Lift heavy, get strong, rawr! - Total load of crap
madslacker
Posts: 39
So I've noticed a real problem with the advice I see for weight loss, lifting, etc. that I want to share some feedback on. (Including stickies on this forum, bb.com)
A few of the suggestions out there.
1. Lift heavy - Lift to failure, fatigue, etc. Focus on gaining strength.
2. Focus on compound exercises - Bench, row, deadlift, squat
This may be my own personal experience here - but I honestly believe that advice to be absolute bs. That's not to say that you can't have success with those principles. I'm confident that you can. That's also not to say you won't make impressive progress. I'm confident that you can.
The problem, as I see it, is that giving this advice to beginners will set them up for some serious problems down the road.
It's probably a much safer bet to focus people on creating a mind/muscle connection. Before you really get into the swing of things and generate that connection (which can take > 6 months) it can be extremely tricky to recognize subtle problems with form. Squatting from the knees, benching from the shoulders, etc.
Even when you have someone watching you (a trainer, experience partner) those small (or large) issues with form almost always exist. It becomes even more difficult when going through routines that focus on gaining strength (allpro, starting strength, etc.). What's the point of increasing weight on lifts that are probably not being performed correctly in the first place?
I mean, have you actually looked at the amount of detail that Riptoe goes in for each of the compound lifts? The idea that a beginner will get it right (especially as they do get stronger and start challenging themselves with more weight) is absolutely ridiculous.
Even in a perfect world where your noob form is great - your rotator cuff, elbows, knees, wrists are all probably weak. Unless you're a farmer or worked construction your whole life - one of the reasons you're here trying to shed fat is that you've lived soft. You haven't done things to strengthen your joints and less used muscles. There's a good chance (and everyone is unique so it doesn't apply to 100%) you're probably setting yourself up for injury. Sure you're able to bench press more weight, but you're ruining your perfectly health (but weak) rotator cuff in the process. Yeah you're squatting more but your knees are suffering for it.
It just seems to be much better advice to suggest that people slowly ease into strength training. Spend several months (even more depending on your age) with very controlled movements with weight that can e easily handled without fatigue to prepare for what would traditionally be considered a beginning bodybuilder routine.
I just get annoyed when I see stickies about weight loss and/or strength training (geared for beginners) and see the suggestion to "lift heavy and do the big compounds".
Any thoughts?
A few of the suggestions out there.
1. Lift heavy - Lift to failure, fatigue, etc. Focus on gaining strength.
2. Focus on compound exercises - Bench, row, deadlift, squat
This may be my own personal experience here - but I honestly believe that advice to be absolute bs. That's not to say that you can't have success with those principles. I'm confident that you can. That's also not to say you won't make impressive progress. I'm confident that you can.
The problem, as I see it, is that giving this advice to beginners will set them up for some serious problems down the road.
It's probably a much safer bet to focus people on creating a mind/muscle connection. Before you really get into the swing of things and generate that connection (which can take > 6 months) it can be extremely tricky to recognize subtle problems with form. Squatting from the knees, benching from the shoulders, etc.
Even when you have someone watching you (a trainer, experience partner) those small (or large) issues with form almost always exist. It becomes even more difficult when going through routines that focus on gaining strength (allpro, starting strength, etc.). What's the point of increasing weight on lifts that are probably not being performed correctly in the first place?
I mean, have you actually looked at the amount of detail that Riptoe goes in for each of the compound lifts? The idea that a beginner will get it right (especially as they do get stronger and start challenging themselves with more weight) is absolutely ridiculous.
Even in a perfect world where your noob form is great - your rotator cuff, elbows, knees, wrists are all probably weak. Unless you're a farmer or worked construction your whole life - one of the reasons you're here trying to shed fat is that you've lived soft. You haven't done things to strengthen your joints and less used muscles. There's a good chance (and everyone is unique so it doesn't apply to 100%) you're probably setting yourself up for injury. Sure you're able to bench press more weight, but you're ruining your perfectly health (but weak) rotator cuff in the process. Yeah you're squatting more but your knees are suffering for it.
It just seems to be much better advice to suggest that people slowly ease into strength training. Spend several months (even more depending on your age) with very controlled movements with weight that can e easily handled without fatigue to prepare for what would traditionally be considered a beginning bodybuilder routine.
I just get annoyed when I see stickies about weight loss and/or strength training (geared for beginners) and see the suggestion to "lift heavy and do the big compounds".
Any thoughts?
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Replies
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Why do you assume that all calls to lift heavy don’t also come with go slow, learn the form, and progress responsibly? Initially, heavy can be body weight progressions. Would you rather have them go with machines or just not lift at all?
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Well, heavy is relative. I think "heavy" should be just challenging enough if you are beginner but not heavy to the point you are actually hurting yourself. I don't remember anyone ever implying newbies needed to lift an outrageously heavy amount relative to what they are capable of.0
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AllanMisner wrote: »Why do you assume that all calls to lift heavy don’t also come with go slow, learn the form, and progress responsibly? Initially, heavy can be body weight progressions. Would you rather have them go with machines or just not lift at all?
Undoubtedly - they do. I don't think anyone would preach lift heavy over lift with proper form.
The problem is that we're talking about advice to beginners who:
- probably don't know how close they are to failure or not
- don't truly understand the exercises they're performing
- certainly don't understand responsible progress, because they've never experienced it.
- Ultimately, have the potential to use weight that the major muscles can handle, but their joints, ligaments, knees, rotator cuff can't. Squeezing off that last rep or two as a test to progress can be the death of your shoulders.
I'm simply suggesting that "lift heavy" is poor advice to beginners who aren't ready to do so. Some people with good genes will have high success with this kind of advice. Many won't. It just seems irresponsible.
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AllanMisner wrote: »Why do you assume that all calls to lift heavy don’t also come with go slow, learn the form, and progress responsibly? Initially, heavy can be body weight progressions. Would you rather have them go with machines or just not lift at all?
^ agreed0 -
The same could be said for running or swimming. Form comes with time and practice.
I started with bodybuilding via machines and dumbbells in the late 90s because I came from exercise videos and later, trainers with the same mindset as you.
I started using barbells only 15 months ago and I saw very little crossover from my bodybuilding stuff to lifting heavy with barbells.
If you want to start lifitng with barbells on compound lifts, you gotta start working with barbells on compound lifts. Been there. Done that.0 -
madslacker wrote: »AllanMisner wrote: »Why do you assume that all calls to lift heavy don’t also come with go slow, learn the form, and progress responsibly? Initially, heavy can be body weight progressions. Would you rather have them go with machines or just not lift at all?
Undoubtedly - they do. I don't think anyone would preach lift heavy over lift with proper form.
The problem is that we're talking about advice to beginners who:
- probably don't know how close they are to failure or not
- don't truly understand the exercises they're performing
- certainly don't understand responsible progress, because they've never experienced it.
- Ultimately, have the potential to use weight that the major muscles can handle, but their joints, ligaments, knees, rotator cuff can't. Squeezing off that last rep or two as a test to progress can be the death of your shoulders.
I'm simply suggesting that "lift heavy" is poor advice to beginners who aren't ready to do so. Some people with good genes will have high success with this kind of advice. Many won't. It just seems irresponsible.
I've always seen beginners advised to follow a beginner program...which most start with nothing more than the bar, if that. I've never seen anyone tell a beginner to just go out and squat and load up the bar.0 -
kelly_e_montana wrote: »The same could be said for running or swimming. Form comes with time and practice.
The same problem exists with running. You may have the physical indurance to run 2 miles, but your ankles, shins, knees will need time to adapt.kelly_e_montana wrote: »I started with bodybuilding via machines and dumbbells in the late 90s because I came from exercise videos and later, trainers with the same mindset as you.
I'm not preaching machines.kelly_e_montana wrote: »I started using barbells only 15 months ago and I saw very little crossover from my bodybuilding stuff to lifting heavy with barbells.
If you want to start lifitng with barbells on compound lifts, you gotta start working with barbells on compound lifts. Been there. Done that.
And when you do start, it's best, in my opinion, to ease into it with weight that you aren't necessarily challenged by.
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Most of the recommended beginning barbell routines I'm familiar with are of the "start with the bar, and form first". Certainly anyone who's actually bothered to read through the Stronglifts site or Rip's Starting Strength book is going to realize that form always trumps more weight. I've lost count how many times I've deloaded and went back to working on form...still doesn't mean I'm not getting a lot of benefit out of the compound lifts. And I'm keeping the trainers and more experienced lifters entertained with my questions, too
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cwolfman13 wrote: »I've always seen beginners advised to follow a beginner program...which most start with nothing more than the bar, if that. I've never seen anyone tell a beginner to just go out and squat and load up the bar.
I've not seen a program that calls for the bar only. I mentioned a few.
I think those programs are perfectly acceptable for people who have conditioned their bodies as a whole in preparation for getting stronger (or potentially someone under some serious supervision from a quality trainer)- but not for your average flabby guy/gal out there trying to lose fat.
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I stopped taking you seriously following your inflammatory title, and was glad that I did so. You didn't say anything of actual substance. I don't think I've ever come across a beginning lifting program that didn't do exactly what you're claiming should be done.0
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cwolfman13 wrote: »madslacker wrote: »AllanMisner wrote: »Why do you assume that all calls to lift heavy don’t also come with go slow, learn the form, and progress responsibly? Initially, heavy can be body weight progressions. Would you rather have them go with machines or just not lift at all?
Undoubtedly - they do. I don't think anyone would preach lift heavy over lift with proper form.
The problem is that we're talking about advice to beginners who:
- probably don't know how close they are to failure or not
- don't truly understand the exercises they're performing
- certainly don't understand responsible progress, because they've never experienced it.
- Ultimately, have the potential to use weight that the major muscles can handle, but their joints, ligaments, knees, rotator cuff can't. Squeezing off that last rep or two as a test to progress can be the death of your shoulders.
I'm simply suggesting that "lift heavy" is poor advice to beginners who aren't ready to do so. Some people with good genes will have high success with this kind of advice. Many won't. It just seems irresponsible.
I've always seen beginners advised to follow a beginner program...which most start with nothing more than the bar, if that. I've never seen anyone tell a beginner to just go out and squat and load up the bar.
Yeah, generally I see people tell beginners to pick a program suited for beginners. Not to go balls to the wall just doing whatever they want. That's why Starting Strength or Stronglifts or New Rules of Lifting get suggested often. They also suggest looking into a trainer to work on form.0 -
madslacker wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »I've always seen beginners advised to follow a beginner program...which most start with nothing more than the bar, if that. I've never seen anyone tell a beginner to just go out and squat and load up the bar.
I've not seen a program that calls for the bar only. I mentioned a few.
I think those programs are perfectly acceptable for people who have conditioned their bodies as a whole in preparation for getting stronger (or potentially someone under some serious supervision from a quality trainer)- but not for your average flabby guy/gal out there trying to lose fat.
The book Starting Strength instructs you to starting with the bar and working on form.0 -
madslacker wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »I've always seen beginners advised to follow a beginner program...which most start with nothing more than the bar, if that. I've never seen anyone tell a beginner to just go out and squat and load up the bar.
I've not seen a program that calls for the bar only. I mentioned a few.
I think those programs are perfectly acceptable for people who have conditioned their bodies as a whole in preparation for getting stronger (or potentially someone under some serious supervision from a quality trainer)- but not for your average flabby guy/gal out there trying to lose fat.
We also suggest starting out with body weight exercises if they haven't gone to the gym in a while or are not comfortable with free weights.0 -
Hey! I started lifting in the 80s and my workouts are still a little stuck in the time warp. I do much more isolation than is currently recommended. I got a neurological disease in 2011 which has impaired my balance, so I can't do a lot of compound moves likes squats and lunges safely. I do agree that isolation work helps you understand the movements.0
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This is why you start out with a beginner type program like stronglifts 5x5, and use the barbell to start on each exercise to work up to heavy weights slowly. Yeah, I felt dumb at first with such little weight but it jumped up to 300+lb squats and deadlifts in no time that way0
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madslacker wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »I've always seen beginners advised to follow a beginner program...which most start with nothing more than the bar, if that. I've never seen anyone tell a beginner to just go out and squat and load up the bar.
I've not seen a program that calls for the bar only. I mentioned a few.
I think those programs are perfectly acceptable for people who have conditioned their bodies as a whole in preparation for getting stronger (or potentially someone under some serious supervision from a quality trainer)- but not for your average flabby guy/gal out there trying to lose fat.
Strong Curves, an often recommended program here, has a beginner program that doesn't even use the bar at first.
Stronglifts suggests starting with the bar or even lower weight if necessary.
Those are the only two I've read personally. I suspect NROL also does.0 -
madslacker wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »I've always seen beginners advised to follow a beginner program...which most start with nothing more than the bar, if that. I've never seen anyone tell a beginner to just go out and squat and load up the bar.
I've not seen a program that calls for the bar only. I mentioned a few.
I think those programs are perfectly acceptable for people who have conditioned their bodies as a whole in preparation for getting stronger (or potentially someone under some serious supervision from a quality trainer)- but not for your average flabby guy/gal out there trying to lose fat.
We also suggest starting out with body weight exercises if they haven't gone to the gym in a while or are not comfortable with free weights.
Yep! OP, the noobs (as I was/still am--I'm an "advanced noob", lol) who are serious about finding an appropriate strength program are intelligent enough to discern the "canned" advice of "lift heavy, eat big, rinse & repeat" from the truly helpful. Give us credit--we're not dumb.
And yes, I received exactly the advice usmcmp states above several months ago (probably straight from her, too--THANK YOU!). Never in my beginner mind to I take "Lift heavy" to mean dive straight into a program that is too big/complicated/heavy for *me*. I found my "heavy" (which is my own body weight, for the time being).
At no time has anyone suggested I do something far beyond my capabilities or strength level. Never. OP--your post almost sounds as if you're creating a situation that has never really occurred here (and I'm ALWAYS here, unless I missed it--but I'm sure I did not).0 -
AllanMisner wrote: »Why do you assume that all calls to lift heavy don’t also come with go slow, learn the form, and progress responsibly? Initially, heavy can be body weight progressions. Would you rather have them go with machines or just not lift at all?
THIS!!
Lift heavy is a call to progressive loading. Compound exercise are a call to get your muscles stronger the best way. Never do any of us say go to failure right away. If you're doing it right and continually failing, you deload 10-15% and work back up from there. The call to lift heavy is to build muscle which aids in burning fat. It's well known that when you get stronger, your muscles will recruit white fat by turning it into brown fat. Also, increased muscle uses more energy in a resting state. If you're trying to lose fat, lifting heavy is one of the best methods to use. Also, everyone here who recommends lift heavy also recommends many good starting routines with a very low weight beginning-- SS, SL 5X5, NROLFW, etc. People I've seen make recommendations also recommend a trainer for beginners. Someone who knows proper form, and proper progression. Lifting will also give people a connection to their body, its movements and abilities. It should make them body aware.
Also, for people that are "soft" as you say, lifting and putting a load on the body is one of the way to reverse all of the negative effects of all that sitting. Osteoporosis and osteopenia are an affect of sitting and not loading the bones and muscles.
FYI - my physical therapist, from injuries not due to lifting, loves lifting heavy. It's what they put you on towards the end of therapy. Compound all the way. What they love even more is crossfit. Crossfit pays for their kids college. Crossfit is where they are getting all their rotator cuff injuries, etc. The people they don't get in their office from crossfit are the people who got strong before starting crossfit. Something about weak people doing ring dips just pays off for them.0 -
thesupremeforce wrote: »I stopped taking you seriously following your inflammatory title, and was glad that I did so. You didn't say anything of actual substance. I don't think I've ever come across a beginning lifting program that didn't do exactly what you're claiming should be done.
+10 -
I think you are assuming that the only resource people have or will use is the forums promoting lifting as a positive addition to a fitness program. I think you are selling people short. These forums just encourage, plant the seed. Along with the advice comes any number of programs that could be followed, all of which have an incredible amount of detailed information. The average person would either lack the confidence and/or the equipment to throw themselves into a heavy lifting program. I don't think people interpret the information that way.0
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I think the real problem here is simply that you're just not familiar with what most good beginner programs recommend. Any one that I've ever seen recommends starting with very light weight and focusing on technique. I started with Stronglifts and Starting Strength which both have you start with just the bar (as do many others). Plus they have comprehensive text and video on perfecting your form. You're complaining about a problem that doesn't exist.0
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Isn't "lifting heavy" just a colloquialism for using free weights/barbells instead of machines and high rep/little (3-5 lb) dumbells or bodyweight routines? (ETA: Or at least, building up to the point of using free weights/barbells/bigger dumbbells?)0
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I think the real problem here is simply that you're just not familiar with what most good beginner programs recommend. Any one that I've ever seen recommends starting with very light weight and focusing on technique. I started with Stronglifts which has you start with just the bar (as do many others). You're complaining about a problem that doesn't exist.
Bingo! OP--DYELB?
I don't, but I read lots and lots, and I've never seen a program that does not have a beginner assessment, including no bar/bar only/appropriately deloaded/etc. to introduce noobs to the exercises without risk of injury due to "too much/too soon."
Heck, even my Body By You (Mark Lauren) program tells beginners to start with the easiest exercises and progress until form breaks (not even to failure) to find our starting place. First exercise is wall pushups--yep, standing up with hands on the wall, to perfect form.0 -
OP - I agree. I started last March and slowly worked my way up improving cardio, strength, flexibility. I am still a novice lifter and I started SL 5X5 in December and I must say I think it was pushing me too fast and too heavy. When the weights got heavy, I was cheating on some lifts and would be very sore afterwards and eventually hurt my knee on the squats.
I have since significantly deloaded and am progressing the weights much slower and only doing the 3X50 -
Pretty much every recommendation to 'lift heavy' that I've seen has been partnered with recommendations to read well respected publications like 'Starting Strength' or 'New Rules of Lifting', which include beginner focused progressive programs that typically start with an empty bar or less.
People are also encouraged to film their form and allow more experienced lifters to critique and advise them.
In short, I agree with DopeItUp. Your thinking would be sound if people were just being told to load up 3 plates and squat, but that's generally not what's happening. And I'm pretty sure anyone that did recommend that would be ripped a new one by the experienced and responsible lifters of the forum.0 -
Purely anecdotal evidence for you - I was one of those people two years ago that had never picked up a barbell in my life. The good people of MFP directed me to some incredible learning resources and, starting with an empty bar, I began my slow and steady introduction to weightlifting. I've never been injured.
In the new year I hit a 365lb conventional deadlift. This morning I hit 5x405lb rackpulls. Nice neutral back on both, no drama. Because I built slow and focus on form.
The beginner who opts to only hear 'lift heavy' and ignore 'start light' and 'review all these resources' only has themselves to blame for injuries. Not people who told them that barbell training was a great tool for increasing all round health.0 -
cheshirecatastrophe wrote: »Isn't "lifting heavy" just a colloquialism for using free weights/barbells instead of machines and high rep/little (3-5 lb) dumbells or bodyweight routines? (ETA: Or at least, building up to the point of using free weights/barbells/bigger dumbbells?)
Honestly, that's how I've mostly interpreted it on these boards.
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3dogsrunning wrote: »madslacker wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »I've always seen beginners advised to follow a beginner program...which most start with nothing more than the bar, if that. I've never seen anyone tell a beginner to just go out and squat and load up the bar.
I've not seen a program that calls for the bar only. I mentioned a few.
I think those programs are perfectly acceptable for people who have conditioned their bodies as a whole in preparation for getting stronger (or potentially someone under some serious supervision from a quality trainer)- but not for your average flabby guy/gal out there trying to lose fat.
Strong Curves, an often recommended program here, has a beginner program that doesn't even use the bar at first.
Stronglifts suggests starting with the bar or even lower weight if necessary.
Those are the only two I've read personally. I suspect NROL also does.
NROL does indeed start with dumbbell, body weight, and machine suggestions. It was the very book the forums suggested to me when I was tour avergae flabby out of shape gal and i felt it catered to beginners perfectly. I'm doing Strong Curves now which, as you noted, has a body weight program as well as a chapter that deals in depth with stretching and flexibility.
Not sure how much more beginner it could get.0 -
Wookinpanub wrote: »OP - I agree. I started last March and slowly worked my way up improving cardio, strength, flexibility. I am still a novice lifter and I started SL 5X5 in December and I must say I think it was pushing me too fast and too heavy. When the weights got heavy, I was cheating on some lifts and would be very sore afterwards and eventually hurt my knee on the squats.
I have since significantly deloaded and am progressing the weights much slower and only doing the 3X5
Did you actually read the SL 5*5 material and watch the many videos on form that the author has up?
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Not to mention the fact that there is probably an equal (or greater) chance of injury for a beginner lifter who is just picking isolation exercises at random. Designing a lifting program is complex, and having a newbie pick and choose which isolation exercises they want to do is virtually guaranteeing that they will not be doing any kind of a balanced program.0
This discussion has been closed.
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