Lift heavy, get strong, rawr! - Total load of crap
Replies
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Wookinpanub wrote: »OP - I agree. I started last March and slowly worked my way up improving cardio, strength, flexibility. I am still a novice lifter and I started SL 5X5 in December and I must say I think it was pushing me too fast and too heavy. When the weights got heavy, I was cheating on some lifts and would be very sore afterwards and eventually hurt my knee on the squats.
I have since significantly deloaded and am progressing the weights much slower and only doing the 3X5
Sounds like you missed the part of the program that very specifically instructs 'with proper form'. A rep with poor form is a missed rep, and should be handled as such. That in itself would slow the progression of the program.
If you were cheating reps, then you were pushing the program too fast, not the other way around.0 -
I can't even...0
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Lift with a good program and you'll get stronger.madslacker wrote: »I just get annoyed when I see stickies about weight loss and/or strength training (geared for beginners) and see the suggestion to "lift heavy and do the big compounds".
Particularly for the untrained. You're not credible enough to argue that. Unless of course you have a large body of published work on the PLoS for us to peruse.
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stumblinthrulife wrote: »Wookinpanub wrote: »OP - I agree. I started last March and slowly worked my way up improving cardio, strength, flexibility. I am still a novice lifter and I started SL 5X5 in December and I must say I think it was pushing me too fast and too heavy. When the weights got heavy, I was cheating on some lifts and would be very sore afterwards and eventually hurt my knee on the squats.
I have since significantly deloaded and am progressing the weights much slower and only doing the 3X5
Sounds like you missed the part of the program that very specifically instructs 'with proper form'. A rep with poor form is a missed rep, and should be handled as such. That in itself would slow the progression of the program.
If you were cheating reps, then you were pushing the program too fast, not the other way around.
Yup.
sometimes, people just don't know what they don't know. In this case, a cheated rep is no rep.0 -
I had a book on barbells and then noticed NROL on the forums - bought the book, started last February and have continued to progress.
The info is there if you are open - which admittedly a lot of people aren't. But those of us that have found it - what a pleasant surprise!0 -
stumblinthrulife wrote: »Wookinpanub wrote: »OP - I agree. I started last March and slowly worked my way up improving cardio, strength, flexibility. I am still a novice lifter and I started SL 5X5 in December and I must say I think it was pushing me too fast and too heavy. When the weights got heavy, I was cheating on some lifts and would be very sore afterwards and eventually hurt my knee on the squats.
I have since significantly deloaded and am progressing the weights much slower and only doing the 3X5
Sounds like you missed the part of the program that very specifically instructs 'with proper form'. A rep with poor form is a missed rep, and should be handled as such. That in itself would slow the progression of the program.
If you were cheating reps, then you were pushing the program too fast, not the other way around.
Truth.
I had to have this talk with my husband (he's a cardio bunny but I love him anyway) and his squats. Being able to knock out five ugly as sin squat/good morning hybrids does not a successful set make, sorry. That isn't the right form so it isn't the right 'lift' so you might as well have not done it.
Also a good way to screw up your back.0 -
Do you even?0
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cwolfman13 wrote: »madslacker wrote: »AllanMisner wrote: »Why do you assume that all calls to lift heavy don’t also come with go slow, learn the form, and progress responsibly? Initially, heavy can be body weight progressions. Would you rather have them go with machines or just not lift at all?
Undoubtedly - they do. I don't think anyone would preach lift heavy over lift with proper form.
The problem is that we're talking about advice to beginners who:
- probably don't know how close they are to failure or not
- don't truly understand the exercises they're performing
- certainly don't understand responsible progress, because they've never experienced it.
- Ultimately, have the potential to use weight that the major muscles can handle, but their joints, ligaments, knees, rotator cuff can't. Squeezing off that last rep or two as a test to progress can be the death of your shoulders.
I'm simply suggesting that "lift heavy" is poor advice to beginners who aren't ready to do so. Some people with good genes will have high success with this kind of advice. Many won't. It just seems irresponsible.
I've always seen beginners advised to follow a beginner program...which most start with nothing more than the bar, if that. I've never seen anyone tell a beginner to just go out and squat and load up the bar.
^Agreed. I have no clue what forum this guy is reading that he thought to come on here and start wagging a finger at people. Obviously not this one. Maybe, OP, you should read the threads a bit and get an idea of what is actually being said instead of jumping the gun and assuming things.0 -
stumblinthrulife wrote: »Wookinpanub wrote: »OP - I agree. I started last March and slowly worked my way up improving cardio, strength, flexibility. I am still a novice lifter and I started SL 5X5 in December and I must say I think it was pushing me too fast and too heavy. When the weights got heavy, I was cheating on some lifts and would be very sore afterwards and eventually hurt my knee on the squats.
I have since significantly deloaded and am progressing the weights much slower and only doing the 3X5
Sounds like you missed the part of the program that very specifically instructs 'with proper form'. A rep with poor form is a missed rep, and should be handled as such. That in itself would slow the progression of the program.
If you were cheating reps, then you were pushing the program too fast, not the other way around.
Yup.
sometimes, people just don't know what they don't know. In this case, a cheated rep is no rep.
I think unfortunately, people don't actually read these programs or actually follow the instructions...judging purely from the many posters who are befuddled by this very simple calculator, it is not a shocker that people don't actually read instructions or actually follow the programs that they say they're working with.
Nothing anyone can do about that...you can't fix stupid.0 -
Wookinpanub wrote: »OP - I agree. I started last March and slowly worked my way up improving cardio, strength, flexibility. I am still a novice lifter and I started SL 5X5 in December and I must say I think it was pushing me too fast and too heavy. When the weights got heavy, I was cheating on some lifts and would be very sore afterwards and eventually hurt my knee on the squats.
I have since significantly deloaded and am progressing the weights much slower and only doing the 3X5
It sounds like you didn't actually read the PDF/follow through on the instructions of SL 5x5. Medhi frequently mentions starting with the bar and stresses about form.
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"Lift heavy" = What ever is heavy for you.
It might be benching 400lbs, or it might be benching a set of 10lb dumbells. As long as it is pushing your limits it is heavy, and going to make you stronger.
But every program I have seen that is being pushed towards newbies has some version of "Start slow, learn the forms, if it seems too heavy back off".
Given the number of folks I've see walk in, with no plan, and try to guess how much weight they can handle by guessing high, or basing the weight off what they were doing on a machine...0 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »stumblinthrulife wrote: »Wookinpanub wrote: »OP - I agree. I started last March and slowly worked my way up improving cardio, strength, flexibility. I am still a novice lifter and I started SL 5X5 in December and I must say I think it was pushing me too fast and too heavy. When the weights got heavy, I was cheating on some lifts and would be very sore afterwards and eventually hurt my knee on the squats.
I have since significantly deloaded and am progressing the weights much slower and only doing the 3X5
Sounds like you missed the part of the program that very specifically instructs 'with proper form'. A rep with poor form is a missed rep, and should be handled as such. That in itself would slow the progression of the program.
If you were cheating reps, then you were pushing the program too fast, not the other way around.
Yup.
sometimes, people just don't know what they don't know. In this case, a cheated rep is no rep.
I think unfortunately, people don't actually read these programs or actually follow the instructions...judging purely from the many posters who are befuddled by this very simple calculator, it is not a shocker that people don't actually read instructions or actually follow the programs that they say they're working with.
Nothing anyone can do about that...you can't fix stupid.
QFT0 -
I highly suggest buying the startingstength book for beginners even if you do another program like Stronglifts. If you read, you can understand and implement. This isn't rocket science. I don't know why so many people dedicate so much time to diet and exercise and fail to read the book and use good form. You can also read the stronglifts web site in details about form or youtube. I still believe a hard back book is a great investment to all. If you have doubts about form, you can post it on the startingstrength.com web site.0
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OP you can't blame the forum for people who don't research and make conscious, thoughtful decisions about their exercises/health/etc.
I recently asked for advice on a lifting program and got good stuff in response. I'm currently reading everything I can get my hands on, so I can do this right. Because that's my responsibility.0 -
TheVirgoddess wrote: »OP you can't blame the forum for people who don't research and make conscious, thoughtful decisions about their exercises/health/etc.
I recently asked for advice on a lifting program and got good stuff in response. I'm currently reading everything I can get my hands on, so I can do this right. Because that's my responsibility.
Yeah girl0 -
Did we lose the block/hide feature? This would be a perfect time for it0
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I have been following postings about lifting on this site for about a year because I am relatively inexperienced and have been trying to learn (and do) more. Lots of other people must be in the same boat since "I'm new to lifting, what do you suggest" type of posts are very common. The advice has been quite sound with suggestings for beginner books, videos etc. as well as good reminders about learning proper form, being patient about gains, and personal stories that inspire. I consider these people my mentors. Of course, there are a few comments that are "out there" but this is to be expected with the internet. The vast majority of advice it quite good and it is your responsibility to figure out what would be appropriate for you. One does have to exercise their brain before their body.0
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So to understand what you are saying. You got advice on the internet, loaded more weight than your body could handle, and then I'd think injured yourself? Most of the 5x5 programs I've seen tell you to find your 1RM and then take a % of that to meet your expected set & rep range. If you are having a problem meeting that range then you lower then weight until it is comfortable and you're not hurting yourself. Once that has been found you then progressively add weight as you build familiarity/strength on what you are lifting.
You could easily make this mistake using any of the machines, dumbbells, stretching, running, walking etc.0 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »stumblinthrulife wrote: »Wookinpanub wrote: »OP - I agree. I started last March and slowly worked my way up improving cardio, strength, flexibility. I am still a novice lifter and I started SL 5X5 in December and I must say I think it was pushing me too fast and too heavy. When the weights got heavy, I was cheating on some lifts and would be very sore afterwards and eventually hurt my knee on the squats.
I have since significantly deloaded and am progressing the weights much slower and only doing the 3X5
Sounds like you missed the part of the program that very specifically instructs 'with proper form'. A rep with poor form is a missed rep, and should be handled as such. That in itself would slow the progression of the program.
If you were cheating reps, then you were pushing the program too fast, not the other way around.
Yup.
sometimes, people just don't know what they don't know. In this case, a cheated rep is no rep.
I think unfortunately, people don't actually read these programs or actually follow the instructions...judging purely from the many posters who are befuddled by this very simple calculator, it is not a shocker that people don't actually read instructions or actually follow the programs that they say they're working with.
Nothing anyone can do about that...you can't fix stupid.
Truth.
Why haven't I started 5/3/1?
I've only read it once.
There's a lot of 12 o'clock flashers out there, who refuse to read even the most basic instructions, and they are also gifted with this odd entitled desire to have immediate gainz handed to them on a silver platter.
meh.0 -
That doesn't block seeing posts from them, though, which is what I think they wanted to do.0 -
PikaKnight wrote: »
That doesn't block seeing posts from them, though, which is what I think they wanted to do.
I thought it did. oh, damn.
another way this forum is still not up to 2008 standards.0 -
madslacker wrote: »So I've noticed a real problem with the advice I see for weight loss, lifting, etc. that I want to share some feedback on. (Including stickies on this forum, bb.com)
A few of the suggestions out there.
1. Lift heavy - Lift to failure, fatigue, etc. Focus on gaining strength.
2. Focus on compound exercises - Bench, row, deadlift, squat
This may be my own personal experience here - but I honestly believe that advice to be absolute bs. That's not to say that you can't have success with those principles. I'm confident that you can. That's also not to say you won't make impressive progress. I'm confident that you can.
The problem, as I see it, is that giving this advice to beginners will set them up for some serious problems down the road.
It's probably a much safer bet to focus people on creating a mind/muscle connection. Before you really get into the swing of things and generate that connection (which can take > 6 months) it can be extremely tricky to recognize subtle problems with form. Squatting from the knees, benching from the shoulders, etc.
Even when you have someone watching you (a trainer, experience partner) those small (or large) issues with form almost always exist. It becomes even more difficult when going through routines that focus on gaining strength (allpro, starting strength, etc.). What's the point of increasing weight on lifts that are probably not being performed correctly in the first place?
I mean, have you actually looked at the amount of detail that Riptoe goes in for each of the compound lifts? The idea that a beginner will get it right (especially as they do get stronger and start challenging themselves with more weight) is absolutely ridiculous.
Even in a perfect world where your noob form is great - your rotator cuff, elbows, knees, wrists are all probably weak. Unless you're a farmer or worked construction your whole life - one of the reasons you're here trying to shed fat is that you've lived soft. You haven't done things to strengthen your joints and less used muscles. There's a good chance (and everyone is unique so it doesn't apply to 100%) you're probably setting yourself up for injury. Sure you're able to bench press more weight, but you're ruining your perfectly health (but weak) rotator cuff in the process. Yeah you're squatting more but your knees are suffering for it.
It just seems to be much better advice to suggest that people slowly ease into strength training. Spend several months (even more depending on your age) with very controlled movements with weight that can e easily handled without fatigue to prepare for what would traditionally be considered a beginning bodybuilder routine.
I just get annoyed when I see stickies about weight loss and/or strength training (geared for beginners) and see the suggestion to "lift heavy and do the big compounds".
Any thoughts?
There are a lot of Trolls out today. Did somebody feed Gizmo after midnight again?
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OP - why are you just singling out the advice to lift heavy? It seems to me that this could apply to any beginner program for running, swimming, body weight training, circuit training, yoga,etc….
so basically, no one can ever start lifting program because, beginner?
that is absurd….0 -
I went from 285 to 195 doing strong lifts, many sets of few reps and diet of course.0
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Meh.0
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OP - why are you just singling out the advice to lift heavy? It seems to me that this could apply to any beginner program for running, swimming, body weight training, circuit training, yoga,etc….
so basically, no one can ever start lifting program because, beginner?
that is absurd….
I signed up for MFP and told them I wanted to lose 2 pounds a week. I only got 1200 calories and they told me to exercise to eat more. I started running and got hurt, then I started binge eating when I would go over my calorie goal.
MFP and cardio is bad for your health.0 -
You know, to some people, lifting a 45-pound barbell with nothing on it <i>is</i> lifting heavy. I did a dumbbell program for a few months, working up to lifting 20-25 pounds on most of my sets. I just switched to NROLFW and wow, it's taking some time to get used to the bar. And that's just with squats and deadlifts. So I want to make sure I'm learning and getting it down before I can start adding weight.0
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madslacker wrote: »AllanMisner wrote: »Why do you assume that all calls to lift heavy don’t also come with go slow, learn the form, and progress responsibly? Initially, heavy can be body weight progressions. Would you rather have them go with machines or just not lift at all?
Undoubtedly - they do. I don't think anyone would preach lift heavy over lift with proper form.
The problem is that we're talking about advice to beginners who:
- probably don't know how close they are to failure or not
- don't truly understand the exercises they're performing
- certainly don't understand responsible progress, because they've never experienced it.
- Ultimately, have the potential to use weight that the major muscles can handle, but their joints, ligaments, knees, rotator cuff can't. Squeezing off that last rep or two as a test to progress can be the death of your shoulders.
I'm simply suggesting that "lift heavy" is poor advice to beginners who aren't ready to do so. Some people with good genes will have high success with this kind of advice. Many won't. It just seems irresponsible.
Okay, I’ll bite. Don’t lift until you learn how to lift, which you can’t do because you don’t know how to lift. And even then, you’re not fit enough to lift, so don’t lift until you’re fit enough to lift. How do we get beginners to lift weight that can actually do them some good?
The five primary lifts I propose people do (squat, deadlift, bench press, row/pull up, and overhead press) are basic functional movements that most of us have been doing as part of our daily living for all of our lives. Yes, form often has to be corrected (primarily due to mobility and strength imbalances). But I take the mindset that they are here to learn and they won’t just run off and attempt 300lb squats because they were told lifting heavy will benefit them. In fact, most of the least experienced are typically encouraged to seek out a personal trainer.
I also think you’re over emphasizing the inherent weaknesses of the untrained. Most will never come close to pushing themselves past the limitations of their connective tissue.
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