THE BIG STARVATION MODE MYTH.
Replies
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Well.. I was maintaing on 4000-4500 calories a day, and I sure as heck wasn't 400-450lbs...Starvation is a myth and everyone is different. The human body needs approximately 10 to 11 calories per pound of weight to maintain that weight. Example: A 150 pound female needs 1650 calories a day to MAINTAIN her weight (150 lbs. X 11 calories). To lose 1 pound, the female would need a 3,500 calorie deficit. So . . .
150 lbs, times 11 calories (1650) times 7 days = 11,550 calories a week to maintain.
11,550 calories minus 3,500 (calories in one pound) = 8,050 calories a week to lose one pound.
8,050 calories divided by 7 days a week = 1,150 calories a day to lose one pound a week.
This formula works for anyone, just substitute your weight and recalculate.0 -
Starvation mode is real, but not to fat people.
I think this is somewhat correct, though people will argue about whether or not that is the right term. People are all the time applying the MN study and acting like what happened to the guys with 5% BF after months at 50% or less of TDEE is happening to people who are clinically obese people who try eating 1200 calories for a few days. It isn't.
Not just the Mn study. Almost everyone that has cut in the ab zone has experienced it to some degree. Read about bodybuilders pre-contest and the effects of dieting while that lean. Heck watch the show Survivor, they are the two groups that experience "stavation mode" strongly while not being in poverty.
But just about everyone that has a 6 pack at least got to the point where food ceased to be filling on the way to that 6 pack unless they followed refeed advice to the letter and were overly conservative with refeed frequency.0 -
Let's try to clear something up. Starvation mode is when your body attempts to keep and/or store fat because it is not receiving the amount of calories or nutrients it needs. That does not mean you will not lose weight because weight doesn't just come from fat, but from muscle and water retention. If you are working out long term at high intensities, 1200 calories will not be enough to maintain the muscle and as a result, you will lose muscle and weight. This will not take place right away, but over time. You do not necessarily gain weight in starvation mode, but may gain body fat. 1200 and 1500 is the lowest recommended intake for women and men respectively, but remember, if you're looking to get fit, get strong and be healthy in the long run, it will not suffice.
When it says to 'eat more' it doesn't mean just eat more calories, but eat more healthy food. Eat more protein, more fruits & vegetables especially. I've been up and down several times and it took me until now to finally 'get' the deal with food and nutrition. I eat close to 2000 calories at a 40/40/20 ration of Carbs/Protein/Fat. I'm doing P90X - Classic. This is the first time I've taken what I eat straight out of the nutrition guide and in 30 days, I was down 16 lbs. The weight loss is great and I've NEVER lost that amount, that quickly, but that's not what you should aim for long term, but rather look at body fat percentage! That's the true indicator of your health and fitness level. In those same 30 days, I was down about 4.5% body fat and now, after 6 weeks, I'm down 6% - 4 inches off my waist!
To lose weight you must create a calorie deficit, yes, but you must also get enough calories to keep your body functioning at a high level in order to perform it's tasks. You must find that balance of calories and nutrient ratios that fit your activity level. This is also key to losing FAT while maintaining the muscle you have. If you do not, you WILL lose lean muscle. Remember that muscle burns fat! Initially, 1200-1500 may work well, but after some time has past, you will need more calories of HEALTHY foods to maintain high performance. Food is FUEL for your body and that's the way you have to see it in order to understand why it's so important to eat right. Performance athletes eat ridiculous amounts of calories daily during training: Michael Phelps 10,000 to 12,000 a day! There's a extreme example, but a point well made. Consider actors who prepare for roles where they must look the part: Henry Cavill (new Superman movie [Man of Steel]) 3500 to 5000 calories a day depending on what the goal was. My point is, if you FUEL your body with the best foods, you will not only perform better, but look and feel better because you are getting enough of all the vitamins and nutrients you need. You will not get that at 1200 calories a day and that's a fact. I'm not saying you need to eat like the examples I gave you, but understand that it's about QUALITY, then quantity and for most people, it's over 1500 calories and something closer to 1800 to 2000 long term.
"Starvation Mode" is not a 'myth,' but rather it's a misunderstood and often misinterpreted term. I hope this helps.
I definitely agree with all of this. "Starvation mode" is a loose term I suppose, and seems to be taken too literally as far as what it truly means.0 -
remember that leptin is still very misunderstood, they are trying to understand the full function of it. take it with a grain of salt but there is more evidence about refeeds being very effective.
Preaching to the choir on that. Well done refeeds are extremely effective at keeping the leptin-ghrelin system at bay. They are really, really needed so that cutting while lean for more than a couple weeks isn't absolute torture and a battle of willpower. But even a solid refeeding plan can be overwhelmed, necessitating diet breaks.0 -
remember that leptin is still very misunderstood, they are trying to understand the full function of it. take it with a grain of salt but there is more evidence about refeeds being very effective.
Preaching to the choir on that. Well done refeeds are extremely effective at keeping the leptin-ghrelin system at bay. They are really, really needed so that cutting while lean for more than a couple weeks isn't absolute torture and a battle of willpower. But even a solid refeeding plan can be overwhelmed, necessitating diet breaks.
its weird about how that works.
it doesn't make any ****ing sense. I cant wait until they can explain it in scientific terms, well with hard evidence0 -
This sends the body into a starving like mode because the cortisol level becomes elevated telling the body to hold onto the fat it all ready has stored (even if an overabundance already exisits), and to send the food you do eat directly to fat stores in this perceived time of stress (which the body sees as a famine like state)
This is so far removed from factual science it isn't even funny. Oh wait; yes it is... :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
I am sorry I should have said if Cortisol level becomes elevated for an exteneded period of time (as does happen in modern life stressers)
http://www.adrenal-failure.com/what-is-cortisol.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortisol
http://www.womentowomen.com/adrenalhealth/effectsofhighcortisollevels.aspx
http://pituitary.mgh.harvard.edu/cushings.htm
and many many more very valid studies! Keep in mind as with anything there is always other explanations, and counter arguments to be had. I know everyone is different. This is how I see it, and it works for me. I am only here to provide, an idea for anyone one to modify to fit what they need out of life to maintain health. My opinions, and interpretation of studies read, can and will be different from others who have read similar studies. I compare it to the constitution.... take away from it the intended knowledge, and use it for your benefit. For me this is valid I have a high stress life. Keep in mind I have read much more on complete body functions. i am just presenting you with knowledge on cortisol. Keep in mind the beginning thread is on the Starvation Myth, and I am giving an idea of where people are crossing Starving, and "starvation mode" which I have said I think is not a very good way of putting what happens in the body if you eat a low calorie, and/or nutrient deficient diet for an extended period of time.
so is cortisol the kitchen where everything is stored?
Cortisol is one reason you store things in the closet (fat)
oh, so it is kind of like a meat freezer?0 -
I know this feel all to well.
At first you will get constant hunger. Getting strong and stronger to the point where food ceases to be filling, even at the end of a huge meal, you're still hungry. Then snacking then loses its appeal, your interest shifts to really filling things only. You start dreaming and daydreaming about eating really filling things, fantasizing about thanksgiving and whatnot.0 -
lolThis sends the body into a starving like mode because the cortisol level becomes elevated telling the body to hold onto the fat it all ready has stored (even if an overabundance already exisits), and to send the food you do eat directly to fat stores in this perceived time of stress (which the body sees as a famine like state)
This is so far removed from factual science it isn't even funny. Oh wait; yes it is... :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
I am sorry I should have said if Cortisol level becomes elevated for an exteneded period of time (as does happen in modern life stressers)
http://www.adrenal-failure.com/what-is-cortisol.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortisol
http://www.womentowomen.com/adrenalhealth/effectsofhighcortisollevels.aspx
http://pituitary.mgh.harvard.edu/cushings.htm
and many many more very valid studies! Keep in mind as with anything there is always other explanations, and counter arguments to be had. I know everyone is different. This is how I see it, and it works for me. I am only here to provide, an idea for anyone one to modify to fit what they need out of life to maintain health. My opinions, and interpretation of studies read, can and will be different from others who have read similar studies. I compare it to the constitution.... take away from it the intended knowledge, and use it for your benefit. For me this is valid I have a high stress life. Keep in mind I have read much more on complete body functions. i am just presenting you with knowledge on cortisol. Keep in mind the beginning thread is on the Starvation Myth, and I am giving an idea of where people are crossing Starving, and "starvation mode" which I have said I think is not a very good way of putting what happens in the body if you eat a low calorie, and/or nutrient deficient diet for an extended period of time.
so is cortisol the kitchen where everything is stored?
Cortisol is one reason you store things in the closet (fat)
oh, so it is kind of like a meat freezer?0 -
**double post**0
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remember that leptin is still very misunderstood, they are trying to understand the full function of it. take it with a grain of salt but there is more evidence about refeeds being very effective.
Preaching to the choir on that. Well done refeeds are extremely effective at keeping the leptin-ghrelin system at bay. They are really, really needed so that cutting while lean for more than a couple weeks isn't absolute torture and a battle of willpower. But even a solid refeeding plan can be overwhelmed, necessitating diet breaks.
its weird about how that works.
it doesn't make any ****ing sense. I cant wait until they can explain it in scientific terms, well with hard evidence
Leptin is secreted by fat, its likely that fat needs to be burning for high concentrations to be released, and it seems that the secretion of it gets stronger and stronger over time and as you get leaner and leaner. Refeeds are a shock quanitiy of carbs that completely knocks your body out of fat burning and into heavy fat storage (hence eating any fat whatsover during a refeed is very bad). Enough to "reset" the quantity of leptin released, so that to the body you just started dieting, you haven't been at it for a long time.0 -
Here is another thing to keep in mind Fat just sits there. You do not burn any energy to have an over abundance of fat. Fat is a storage shelf for the body. Think of it as the closet you jam things in you might need down the road (energy), or things you don't know how to get rid of (toxins). It just sits there closed, and you never look into it until you need something. Lean muscle is used constantly (so it needs energy constantly to maintain). It is like the kitchen in a house full of people, there is always someone cooking in it. The more lean muscle you have the more fuel it needs (the more you have to cook). If you are overweight, and you stop taking in more junk than you really need (to shove in the closet), and start building more lean muscle(cooking in your own kitchen kitchen) your eventually going to need that pan your mom bought you in that storage closet. Guess what that pan, is at the bottom of the closet so you have to clean it out to get to it, and then you find the hiking boots(exercise) you have been looking for to build even more lean muscle(means more energy is needed). So now you have to cook more food in the kitchen, but you don't have anymore pans in the closet, because you have cleaned out the junk. Now you have no choice but to go buy another set, and keep cooking more food, more often to keep up. Nothing is stored, and nothing is wasted. This is how our bodies should be. Hormones are the lubricant to keep the body functions moving, and keep us from becoming content with the closet full of junk we might need down the road, if life changes. It works for me to see it this way, but maybe not for you. I hope this info helps someone else that the only reason I am writing novels here...lol If someone has a better way to put it, or something else to add to the collective wealth of knowledge please enlighten!
So this was a total ramble to try to say how I picture the studies I have read, and how I perceive the body using fat, and energy, and how lean muscle is built. It was really bad...... I am not a writer by any means. Please excuse the poorly written analogy and just understand the bodies exposure to hormone shifts caused by poor diet choices. (i.e. super low calorie diets for extended periods of time, and/ or nutrient lacking foods)0 -
I had my dry reefed yesterday to try to remove the squishy fat and for carb replenishment some of it came off so we will see the acceleration of my loss now.remember that leptin is still very misunderstood, they are trying to understand the full function of it. take it with a grain of salt but there is more evidence about refeeds being very effective.
Preaching to the choir on that. Well done refeeds are extremely effective at keeping the leptin-ghrelin system at bay. They are really, really needed so that cutting while lean for more than a couple weeks isn't absolute torture and a battle of willpower. But even a solid refeeding plan can be overwhelmed, necessitating diet breaks.
its weird about how that works.
it doesn't make any ****ing sense. I cant wait until they can explain it in scientific terms, well with hard evidence
Leptin is secreted by fat, its likely that fat needs to be burning for high concentrations to be released, and it seems that the secretion of it gets stronger and stronger over time. Refeeds are a shock quanitiy of carbs that completely knocks your body out of fat burning and into heavy fat storage (hence eating any fat whatsover during a refeed is very bad). Enough to "reset" the quantity of leptin released, so that to the body you just started dieting, you haven't been at it for a long time.
I know they were talking about people going low fat In general if the person can handle the mental pain and using fish oil to meet EFA0 -
People say don't eat 1200 or even 1500 calories a day. They say eat more, to weigh less, but people you see on youtube eat 1200 and are losing over 80+ pounds. Can you explain that maybe it is better to eat more in the 1800s, but don't tell people that starvation will come up and get them because it's a flat out lie. Especially if your obese. Some guys did a study and that's the huge thing, that's why people think they're in starvation mode. How can you tell someone to eat more when that's what they have been doing all along, hence why they're overweight to begin with. Look at people in different countries starving, they are not going into starvation mode. No I don't think so. You need to look around you. People want you to fail in weight loss, they will make up anything to make sure you don't succeed. Why IDK. But its true weight loss and takes a long freaking time. You need to think of it in long terms, I mean like 3-5 years, it will need to be a lifestyle change. People think they are going into starvation mode because omg i hit a plateau. It happens with everyone. You're never going to get away from that. Sorry guys. JUST BECAUSE YOU HIT A PLATEAU DOES NOT MEAN YOUR IN STARVATION MODE. 1200 isn't starving yourself. What happens when you don't get enough food your body? It has to go into your fat stores, it's science people. End of story. Comments please thanks:) Oh fyi iv lost 40 pounds.
True story... i dont think 1200 calories is starving urself... maybe 800 or 600 calories yeah0 -
'starvation mode' preventing you from losing fat = myth
'starvation mode' subtracting large amounts of muscle mass most people would perfer to have = truth
not to mention necessary vitamins and nutrients for proper nerve system function.
There's more to life than just FAT, people.0 -
A starvation diet does not mean the absence of food. It means cutting the total caloric intake to less than 50% of what the body requires. And, many fear that going into starvation mode will drastically reduce their metabolic rate and cause them to hoard calories and gain weight instead of losing.
This is not borne out by the infamous Minnesota Semi-starvation Study (1950), 36 young, healthy, psychologically normal men while restricting their caloric intake for 6 months. Their calories were restricted in various phases, but the least amount of calories they were allowed was 50% of the "normal" maintenance calories. Notice, this was dubbed a "semi" starvation diet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Starvation_Experiment
Yes, their metabolic rates were significantly lowered -- to something like 40% below baseline. Yet at no point did the men stop losing fat until they hit 5% body fat at the end of the study.
Another starvation study was done in England, at Cambridge University, to determine the different effects starvation had on lean people versus obese people. The entire study is found at:
http://www.unu.edu/unupress/food2/UID07E/uid0 7e11.htm
Lean individuals lost great amounts of fat-free, lean tissue during starvation, but obese individuals lost much more fat tissue. Obese individuals have a mechanism that conserves lean mass and burns fat instead.0 -
I have been on 1200 calories a day since I started in January. I do use the extra calories I earn for exercise, at least most of them.0
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I had my dry reefed yesterday to try to remove the squishy fat and for carb replenishment some of it came off so we will see the acceleration of my loss now.remember that leptin is still very misunderstood, they are trying to understand the full function of it. take it with a grain of salt but there is more evidence about refeeds being very effective.
Preaching to the choir on that. Well done refeeds are extremely effective at keeping the leptin-ghrelin system at bay. They are really, really needed so that cutting while lean for more than a couple weeks isn't absolute torture and a battle of willpower. But even a solid refeeding plan can be overwhelmed, necessitating diet breaks.
its weird about how that works.
it doesn't make any ****ing sense. I cant wait until they can explain it in scientific terms, well with hard evidence
Leptin is secreted by fat, its likely that fat needs to be burning for high concentrations to be released, and it seems that the secretion of it gets stronger and stronger over time. Refeeds are a shock quanitiy of carbs that completely knocks your body out of fat burning and into heavy fat storage (hence eating any fat whatsover during a refeed is very bad). Enough to "reset" the quantity of leptin released, so that to the body you just started dieting, you haven't been at it for a long time.
I know they were talking about people going low fat In general if the person can handle the mental pain and using fish oil to meet EFA
Does dry carb loading help to get rid of squishy fat?
To me it always seems that squishy fat is highly influenced by water levels, when dehydrated squishy fat is even squishier. Isn't the point of a dry carb load to dehydrate you?
I just finished a diet break and am setting out on a fairly aggressive 6 week cut, with weekly refeeds (Fridays, woo hoo tomorrow). Prior to my diet break I was getting the effects of the anti-starvation system strongly, a break was really needed. But before my break I didn't do a good job with refeeds, had to learn the lesson the hard way.0 -
I've tried eating 1800, 1600, 1400, I only lose at 1200-1300. Everyone is different.0
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A starvation diet does not mean the absence of food. It means cutting the total caloric intake to less than 50% of what the body requires. And, many fear that going into starvation mode will drastically reduce their metabolic rate and cause them to hoard calories and gain weight instead of losing.
This is not borne out by the infamous Minnesota Semi-starvation Study (1950), 36 young, healthy, psychologically normal men while restricting their caloric intake for 6 months. Their calories were restricted in various phases, but the least amount of calories they were allowed was 50% of the "normal" maintenance calories. Notice, this was dubbed a "semi" starvation diet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Starvation_Experiment
Yes, their metabolic rates were significantly lowered -- to something like 40% below baseline. Yet at no point did the men stop losing fat until they hit 5% body fat at the end of the study.
Another starvation study was done in England, at Cambridge University, to determine the different effects starvation had on lean people versus obese people. The entire study is found at:
http://www.unu.edu/unupress/food2/UID07E/uid0 7e11.htm
Lean individuals lost great amounts of fat-free, lean tissue during starvation, but obese individuals lost much more fat tissue. Obese individuals have a mechanism that conserves lean mass and burns fat instead.
You mean at one point one guy had a drop of 40%, not that 40% ever became the average for the group.0 -
Thanks for the post. I agree that there needs to be some "starvation" if that's what one wants to call it, for successful weight loss. I have no scientific knowledge on it, but I believe fasting should be apart of normal eating habits. Most religions have some sort of fasting practice. I think your body needs that to get off the "plateau" to move on to a new weight set point for your body. Like I said, I have no scientific evidence of it, but I know in my own situation this has been the case. I have been struggling with no thyroid for 20 plus years now. My medication and weight have been stable for most of those years, but now with age and three children I am finding it difficult to get the last 20 pounds off. Been at a plateau for nearly 6 weeks now. This week I have reduced calories to less than 1400/day. Right now I am also struggling with thyroid medication issues however. Anyway, just sharing my thoughts on the starvation topic. I totally agree with you, that is not to say that I think anyone should ever deprive themselves of food for extended periods of time. That is totally counter-productive.0
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I had my dry reefed yesterday to try to remove the squishy fat and for carb replenishment some of it came off so we will see the acceleration of my loss now.remember that leptin is still very misunderstood, they are trying to understand the full function of it. take it with a grain of salt but there is more evidence about refeeds being very effective.
Preaching to the choir on that. Well done refeeds are extremely effective at keeping the leptin-ghrelin system at bay. They are really, really needed so that cutting while lean for more than a couple weeks isn't absolute torture and a battle of willpower. But even a solid refeeding plan can be overwhelmed, necessitating diet breaks.
its weird about how that works.
it doesn't make any ****ing sense. I cant wait until they can explain it in scientific terms, well with hard evidence
Leptin is secreted by fat, its likely that fat needs to be burning for high concentrations to be released, and it seems that the secretion of it gets stronger and stronger over time. Refeeds are a shock quanitiy of carbs that completely knocks your body out of fat burning and into heavy fat storage (hence eating any fat whatsover during a refeed is very bad). Enough to "reset" the quantity of leptin released, so that to the body you just started dieting, you haven't been at it for a long time.
I know they were talking about people going low fat In general if the person can handle the mental pain and using fish oil to meet EFA
Does dry carb loading help to get rid of squishy fat?
To me it always seems that squishy fat is highly influenced by water levels, when dehydrated squishy fat is even squishier. Isn't the point of a dry carb load to dehydrate you?
I just finished a diet break and am setting out on a fairly aggressive 6 week cut, with weekly refeeds (Fridays, woo hoo tomorrow). Prior to my diet break I was getting the effects of the anti-starvation system strongly, a break was really needed. But before my break I didn't do a good job with refeeds, had to learn the lesson the hard way.
there is no scientific evidence on this. only feedback. some people say dry carb loads, others get wasted off alcohol. I saw someone took a Lasix and was like wtf.
I am starting to think a dry carb load before you sleep would be much better
its supposed to pull water from the fat cells into the muscle.
I would assume maybe doing abs at med-high reps to remove glycogen and then a dry carb load before you sleep may influence it, but that is just a guess.
I am not sure when water molecules actually bind to glycogen but I if it binds in the muscle I could imagine it would pull water from the surrounding tissue if it was in the abs0 -
I'm sure it depends on how much you have to lose and how long you've been dieting. I want to lose 8 lbs, maybe 10. Eating at 1400-1500 calories was getting me nowhere. I was stuck at 138 lbs. For months. Even though I work out seven days a week. Even though some of my workouts are pretty gnarly. Upped to 1700-1800/day and dropped four lbs within a few weeks. Was I starving and that's why I didn't lose weight? No, of course not. Was there some weird hormonal thing going on with my body not letting me lose those last couple pounds? Maybe. Possibly. It doesn't sound that crazy to me.
I'm sure super low calorie diets have their place...for a short period of time. I firmly believe our bodies eventually adjust. So yes, I'd like to be 125 lb with 20% body fat (I'm 134 and 25% BF right now). But I also want to maintain it. Supposedly with my activity level, that's 2050 calories/day. Could I get there by only eating 1200? Maybe, maybe not. I'd rather try at 1700-1800 and be able to maintain at 2000. And hopefully maintain my muscle tone at the same time. :-)
BTW, I have had to lose 30 lbs a couple times in my life. Once after my son was born and the second time after I quit working at a horse ranch and packed on some weight. But I'm the same weight I was in high school and I've pretty much maintained that for the last ten years. I couldn't have done that if I had to eat 1200 calories a day to stay at this weight. I only mention this because lots of people lose lots of weight and then gain it right back. It has to be something you can maintain/manage long term.
But if it works for you, go for it. It wasn't working for me.
Talk about a similar situation. Right now I eat between 1300-1400 calories a day, exercising 5 days a week and my scale will not budge either! I'm stuck at 135 and only have 5 more lbs until I reach my goal weight. I'm not in a hurry to lose those last 5 pounds, but being stuck at it for over a month now is frustrating. I'm going to up my calories again (I was at 1200 to begin with, but needed more) just to experiment. Thanks for sharing your experience!!0 -
Here is another thing to keep in mind Fat just sits there. You do not burn any energy to have an over abundance of fat. Fat is a storage shelf for the body. Think of it as the closet you jam things in you might need down the road (energy), or things you don't know how to get rid of (toxins). It just sits there closed, and you never look into it until you need something. Lean muscle is used constantly (so it needs energy constantly to maintain). It is like the kitchen in a house full of people, there is always someone cooking in it. The more lean muscle you have the more fuel it needs (the more you have to cook). If you are overweight, and you stop taking in more junk than you really need (to shove in the closet), and start building more lean muscle(cooking in your own kitchen kitchen) your eventually going to need that pan your mom bought you in that storage closet. Guess what that pan, is at the bottom of the closet so you have to clean it out to get to it, and then you find the hiking boots(exercise) you have been looking for to build even more lean muscle(means more energy is needed). So now you have to cook more food in the kitchen, but you don't have anymore pans in the closet, because you have cleaned out the junk. Now you have no choice but to go buy another set, and keep cooking more food, more often to keep up. Nothing is stored, and nothing is wasted. This is how our bodies should be. Hormones are the lubricant to keep the body functions moving, and keep us from becoming content with the closet full of junk we might need down the road, if life changes. It works for me to see it this way, but maybe not for you. I hope this info helps someone else that the only reason I am writing novels here...lol If someone has a better way to put it, or something else to add to the collective wealth of knowledge please enlighten!
So this was a total ramble to try to say how I picture the studies I have read, and how I perceive the body using fat, and energy, and how lean muscle is built. It was really bad...... I am not a writer by any means. Please excuse the poorly written analogy and just understand the bodies exposure to hormone shifts caused by poor diet choices. (i.e. super low calorie diets for extended periods of time, and/ or nutrient lacking foods)
so starvation mode is like an old set of pans that do not work any more????0 -
dammit. people on this forum have an honest obsession with Lyle McDonald. I don't get it. He is theoretically right on everything, and has the science to back it up.
why do ppl like him so much? omg
I don't care for him at all. He's right about some things and sooooo wrong about others that it's gotten to the point where he's almost as bad as Martin Leangains. At least Martin replied to me when I challenged him, he might have been drunk though, it was way too easy to poke holes.
Back to the topic.
None of us here have experienced starvation, actual starvation.
Have any of you read the book 'Hunger' by Sharman Apt Russell, or anything close to it? If so message me, please. Sorry, slightly off topic there.
why would he waste his time with people? if he replied to everyone he would go crazy
Aside from being prone to manic depression, he spends most of his time reading research (not actually researching) performance nutrition....the way he comes off..he's not well liked in the industry. His client is reads like a who's who of people who you wouldnt call elite athletes. Goes to show, all brains and not being able to teach is a very sad thing. How many people can actually read his body comp and get 10 major "take-home" points from it? Compare that Aragon's Girth Control, or even the mundane read of Advanced Human Metabolism. I'm reading Supple Leopard now, and that thing is full of applicable yet scientific things you can immediately apply and see results. Martin over at LG crams his worldview down your throat but you have to admire the way he does it, speaking from a fat guy to a rock hard guy that deadlifts 500+ for reps.
What is the merit to arguing hypothetical when you the author cannot even pull it together to pack on some muscle of your own? (I know there's folly in criticizing someone for being knowledgable but not having the physique to back it up, but there's something wrong here. Why are the guys championing science backed physique sports all not very big, or lean?) There's a reason his peers sort of put him out in the annex of "he's probably going overboard". While at the same time rightfully respecting the work he has invested in advancing the theoretical. Eric Helms (an actual researcher by vocation) recently made a video about the misapplication of science, and the recent brand of "myth busting" fitness guys on these forums. Stop myth busting. Bro science works for the novice much better than applied science misapplied. If they advance to a stage where they are willing to absorb knowledge, they will be like me and you...and seek it out. Nothing wrong with letting the natural course of things take shape for themselves.
1st guy - Why would he waste his time with people? If Alan can call me back or email me why can't Lyle?
It was a while back but it still bothers me, I know... I took it personally. It was a good question though, on the breakdown of POMCs into ACTH and β-endorphins.
2nd - I agree with your last few sentences.
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This is what I was trying to say in a very long winded terrible ramble is.... Fat is a storage facility in the body where the liver our bodies filter can store an overabundance of energy to be processed later if needed. Toxins can also be stored in fat for the body to deal with later if the liver is too busy extracting the important nutrients our bodies need. Muscle, is in a constant state of movement, and therefore needs energy to maintain it. If we are obese, and we cut our caloric intake than our bodies do start to use the stored energy in our fat. If we build more lean muscle through exercise we will need more energy to maintain the new larger muscle mass, and than our bodies will use more of that stored energy in our fat causing it to shrinks. Right? However, if we stop feeding ourselves, or cut calories too low than our bodies say, "Wait a minute.....something is wrong we have not had...Fat,... or Carbohydrates,.. or Protein in a few days. Whats wrong? OMG maybe we need to stop supplying the muscle so much energy, and hold a little back in our fat stores. Let the muscle starve a little for the bodies greater good." This is when Cortisol kicks in. Now, understand Cortisol is important in the body. It is part of the "Fight or Flight" response in our body allowing us to prepare for danger or cope with stress. Like needing to run away from something that wants to eat us, or there is not enough food for us to keep functioning at this level of energy use. Cortisol is released by our Adrenal Gland, and if levels become too high from constant stress, or from not eating enough of the right foods.( where our bodies think it might be awhile before we get fat again, or protein again, or carbohydrates again) The increased Cortisol signals the Thyroid which is responsible for telling the cells how quickly to "burn" energy. The Thyroid slows down it's important hormone production by sending a signal to the Hypothalamus to slow production of HGH in the Pituitary gland, so the energy "burn" slows down by the Thyroid which slows down production of important hormones needed to tell the cells "burn" more energy. This then slows down fat storage be burned for energy, and to hold on to it for the future in case it needs it later, and so the body can then lower the Cortisol levels back to normal. Then when the body perceives cortisol levels are lower, and we are no longer in "Fight or Flight", and hey look we are getting the fat, and/ or protein, and/or carbohydrates we needed again. The Hypothalamus says OK lets pick up energy use again to maintain our muscle, and HGH goes back up, Thyroid function goes back up, we "burn" more energy again. Insulin is part of this function too, If we avoid peaks, and valleys by eating consistently enough that our bodies get a gentle roll in our bloodsugar levels instead of spikes, and than dramatic drops our bodies see this as an abundant food supply is at hand we can afford to let go of some of the stored energy to help the energy "burn" in our cells so we can grow lean muscle which uses more energy, and we have plenty of good nutrient rich food to do that. My idea of what "starvation mode" means , nothing like real starvation as in, dying because there is not enough to even maintain normal life function. It is "starving" your cells of a well balanced nutrient rich diet, through poor caloric intake for you own person. This means you need to find the right calorie intake for you! The way I think we do this is by trail and error. You have to have variety (to ensure you are getting all the nutrients needed), consistency (so your hormones such as Cortisol stay balance to optimize energy "burn", and just enough calories (to keep you satisfied, or not hungry {so you don't binge and throw off your bloodsugar level}). Since some of us are heavily muscled, and some are not we require a specifically tailored amount of calories to maintain the balance. The more lean muscle, the more calories you may need to maintain that lean muscle. The less lean muscle you have means, you need less calories in your daily diet. Exercise is important to build the lean muscle needed to burn more energy. The calorie intake is important to maintain hormone balance to let go of fat stored. Both components are important to losing weight, but understand they are different components that have to work together to achieve your ultimate goal of a slim, well muscled, lean you. So still long winded, but way more technical description of how I understand what I have learned than any analogy I could try to spit out. I promise I will never try to story tell again. I will stick to the facts.Here is another thing to keep in mind Fat just sits there. You do not burn any energy to have an over abundance of fat. Fat is a storage shelf for the body. Think of it as the closet you jam things in you might need down the road (energy), or things you don't know how to get rid of (toxins). It just sits there closed, and you never look into it until you need something. Lean muscle is used constantly (so it needs energy constantly to maintain). It is like the kitchen in a house full of people, there is always someone cooking in it. The more lean muscle you have the more fuel it needs (the more you have to cook). If you are overweight, and you stop taking in more junk than you really need (to shove in the closet), and start building more lean muscle(cooking in your own kitchen kitchen) your eventually going to need that pan your mom bought you in that storage closet. Guess what that pan, is at the bottom of the closet so you have to clean it out to get to it, and then you find the hiking boots(exercise) you have been looking for to build even more lean muscle(means more energy is needed). So now you have to cook more food in the kitchen, but you don't have anymore pans in the closet, because you have cleaned out the junk. Now you have no choice but to go buy another set, and keep cooking more food, more often to keep up. Nothing is stored, and nothing is wasted. This is how our bodies should be. Hormones are the lubricant to keep the body functions moving, and keep us from becoming content with the closet full of junk we might need down the road, if life changes. It works for me to see it this way, but maybe not for you. I hope this info helps someone else that the only reason I am writing novels here...lol If someone has a better way to put it, or something else to add to the collective wealth of knowledge please enlighten!
So this was a total ramble to try to say how I picture the studies I have read, and how I perceive the body using fat, and energy, and how lean muscle is built. It was really bad...... I am not a writer by any means. Please excuse the poorly written analogy and just understand the bodies exposure to hormone shifts caused by poor diet choices. (i.e. super low calorie diets for extended periods of time, and/ or nutrient lacking foods)
so starvation mode is like an old set of pans that do not work any more????0 -
STAAAAHP
This is what I was trying to say in a very long winded terrible ramble is.... Fat is a storage facility in the body where the liver our bodies filter can store an overabundance of energy to be processed later if needed. Toxins can also be stored in fat for the body to deal with later if the liver is too busy extracting the important nutrients our bodies need. Muscle, is in a constant state of movement, and therefore needs energy to maintain it. If we are obese, and we cut our caloric intake than our bodies do start to use the stored energy in our fat. If we build more lean muscle through exercise we will need more energy to maintain the new larger muscle mass, and than our bodies will use more of that stored energy in our fat causing it to shrinks. Right? However, if we stop feeding ourselves, or cut calories too low than our bodies say, "Wait a minute.....something is wrong we have not had...Fat,... or Carbohydrates,.. or Protein in a few days. Whats wrong? OMG maybe we need to stop supplying the muscle so much energy, and hold a little back in our fat stores. Let the muscle starve a little for the bodies greater good." This is when Cortisol kicks in. Now, understand Cortisol is important in the body. It is part of the "Fight or Flight" response in our body allowing us to prepare for danger or cope with stress. Like needing to run away from something that wants to eat us, or there is not enough food for us to keep functioning at this level of energy use. Cortisol is released by our Adrenal Gland, and if levels become too high from constant stress, or from not eating enough of the right foods.( where our bodies think it might be awhile before we get fat again, or protein again, or carbohydrates again) The increased Cortisol signals the Thyroid which is responsible for telling the cells how quickly to "burn" energy. The Thyroid slows down it's important hormone production by sending a signal to the Hypothalamus to slow production of HGH in the Pituitary gland, so the energy "burn" slows down by the Thyroid which slows down production of important hormones needed to tell the cells "burn" more energy. This then slows down fat storage be burned for energy, and to hold on to it for the future in case it needs it later, and so the body can then lower the Cortisol levels back to normal. Then when the body perceives cortisol levels are lower, and we are no longer in "Fight or Flight", and hey look we are getting the fat, and/ or protein, and/or carbohydrates we needed again. The Hypothalamus says OK lets pick up energy use again to maintain our muscle, and HGH goes back up, Thyroid function goes back up, we "burn" more energy again. Insulin is part of this function too, If we avoid peaks, and valleys by eating consistently enough that our bodies get a gentle roll in our bloodsugar levels instead of spikes, and than dramatic drops our bodies see this as an abundant food supply is at hand we can afford to let go of some of the stored energy to help the energy "burn" in our cells so we can grow lean muscle which uses more energy, and we have plenty of good nutrient rich food to do that. My idea of what "starvation mode" means , nothing like real starvation as in, dying because there is not enough to even maintain normal life function. It is "starving" your cells of a well balanced nutrient rich diet, through poor caloric intake for you own person. This means you need to find the right calorie intake for you! The way I think we do this is by trail and error. You have to have variety (to ensure you are getting all the nutrients needed), consistency (so your hormones such as Cortisol stay balance to optimize energy "burn", and just enough calories (to keep you satisfied, or not hungry {so you don't binge and throw off your bloodsugar level}). Since some of us are heavily muscled, and some are not we require a specifically tailored amount of calories to maintain the balance. The more lean muscle, the more calories you may need to maintain that lean muscle. The less lean muscle you have means, you need less calories in your daily diet. Exercise is important to build the lean muscle needed to burn more energy. The calorie intake is important to maintain hormone balance to let go of fat stored. Both components are important to losing weight, but understand they are different components that have to work together to achieve your ultimate goal of a slim, well muscled, lean you. So still long winded, but way more technical description of how I understand what I have learned than any analogy I could try to spit out. I promise I will never try to story tell again. I will stick to the facts.Here is another thing to keep in mind Fat just sits there. You do not burn any energy to have an over abundance of fat. Fat is a storage shelf for the body. Think of it as the closet you jam things in you might need down the road (energy), or things you don't know how to get rid of (toxins). It just sits there closed, and you never look into it until you need something. Lean muscle is used constantly (so it needs energy constantly to maintain). It is like the kitchen in a house full of people, there is always someone cooking in it. The more lean muscle you have the more fuel it needs (the more you have to cook). If you are overweight, and you stop taking in more junk than you really need (to shove in the closet), and start building more lean muscle(cooking in your own kitchen kitchen) your eventually going to need that pan your mom bought you in that storage closet. Guess what that pan, is at the bottom of the closet so you have to clean it out to get to it, and then you find the hiking boots(exercise) you have been looking for to build even more lean muscle(means more energy is needed). So now you have to cook more food in the kitchen, but you don't have anymore pans in the closet, because you have cleaned out the junk. Now you have no choice but to go buy another set, and keep cooking more food, more often to keep up. Nothing is stored, and nothing is wasted. This is how our bodies should be. Hormones are the lubricant to keep the body functions moving, and keep us from becoming content with the closet full of junk we might need down the road, if life changes. It works for me to see it this way, but maybe not for you. I hope this info helps someone else that the only reason I am writing novels here...lol If someone has a better way to put it, or something else to add to the collective wealth of knowledge please enlighten!
So this was a total ramble to try to say how I picture the studies I have read, and how I perceive the body using fat, and energy, and how lean muscle is built. It was really bad...... I am not a writer by any means. Please excuse the poorly written analogy and just understand the bodies exposure to hormone shifts caused by poor diet choices. (i.e. super low calorie diets for extended periods of time, and/ or nutrient lacking foods)
so starvation mode is like an old set of pans that do not work any more????0 -
0 -
STAAAAHP
This is what I was trying to say in a very long winded terrible ramble is.... Fat is a storage facility in the body where the liver our bodies filter can store an overabundance of energy to be processed later if needed. Toxins can also be stored in fat for the body to deal with later if the liver is too busy extracting the important nutrients our bodies need. Muscle, is in a constant state of movement, and therefore needs energy to maintain it. If we are obese, and we cut our caloric intake than our bodies do start to use the stored energy in our fat. If we build more lean muscle through exercise we will need more energy to maintain the new larger muscle mass, and than our bodies will use more of that stored energy in our fat causing it to shrinks. Right? However, if we stop feeding ourselves, or cut calories too low than our bodies say, "Wait a minute.....something is wrong we have not had...Fat,... or Carbohydrates,.. or Protein in a few days. Whats wrong? OMG maybe we need to stop supplying the muscle so much energy, and hold a little back in our fat stores. Let the muscle starve a little for the bodies greater good." This is when Cortisol kicks in. Now, understand Cortisol is important in the body. It is part of the "Fight or Flight" response in our body allowing us to prepare for danger or cope with stress. Like needing to run away from something that wants to eat us, or there is not enough food for us to keep functioning at this level of energy use. Cortisol is released by our Adrenal Gland, and if levels become too high from constant stress, or from not eating enough of the right foods.( where our bodies think it might be awhile before we get fat again, or protein again, or carbohydrates again) The increased Cortisol signals the Thyroid which is responsible for telling the cells how quickly to "burn" energy. The Thyroid slows down it's important hormone production by sending a signal to the Hypothalamus to slow production of HGH in the Pituitary gland, so the energy "burn" slows down by the Thyroid which slows down production of important hormones needed to tell the cells "burn" more energy. This then slows down fat storage be burned for energy, and to hold on to it for the future in case it needs it later, and so the body can then lower the Cortisol levels back to normal. Then when the body perceives cortisol levels are lower, and we are no longer in "Fight or Flight", and hey look we are getting the fat, and/ or protein, and/or carbohydrates we needed again. The Hypothalamus says OK lets pick up energy use again to maintain our muscle, and HGH goes back up, Thyroid function goes back up, we "burn" more energy again. Insulin is part of this function too, If we avoid peaks, and valleys by eating consistently enough that our bodies get a gentle roll in our bloodsugar levels instead of spikes, and than dramatic drops our bodies see this as an abundant food supply is at hand we can afford to let go of some of the stored energy to help the energy "burn" in our cells so we can grow lean muscle which uses more energy, and we have plenty of good nutrient rich food to do that. My idea of what "starvation mode" means , nothing like real starvation as in, dying because there is not enough to even maintain normal life function. It is "starving" your cells of a well balanced nutrient rich diet, through poor caloric intake for you own person. This means you need to find the right calorie intake for you! The way I think we do this is by trail and error. You have to have variety (to ensure you are getting all the nutrients needed), consistency (so your hormones such as Cortisol stay balance to optimize energy "burn", and just enough calories (to keep you satisfied, or not hungry {so you don't binge and throw off your bloodsugar level}). Since some of us are heavily muscled, and some are not we require a specifically tailored amount of calories to maintain the balance. The more lean muscle, the more calories you may need to maintain that lean muscle. The less lean muscle you have means, you need less calories in your daily diet. Exercise is important to build the lean muscle needed to burn more energy. The calorie intake is important to maintain hormone balance to let go of fat stored. Both components are important to losing weight, but understand they are different components that have to work together to achieve your ultimate goal of a slim, well muscled, lean you. So still long winded, but way more technical description of how I understand what I have learned than any analogy I could try to spit out. I promise I will never try to story tell again. I will stick to the facts.Here is another thing to keep in mind Fat just sits there. You do not burn any energy to have an over abundance of fat. Fat is a storage shelf for the body. Think of it as the closet you jam things in you might need down the road (energy), or things you don't know how to get rid of (toxins). It just sits there closed, and you never look into it until you need something. Lean muscle is used constantly (so it needs energy constantly to maintain). It is like the kitchen in a house full of people, there is always someone cooking in it. The more lean muscle you have the more fuel it needs (the more you have to cook). If you are overweight, and you stop taking in more junk than you really need (to shove in the closet), and start building more lean muscle(cooking in your own kitchen kitchen) your eventually going to need that pan your mom bought you in that storage closet. Guess what that pan, is at the bottom of the closet so you have to clean it out to get to it, and then you find the hiking boots(exercise) you have been looking for to build even more lean muscle(means more energy is needed). So now you have to cook more food in the kitchen, but you don't have anymore pans in the closet, because you have cleaned out the junk. Now you have no choice but to go buy another set, and keep cooking more food, more often to keep up. Nothing is stored, and nothing is wasted. This is how our bodies should be. Hormones are the lubricant to keep the body functions moving, and keep us from becoming content with the closet full of junk we might need down the road, if life changes. It works for me to see it this way, but maybe not for you. I hope this info helps someone else that the only reason I am writing novels here...lol If someone has a better way to put it, or something else to add to the collective wealth of knowledge please enlighten!
So this was a total ramble to try to say how I picture the studies I have read, and how I perceive the body using fat, and energy, and how lean muscle is built. It was really bad...... I am not a writer by any means. Please excuse the poorly written analogy and just understand the bodies exposure to hormone shifts caused by poor diet choices. (i.e. super low calorie diets for extended periods of time, and/ or nutrient lacking foods)
so starvation mode is like an old set of pans that do not work any more????
Does your brain hurt? Mine does too!0 -
When I started MFP. I did the 1200 calorie thing and sometimes (or more) I ate my exercise calories back. Weight came off at a rate of about 1 lb or so a week. Suddently, it stopped. I worked out like crazy and didn't eat more. Still no progress. Plus, I specifically remember not being able to sleep at night because I was sooo hungry. Food was always on my mind. I played around with the numbers but finally settled at 1769 (TDEE is around 2000) and not eating my exercise calories back. I am 3 lbs. away from my GW so weight loss is incredibly slow but that's ok as progress is still being made in other areas.
Do I think I was in "starvation mode"? Absolutely not! But...I do think I was seriously depriving my body of the things that it needs and eventually it just pushed back. That's just MY body though. I have seen enough threads on here to know that people are perfectly successful on 1200 calories and that's great. Success is what works for the individual. I like food!!!0 -
More my eyes, honestly. I'm sure there's something of value in there, but man... TL;DR: Extreme EditionDoes your brain hurt? Mine does too!0
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