecting the idea that her weight was a problem, and got involved in a culture that positively reinforced being in denial, and married a man who likewise positively reinforced her being in denial because he was a fat fetishist. Her entire world was built on rejecting that her weight is a problem. The situation with her husband may not have been ideal, but it was an entirely predictable outcome, and losing weight is what gave her the strength to get out of it.
Hmmmm.
I'm wondering what non-fat "fetishist" sites don't involve the men scrolling through pictures and making sure the woman they choose to contact will give them a boner (and you can be darned sure there are tons of bikini pics on dating sites - of thin women) consistently before contacting them since, you know, sexual attraction is part of a romantic relationship. Do you know of any? Go on lots of dating sites where no pictures are allowed, because unless they're all after one another for their hearts and brains first, they should expect to be abused? They know what they're getting into, etc.?
When you really, really, really love somebody's heart and brain but aren't sexually attracted to him/her, there's a simple word for that. That word is "friends." (Or possibly "mother," "father" or "sibling.")
The take-home here being "pretty much every instance of a man approaching a woman for a romantic partnership necessarily requires he be sexually attracted to her, but while thin people shouldn't expect a negative result due to that simple, biological fact, fat people should expect it, because it's a 'culture' with a 'predictable' outcome. This should be the obvious expectation of any fat person who dares to want a relationship, so the blame is on her."
I disagree. However, I don't know about the "culture" of fat "fetishists" so I am going to take your word for this.
Now before you say "but these are specifically fat fetishist sites!," I think fat people do know the playing field is smaller. They must. Therefore the people they seek must necessarily enjoy or at least not mind the weight when it comes to a romantic relationship; ergo, sites specifically for heavier people, because on regular dating sites, they will definitely be passed by. But I'm not sure that has to fall under "fetishist" in every case nor do I think the person can expect abuse and "know what she is getting into" and that the relationship is doomed. There are sites specifically for black people; I doubt you could classify all visitors as fetishists and state "well, then, any black woman on the site knows what she's getting into, with a predictable outcome." Same with Christian sites...sites for people over 50...dating sites for any specific category of individuals.
Fat fetishists, or "feeders" prefer for their women to be fat and are turned on by their partner getting fatter. I don't condone these men being abusive, but if they are meeting their wives on fat fetishist websites, that in itself is saying "i don't want you to lose weight." It's not about "not minding" that someone is fat, it's about preferring an obese mate.
Look at Betty-jo and her husband, he didn't want her to lose weight because part of his fetish is knowing his partner is immobile and needs him to care for her.
Feeders and fat fetishists are not the same although they might overlap.
I still stand by my previous post - it's irrelevant if they met on a fetish website or even formally agreed that she would stay as heavy as possible. It still doesn't excuse the abusive behavior of her husband.
People may change and sometimes you may not be happy with it but you should still express dissatisfaction and withdraw from the relationship in a mature and respectful manner.
What some of you are saying to mitigate her husband's reaction ("what did she expect?", "she knew what she was getting into") is victim blaming.
Agreed. HE misrepresented himself or he changed after they met.
Would that we could all see right through people the second we meet them, and know how our futures would turn out...0 -
levitateme wrote: »Lourdesong wrote: »DearestWinter wrote: »Zsalynn's husband was disgusting. I just have trouble seeing any reason for the passive aggressive and insulting behavior he exhibited. Even if he lost all attraction to her after she lost the weight he could have been mature about it so they could both move on with their lives. Sure, she made the decision to lose the weight (and become healthier) which was going to eliminate her fulfillment of his ideal, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't care about her as a person and be able to respect her decision (and her) while they work out how best to separate.
I would feel the same way if someone gained 200 lbs in a relationship (and had zero interest in losing it). Their partner may not be happy and may ultimately decide to end things but that doesn't mean they have to be disrespectful and cruel in the process.
Maybe I'm too idealistic when it comes to relationships.
This. I'm really not seeing that it was cool of Zsalynn's husband to be so verbally abusive (disgusting, actually...I mean I'm not using the word "abusive" lightly here) to both Zsalynn and their daughter, just because she realized he was initially attracted to her because of her weight.
Just not getting that connection, unless I'm misunderstanding.
Your second paragraph demonstrates this very well - would it be okay to be abusive to a spouse who had gained weight? I'm thinking no. Correct?
I doubt that just because they met at a fat acceptance seminar, Zsalynn should have expected and should accept that not only would the man ultimately be downright cruel to her, but also to their future child.
No one is defending her worthless pos husband, or saying that she should accept abuse.
And she made an ad of herself in a 2-piece thong lingerie (she looked 500 lbs to me) on a website and he responded. Pretty sure it was a site for people like him, since that was part of the story of the culture she was involved with, not 100% certain tho. For some reason I don't think she was advertising herself on Match.
Yes, it would have been super if he turned out to be a good decent guy who loved her for the right reasons, but he wasn't and he didn't. My argument wasn't that she didn't deserve better, or that he had every right to treat her that way, it's that she spent the majority of her adult life rejecting the idea that her weight was a problem, and got involved in a culture that positively reinforced being in denial, and married a man who likewise positively reinforced her being in denial because he was a fat fetishist. Her entire world was built on rejecting that her weight is a problem. The situation with her husband may not have been ideal, but it was an entirely predictable outcome, and losing weight is what gave her the strength to get out of it.
Hmmmm.
I'm wondering what non-fat "fetishist" sites don't involve the men scrolling through pictures and making sure the woman they choose to contact will give them a boner (and you can be darned sure there are tons of bikini pics on dating sites - of thin women) consistently before contacting them since, you know, sexual attraction is part of a romantic relationship. Do you know of any? Go on lots of dating sites where no pictures are allowed, because unless they're all after one another for their hearts and brains first, they should expect to be abused? They know what they're getting into, etc.?
When you really, really, really love somebody's heart and brain but aren't sexually attracted to him/her, there's a simple word for that. That word is "friends." (Or possibly "mother," "father" or "sibling.")
The take-home here being "pretty much every instance of a man approaching a woman for a romantic partnership necessarily requires he be sexually attracted to her, but while thin people shouldn't expect a negative result due to that simple, biological fact, fat people should expect it, because it's a 'culture' with a 'predictable' outcome. This should be the obvious expectation of any fat person who dares to want a relationship, so the blame is on her."
I disagree. However, I don't know about the "culture" of fat "fetishists" so I am going to take your word for this.
Now before you say "but these are specifically fat fetishist sites!," I think fat people do know the playing field is smaller. They must. Therefore the people they seek must necessarily enjoy or at least not mind the weight when it comes to a romantic relationship; ergo, sites specifically for heavier people, because on regular dating sites, they will definitely be passed by. But I'm not sure that has to fall under "fetishist" in every case nor do I think the person can expect abuse and "know what she is getting into" and that the relationship is doomed. There are sites specifically for black people; I doubt you could classify all visitors as fetishists and state "well, then, any black woman on the site knows what she's getting into, with a predictable outcome." Same with Christian sites...sites for people over 50...dating sites for any specific category of individuals.
Fat fetishists, or "feeders" prefer for their women to be fat and are turned on by their partner getting fatter. I don't condone these men being abusive, but if they are meeting their wives on fat fetishist websites, that in itself is saying "i don't want you to lose weight." It's not about "not minding" that someone is fat, it's about preferring an obese mate.
Look at Betty-jo and her husband, he didn't want her to lose weight because part of his fetish is knowing his partner is immobile and needs him to care for her.
Well, AFAIK, the husband didn't meet her via a fat fetishist site; he met her at a fat acceptance gathering (somebody correct me as I could be wrong about this) and I don't believe the FA movement is exclusively about feederism...?
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Lourdesong wrote: »The blame is on her for surrounding herself with people who reinforce the lie that her weight isn't problematic, which was part of my argument that the weight is the problem not a symptom of some other problem. You, LAWoman, seem very lost in this conversation. I told you how they met because you, in the post I quoted, said they met at a fat acceptance seminar, and they did not.
Oh, I see. Where did they meet?Lourdesong wrote: »Please stay on topic.
Please don't do the mods' job.
I'm sure they're capable. Glad we can be polite about this, anyway!
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Lourdesong wrote: »If you want people to believe she's some faultless saint whose hands were tied and was an utter victim of her circumstances, good luck with that.
Her husband waved a burger in her face and refused to get her a salad. He didn't gang rape her. Get a grip.
Hmmm.
Who said that?
ANY of that?
Re: "Get a grip"...why so defensive? Just curious. How about just a normal, polite adult conversation?Lourdesong wrote: »As far as him wanting a happy 300 lb woman, if she was 300 when they met (she looked a lot bigger, but I don't recall the number they said she was so I'll take 300 for sake of argument) then he had to have been into feederism or something because she was hundreds of pounds larger than that when he was waving burgers in her face.
Whoa, assumptions much? Not sure where you're getting any of this...? I am much heavier than I was when my husband met me and I can assure you he is not into feederism. There is NO reason to believe that because she continued to get bigger after they married, it must be because he's a feeder...my goodness, that's quite a leap.
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Well, AFAIK, the husband didn't meet her via a fat fetishist site; he met her at a fat acceptance gathering (somebody correct me as I could be wrong about this) and I don't believe the FA movement is exclusively about feederism...?
She'd been active on general BBW boards for a while beforehand. I posted something a while back on the second point, but I don't want to get into trouble here.
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Lourdesong wrote: »If you want people to believe she's some faultless saint whose hands were tied and was an utter victim of her circumstances, good luck with that.
Her husband waved a burger in her face and refused to get her a salad. He didn't gang rape her. Get a grip.
Hmmm.
Who said that?
ANY of that?
Re: "Get a grip"...why so defensive? Just curious. How about just a normal, polite adult conversation?Lourdesong wrote: »As far as him wanting a happy 300 lb woman, if she was 300 when they met (she looked a lot bigger, but I don't recall the number they said she was so I'll take 300 for sake of argument) then he had to have been into feederism or something because she was hundreds of pounds larger than that when he was waving burgers in her face.
Whoa, assumptions much? Not sure where you're getting any of this...? I am much heavier than I was when my husband met me and I can assure you he is not into feederism. There is NO reason to believe that because she continued to get bigger after they married, it must be because he's a feeder...my goodness, that's quite a leap.
The accusation of victim-blaming is generally reserved for rape and domestic abuse apologists. It's a dark and uncharitable accusation, not an innocent observation.
As far as leaps, I was speculating, given that he didn't want her to lose any weight, not even the 300 or so estimated pounds she gained since they were married. Forgive me, but could the same be said of your husband?
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deathninja82 wrote: »Well, AFAIK, the husband didn't meet her via a fat fetishist site; he met her at a fat acceptance gathering (somebody correct me as I could be wrong about this) and I don't believe the FA movement is exclusively about feederism...?
She'd been active on general BBW boards for a while beforehand. I posted something a while back on the second point, but I don't want to get into trouble here.
Oh, I see, thank you. So they met via a BBW board? Just as non-overweight people meet through meetup boards, both general and specific (race-specific, body-specific, age-specific, religious-specific, interests-specific and so on) boards? (BBW boards being important to overweight women who may indeed have trouble finding men who will love both their minds and their bodies, but who want to have love, homes, possibly families and so on.)
Okay, so she had been on BBW boards. Which would have seemed like a good place for a very overweight woman looking for love to be - not looking for a feeder (isn't that a pretty small subset of the population?) or a fetishist, per se, but someone who was going to love her despite her size? The way, for instance, a Christian person might go on Christian Mingle-type boards since that was their specific interest, that sort of thing? Without those people being communion wafer fetishists or something.
I do also know she had a "site" or channel of some kind...again, something some thin women do too, but we don't point our fingers saying they later deserve what they can get if they wind up abused. Why? Because they had their own reasons - perhaps money, perhaps a desperate need for attention. That's the point - there could be ANY reason and who's to judge or claim they somehow psychically know? They wanted someone to love them, that's about all we know. Which isn't unusual. Some may have very low self-esteem. Which isn't unusual either.
None of it really points to "she knew what she was getting into," IMO. She may have thought she found a man who loved her AND her body, something many people have trouble finding - and not just overweight people, either. I really, really doubt she should have anticipated abuse and that she brought it all on herself/it's her comeuppance for having accepted herself as very overweight, which has been both intimated and outright stated here.
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I was 315lbs and in bad shape when I watched that show. I literally said to myself, "Omg..Im over halfway there!" and I cried and cried. Then and there I decided to get my act together and my life in order. That was last March. Ive worked my tushy off to drop 111lbs through diet and exercise. I have 40ish more to go. I have little patience for those like Penny.0
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Okay, so she had been on BBW boards. Which would have been a good place for a very overweight woman looking for love to be - not looking for a feeder (isn't that a pretty small subset of the population) or a fetishist, per se, but someone who was going to love her despite her size? The way, for instance, a Christian person might go on Christian Mingle-type boards since that was their specific interest, that sort of thing?
Kind of, a lot of them involve posting images as a confidence thing, general chat, dating, some are a bit more, erm, direct... You'll find feeders and gainers on all of them, the latter's quite a common angle with the models/would-be models, but there it's completely different as it's the woman in control of her own body. I wouldn't say feederism is 'rare', but it's definately not the norm, and there's varying degrees (foodplay being fairly common, but even so about as common as a cheat day).I do also know she had a "site" or channel of some kind...again, something some thin women do too, but we don't point our fingers saying they later deserve what they can get if they wind up abused. Why? Because they had their own reasons - perhaps money, perhaps a desperate need for attention. That's the point - there could be ANY reason and who's to judge or claim they somehow psychically know? They wanted someone to love them, that's about all we know. Which isn't unusual. Some may have very low self-esteem. Which isn't unusual either.
The BBW/SSBBW scene can actually be quite lucrative, as well as being a confidence thing, the difference between camming and a relationship is that there's little outside pressure to gain/change in the former.None of it really points to "she knew what she was getting into," IMO. She may have thought she found a man who loved her AND her body, something many people have trouble finding - and not just overweight people, either. I really, really doubt she should have anticipated abuse and that she brought it all on herself/it's her comeuppance for having accepted herself as very overweight, which has been both intimated and outright stated here.
Not seen the show, but I'm guessing she neglected to mention she was actively gaining herself for a while beforehand? IIRC she was comfortable around 350-400, but then I presume he took over. And there it's toxic because with the increased weight is increased dependency, where it's practically a prisoner relationship. While sometimes that goes down well with both parties, when it's non-consensual it's totally unacceptable, as in this case.
While I can understand that people unfamiliar with the (Culture?, Scene?, Lifestyle?) may find it hard to comprehend her choices, it boils down to her originally making a choice, with HER body and HER life, then having that taken away from her. No-one deserves that, let alone being told she "brought it on herself" (no-one dares try that argument re: short skirts & sex attacks, so why anywhere else?), but I'm seeing that line a lot here, sadly.0 -
Yeah, it's uncanny how much he resembles me. He must get that all the time.
I agree, and yet there was also something positive about that group in affirming themselves as valuable and appealing even though they were at the opposite extreme of the culturally defined image of attractiveness.Lourdesong wrote: »... My argument wasn't that she didn't deserve better, or that he had every right to treat her that way, it's that she spent the majority of her adult life rejecting the idea that her weight was a problem, and got involved in a culture that positively reinforced being in denial, and married a man who likewise positively reinforced her being in denial because he was a fat fetishist. Her entire world was built on rejecting that her weight is a problem. The situation with her husband may not have been ideal, but it was an entirely predictable outcome, and losing weight is what gave her the strength to get out of it.
I just wanted to say I love your profile pic Sean Connery is THE man.
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deathninja82 wrote: »
Not seen the show, but I'm guessing she neglected to mention she was actively gaining herself for a while beforehand? IIRC she was comfortable around 350-400, but then I presume he took over. And there it's toxic because with the increased weight is increased dependency, where it's practically a prisoner relationship. While sometimes that goes down well with both parties, when it's non-consensual it's totally unacceptable, as in this case.
Wow, no, I definitely don't remember hearing this on the show, unless I missed it. Where did you hear this?
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Thank you @LAwoman72 for a good analogy.
Say someone met her husband on a Christian dating site, and maybe they were both Baptists but just regular, and then he decided after they married that they were going full on Evangelical Fundie and she had no say in the matter. Would that be her fault? Should she have expected it?
Zsalynn WAS in fact abused, we all saw it on camera. So to say she got herself into it and should have known better is straight up blaming her for it.0 -
levitateme wrote: »Lourdesong wrote: »DearestWinter wrote: »Zsalynn's husband was disgusting. I just have trouble seeing any reason for the passive aggressive and insulting behavior he exhibited. Even if he lost all attraction to her after she lost the weight he could have been mature about it so they could both move on with their lives. Sure, she made the decision to lose the weight (and become healthier) which was going to eliminate her fulfillment of his ideal, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't care about her as a person and be able to respect her decision (and her) while they work out how best to separate.
I would feel the same way if someone gained 200 lbs in a relationship (and had zero interest in losing it). Their partner may not be happy and may ultimately decide to end things but that doesn't mean they have to be disrespectful and cruel in the process.
Maybe I'm too idealistic when it comes to relationships.
This. I'm really not seeing that it was cool of Zsalynn's husband to be so verbally abusive (disgusting, actually...I mean I'm not using the word "abusive" lightly here) to both Zsalynn and their daughter, just because she realized he was initially attracted to her because of her weight.
Just not getting that connection, unless I'm misunderstanding.
Your second paragraph demonstrates this very well - would it be okay to be abusive to a spouse who had gained weight? I'm thinking no. Correct?
I doubt that just because they met at a fat acceptance seminar, Zsalynn should have expected and should accept that not only would the man ultimately be downright cruel to her, but also to their future child.
No one is defending her worthless pos husband, or saying that she should accept abuse.
And she made an ad of herself in a 2-piece thong lingerie (she looked 500 lbs to me) on a website and he responded. Pretty sure it was a site for people like him, since that was part of the story of the culture she was involved with, not 100% certain tho. For some reason I don't think she was advertising herself on Match.
Yes, it would have been super if he turned out to be a good decent guy who loved her for the right reasons, but he wasn't and he didn't. My argument wasn't that she didn't deserve better, or that he had every right to treat her that way, it's that she spent the majority of her adult life rejecting the idea that her weight was a problem, and got involved in a culture that positively reinforced being in denial, and married a man who likewise positively reinforced her being in denial because he was a fat fetishist. Her entire world was built on rejecting that her weight is a problem. The situation with her husband may not have been ideal, but it was an entirely predictable outcome, and losing weight is what gave her the strength to get out of it.
Hmmmm.
I'm wondering what non-fat "fetishist" sites don't involve the men scrolling through pictures and making sure the woman they choose to contact will give them a boner (and you can be darned sure there are tons of bikini pics on dating sites - of thin women) consistently before contacting them since, you know, sexual attraction is part of a romantic relationship. Do you know of any? Go on lots of dating sites where no pictures are allowed, because unless they're all after one another for their hearts and brains first, they should expect to be abused? They know what they're getting into, etc.?
When you really, really, really love somebody's heart and brain but aren't sexually attracted to him/her, there's a simple word for that. That word is "friends." (Or possibly "mother," "father" or "sibling.")
The take-home here being "pretty much every instance of a man approaching a woman for a romantic partnership necessarily requires he be sexually attracted to her, but while thin people shouldn't expect a negative result due to that simple, biological fact, fat people should expect it, because it's a 'culture' with a 'predictable' outcome. This should be the obvious expectation of any fat person who dares to want a relationship, so the blame is on her."
I disagree. However, I don't know about the "culture" of fat "fetishists" so I am going to take your word for this.
Now before you say "but these are specifically fat fetishist sites!," I think fat people do know the playing field is smaller. They must. Therefore the people they seek must necessarily enjoy or at least not mind the weight when it comes to a romantic relationship; ergo, sites specifically for heavier people, because on regular dating sites, they will definitely be passed by. But I'm not sure that has to fall under "fetishist" in every case nor do I think the person can expect abuse and "know what she is getting into" and that the relationship is doomed. There are sites specifically for black people; I doubt you could classify all visitors as fetishists and state "well, then, any black woman on the site knows what she's getting into, with a predictable outcome." Same with Christian sites...sites for people over 50...dating sites for any specific category of individuals.
Fat fetishists, or "feeders" prefer for their women to be fat and are turned on by their partner getting fatter. I don't condone these men being abusive, but if they are meeting their wives on fat fetishist websites, that in itself is saying "i don't want you to lose weight." It's not about "not minding" that someone is fat, it's about preferring an obese mate.
Look at Betty-jo and her husband, he didn't want her to lose weight because part of his fetish is knowing his partner is immobile and needs him to care for her.
Well, AFAIK, the husband didn't meet her via a fat fetishist site; he met her at a fat acceptance gathering (somebody correct me as I could be wrong about this) and I don't believe the FA movement is exclusively about feederism...?
I see. I thought someone in the thread mentioned that she had previously posed online on a fetish website. I know Pauline used to do that.
The fat acceptance movement isn't the same as fat fetishism. And fat fetishists are not necessarily feeders, but most of the dudes on this show seem to be specifically into super-morbidly obese women. Zsallyn (not sure of correct spelling) - her husband made a comment that he "married a happy fat girl" and expected that she'd stay such, not that she'd eventually want to lose the weight. I don't really see having a specific sexual preference as "abuse" like a lot of people seem to. I don't remember the whole episode, but I recall that he was a jerk and not supportive of her diet but it was because he wanted a fat wife because that's his preference.
Physical attraction is important in a relationship and if one partner goes through a tremendous change either by losing OR gaining a lot of weight, it would be understandable if the other partner is no longer attracted to them. If you really love someone, you may be able to overlook it, but obviously that wasn't the case for Z's husband. All of these women would be better off if they dumped all the enablers in their lives anyway so good thing he's gone.0
This discussion has been closed.
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