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If you're not building muscle in a deficit, you're...

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  • Posts: 353 Member
    I've heard the term "newb gains" tossed around but I am walking proof that you can get stronger on a deficit but it does only seem to last so long. I've been losing weight but toning my muscle at the same time. At some point, I will find a decent bottom and start working my way back up a little to build more muscle.

    The whole "you can't build muscle while burning fat and losing weight" thing is an absolute myth. If it isn't, then I am a mythological creature, which would be cool.
  • Posts: 12,950 Member
    sgthaggard wrote: »
    I measure my biceps - they've grown an inch in the past few weeks. My thighs? Also getting bigger. I do fall into the newbie gains and, given that I didn't have a lot to lose to begin with, I'm going to ride those gains into my first lean bulk. :grin:

    What exactly are you injecting/dosing?

    An inch on your bicep in a week?
    Test, obviously, what else?
    Anadrol?
  • Posts: 107 Member
    edited March 2015
    There are only a few ways that can be done:

    1. Pharmaceutically enhance
    2. newbie gains
    3. very overweight
    4. extended period away from training
    5. you are a genetic freak

    otherwise... pick a lane, choose a team. That juicy juice though for those halfnatty gains fuarrkk srs
  • Posts: 813 Member
    I've wondered about this, because my calf muscles on the outer sides of my calves are definitely well-formed now and I'm eating at a deficit. The muscle formation can be both seen and felt after using weights, up to 10 lbs, to do leg/knee exercises at physical therapy.

    The muscles on the inner side of my calves still haven't resumed their old form (I used a wheelchair for years), so my physical therapist suggested that I do calf raises on the Total Gym to build up the muscle on the inner side of the calf. I've started doing that. So, I'm hoping the inner muscle will resume its form, even though I'm eating at a deficit. I figure if the outer muscle did, the inner one will, too.

    Does that sound reasonable?
  • Posts: 1,088 Member
    http://www.barbellmedicine.com/potpourri/584/

    A good explanation on loosing fat while building strength.
  • Posts: 351 Member
    The gym mirrors are designed to make you look bigger ;)
  • Posts: 107 Member
    I've heard the term "newb gains" tossed around but I am walking proof that you can get stronger on a deficit but it does only seem to last so long. I've been losing weight but toning my muscle at the same time. At some point, I will find a decent bottom and start working my way back up a little to build more muscle.

    The whole "you can't build muscle while burning fat and losing weight" thing is an absolute myth. If it isn't, then I am a mythological creature, which would be cool.

    Congrats!! use it and crush it!!!
  • Posts: 107 Member
    This is so much wrong in this thread, my head it beginning to hurt.

    You cannot build muscle mass while in a deficit. That is a fact. Yes, your muscles will appear bigger, but that's because you're losing the fat around them which will make them more defined. They are not growing in size.

    The "gains" you can get are from strength. Muscle size and strength are not directly related. The efficiency of your body and how well adapted your muscles are has more to do with actual strength than pure size. Muscles work by passing electrons from your nervous system to the muscle, causing them to contract. The more electrons you can transfer (sodium and potassium have a lot to do with this) and the more efficient and dense your muscles are, the stronger you will be. Strength training will improve the efficiency of this system, and can make your muscles more dense while in a caloric deficit. You will not, as mentioned before, build muscle mass or size while in a deficit.

    Awesome!

    insert Picard Facepalm after reading some of these above except for this. Nicely put sir srs
  • Posts: 581 Member
    dbmata wrote: »

    What exactly are you injecting/dosing?

    An inch on your bicep in a week?
    Test, obviously, what else?
    Anadrol?
    Not in a week, in a few weeks - like 5?

  • Posts: 12,950 Member
    sgthaggard wrote: »
    Not in a week, in a few weeks - like 5?

    DECA works slower like that, I believe. So not anadrol, but DECA.
  • Posts: 581 Member
    dbmata wrote: »

    DECA works slower like that, I believe. So not anadrol, but DECA.
    Nope, drug-free.

  • Posts: 880 Member
    This is so much wrong in this thread, my head it beginning to hurt.

    You cannot build muscle mass while in a deficit. That is a fact. Yes, your muscles will appear bigger, but that's because you're losing the fat around them which will make them more defined. They are not growing in size.

    The "gains" you can get are from strength. Muscle size and strength are not directly related. The efficiency of your body and how well adapted your muscles are has more to do with actual strength than pure size. Muscles work by passing electrons from your nervous system to the muscle, causing them to contract. The more electrons you can transfer (sodium and potassium have a lot to do with this) and the more efficient and dense your muscles are, the stronger you will be. Strength training will improve the efficiency of this system, and can make your muscles more dense while in a caloric deficit. You will not, as mentioned before, build muscle mass or size while in a deficit.

    This post cracks me up. "Who are you going to believe? Me? Or your lying eyes and tape measure."

  • Posts: 10,750 Member
    I've heard the term "newb gains" tossed around but I am walking proof that you can get stronger on a deficit but it does only seem to last so long. I've been losing weight but toning my muscle at the same time. At some point, I will find a decent bottom and start working my way back up a little to build more muscle.

    The whole "you can't build muscle while burning fat and losing weight" thing is an absolute myth. If it isn't, then I am a mythological creature, which would be cool.

    stronger =/= muscle gain

    please read some of the links and posts in this thread.

    It isn't a myth - bar a already listed reasons you cannot build muscle in a deficit.
    -
    Sigh.
  • Posts: 19,809 Member
    This is so much wrong in this thread, my head it beginning to hurt.

    You cannot build muscle mass while in a deficit. That is a fact. Yes, your muscles will appear bigger, but that's because you're losing the fat around them which will make them more defined. They are not growing in size.

    The "gains" you can get are from strength. Muscle size and strength are not directly related. The efficiency of your body and how well adapted your muscles are has more to do with actual strength than pure size. Muscles work by passing electrons from your nervous system to the muscle, causing them to contract. The more electrons you can transfer (sodium and potassium have a lot to do with this) and the more efficient and dense your muscles are, the stronger you will be. Strength training will improve the efficiency of this system, and can make your muscles more dense while in a caloric deficit. You will not, as mentioned before, build muscle mass or size while in a deficit.

    Bolded part is just plain wrong. Your are stating it as an absolute fact - there are plenty of categories of people that can and do build some muscle mass in a deficit. Thinking everyone mistakes better muscle definition or strength gains for growth is just silly.

    Do you really believe that some magical switch gets thrown at one calorie under TDEE? Or gets thrown again at maintenance?

    How about an 18 year old, chubby, male just starting out training? You really think they need a calorie surplus and cannot use some of their stored energy (fat) to support growth?

    Everyone will have a point at which their calorie intake will not support muscle growth but there's loads of factors that determine where that point will be for the individual.
  • Posts: 12,950 Member
    sgthaggard wrote: »
    Nope, drug-free.

    Then GIGO.
  • Posts: 581 Member
    dbmata wrote: »

    Then GIGO.
    Don't know what to tell ya - I guess I'm just lucky like that. ;)

  • Posts: 12,950 Member
    sgthaggard wrote: »
    Don't know what to tell ya - I guess I'm just lucky like that. ;)

    if you are growing an inch in a month, then you've got genetics that would make you a perfect physique competitor.
  • Posts: 353 Member
    Then explain to me how I am losing weight but my shoulders are actually getting measurably larger. To increase in size is to gain mass. But I am still losing weight at a deficit. I am not talking about body building here, just some strength building that has increased the size of my shoulders. Nobody can tell me it is impossible when it has happened.
  • Posts: 41,865 Member
    what? I had a conversation with an aquaintence who commented on my weight loss as really noticable, even though she saw me about 6 weeks ago and I've only lost a kilo since then. When I mentioned that it was strange that she wasn't the first to mention I suddenly looked smaller (despite basically being on a self-induced plateau since November), she trotted out the "you must be replacing fat with muscle" theory.

    I tried to explain that this isn't how it works, and even if I was strength training, you don't build muscle on a deficit. She asked then - how come people strength training while on a diet get stronger? and I realised I didn't have an answer, just a concept that your exising muscles get... what? more efficient? stronger, if not bigger?

    Can someone explain?

    Thank you!

    You do not have to build muscle mass to make gains in strength. An untrained or otherwise noob is going to make substantial progress in RE to strength gains before they would ever have to put on mass by simply recruiting the muscle they already have and basically teaching those muscles how to push and pull more weight. A lot of initial strength gain is simply neural adaption and you're simply learning to use and recruiting what you already have.

    There are some very modest noob gains if you're new to lifting...these however aren't enough to outpace the loss of fat in most cases. In general, you cannot build any substantive muscle mass while in a calrorie deficit just as you cannot put on fat in a calorie deficit. The principle for either is the same...you need a calorie surplus to do either...because both require you to be in an anabolic state.

    You cannot build muscle or gain fat in a catabolic state...you simply cannot make something from nothing. And while your fat stores do compensate for your consumption deficit, body fat is a really *kitten* fuel and your body isn't going to use that fuel to build muscle...it's going to use that fuel towards basic functions. Running your body on body fat is like running a Ferrari on 87 octane...in other words, you're not going to function optimally and that energy isn't going to help you build muscle...it's going to maybe get you from A to B and that's it.
  • Posts: 353 Member
    cwolfman13 wrote: »

    You do not have to build muscle mass to make gains in strength. An untrained or otherwise noob is going to make substantial progress in RE to strength gains before they would ever have to put on mass by simply recruiting the muscle they already have and basically teaching those muscles how to push and pull more weight. A lot of initial strength gain is simply neural adaption and you're simply learning to use and recruiting what you already have.

    There are some very modest noob gains if you're new to lifting...these however aren't enough to outpace the loss of fat in most cases. In general, you cannot build any substantive muscle mass while in a calrorie deficit just as you cannot put on fat in a calorie deficit. The principle for either is the same...you need a calorie surplus to do either...because both require you to be in an anabolic state.

    You cannot build muscle or gain fat in a catabolic state...you simply cannot make something from nothing. And while your fat stores do compensate for your consumption deficit, body fat is a really *kitten* fuel and your body isn't going to use that fuel to build muscle...it's going to use that fuel towards basic functions. Running your body on body fat is like running a Ferrari on 87 octane...in other words, you're not going to function optimally and that energy isn't going to help you build muscle...it's going to maybe get you from A to B and that's it.

    A must better and more in-depth explanation for the concept of newb gains. This explains what I was describing in my own experience.
  • Posts: 29,136 Member
    This is so much wrong in this thread, my head it beginning to hurt.

    You cannot build muscle mass while in a deficit. That is a fact. Yes, your muscles will appear bigger, but that's because you're losing the fat around them which will make them more defined. They are not growing in size.

    The "gains" you can get are from strength. Muscle size and strength are not directly related. The efficiency of your body and how well adapted your muscles are has more to do with actual strength than pure size. Muscles work by passing electrons from your nervous system to the muscle, causing them to contract. The more electrons you can transfer (sodium and potassium have a lot to do with this) and the more efficient and dense your muscles are, the stronger you will be. Strength training will improve the efficiency of this system, and can make your muscles more dense while in a caloric deficit. You will not, as mentioned before, build muscle mass or size while in a deficit.

    I am going with this..

    my one caveat is that it is possible to do a recomp but that is eating at maintenance level and losing a small bit of body fat and replacing it with muscle...

    oh and my second caveat is that untrained beginners can have "newbie gains" but that will peter out over x amount of time....
  • Posts: 29,136 Member
    njitaliana wrote: »
    I've wondered about this, because my calf muscles on the outer sides of my calves are definitely well-formed now and I'm eating at a deficit. The muscle formation can be both seen and felt after using weights, up to 10 lbs, to do leg/knee exercises at physical therapy.

    The muscles on the inner side of my calves still haven't resumed their old form (I used a wheelchair for years), so my physical therapist suggested that I do calf raises on the Total Gym to build up the muscle on the inner side of the calf. I've started doing that. So, I'm hoping the inner muscle will resume its form, even though I'm eating at a deficit. I figure if the outer muscle did, the inner one will, too.

    Does that sound reasonable?

    newbie gains + water retention + losing body fat = what you are seeing...
  • Posts: 29,136 Member
    Then explain to me how I am losing weight but my shoulders are actually getting measurably larger. To increase in size is to gain mass. But I am still losing weight at a deficit. I am not talking about body building here, just some strength building that has increased the size of my shoulders. Nobody can tell me it is impossible when it has happened.

    newbie gains + water retention + reduction in body fat
  • Posts: 353 Member
    ndj1979 wrote: »

    newbie gains + water retention + reduction in body fat

    Yes.

  • Posts: 10,322 Member
    Meh, I've been eating at maintenance for about 9 months. Arms are up from 14 to 15 and some change. Waist is down from 33" to 30". Chest up from 38 to 42. Weight....175. That jumps around from 173-178. Probably dropped 6-7% BF if I was guessing. All in all, not that slow for a recomp in my opinion.
  • Posts: 9,532 Member
    edited March 2015
    She asked then - how come people strength training while on a diet get stronger? and I realised I didn't have an answer, just a concept that your exising muscles get... what? more efficient? stronger, if not bigger?

    Getting stronger is only partly about adding muscle - it's mostly about training the muscles you already have to work in a cooperative and timely manner.


  • Posts: 29,136 Member
    Hornsby wrote: »
    Meh, I've been eating at maintenance for about 9 months. Arms are up from 14 to 15 and some change. Waist is down from 33" to 30". Chest up from 38 to 42. Weight....175. That jumps around from 173-178. Probably dropped 6-7% BF if I was guessing. All in all, not that slow for a recomp in my opinion.

    those are pretty damn good results....I may have to give recomp a shot....

    did you recomp after finishing a bulk/cut cycle?
  • Posts: 164 Member
    Okay then....I've read about body recomp and that is what I am trying to do. Reading this thread, now I'm starting to wonder about a few things. Several people here seem pretty knowlegable and may be able to help. I am at 26% bf looking to get down to 19%. I'm 5'5" and my weight is 122 (I don't care if it goes up or down). The goal is to lose fat, get lean and build muscle. I have had good results from doing Body Beast (Lean Program). However, I never ate at a maintenance level. I was always in a deficit. Your opinions on whether I would gain muscle faster if I stopped the deficit? Would I still lose fat or would I risk gaining fat? Remember, maintenance not surplus. From the looks of some of the posters, you have this down to a science already. I'd love your input.
  • Posts: 10,322 Member
    ndj1979 wrote: »

    those are pretty damn good results....I may have to give recomp a shot....

    did you recomp after finishing a bulk/cut cycle?

    No. I lost weight the wrong way doing nothing but cardio and eating to little. That took 9 months or so. Then I started lifting. Spun my wheels without a plan for a couple months, and got serious 9 months ago.

    I have my doubts about needing a surplus to build. I used to listen to everyone and I understand the science behind it, but I just think there are some unknowns that we just don't know about yet. I am agnostic at this point on the "need a surplus to gain mass" theory.
  • Posts: 813 Member
    ndj1979 wrote: »
    newbie gains + water retention + losing body fat = what you are seeing...

    How long is one considered a newbie? I've been losing steadily for 5 months. Would newbie gains and water retention still be factors after 5 months?
This discussion has been closed.