Lift heavy, get strong, rawr! - Total load of crap

Sarauk2sf

tomatoey wrote: »

Sarauk2sf wrote: »

tomatoey wrote: »

The average person doesn't have the background or time to wade through the mountain of crap on the internet about fitness. Also, many lack the training experience to understand the feedback their bodies are giving them. "Is this normal pain?" "Is this DOMS?" "Is this the beginning of a stress fracture?"

People with athletic backgrounds, who've been coached, know better how to tell the difference.

Never been an athlete. Never was coached until recently (and that is online). I am pretty average and not in the fitness industry. I started learning about lifting from this site and went from there. You do not need to wade through a mountain of crap on the internet about fitness. Follow the programs that are suggested - and read the 'instructions' - which most people do not bother to do - until you are experienced enough to start tweaking your program youself.

What I am saying is that people have different bodies and different vulnerabilities, and it's impossible to know in advance what they might be. Maybe you have good genes and no pre-existing biomechanical issues; that's not true for everyone, and it's not necessarily a minority. A previous poster in this thread talked about having a genetic issue, I don't know what it was but it sounds like hypermobility (from which I also suffer). Hypermobile people should be lifting, but they need to stay in the middle range of motion, and keep weights lighter. More people than you might imagine are hypermobile. People who are overweight and have been sedentary for years might not have any idea about their individual risks (because they've not tested them out), and, they might have accumulated new risks from their inactivity. A typical beginner's program might not be enough to prepare everybody's body.

There is good research on preventing injuries with prep programs, like the one I mentioned above that addresses anterior knee issues, and the ones Sam_I_Am77 mentioned (and trained in).

I am not disagreeing with the fact that people need to be careful (and that is the case no matter how experienced you are) and pay attention to what is going on with their bodies. I also think that for someone extremely sedentary and/or overweight would do better with a more 'into' type routine, so I 'get' the concern - but the OP is terrible (looks like they backtracked though) and general blanket statements, either way (as in to do something or not to do something) are usually wrong and you also need to look at the benefits and risks. You note that it is impossible to know in advance what issues someone may have - that is the case pretty much all the time though. At the end of the day, people need to be sensible and take the time to do some research - there are a lot of people who dive into these beginner programs without even reading the basics - it is not the programs 'fault' is something goes awry because of it.

tomatoey

Sarauk2sf wrote: »

tomatoey wrote: »

Sarauk2sf wrote: »

tomatoey wrote: »

The average person doesn't have the background or time to wade through the mountain of crap on the internet about fitness. Also, many lack the training experience to understand the feedback their bodies are giving them. "Is this normal pain?" "Is this DOMS?" "Is this the beginning of a stress fracture?"

People with athletic backgrounds, who've been coached, know better how to tell the difference.

Never been an athlete. Never was coached until recently (and that is online). I am pretty average and not in the fitness industry. I started learning about lifting from this site and went from there. You do not need to wade through a mountain of crap on the internet about fitness. Follow the programs that are suggested - and read the 'instructions' - which most people do not bother to do - until you are experienced enough to start tweaking your program youself.

What I am saying is that people have different bodies and different vulnerabilities, and it's impossible to know in advance what they might be. Maybe you have good genes and no pre-existing biomechanical issues; that's not true for everyone, and it's not necessarily a minority. A previous poster in this thread talked about having a genetic issue, I don't know what it was but it sounds like hypermobility (from which I also suffer). Hypermobile people should be lifting, but they need to stay in the middle range of motion, and keep weights lighter. More people than you might imagine are hypermobile. People who are overweight and have been sedentary for years might not have any idea about their individual risks (because they've not tested them out), and, they might have accumulated new risks from their inactivity. A typical beginner's program might not be enough to prepare everybody's body.

There is good research on preventing injuries with prep programs, like the one I mentioned above that addresses anterior knee issues, and the ones Sam_I_Am77 mentioned (and trained in).

I am not disagreeing with the fact that people need to be careful (and that is the case no matter how experienced you are) and pay attention to what is going on with their bodies. I also think that for someone extremely sedentary and/or overweight would do better with a more 'into' type routine, so I 'get' the concern - but the OP is terrible (looks like they backtracked though) and general blanket statements, either way (as in to do something or not to do something) are usually wrong and you also need to look at the benefits and risks. You note that it is impossible to know in advance what issues someone may have - that is the case pretty much all the time though. At the end of the day, people need to be sensible and take the time to do some research - there are a lot of people who dive into these beginner programs without even reading the basics - it is not the programs 'fault' is something goes awry because of it.

No, the established programs aren't at fault. To my mind, it's more a question of, are the right people doing them, at the right time. Some programs, e.g. those emphasizing continued linear progression, were not exactly designed for overweight, hypermobile, 40-somethings with bad biomechanics; they presume a base of relative health. Of course there are caveats in most good programs - stop if it hurts, or when form fails - but people tend to have an allergy to the fine print, especially when they get excited. Like I agree with the OP that most people are not going to be reading Rippetoe.

I think a lot of people could probably benefit from an initial injury prevention program, to establish a base, before moving on to something more challenging. Maybe, healthy, normal-weight 20 y/os could avoid it, but certainly sedentary, overweight people over a certain age, or people in whichever category involves most risk (I don't know what that would be, would leave it to stats to work out) would benefit from something like that.

Just more awareness in general of the need for caution and attentiveness to body signals, instead of the "go hard or go home" mentality, would be great.

Also, great if the kinds of trainers people run into at your average gym are required to have training in how to handle different populations (not sure if the case everywhere, should be)

madslacker

Appreciate the replies - both supportive and not so. Ultimately, I think an online forum can be useful for throwing an idea out with the intention of getting strong criticism. (Which my title and initial post certainly garnered). I think I was accused of backtracking previously and that's ok (I prefer to think of it as clarifying, but either way works). I'm not a politician - I didn't write the OP with the intention of dogmatically clinging to my opinions. My intention was to express some frustration, initiate conversation and get some harsh criticism in return. If people had feedback that disputed what I felt, I wanted to read it.

I did some digging on other sites and looked at Lyle Mcdonald's bodyrecomposition. From what I gather his personality leaves something to be desired (apparently seen as being a bit of a jerk), but I think the guy is fairly well respected for his knowledge and credentials. Certainly not a cracker box trainer.

I did some reading on a fairly recent series of lengthy articles he wrote on beginning weight training and it sure seems like there may have been support for my point of view.

A few relevant snippets comparing a few different programs he uses with clients (starting strength vs. beginning barbell vs. machine based). Bolded a few key points:

As noted above, my machine based program was aimed at total beginners seeking, usually, general health/fitness. They were generally older, had no previous experience in the weight room and had limited time to exercise. So I needed something that was time efficient, got the job done and that I could get them to a basic level of competency on quickly without overwhelming them. Again, in different contexts, either with individuals with different goals or who had had previous lifting experience, or what have you, a different approach was used.

And if you’re wondering why I’m beating this particular dead horse, it’s because I predict with 99% certainty that someone will read this article series and state that “Lyle McDonald only advocates a single set of machines for everybody.” And that’s simply not the case. Rather, it’s simply that I take into account the Importance of Context when it comes to training. And the context of a 35 year old female with no training experience and limited time to exercise is different than a 19 year old male who eventually wants to compete in powerlifting. And what I’d do in that each situation would be completely different.

And finally - equally relevant to this thread and the concerns I expressed:

Finally I’d note again that all of the above assumes an injury free individual with no major imbalances coming into the gym, an assumption that is often incorrect. In specific cases, very different approaches (with more remedial work on stretching or almost rehab type movements) might be indicated or necessary but that is far beyond the scope of this article.

^^ That is almost exactly how I felt I should have started. Specifically, "almost rehab type movements" to resolve imbalances/issues that I was starting with. I believe that had I done so, I would have been able to progress without some of the challenges I face today. How true is that going to be of people in their 30's, 40's and up who have been obese for a large number of years?

I just don't think that the program/starting point that you should recommend for a morbidly obese victim of their own unhealthy lifestyle is going to match the program/starting point for a 20 year old college kid. As pointed out previously - the same difference would apply for a 40 year old 250lbs male with 35% body fat and a 20 year old 160lbs male with 15% body fat with a mutual interest in running. They are in two completely different starting conditions and it's unlikely that they would train the same way. Doesn't this just seems like common sense?

Link to Lyle's article for those interested in reading it:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/beginning-weight-training-part-4.html/

punchgut

Not that I want to revive this, but read this today and it's relevant for the OP.

"A recent survey of CrossFit athletes found that 73.5% had experienced an injury during training, 7% of which required surgery. But before the anti-CrossFit crowd starts gloating, realize that this injury rate is similar to Olympic lifting, powerlifting, and gymnastics and lower than contact sports like rugby. Similar polls in runners find that in a given year, 13% of runners experience knee injuries, 8% get Achilles tendinitis, 7% suffer hamstring pulls, 10% deal with plantar fasciitis, 10% have shin splints, 14% report iliotibial band syndrome, and 6% get stress fractures. There’s no way around it: engaging in non-essential, extracurricular bouts of physical exertion, also known as working out, carries some risk. Not working out carries its own set of (greater) risks, but that’s beside the point. As many a lauded strength coach has said, injuries are a matter of when, not if. And many of these injuries become chronic injuries that stay with you for the rest of your life.

But why single out workout injuries when painters are falling from ladders, people are getting into car accidents, high school basketball players are tearing their ACLs, and desk jockeys are getting carpal tunnel syndrome? Those are unavoidable. Painters have to work on ladders and software developers have to type to eat. High school kids are going to play high school sports. People drive to get to work, pick up their kids, run errands. Accidents will happen. With training injuries, we make our bed and choose to fall out of it. We try for that extra rep when we know we probably shouldn’t. We attempt the CrossFit WOD as Rx’d even though we’re completely gassed. We choose to train for a marathon.

There are also regulations in place to protect people as they go about their days supporting the machine of civilization. We want people driving to work safely, so we have road signs, traffic signals, and lane dividers. We have workplace safety legislation to prevent excessive maiming of employee limbs. High school sports have referees and rulebooks. But once you step under the bar or strap on those running shoes, you’re on your own. Whatever happens is up to you alone.

We’re going to work out. We’re going to stay active and move our bodies and challenge our limits, but we don’t want to get injured. How do we limit these injuries? How do we make good choices?

Barring discussion of specific exercise techniques, like “keep your weight on your heels” or “break at the hips, not the back” or “land on the mid-to-forefoot when running” (because those are beyond the scope of this post and would turn it into a book), what can we do? What should we watch out for? What shouldn’t we ignore? What should we ignore?

Trust your gut.

Most of my injuries were preceded by a gut feeling that I should stop the workout. It’s not always a physical signal, and actual pain isn’t necessarily involved. It’s a subtle sensation that something is amiss and proceeding would be a poor choice.

What’s odd is that I can’t remember an instance where ignoring that feeling turned out well. As far as I can remember, it always ends with a tweak, sprain, pull, twinge, failed rep, or worse. It’s never been worth it, and yet I’ve done it so many times. I bet you have, too.

So stop it. Heed those hints we get from our subconscious."



Read more: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/is-your-workout-worth-the-risk/#ixzz3SxjEg7ig

cwolfman13

tomatoey wrote: »

The average person doesn't have the background or time to wade through the mountain of crap on the internet about fitness. Also, many lack the training experience to understand the feedback their bodies are giving them. "Is this normal pain?" "Is this DOMS?" "Is this the beginning of a stress fracture?"

People with athletic backgrounds, who've been coached, know better how to tell the difference.

Really...the average Joe/Jane can't tell the difference between being sore and actual injury pain? If that's the case, the human race truly is screwed...

AllanMisner

tomatoey wrote: »

The average person doesn't have the background or time to wade through the mountain of crap on the internet about fitness. Also, many lack the training experience to understand the feedback their bodies are giving them. "Is this normal pain?" "Is this DOMS?" "Is this the beginning of a stress fracture?"

People with athletic backgrounds, who've been coached, know better how to tell the difference.

I think the point you’re missing here is the context of the forum. They are specifically asking for advice, which leads me to believe they are on a quest for knowledge. These aren’t the people that “do not eat” is printed on the stay-dry pack in the vitamin jar. They are interested in improving their bodies and are seeking knowledge to do so.

With this forum and all the other resources available today, learning is as easy as a click. We only had muscle and fitness magazine when I was coming up. Like on the job training (OJT), we are on the bar training (OBT). As they gain experience, they’ll ask more and learn more. They will bridge the experience gap much faster than we did in the past.