If you're not building muscle in a deficit, you're...
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You can grow muscle on a deficit, you just will not get big muscles. I am so tired of reading the lies on this board about it. Muscles will grow, fat is reduced, people look better. If you starve yourself or don't do strength training, then yes, your muscles will not grow in a deficit but if you maintain a decent deficit, strength train and have a good diet you will. Muscle changes are not all diet related. I wish some people would read and anatomy and physiology book........
lies.
we are all liars!!! and we just want to keep the man down!!!! no success for you peons!!!!0 -
chivalryder wrote: »This is so much wrong in this thread, my head it beginning to hurt.
You cannot build muscle mass while in a deficit. That is a fact. Yes, your muscles will appear bigger, but that's because you're losing the fat around them which will make them more defined. They are not growing in size.
The "gains" you can get are from strength. Muscle size and strength are not directly related. The efficiency of your body and how well adapted your muscles are has more to do with actual strength than pure size. Muscles work by passing electrons from your nervous system to the muscle, causing them to contract. The more electrons you can transfer (sodium and potassium have a lot to do with this) and the more efficient and dense your muscles are, the stronger you will be. Strength training will improve the efficiency of this system, and can make your muscles more dense while in a caloric deficit. You will not, as mentioned before, build muscle mass or size while in a deficit.
Bolded part is just plain wrong. Your are stating it as an absolute fact - there are plenty of categories of people that can and do build some muscle mass in a deficit. Thinking everyone mistakes better muscle definition or strength gains for growth is just silly.
Do you really believe that some magical switch gets thrown at one calorie under TDEE? Or gets thrown again at maintenance?
How about an 18 year old, chubby, male just starting out training? You really think they need a calorie surplus and cannot use some of their stored energy (fat) to support growth?
Everyone will have a point at which their calorie intake will not support muscle growth but there's loads of factors that determine where that point will be for the individual.
It is possible to gain while in a deficit, even in experienced lifters. HOWEVER, there are a lot of factors that come into play... size of the deficit, genetics, training, macro breakdown etc.
I recall Brad Schoenfeld posting about this on Facebook a month or two ago, and mentioning that there were site specific increases in muscle hypertrophy in experienced lifters, but they tended to be more common in underdeveloped muscles/areas. So, in addition to all of the factors above... it is possible, but not nearly as optimal as if you were in a surplus.0 -
I wanted to add that in my case I hadn't strength trained since I was in 10th grade. I am 37 now. So I definitely had some noob gains. My gains haven't really slowed as of yet though so I don't know.
just to address this- having lost all your weight via cardio and not doing any strength training- you have a lot of room to "do work son" without having to bulk.
At some point though- you will tap out those reserves. I've been physically active and mostly fit for the large majority of my adult/child life. By the time I came back to serious lifting-I already had a good base of muscle I got almost a year of nice strength gains- with no structure training plan... and then I tapped my strength gains and I started bulking almost immediately just so I could hit strength goals.
I'd say that has quiet a bit to do with it- because at some point- all those "you won't gain unless/excepts" will run out... and in order to see real growth- you'll have to do the time- and eat the food.
And really it's not a bad thing... people get all butt hurt about it the concept- and yeah- you can see changes and moderate growth under certain conditions- but one of the big reasons we say "no you can't" is because "you'r fat is turning to muscle" myth- and " oh I lift and I got big"...
and most of them really didn't/don't. So in the bigger picture- it's essentially boiling down of the principle of the thing- and yeah- it's a semantics issue- but the amount of brain hurt about " well I just got to big" when really said persons gains were modest at best.
Hopefully that makes SOME amount of sense. Because- I'm only on cup 3 of coffee- and I'm fu4king cold as hell- so I'm probably only making half sense.0 -
benjaminhkohl wrote: »Then explain to me how I am losing weight but my shoulders are actually getting measurably larger. To increase in size is to gain mass. But I am still losing weight at a deficit. I am not talking about body building here, just some strength building that has increased the size of my shoulders. Nobody can tell me it is impossible when it has happened.
Nice newbie gains.
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LolBroScience wrote: »chivalryder wrote: »This is so much wrong in this thread, my head it beginning to hurt.
You cannot build muscle mass while in a deficit. That is a fact. Yes, your muscles will appear bigger, but that's because you're losing the fat around them which will make them more defined. They are not growing in size.
The "gains" you can get are from strength. Muscle size and strength are not directly related. The efficiency of your body and how well adapted your muscles are has more to do with actual strength than pure size. Muscles work by passing electrons from your nervous system to the muscle, causing them to contract. The more electrons you can transfer (sodium and potassium have a lot to do with this) and the more efficient and dense your muscles are, the stronger you will be. Strength training will improve the efficiency of this system, and can make your muscles more dense while in a caloric deficit. You will not, as mentioned before, build muscle mass or size while in a deficit.
Bolded part is just plain wrong. Your are stating it as an absolute fact - there are plenty of categories of people that can and do build some muscle mass in a deficit. Thinking everyone mistakes better muscle definition or strength gains for growth is just silly.
Do you really believe that some magical switch gets thrown at one calorie under TDEE? Or gets thrown again at maintenance?
How about an 18 year old, chubby, male just starting out training? You really think they need a calorie surplus and cannot use some of their stored energy (fat) to support growth?
Everyone will have a point at which their calorie intake will not support muscle growth but there's loads of factors that determine where that point will be for the individual.
It is possible to gain while in a deficit, even in experienced lifters. HOWEVER, there are a lot of factors that come into play... size of the deficit, genetics, training, macro breakdown etc.
I recall Brad Schoenfeld posting about this on Facebook a month or two ago, and mentioning that there were site specific increases in muscle hypertrophy in experienced lifters, but they tended to be more common in underdeveloped muscles/areas. So, in addition to all of the factors above... it is possible, but not nearly as optimal as if you were in a surplus.
Just to echo this, you can get visually significant hypertrophy in a smaller body part like shoulders if you stimulate them enough in a deficit.
It's probably going to be less pronounced/effective on a larger body part...
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hollydubs85 wrote: »Are your calves actually measuring larger with a measuring tape, or is your physical therapist just saying that your calf *muscles* have increased in size? If it's the latter, I'm curious how your PT could know that.
My PT, who has a doctorate in PT, uses a goniometer, a dynamometer, a measuring tape, a force gauge, balance scales, and a manual muscle tester.
I, on the other hand, can see that my calf muscles, which were atrophied and soft, now have definition and are hard to the touch, with a visible bulge when I flex my calf.
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I wanted to add that in my case I hadn't strength trained since I was in 10th grade. I am 37 now. So I definitely had some noob gains. My gains haven't really slowed as of yet though so I don't know.
just to address this- having lost all your weight via cardio and not doing any strength training- you have a lot of room to "do work son" without having to bulk.
At some point though- you will tap out those reserves. I've been physically active and mostly fit for the large majority of my adult/child life. By the time I came back to serious lifting-I already had a good base of muscle I got almost a year of nice strength gains- with no structure training plan... and then I tapped my strength gains and I started bulking almost immediately just so I could hit strength goals.
I'd say that has quiet a bit to do with it- because at some point- all those "you won't gain unless/excepts" will run out... and in order to see real growth- you'll have to do the time- and eat the food.
And really it's not a bad thing... people get all butt hurt about it the concept- and yeah- you can see changes and moderate growth under certain conditions- but one of the big reasons we say "no you can't" is because "you'r fat is turning to muscle" myth- and " oh I lift and I got big"...
and most of them really didn't/don't. So in the bigger picture- it's essentially boiling down of the principle of the thing- and yeah- it's a semantics issue- but the amount of brain hurt about " well I just got to big" when really said persons gains were modest at best.
Hopefully that makes SOME amount of sense. Because- I'm only on cup 3 of coffee- and I'm fu4king cold as hell- so I'm probably only making half sense.
I completely concur and agree with you. I have just been shocked to see how long those gains have continued to come. I thought I would "need" to bulk by now but I haven't really seen the need yet. When the progress stops, I will reevaluate, but most people seem to imply that "recomping" is super slow. I do stand by the fact that you need a surplus to make gains, but I do think the recomping and gains while in a defict get a little underplayed around here. They aren't as minimal as a lot like to think. I was just giving my experience as I don't think 9-12 months is all that slow for the gains I have gotten and the fat I have lost.0 -
I wanted to add that in my case I hadn't strength trained since I was in 10th grade. I am 37 now. So I definitely had some noob gains. My gains haven't really slowed as of yet though so I don't know.
just to address this- having lost all your weight via cardio and not doing any strength training- you have a lot of room to "do work son" without having to bulk.
At some point though- you will tap out those reserves. I've been physically active and mostly fit for the large majority of my adult/child life. By the time I came back to serious lifting-I already had a good base of muscle I got almost a year of nice strength gains- with no structure training plan... and then I tapped my strength gains and I started bulking almost immediately just so I could hit strength goals.
I'd say that has quiet a bit to do with it- because at some point- all those "you won't gain unless/excepts" will run out... and in order to see real growth- you'll have to do the time- and eat the food.
And really it's not a bad thing... people get all butt hurt about it the concept- and yeah- you can see changes and moderate growth under certain conditions- but one of the big reasons we say "no you can't" is because "you'r fat is turning to muscle" myth- and " oh I lift and I got big"...
and most of them really didn't/don't. So in the bigger picture- it's essentially boiling down of the principle of the thing- and yeah- it's a semantics issue- but the amount of brain hurt about " well I just got to big" when really said persons gains were modest at best.
Hopefully that makes SOME amount of sense. Because- I'm only on cup 3 of coffee- and I'm fu4king cold as hell- so I'm probably only making half sense.
I completely concur and agree with you. I have just been shocked to see how long those gains have continued to come. I thought I would "need" to bulk by now but I haven't really seen the need yet. When the progress stops, I will reevaluate, but most people seem to imply that "recomping" is super slow. I do stand by the fact that you need a surplus to make gains, but I do think the recomping and gains while in a defict get a little underplayed around here. They aren't as minimal as a lot like to think. I was just giving my experience as I don't think 9-12 months is all that slow for the gains I have gotten and the fat I have lost.
I also think the thing that's downplayed around here are individual differences. You may be genetically gifted in some respect we don't understand. Someone else might run the same routine as you, get everything else lined up the same way and not profit to the extent you have, if at all.
I guess I'm trying to say... we're all special snowflakes after all. Wow.
And approaches (after raw beginner - where anything works) have to be tailored to the individual.
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I wanted to add that in my case I hadn't strength trained since I was in 10th grade. I am 37 now. So I definitely had some noob gains. My gains haven't really slowed as of yet though so I don't know.
just to address this- having lost all your weight via cardio and not doing any strength training- you have a lot of room to "do work son" without having to bulk.
At some point though- you will tap out those reserves. I've been physically active and mostly fit for the large majority of my adult/child life. By the time I came back to serious lifting-I already had a good base of muscle I got almost a year of nice strength gains- with no structure training plan... and then I tapped my strength gains and I started bulking almost immediately just so I could hit strength goals.
I'd say that has quiet a bit to do with it- because at some point- all those "you won't gain unless/excepts" will run out... and in order to see real growth- you'll have to do the time- and eat the food.
And really it's not a bad thing... people get all butt hurt about it the concept- and yeah- you can see changes and moderate growth under certain conditions- but one of the big reasons we say "no you can't" is because "you'r fat is turning to muscle" myth- and " oh I lift and I got big"...
and most of them really didn't/don't. So in the bigger picture- it's essentially boiling down of the principle of the thing- and yeah- it's a semantics issue- but the amount of brain hurt about " well I just got to big" when really said persons gains were modest at best.
Hopefully that makes SOME amount of sense. Because- I'm only on cup 3 of coffee- and I'm fu4king cold as hell- so I'm probably only making half sense.
I completely concur and agree with you. I have just been shocked to see how long those gains have continued to come. I thought I would "need" to bulk by now but I haven't really seen the need yet. When the progress stops, I will reevaluate, but most people seem to imply that "recomping" is super slow. I do stand by the fact that you need a surplus to make gains, but I do think the recomping and gains while in a defict get a little underplayed around here. They aren't as minimal as a lot like to think. I was just giving my experience as I don't think 9-12 months is all that slow for the gains I have gotten and the fat I have lost.
It's probably down played so much since people swing so wildly into the "well it' because I got big/bulky/put on so much muscle"
and those of us who have been doing this for a while- have a visceral reaction to that and just going THAT"S NOT HOW THAT WORKS. LOL- we should- as a group of lifters in whole be more clear about why/how that works. You're right.
My experience with recomping is minimal-but I know it can work- but it's just slower... and honestly I wouldn't want do it at this point- a bulk/cut is more productive to me and it's going to get more immediate/clear results.0 -
In my world - Genetics
I have a natural tendency to add muscle. It's the way my body is and my body has picked that up from my dad and he picked it from his dad. My father was a light weight boxing champion and so was his dad. My dad is right now 72 years old and just last year he won 1st place in bodybuilding for the age group 55 plus.
Be it in maintenance or slight deficit I do have a tendency to add muscle. I am endurance athlete and I run. When I train for my races I will basically loose my muscle definition from biceps but I never ever loose muscle definition from my legs (ofcourse running), shoulders and triceps.
My race season ended last Sept 2014. I started lifting since then 90% lifting, slight cardio. My main goal for lifting was to build my upper body strength. I have had maintained slight deficit since then and I log everything everyday that goes in my mouth in grams exception being 10 -15 days of "Damn It!!!I want to take a break."
Since Sept 2014 @ being in slight Calorie Deficit -
I have barely lost 1 pound
I have lost 2 pant sizes. I'm now @ comfortable pant size 8.
I have lost one T-shirt size. I'm comfortably @ Large now.
I have lost 3% BF since September 2014 (I have trainer for my HIIT Camp who measures it).
My Leg Press and Deadlifts have increased but I play conservative and do not aggressively go after my #s b'coz that's not my goal. Like I said my goal is to only build enough strength to assist me during my endurance.
Last but not the least I have a 19 year old daughter who's genes have followed my grandfather's, my dad's and my genes. Naturally builds muscles on slight deficit.
Here to tell my story of how genetics can plays role.0
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