Lift heavy, get strong, rawr! - Total load of crap
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madslacker
Posts: 39
So I've noticed a real problem with the advice I see for weight loss, lifting, etc. that I want to share some feedback on. (Including stickies on this forum, bb.com)
A few of the suggestions out there.
1. Lift heavy - Lift to failure, fatigue, etc. Focus on gaining strength.
2. Focus on compound exercises - Bench, row, deadlift, squat
This may be my own personal experience here - but I honestly believe that advice to be absolute bs. That's not to say that you can't have success with those principles. I'm confident that you can. That's also not to say you won't make impressive progress. I'm confident that you can.
The problem, as I see it, is that giving this advice to beginners will set them up for some serious problems down the road.
It's probably a much safer bet to focus people on creating a mind/muscle connection. Before you really get into the swing of things and generate that connection (which can take > 6 months) it can be extremely tricky to recognize subtle problems with form. Squatting from the knees, benching from the shoulders, etc.
Even when you have someone watching you (a trainer, experience partner) those small (or large) issues with form almost always exist. It becomes even more difficult when going through routines that focus on gaining strength (allpro, starting strength, etc.). What's the point of increasing weight on lifts that are probably not being performed correctly in the first place?
I mean, have you actually looked at the amount of detail that Riptoe goes in for each of the compound lifts? The idea that a beginner will get it right (especially as they do get stronger and start challenging themselves with more weight) is absolutely ridiculous.
Even in a perfect world where your noob form is great - your rotator cuff, elbows, knees, wrists are all probably weak. Unless you're a farmer or worked construction your whole life - one of the reasons you're here trying to shed fat is that you've lived soft. You haven't done things to strengthen your joints and less used muscles. There's a good chance (and everyone is unique so it doesn't apply to 100%) you're probably setting yourself up for injury. Sure you're able to bench press more weight, but you're ruining your perfectly health (but weak) rotator cuff in the process. Yeah you're squatting more but your knees are suffering for it.
It just seems to be much better advice to suggest that people slowly ease into strength training. Spend several months (even more depending on your age) with very controlled movements with weight that can e easily handled without fatigue to prepare for what would traditionally be considered a beginning bodybuilder routine.
I just get annoyed when I see stickies about weight loss and/or strength training (geared for beginners) and see the suggestion to "lift heavy and do the big compounds".
Any thoughts?
A few of the suggestions out there.
1. Lift heavy - Lift to failure, fatigue, etc. Focus on gaining strength.
2. Focus on compound exercises - Bench, row, deadlift, squat
This may be my own personal experience here - but I honestly believe that advice to be absolute bs. That's not to say that you can't have success with those principles. I'm confident that you can. That's also not to say you won't make impressive progress. I'm confident that you can.
The problem, as I see it, is that giving this advice to beginners will set them up for some serious problems down the road.
It's probably a much safer bet to focus people on creating a mind/muscle connection. Before you really get into the swing of things and generate that connection (which can take > 6 months) it can be extremely tricky to recognize subtle problems with form. Squatting from the knees, benching from the shoulders, etc.
Even when you have someone watching you (a trainer, experience partner) those small (or large) issues with form almost always exist. It becomes even more difficult when going through routines that focus on gaining strength (allpro, starting strength, etc.). What's the point of increasing weight on lifts that are probably not being performed correctly in the first place?
I mean, have you actually looked at the amount of detail that Riptoe goes in for each of the compound lifts? The idea that a beginner will get it right (especially as they do get stronger and start challenging themselves with more weight) is absolutely ridiculous.
Even in a perfect world where your noob form is great - your rotator cuff, elbows, knees, wrists are all probably weak. Unless you're a farmer or worked construction your whole life - one of the reasons you're here trying to shed fat is that you've lived soft. You haven't done things to strengthen your joints and less used muscles. There's a good chance (and everyone is unique so it doesn't apply to 100%) you're probably setting yourself up for injury. Sure you're able to bench press more weight, but you're ruining your perfectly health (but weak) rotator cuff in the process. Yeah you're squatting more but your knees are suffering for it.
It just seems to be much better advice to suggest that people slowly ease into strength training. Spend several months (even more depending on your age) with very controlled movements with weight that can e easily handled without fatigue to prepare for what would traditionally be considered a beginning bodybuilder routine.
I just get annoyed when I see stickies about weight loss and/or strength training (geared for beginners) and see the suggestion to "lift heavy and do the big compounds".
Any thoughts?
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Replies
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Why do you assume that all calls to lift heavy don’t also come with go slow, learn the form, and progress responsibly? Initially, heavy can be body weight progressions. Would you rather have them go with machines or just not lift at all?
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Well, heavy is relative. I think "heavy" should be just challenging enough if you are beginner but not heavy to the point you are actually hurting yourself. I don't remember anyone ever implying newbies needed to lift an outrageously heavy amount relative to what they are capable of.0
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AllanMisner wrote: »Why do you assume that all calls to lift heavy don’t also come with go slow, learn the form, and progress responsibly? Initially, heavy can be body weight progressions. Would you rather have them go with machines or just not lift at all?
Undoubtedly - they do. I don't think anyone would preach lift heavy over lift with proper form.
The problem is that we're talking about advice to beginners who:
- probably don't know how close they are to failure or not
- don't truly understand the exercises they're performing
- certainly don't understand responsible progress, because they've never experienced it.
- Ultimately, have the potential to use weight that the major muscles can handle, but their joints, ligaments, knees, rotator cuff can't. Squeezing off that last rep or two as a test to progress can be the death of your shoulders.
I'm simply suggesting that "lift heavy" is poor advice to beginners who aren't ready to do so. Some people with good genes will have high success with this kind of advice. Many won't. It just seems irresponsible.
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AllanMisner wrote: »Why do you assume that all calls to lift heavy don’t also come with go slow, learn the form, and progress responsibly? Initially, heavy can be body weight progressions. Would you rather have them go with machines or just not lift at all?
^ agreed0 -
The same could be said for running or swimming. Form comes with time and practice.
I started with bodybuilding via machines and dumbbells in the late 90s because I came from exercise videos and later, trainers with the same mindset as you.
I started using barbells only 15 months ago and I saw very little crossover from my bodybuilding stuff to lifting heavy with barbells.
If you want to start lifitng with barbells on compound lifts, you gotta start working with barbells on compound lifts. Been there. Done that.0 -
madslacker wrote: »AllanMisner wrote: »Why do you assume that all calls to lift heavy don’t also come with go slow, learn the form, and progress responsibly? Initially, heavy can be body weight progressions. Would you rather have them go with machines or just not lift at all?
Undoubtedly - they do. I don't think anyone would preach lift heavy over lift with proper form.
The problem is that we're talking about advice to beginners who:
- probably don't know how close they are to failure or not
- don't truly understand the exercises they're performing
- certainly don't understand responsible progress, because they've never experienced it.
- Ultimately, have the potential to use weight that the major muscles can handle, but their joints, ligaments, knees, rotator cuff can't. Squeezing off that last rep or two as a test to progress can be the death of your shoulders.
I'm simply suggesting that "lift heavy" is poor advice to beginners who aren't ready to do so. Some people with good genes will have high success with this kind of advice. Many won't. It just seems irresponsible.
I've always seen beginners advised to follow a beginner program...which most start with nothing more than the bar, if that. I've never seen anyone tell a beginner to just go out and squat and load up the bar.0 -
kelly_e_montana wrote: »The same could be said for running or swimming. Form comes with time and practice.
The same problem exists with running. You may have the physical indurance to run 2 miles, but your ankles, shins, knees will need time to adapt.kelly_e_montana wrote: »I started with bodybuilding via machines and dumbbells in the late 90s because I came from exercise videos and later, trainers with the same mindset as you.
I'm not preaching machines.kelly_e_montana wrote: »I started using barbells only 15 months ago and I saw very little crossover from my bodybuilding stuff to lifting heavy with barbells.
If you want to start lifitng with barbells on compound lifts, you gotta start working with barbells on compound lifts. Been there. Done that.
And when you do start, it's best, in my opinion, to ease into it with weight that you aren't necessarily challenged by.
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Most of the recommended beginning barbell routines I'm familiar with are of the "start with the bar, and form first". Certainly anyone who's actually bothered to read through the Stronglifts site or Rip's Starting Strength book is going to realize that form always trumps more weight. I've lost count how many times I've deloaded and went back to working on form...still doesn't mean I'm not getting a lot of benefit out of the compound lifts. And I'm keeping the trainers and more experienced lifters entertained with my questions, too
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cwolfman13 wrote: »I've always seen beginners advised to follow a beginner program...which most start with nothing more than the bar, if that. I've never seen anyone tell a beginner to just go out and squat and load up the bar.
I've not seen a program that calls for the bar only. I mentioned a few.
I think those programs are perfectly acceptable for people who have conditioned their bodies as a whole in preparation for getting stronger (or potentially someone under some serious supervision from a quality trainer)- but not for your average flabby guy/gal out there trying to lose fat.
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I stopped taking you seriously following your inflammatory title, and was glad that I did so. You didn't say anything of actual substance. I don't think I've ever come across a beginning lifting program that didn't do exactly what you're claiming should be done.0
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cwolfman13 wrote: »madslacker wrote: »AllanMisner wrote: »Why do you assume that all calls to lift heavy don’t also come with go slow, learn the form, and progress responsibly? Initially, heavy can be body weight progressions. Would you rather have them go with machines or just not lift at all?
Undoubtedly - they do. I don't think anyone would preach lift heavy over lift with proper form.
The problem is that we're talking about advice to beginners who:
- probably don't know how close they are to failure or not
- don't truly understand the exercises they're performing
- certainly don't understand responsible progress, because they've never experienced it.
- Ultimately, have the potential to use weight that the major muscles can handle, but their joints, ligaments, knees, rotator cuff can't. Squeezing off that last rep or two as a test to progress can be the death of your shoulders.
I'm simply suggesting that "lift heavy" is poor advice to beginners who aren't ready to do so. Some people with good genes will have high success with this kind of advice. Many won't. It just seems irresponsible.
I've always seen beginners advised to follow a beginner program...which most start with nothing more than the bar, if that. I've never seen anyone tell a beginner to just go out and squat and load up the bar.
Yeah, generally I see people tell beginners to pick a program suited for beginners. Not to go balls to the wall just doing whatever they want. That's why Starting Strength or Stronglifts or New Rules of Lifting get suggested often. They also suggest looking into a trainer to work on form.0 -
madslacker wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »I've always seen beginners advised to follow a beginner program...which most start with nothing more than the bar, if that. I've never seen anyone tell a beginner to just go out and squat and load up the bar.
I've not seen a program that calls for the bar only. I mentioned a few.
I think those programs are perfectly acceptable for people who have conditioned their bodies as a whole in preparation for getting stronger (or potentially someone under some serious supervision from a quality trainer)- but not for your average flabby guy/gal out there trying to lose fat.
The book Starting Strength instructs you to starting with the bar and working on form.0 -
madslacker wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »I've always seen beginners advised to follow a beginner program...which most start with nothing more than the bar, if that. I've never seen anyone tell a beginner to just go out and squat and load up the bar.
I've not seen a program that calls for the bar only. I mentioned a few.
I think those programs are perfectly acceptable for people who have conditioned their bodies as a whole in preparation for getting stronger (or potentially someone under some serious supervision from a quality trainer)- but not for your average flabby guy/gal out there trying to lose fat.
We also suggest starting out with body weight exercises if they haven't gone to the gym in a while or are not comfortable with free weights.0 -
Hey! I started lifting in the 80s and my workouts are still a little stuck in the time warp. I do much more isolation than is currently recommended. I got a neurological disease in 2011 which has impaired my balance, so I can't do a lot of compound moves likes squats and lunges safely. I do agree that isolation work helps you understand the movements.0
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This is why you start out with a beginner type program like stronglifts 5x5, and use the barbell to start on each exercise to work up to heavy weights slowly. Yeah, I felt dumb at first with such little weight but it jumped up to 300+lb squats and deadlifts in no time that way0
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madslacker wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »I've always seen beginners advised to follow a beginner program...which most start with nothing more than the bar, if that. I've never seen anyone tell a beginner to just go out and squat and load up the bar.
I've not seen a program that calls for the bar only. I mentioned a few.
I think those programs are perfectly acceptable for people who have conditioned their bodies as a whole in preparation for getting stronger (or potentially someone under some serious supervision from a quality trainer)- but not for your average flabby guy/gal out there trying to lose fat.
Strong Curves, an often recommended program here, has a beginner program that doesn't even use the bar at first.
Stronglifts suggests starting with the bar or even lower weight if necessary.
Those are the only two I've read personally. I suspect NROL also does.0 -
madslacker wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »I've always seen beginners advised to follow a beginner program...which most start with nothing more than the bar, if that. I've never seen anyone tell a beginner to just go out and squat and load up the bar.
I've not seen a program that calls for the bar only. I mentioned a few.
I think those programs are perfectly acceptable for people who have conditioned their bodies as a whole in preparation for getting stronger (or potentially someone under some serious supervision from a quality trainer)- but not for your average flabby guy/gal out there trying to lose fat.
We also suggest starting out with body weight exercises if they haven't gone to the gym in a while or are not comfortable with free weights.
Yep! OP, the noobs (as I was/still am--I'm an "advanced noob", lol) who are serious about finding an appropriate strength program are intelligent enough to discern the "canned" advice of "lift heavy, eat big, rinse & repeat" from the truly helpful. Give us credit--we're not dumb.
And yes, I received exactly the advice usmcmp states above several months ago (probably straight from her, too--THANK YOU!). Never in my beginner mind to I take "Lift heavy" to mean dive straight into a program that is too big/complicated/heavy for *me*. I found my "heavy" (which is my own body weight, for the time being).
At no time has anyone suggested I do something far beyond my capabilities or strength level. Never. OP--your post almost sounds as if you're creating a situation that has never really occurred here (and I'm ALWAYS here, unless I missed it--but I'm sure I did not).0 -
AllanMisner wrote: »Why do you assume that all calls to lift heavy don’t also come with go slow, learn the form, and progress responsibly? Initially, heavy can be body weight progressions. Would you rather have them go with machines or just not lift at all?
THIS!!
Lift heavy is a call to progressive loading. Compound exercise are a call to get your muscles stronger the best way. Never do any of us say go to failure right away. If you're doing it right and continually failing, you deload 10-15% and work back up from there. The call to lift heavy is to build muscle which aids in burning fat. It's well known that when you get stronger, your muscles will recruit white fat by turning it into brown fat. Also, increased muscle uses more energy in a resting state. If you're trying to lose fat, lifting heavy is one of the best methods to use. Also, everyone here who recommends lift heavy also recommends many good starting routines with a very low weight beginning-- SS, SL 5X5, NROLFW, etc. People I've seen make recommendations also recommend a trainer for beginners. Someone who knows proper form, and proper progression. Lifting will also give people a connection to their body, its movements and abilities. It should make them body aware.
Also, for people that are "soft" as you say, lifting and putting a load on the body is one of the way to reverse all of the negative effects of all that sitting. Osteoporosis and osteopenia are an affect of sitting and not loading the bones and muscles.
FYI - my physical therapist, from injuries not due to lifting, loves lifting heavy. It's what they put you on towards the end of therapy. Compound all the way. What they love even more is crossfit. Crossfit pays for their kids college. Crossfit is where they are getting all their rotator cuff injuries, etc. The people they don't get in their office from crossfit are the people who got strong before starting crossfit. Something about weak people doing ring dips just pays off for them.0 -
thesupremeforce wrote: »I stopped taking you seriously following your inflammatory title, and was glad that I did so. You didn't say anything of actual substance. I don't think I've ever come across a beginning lifting program that didn't do exactly what you're claiming should be done.
+10 -
I think you are assuming that the only resource people have or will use is the forums promoting lifting as a positive addition to a fitness program. I think you are selling people short. These forums just encourage, plant the seed. Along with the advice comes any number of programs that could be followed, all of which have an incredible amount of detailed information. The average person would either lack the confidence and/or the equipment to throw themselves into a heavy lifting program. I don't think people interpret the information that way.0
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