Lift heavy, get strong, rawr! - Total load of crap
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madslacker wrote: »I think that if you've been obese, inactive, poor posture and poor diet for many years there's a good chance that you require some sort of conditioning before beginning.
>_<
You're just not getting it.0 -
madslacker wrote: »I think that if you've been obese, inactive, poor posture and poor diet for many years there's a good chance that you require some sort of conditioning before beginning.
>_<
You're just not getting it.
Does he mean a 2 week detox before lifting?
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yopeeps025 wrote: »madslacker wrote: »I think that if you've been obese, inactive, poor posture and poor diet for many years there's a good chance that you require some sort of conditioning before beginning.
>_<
You're just not getting it.
Does he mean a 2 week detox before lifting?
Probably.
What's funny is that some of us actually have to worry about detox therapy, and not the kind the overly concerned soccer parents post about here are talking about.
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You can't be serious.- Not a lot of people have access to good face-to-face instruction. Lots can't afford it, but also, there's a lack of good instruction at a lot of gyms. So even those who can afford a trainer sometimes come up craps
That's due to a failure in proper research. I live in BFE. Seriously, Thai food and food trucks are the new "hot trends". That came, got hot, and chilled about what, 15 years ago in LA?
I decided I wanted to learn olympic lifting. So instead of going to the Y and asking for a derptrainer, or going to a crossfit place to sign up with an unknown who got his weekend certification last week. I got on teh innerwebbinz did some research, contacted the state president of the coaching system I wanted to find a coach from, and then got a referral based on my specific parameters provided to the person I contacted.
We're talking like, sub 2 hours of research, and three emails to find quality. It's not hard, it just requires a teeny bit of work.
There are far more derptrainers than there are good ones, are you kidding? Further, a lot of non derptrainers might be great at training 20 y/o males with no vulnerabilities, but not have experience with older, sedentary bodies and/or training after rehab.0 -
AllanMisner wrote: »AllanMisner wrote: »
I also think you’re over emphasizing the inherent weaknesses of the untrained. Most will never come close to pushing themselves past the limitations of their connective tissue.
totally disagree with bolded.
Then it is your experience that most newbies over-train?
Injury isn't just due to overtraining. I think a lot of newbies have crappy biomechanics and bad habits and don't even know how to look for that in a mirror. Also, as I mentioned, a lot of them don't have access to good trainers who can help them.
Any given day on MFP, you'll see a bunch of posts about someone's knee or back, and how they can't walk to the bathroom but want to train through it.0 -
madslacker wrote: »I think that if you've been obese, inactive, poor posture and poor diet for many years there's a good chance that you require some sort of conditioning before beginning.
>_<
You're just not getting it.
What's s/he not getting? There definitely is research on "prehab" and "preparatory" programs. One I saw recently was about preventing anterior knee pain in military recruits. (This kind of thing is now required because a lot of the recruits lately are apparently overweight.)
here
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/224867744_Exercise_training_to_prevent_anterior_knee_pain_in_military_recruits
ABSTRACT : To investigate the incidence of anterior knee pain among new recruits participating in a targeted exercise intervention, as an addition to army basic training, compared with recruits in an unmodified training program.
: Single-blind, cluster (by troop) randomized, controlled trial, during the 14-week period of basic military training.
: The Army Training Centre (Pirbright, United Kingdom) between July 2006 and February 2007.
: Army recruits, who enlisted at the Army Training Centre and passed the entry medical examination, participated in the study (n = 1502). The participants were divided into 50 single-sex troops (mean n = 41; range, 22-48).
: All participants trained for 3 to 4 hours per day in endurance marching, military field exercises, running, weapons and foot drill, strength and conditioning, and classroom lessons. At the beginning of physical training sessions, the troops assigned to prevention of anterior knee pain (n = 759 persons) did 4 closed kinetic chain quadriceps and gluteal strengthening exercises and finished with 4 static stretches of the quadriceps, iliotibial band, hamstring, and gastrocnemius muscles. Position of the hip and knee in relation to the foot was emphasized. The 15-minute daily sessions were supervised by specially trained army instructors. The control group participants (n = 743) were assigned to existing military warm-up and warm-down exercises, including slow running, upper-body and lower-body stretching, abdominal curls, and push-up drills. Attendance at the physical training sessions was 91%.
: The primary outcome was the incidence of overuse anterior knee pain during the training period. Recruits with knee pain were examined by a medical officer and diagnosed by experienced physiotherapists. Criteria for the diagnosis were anterior or retropatellar knee pain from ≥2 of prolonged sitting, stair climbing, squatting, running, kneeling, and hopping; insidious onset unrelated to trauma; and presence of pain on palpation of the patellar facets, on step down, or during a double-legged squat. Exclusion criteria were signs and symptoms of intraarticular pathology or other pathologic conditions or a history of patellar dislocation, surgery, or structural damage to the knee. Secondary outcomes were related to the successful completion of training and medical or other discharges from training.
: The cumulative number of new cases of anterior knee pain in the intervention group was lower (10 cases; incidence, 1.3%; 95% confidence interval [CI], 0.7%-2.4%) than that in the control group (36 cases; incidence, 4.8%; 95% CI, 3.5%-6.7%). The incidence per recruit-month was lower in the intervention group compared with the control group (0.005 vs 0.020; P < 0.01). Adjustment for sex, clustering, and other risk factors did not modify the results. Overall, there was a 75% reduction in risk of anterior knee pain in the intervention group (unadjusted hazard ratio = 0.25; 95% CI, 0.13-0.48; P < 0.001). More of the intervention group than the control group successfully completed training (79.7% vs 67.8%); fewer were medically discharged (0.4% vs 3.4%); and fewer were discharged as "unfit for army service" (0.8% vs 3.1%). A greater proportion of the intervention group who were diagnosed with anterior knee pain during the study, compared with the control group, completed training (90% vs 44.4%).
: Daily preventative exercises during a military basic training camp successfully reduced the incidence of anterior knee pain in recruits. More of the intervention group avoided medical discharges and completed their basic training.0 -
madslacker wrote: »I think that if you've been obese, inactive, poor posture and poor diet for many years there's a good chance that you require some sort of conditioning before beginning.
>_<
You're just not getting it.
What's s/he not getting? There definitely is research on "prehab" and "preparatory" programs. One I saw recently was about preventing anterior knee pain in military recruits. (This kind of thing is now required because a lot of the recruits lately are apparently overweight.)
Yup to bold
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AllanMisner wrote: »AllanMisner wrote: »
I also think you’re over emphasizing the inherent weaknesses of the untrained. Most will never come close to pushing themselves past the limitations of their connective tissue.
totally disagree with bolded.
Then it is your experience that most newbies over-train?
Injury isn't just due to overtraining. I think a lot of newbies have crappy biomechanics and bad habits and don't even know how to look for that in a mirror. Also, as I mentioned, a lot of them don't have access to good trainers who can help them.
Any given day on MFP, you'll see a bunch of posts about someone's knee or back, and how they can't walk to the bathroom but want to train through it.
But that's not a problem with lifting. That's a general problem with people doing any kind of physical activity. People make those posts and the issues are from a wide range of activities - running, lifting, biking, etc. The issue would be overall knowledge of fitness, not isolated to people lifting weights.0 -
AllanMisner wrote: »AllanMisner wrote: »
I also think you’re over emphasizing the inherent weaknesses of the untrained. Most will never come close to pushing themselves past the limitations of their connective tissue.
totally disagree with bolded.
Then it is your experience that most newbies over-train?
Injury isn't just due to overtraining. I think a lot of newbies have crappy biomechanics and bad habits and don't even know how to look for that in a mirror. Also, as I mentioned, a lot of them don't have access to good trainers who can help them.
Any given day on MFP, you'll see a bunch of posts about someone's knee or back, and how they can't walk to the bathroom but want to train through it.
But that's not a problem with lifting. That's a general problem with people doing any kind of physical activity. People make those posts and the issues are from a wide range of activities - running, lifting, biking, etc. The issue would be overall knowledge of fitness, not isolated to people lifting weights.
Agreed, I never blamed lifting, I said most people are kind of ignorant about how their bodies work and don't have access to good face to face instruction0 -
Running, I do blame0
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madslacker wrote: »Undoubtedly - they do. I don't think anyone would preach lift heavy over lift with proper form.
The problem is that we're talking about advice to beginners who:
- probably don't know how close they are to failure or not
- don't truly understand the exercises they're performing
- certainly don't understand responsible progress, because they've never experienced it.
- Ultimately, have the potential to use weight that the major muscles can handle, but their joints, ligaments, knees, rotator cuff can't. Squeezing off that last rep or two as a test to progress can be the death of your shoulders.
I'm simply suggesting that "lift heavy" is poor advice to beginners who aren't ready to do so. Some people with good genes will have high success with this kind of advice. Many won't. It just seems irresponsible.
Unfortunately, this happens in gyms as well. I have a genetic joint disorder that makes your last bullet point an extremely dangerous issue. Last time I went to a gym and even with advice to the trainer that I must go much slower than a normal beginner due to this issue - I still ended up in trouble (a lot).
Largely, the problem is that we have a public forum where anyone can post what they want. They can learn bad things and post those bad things.
Additionally, a lot of description is dropped out of the writings. "Heavy Lifting" really needs to be interpreted by a reader and too often they don't know how to find what "heavy" for them would be and they look at what others lift and try to do what others are doing.
Hopefully, others here are quick to discover bad advice being given and step in to encourage others and it would be great to see stickies about finding appropriate weights and how often one should lift as well as target areas.
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What's s/he not getting? There definitely is research on "prehab" and "preparatory" programs. One I saw recently was about preventing anterior knee pain in military recruits. (This kind of thing is now required because a lot of the recruits lately are apparently overweight.)
here
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/224867744_Exercise_training_to_prevent_anterior_knee_pain_in_military_recruits
Absolutely. In school and in working on my PES certification I spent a lot of time studying about preventing non-contact ACL and Ankle injuries and there is a lot of good data out there that supports such exercise. These aren't rehab programs and would fall into a "preparatory" category like he mentioned above. Some folks do need a prep resistance training period before they get into things like certain compound lifts, because they just don't have the proper function to correctly perform certain movements.0 -
perseverance14 wrote: »I lost a lot of weight but I was actually not weak when I started last April at 45 lbs, 35 lb. bar with 2 5 lb. weights. I read the instructions for StrongLifts and watched the videos every time, over and over and over. I video myself and watch it over and over and over. I was in a car accident in early December where I got a bad left-side only whiplash (got hit on Drivers side) and the insurance company said to me the only reason they thought I didn't get hurt worse was because I lift weights (I had to tell them because I asked for diagnostics at the hospital/Doctor to make sure I could go right back to it when I felt well enough). I had to start all over, back to 40 lbs. (I have fractionals now) after a lot of progression for 9 months. I am making great progress, I have used weight lifting as my physical therapy. I don't notice the difference between sides anymore. I am 53, and to say you should not do it if there is not some physical limitation is BS, it is the best thing you can do for yourself as you age, and if you can do it you should (that last sentence was not my opinion, that was my Doctor's opinion).
Please don't discourage people when lifting can be the right thing for them. I got hurt doing cardio, even HIIT for years, I got a hiatal hernia and got depressed as it gave me a lot of problems like GERD, I hardly exercised for a year and gained 20 lbs. on top of the 50 extra I already had, 25 of which would come and go doing HIIT all the time.
Weight lifting is helping me be strong and get/stay in shape. I don't have much weight left to lose, but I don't even care anymore because I am more interested in transforming my body. Cardio never did that for me, and I am not against cardio, but I do mostly walking for my cardio now...and that hernia? I don't even notice it anymore and my GERD is long gone.
Don't discourage people, let them find out what is right for them, if I listened to you I would not have done StrongLifts, and it has been the best thing for me out of anything I have ever tried.
Well said!!!
+10 -
jessupbrady wrote: »madslacker wrote: »Undoubtedly - they do. I don't think anyone would preach lift heavy over lift with proper form.
The problem is that we're talking about advice to beginners who:
- probably don't know how close they are to failure or not
- don't truly understand the exercises they're performing
- certainly don't understand responsible progress, because they've never experienced it.
- Ultimately, have the potential to use weight that the major muscles can handle, but their joints, ligaments, knees, rotator cuff can't. Squeezing off that last rep or two as a test to progress can be the death of your shoulders.
I'm simply suggesting that "lift heavy" is poor advice to beginners who aren't ready to do so. Some people with good genes will have high success with this kind of advice. Many won't. It just seems irresponsible.
Unfortunately, this happens in gyms as well. I have a genetic joint disorder that makes your last bullet point an extremely dangerous issue. Last time I went to a gym and even with advice to the trainer that I must go much slower than a normal beginner due to this issue - I still ended up in trouble (a lot).
Largely, the problem is that we have a public forum where anyone can post what they want. They can learn bad things and post those bad things.
Additionally, a lot of description is dropped out of the writings. "Heavy Lifting" really needs to be interpreted by a reader and too often they don't know how to find what "heavy" for them would be and they look at what others lift and try to do what others are doing.
Hopefully, others here are quick to discover bad advice being given and step in to encourage others and it would be great to see stickies about finding appropriate weights and how often one should lift as well as target areas.
Your final points about finding appropriate weights and how often one should lift are addressed in the programs that are suggested to beginners. People skip the reading material and just jump into the program. There is no one size fits all answer to it because it depends entirely on the program and how it is set up.
For example:
My program has me hitting each muscle group twice a week. One session my lifts are a calculated percentage of my one rep max and one session my lifts are based on rate of perceived exertion. The number of sets and reps along with the progression in the program dictate what appropriate weights and how I should lift would be.0 -
I think common sense should tell someone that's never picked up a weight before to go slow and learn. I don't think one person actually read "go lift heavy" and ran out to th garage and attempted a 200 pound squat. The advice, the theory, it's all sound, it's kind of up to each individual adult to be sure they're starting/progressing safely.0
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And form: no, I do not believe that the average person who has never exercised, will watch a few videos and read a book, will not talk to a trainer and is not in a gym to get tips from others, but will actually figure out the correct form for most compound exercises. Will perhaps be able to parrot what correct form should look like, but will not do it. And will also have no clue what he/she is doing wrong, and will jsut feel so smug for doing it right.
Get in the average gym and see how many regulars can do even a bodyweight squat properly. While most of them thing they are doing it perfectly, even with a trainer telling that what to fix. I doubt the posters here are so different and all just get it immediately after reading a book.
Serious question here. If it looks like you're doing it right, and it feels like you're doing it right... how will anyone ever know that you're not? i.e. yourself, your trainer, etc. I'm genuinely confused. If you look like you're doing it right, then what exactly is wrong?
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Wookinpanub wrote: »OP - I agree. I started last March and slowly worked my way up improving cardio, strength, flexibility. I am still a novice lifter and I started SL 5X5 in December and I must say I think it was pushing me too fast and too heavy. When the weights got heavy, I was cheating on some lifts and would be very sore afterwards and eventually hurt my knee on the squats.
I have since significantly deloaded and am progressing the weights much slower and only doing the 3X5
The program didn't push you, you pushed you beyond your ability, the program calls for weight increases as they are tolerated, not weight increases no matter what.0 -
You can't be serious.- Not a lot of people have access to good face-to-face instruction. Lots can't afford it, but also, there's a lack of good instruction at a lot of gyms. So even those who can afford a trainer sometimes come up craps
That's due to a failure in proper research. I live in BFE. Seriously, Thai food and food trucks are the new "hot trends". That came, got hot, and chilled about what, 15 years ago in LA?
I decided I wanted to learn olympic lifting. So instead of going to the Y and asking for a derptrainer, or going to a crossfit place to sign up with an unknown who got his weekend certification last week. I got on teh innerwebbinz did some research, contacted the state president of the coaching system I wanted to find a coach from, and then got a referral based on my specific parameters provided to the person I contacted.
We're talking like, sub 2 hours of research, and three emails to find quality. It's not hard, it just requires a teeny bit of work.
There are far more derptrainers than there are good ones, are you kidding? Further, a lot of non derptrainers might be great at training 20 y/o males with no vulnerabilities, but not have experience with older, sedentary bodies and/or training after rehab.
Still doesn't excuse someone from taking responsibility to learn proper form. You talk about money but there are a bunch of good websites and form videos for FREE that you can view.
You talk about older people and training after rehab like somehow that makes it totally acceptable to just not even try.
There are a ton of people, young and old, that use only free resources available and do just fine. Sarauk2sf is a perfect example of both someone older, used these free resources, and also did so after surviving a double cerebral aneurysm.
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jessupbrady wrote: »madslacker wrote: »Undoubtedly - they do. I don't think anyone would preach lift heavy over lift with proper form.
The problem is that we're talking about advice to beginners who:
- probably don't know how close they are to failure or not
- don't truly understand the exercises they're performing
- certainly don't understand responsible progress, because they've never experienced it.
- Ultimately, have the potential to use weight that the major muscles can handle, but their joints, ligaments, knees, rotator cuff can't. Squeezing off that last rep or two as a test to progress can be the death of your shoulders.
I'm simply suggesting that "lift heavy" is poor advice to beginners who aren't ready to do so. Some people with good genes will have high success with this kind of advice. Many won't. It just seems irresponsible.
Unfortunately, this happens in gyms as well. I have a genetic joint disorder that makes your last bullet point an extremely dangerous issue. Last time I went to a gym and even with advice to the trainer that I must go much slower than a normal beginner due to this issue - I still ended up in trouble (a lot).
Largely, the problem is that we have a public forum where anyone can post what they want. They can learn bad things and post those bad things.
Additionally, a lot of description is dropped out of the writings. "Heavy Lifting" really needs to be interpreted by a reader and too often they don't know how to find what "heavy" for them would be and they look at what others lift and try to do what others are doing.
Hopefully, others here are quick to discover bad advice being given and step in to encourage others and it would be great to see stickies about finding appropriate weights and how often one should lift as well as target areas.
On MFP, whenever "bad" things or misinformation is posted, it's usually very quickly called out and corrected (even though most of the time the people that do this tend to get called meanies, haters, or bullies)0 -
PikaKnight wrote: »
You can't be serious.- Not a lot of people have access to good face-to-face instruction. Lots can't afford it, but also, there's a lack of good instruction at a lot of gyms. So even those who can afford a trainer sometimes come up craps
That's due to a failure in proper research. I live in BFE. Seriously, Thai food and food trucks are the new "hot trends". That came, got hot, and chilled about what, 15 years ago in LA?
I decided I wanted to learn olympic lifting. So instead of going to the Y and asking for a derptrainer, or going to a crossfit place to sign up with an unknown who got his weekend certification last week. I got on teh innerwebbinz did some research, contacted the state president of the coaching system I wanted to find a coach from, and then got a referral based on my specific parameters provided to the person I contacted.
We're talking like, sub 2 hours of research, and three emails to find quality. It's not hard, it just requires a teeny bit of work.
There are far more derptrainers than there are good ones, are you kidding? Further, a lot of non derptrainers might be great at training 20 y/o males with no vulnerabilities, but not have experience with older, sedentary bodies and/or training after rehab.
Still doesn't excuse someone from taking responsibility to learn proper form. You talk about money but there are a bunch of good websites and form videos for FREE that you can view.
You talk about older people and training after rehab like somehow that makes it totally acceptable to just not even try.
There are a ton of people, young and old, that use only free resources available and do just fine. Sarauk2sf is a perfect example of both someone older, used these free resources, and also did so after surviving a double cerebral aneurysm.
Agree!! I watched a ton of videos on how to do lifts and their forms, over and over until I got it down and ask questions when I couldn't find the answers.
I think people are just making excuses now why they can't do this or that.
I have osteoarthritis in both knees, I still lift heavy, I am just more careful when I do squats, I don't go low on them, nor do I do lunges, advised by my doctor. I have also had rotator cuff surgery and lifting has done wonders for my shoulder.0
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