If you're not building muscle in a deficit, you're...
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Be a factor in what? Have your losses stalled, or are you making strength gains?njitaliana wrote: »
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herrspoons wrote: »Next week: Can you build a brick wall with no bricks?
And logically, I agree with you... That's what makes it the hardest for me but then I watched it happen... It makes my brain crazy...Do I believe everything I know to be true? Or do I believe the tape measure and mirror? It's tough.
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Be a factor in what? Have your losses stalled, or are you making strength gains?
I'm making strength gains and have lost 63 lbs. The other person said that my increased calf muscles are just newbie gains/water retention. But, my physical therapist said my calf muscles have indeed increased in both size and strength. So, I'm asking if 5 months in is still considered newbie gains.0 -
herrspoons wrote: »Next week: Can you build a brick wall with no bricks?
Less bricks perhaps - not no bricks.0 -
Meh, I've been eating at maintenance for about 9 months. Arms are up from 14 to 15 and some change. Waist is down from 33" to 30". Chest up from 38 to 42. Weight....175. That jumps around from 173-178. Probably dropped 6-7% BF if I was guessing. All in all, not that slow for a recomp in my opinion.
I had some really good results with my maintenance re-comp too. I think when people talk "fast" or "slow" it's really all relative. I took about 1.5 years and dropped about 5-6% BF in that time...it was a good experience for me, but it was long relative to if I would have just continued to diet down.0 -
herrspoons wrote: »Next week: Can you build a brick wall with no bricks?
I use that analogy all the time..
I think with recomp though you are slowly lose fat and then adding muscle because you fluctuate between a deficit and surplus? That is just my theory based on the fact that no one is going to have their maintenance number 100% accurate so you must go through periods of deficit and surplus...
just tossing that out there...0 -
Okay then....I've read about body recomp and that is what I am trying to do. Reading this thread, now I'm starting to wonder about a few things. Several people here seem pretty knowlegable and may be able to help. I am at 26% bf looking to get down to 19%. I'm 5'5" and my weight is 122 (I don't care if it goes up or down). The goal is to lose fat, get lean and build muscle. I have had good results from doing Body Beast (Lean Program). However, I never ate at a maintenance level. I was always in a deficit. Your opinions on whether I would gain muscle faster if I stopped the deficit? Would I still lose fat or would I risk gaining fat? Remember, maintenance not surplus. From the looks of some of the posters, you have this down to a science already. I'd love your input.
sij might disagree with me...
but I would suggest cutting your body fat down to 19% and then doing a bulk where you look to gain .5 pounds per week.
I would also suggest looking into a structured program like strong lifts, new rules of lifting for woman, or starting strength.
I would also suggest venturing over to the gaining forum and reading the sticky there on bulking...
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herrspoons wrote: »Next week: Can you build a brick wall with no bricks?
I use that analogy all the time..
I think with recomp though you are slowly lose fat and then adding muscle because you fluctuate between a deficit and surplus? That is just my theory based on the fact that no one is going to have their maintenance number 100% accurate so you must go through periods of deficit and surplus...
just tossing that out there...
And that's the logic I go with as well. I eat more on the days I lift, eat at a slight deficit on the days I don't lift. I don't know if does anything, but I am getting results. April 9 will be my 2 year anniversary and a crap ton of pics will follow for proof although a few people here follow me on Instagram and get free previews...lol
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njitaliana wrote: »Be a factor in what? Have your losses stalled, or are you making strength gains?
I'm making strength gains and have lost 63 lbs. The other person said that my increased calf muscles are just newbie gains/water retention. But, my physical therapist said my calf muscles have indeed increased in both size and strength. So, I'm asking if 5 months in is still considered newbie gains.
your calfs have increased some due to newbie gains...I am not sure how long they last but my guess would be if you are 5 months in that you are at the outer limits of those gains and as you continue to eat in a deficit you may lose some of those gains....
I do not have any literature, and nor have I seen a study, that looked at how long newbie gains last....0 -
njitaliana wrote: »Be a factor in what? Have your losses stalled, or are you making strength gains?
I'm making strength gains and have lost 63 lbs. The other person said that my increased calf muscles are just newbie gains/water retention. But, my physical therapist said my calf muscles have indeed increased in both size and strength. So, I'm asking if 5 months in is still considered newbie gains.
Are your calves actually measuring larger with a measuring tape, or is your physical therapist just saying that your calf *muscles* have increased in size? If it's the latter, I'm curious how your PT could know that.0 -
njitaliana wrote: »Be a factor in what? Have your losses stalled, or are you making strength gains?
I'm making strength gains and have lost 63 lbs. The other person said that my increased calf muscles are just newbie gains/water retention. But, my physical therapist said my calf muscles have indeed increased in both size and strength. So, I'm asking if 5 months in is still considered newbie gains.
your calfs have increased some due to newbie gains...I am not sure how long they last but my guess would be if you are 5 months in that you are at the outer limits of those gains and as you continue to eat in a deficit you may lose some of those gains....
I do not have any literature, and nor have I seen a study, that looked at how long newbie gains last....
This is what I'm thinking as well. And asking around about newbie gains, it seems like no one knows. And you can make strength gains without putting on muscle mass. Regardless, your calves likely look much better than 5 months ago, so keep at it!0 -
I wanted to add that in my case I hadn't strength trained since I was in 10th grade. I am 37 now. So I definitely had some noob gains. My gains haven't really slowed as of yet though so I don't know.0
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herrspoons wrote: »Next week: Can you build a brick wall with no bricks?
I use that analogy all the time..
I think with recomp though you are slowly lose fat and then adding muscle because you fluctuate between a deficit and surplus? That is just my theory based on the fact that no one is going to have their maintenance number 100% accurate so you must go through periods of deficit and surplus...
just tossing that out there...
Even if you are nailing your maintenance level perfectly, your body will be at surpluses and deficits at various parts of the day/night because we eat in discrete chunks. So right before a meal you'll be running at a small deficit, right after a meal you'll be running at a slight surplus.0 -
herrspoons wrote: »Next week: Can you build a brick wall with no bricks?
I use that analogy all the time..
I think with recomp though you are slowly lose fat and then adding muscle because you fluctuate between a deficit and surplus? That is just my theory based on the fact that no one is going to have their maintenance number 100% accurate so you must go through periods of deficit and surplus...
just tossing that out there...
Even if you are nailing your maintenance level perfectly, your body will be at surpluses and deficits at various parts of the day/night because we eat in discrete chunks. So right before a meal you'll be running at a small deficit, right after a meal you'll be running at a slight surplus.
Using that logic, wouldn't a person who eats fewer, higher calorie meals at maintenance averaged levels have a better chance of adding muscle while at maintenance? If they add say 1%, and then cut the next day and lost .5% but .4% of that is fat, they would come out on the positive in mass gains? Just a thought. (Percentages are just numbers, they don't reflect reality and are just there to make the point).
ETA: although after reading it I don't know if I am clear. It's clear to me, but that doesn't mean much.0 -
I think I saw Stroutman mention that his experiences with clients suggest newb gains can be capitalised upon for up to a year.0
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So much "You will" "you cannot" "it doesn't". the level of bro-science here is astounding sometimes.
None of this is a yes/no answer, it so much depends on where you are starting from, what exactly you are doing, how its actually getting done, what has been done before, what is your genetic capability...
Crazy crazy bro-science.0 -
joepratt503 wrote: »So much "You will" "you cannot" "it doesn't". the level of bro-science here is astounding sometimes.
None of this is a yes/no answer, it so much depends on where you are starting from, what exactly you are doing, how its actually getting done, what has been done before, what is your genetic capability...
Crazy crazy bro-science.
care to list some examples of what you are viewing as "broscience"....?0 -
joepratt503 wrote: »So much "You will" "you cannot" "it doesn't". the level of bro-science here is astounding sometimes.
None of this is a yes/no answer, it so much depends on where you are starting from, what exactly you are doing, how its actually getting done, what has been done before, what is your genetic capability...
Crazy crazy bro-science.
care to list some examples of what you are viewing as "broscience"....?
Figured someone would come in and mess up an interesting conversation. If you have an opinion or some facts for us, please share it. Childish rant not needed.0 -
herrspoons wrote: »Next week: Can you build a brick wall with no bricks?
I use that analogy all the time..
I think with recomp though you are slowly lose fat and then adding muscle because you fluctuate between a deficit and surplus? That is just my theory based on the fact that no one is going to have their maintenance number 100% accurate so you must go through periods of deficit and surplus...
just tossing that out there...
Even if you are nailing your maintenance level perfectly, your body will be at surpluses and deficits at various parts of the day/night because we eat in discrete chunks. So right before a meal you'll be running at a small deficit, right after a meal you'll be running at a slight surplus.
Using that logic, wouldn't a person who eats fewer, higher calorie meals at maintenance averaged levels have a better chance of adding muscle while at maintenance? If they add say 1%, and then cut the next day and lost .5% but .4% of that is fat, they would come out on the positive in mass gains? Just a thought. (Percentages are just numbers, they don't reflect reality and are just there to make the point).
I don't know, but I suspect that's correct. Whether the difference is easily measurable is another question, though.ETA: although after reading it I don't know if I am clear. It's clear to me, but that doesn't mean much.
:drinker:
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None of the detractors mentioned anything about my experience (see page one - about 1/2 way down). Well, maybe they did because one of the posts said this thread made their head hurt...but he didn't call me out by name :-)
So I have to ask:
How did I go from Fatty McFatty, couch potato, to being able to do chin ups, push ups, insanity, etc. all while running a 1-pound per week deficit and losing 75 pounds over 18 months all while working out, hard, every other day?
As I mentioned in my prior thread, I agree you are not going to build big, well-defined muscle mass (like you do with bulking and cutting)...but there is no way that you can tell me that I did not gain muscle and that the muscle "I thought I gained" was already there but hidden in my chubby gut, chest, and arms, and that I just made my existing fat-hidden muscles stronger, but in no way bigger, with my deficit workouts.
Maybe a better way for me to phrase it is to say:
I got much stronger without gaining any muscle because my muscles knew I was a newb...and everyone knows that newb muscles don't gain mass.
I need to find another unicorn. I need a rainbow.0 -
Go_Mizzou99 wrote: »None of the detractors mentioned anything about my experience (see page one - about 1/2 way down). Well, maybe they did because one of the posts said this thread made their head hurt...but he didn't call me out by name :-)
So I have to ask:
How did I go from Fatty McFatty, couch potato, to being able to do chin ups, push ups, insanity, etc. all while running a 1-pound per week deficit and losing 75 pounds over 18 months all while working out, hard, every other day?
As I mentioned in my prior thread, I agree you are not going to build big, well-defined muscle mass (like you do with bulking and cutting)...but there is no way that you can tell me that I did not gain muscle and that the muscle "I thought I gained" was already there but hidden in my chubby gut, chest, and arms, and that I just made my existing fat-hidden muscles stronger, but in no way bigger, with my deficit workouts.
Maybe a better way for me to phrase it is to say:
I got much stronger without gaining any muscle because my muscles knew I was a newb...and everyone knows that newb muscles don't gain mass.
I need to find another unicorn. I need a rainbow.
I think your results don't sound unreasonable which is why you aren't getting any resistance. You lifted heavy and had noob gains in the beginning which were hidden underneath the fat. Then you burned fat while building a little bit more maybe as you kept going which started to reveal your now a bit larger, a bit harder and conditioned muscles. Now eat at maintenance for a few months and take measurements along the way to see what happens. That would be the real test.
All of your achievements you listed are related to strength, not mass.0 -
herrspoons wrote: »Next week: Can you build a brick wall with no bricks?
I use that analogy all the time..
I think with recomp though you are slowly lose fat and then adding muscle because you fluctuate between a deficit and surplus? That is just my theory based on the fact that no one is going to have their maintenance number 100% accurate so you must go through periods of deficit and surplus...
just tossing that out there...
Agree - that's actually what happens not just day to day but also within the day with everyone unless they are constantly grazing and in a huge surplus.
You eat - anabolic. Finished digesting your last meal - catabolic (simplistic view i know!). That seems to get lost somewhere and some people assume a calorie deficit (no matter how small???) means you are in a catabolic state all the time.
So in reality the calorie balance alters the proportion of time you are in either state it doesn't mean people are one thing or the other 24x7.
A lot of the uneven eating protocols (Alan Aragon, Brad Schoenfeld etc.) work on these principles. I happen to eat in an uneven pattern (for other reasons) but even when in a weekly deficit I still had at least five days a week at maintenance - with plenty of protein "bricks" to build my wall (slowly).
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herrspoons wrote: »Next week: Can you build a brick wall with no bricks?
I use that analogy all the time..
I think with recomp though you are slowly lose fat and then adding muscle because you fluctuate between a deficit and surplus? That is just my theory based on the fact that no one is going to have their maintenance number 100% accurate so you must go through periods of deficit and surplus...
just tossing that out there...
Even if you are nailing your maintenance level perfectly, your body will be at surpluses and deficits at various parts of the day/night because we eat in discrete chunks. So right before a meal you'll be running at a small deficit, right after a meal you'll be running at a slight surplus.
Using that logic, wouldn't a person who eats fewer, higher calorie meals at maintenance averaged levels have a better chance of adding muscle while at maintenance? If they add say 1%, and then cut the next day and lost .5% but .4% of that is fat, they would come out on the positive in mass gains? Just a thought. (Percentages are just numbers, they don't reflect reality and are just there to make the point).
I don't know, but I suspect that's correct. Whether the difference is easily measurable is another question, though.ETA: although after reading it I don't know if I am clear. It's clear to me, but that doesn't mean much.
:drinker:
Sounds like a book I need to write to capitalize on all the BS! I'm calling Dr. Oz.
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Go_Mizzou99 wrote: »None of the detractors mentioned anything about my experience (see page one - about 1/2 way down). Well, maybe they did because one of the posts said this thread made their head hurt...but he didn't call me out by name :-)
So I have to ask:
How did I go from Fatty McFatty, couch potato, to being able to do chin ups, push ups, insanity, etc. all while running a 1-pound per week deficit and losing 75 pounds over 18 months all while working out, hard, every other day?
As I mentioned in my prior thread, I agree you are not going to build big, well-defined muscle mass (like you do with bulking and cutting)...but there is no way that you can tell me that I did not gain muscle and that the muscle "I thought I gained" was already there but hidden in my chubby gut, chest, and arms, and that I just made my existing fat-hidden muscles stronger, but in no way bigger, with my deficit workouts.
Maybe a better way for me to phrase it is to say:
I got much stronger without gaining any muscle because my muscles knew I was a newb...and everyone knows that newb muscles don't gain mass.
I need to find another unicorn. I need a rainbow.
you trained your muscles to be more "productive" AKA lift more with the same amount of muscle mass...
strength gains do not equal muscle gains...
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herrspoons wrote: »Next week: Can you build a brick wall with no bricks?
I use that analogy all the time..
I think with recomp though you are slowly lose fat and then adding muscle because you fluctuate between a deficit and surplus? That is just my theory based on the fact that no one is going to have their maintenance number 100% accurate so you must go through periods of deficit and surplus...
just tossing that out there...
Agree - that's actually what happens not just day to day but also within the day with everyone unless they are constantly grazing and in a huge surplus.
You eat - anabolic. Finished digesting your last meal - catabolic (simplistic view i know!). That seems to get lost somewhere and some people assume a calorie deficit (no matter how small???) means you are in a catabolic state all the time.
So in reality the calorie balance alters the proportion of time you are in either state it doesn't mean people are one thing or the other 24x7.
A lot of the uneven eating protocols (Alan Aragon, Brad Schoenfeld etc.) work on these principles. I happen to eat in an uneven pattern (for other reasons) but even when in a weekly deficit I still had at least five days a week at maintenance - with plenty of protein "bricks" to build my wall (slowly).
uneven eating protocol ...so is that like loading up most of your calories around post workout out time and having less around non-workout time...< probably a simplistic way of putting it but just curious..
I know when I did IF they recommended largest meal always being post-workout..which I still follow as I workout in afternoon and my largest meal is always dinner...0 -
joepratt503 wrote: »So much "You will" "you cannot" "it doesn't". the level of bro-science here is astounding sometimes.
None of this is a yes/no answer, it so much depends on where you are starting from, what exactly you are doing, how its actually getting done, what has been done before, what is your genetic capability...
Crazy crazy bro-science.
care to list some examples of what you are viewing as "broscience"....?
Figured someone would come in and mess up an interesting conversation. If you have an opinion or some facts for us, please share it. Childish rant not needed.
there is always one...0 -
Go_Mizzou99 wrote: »None of the detractors mentioned anything about my experience (see page one - about 1/2 way down). Well, maybe they did because one of the posts said this thread made their head hurt...but he didn't call me out by name :-)
So I have to ask:
How did I go from Fatty McFatty, couch potato, to being able to do chin ups, push ups, insanity, etc. all while running a 1-pound per week deficit and losing 75 pounds over 18 months all while working out, hard, every other day?
As I mentioned in my prior thread, I agree you are not going to build big, well-defined muscle mass (like you do with bulking and cutting)...but there is no way that you can tell me that I did not gain muscle and that the muscle "I thought I gained" was already there but hidden in my chubby gut, chest, and arms, and that I just made my existing fat-hidden muscles stronger, but in no way bigger, with my deficit workouts.
Maybe a better way for me to phrase it is to say:
I got much stronger without gaining any muscle because my muscles knew I was a newb...and everyone knows that newb muscles don't gain mass.
I need to find another unicorn. I need a rainbow.
you trained your muscles to be more "productive" AKA lift more with the same amount of muscle mass...
strength gains do not equal muscle gains...
I think I am having one of those "Aha" moments.
Using the correct terminology is key....strength gain of existing muscles vs. gained muscle mass is critical to this discussion.0 -
I'd agree with staying in deficit and reducing BF% first - much easier to lose fat than gain muscle. IMHO opinion you are too far away from your goals of "getting lean and losing fat" to recomp.Okay then....I've read about body recomp and that is what I am trying to do. Reading this thread, now I'm starting to wonder about a few things. Several people here seem pretty knowlegable and may be able to help. I am at 26% bf looking to get down to 19%. I'm 5'5" and my weight is 122 (I don't care if it goes up or down). The goal is to lose fat, get lean and build muscle. I have had good results from doing Body Beast (Lean Program). However, I never ate at a maintenance level. I was always in a deficit. Your opinions on whether I would gain muscle faster if I stopped the deficit? Would I still lose fat or would I risk gaining fat? Remember, maintenance not surplus. From the looks of some of the posters, you have this down to a science already. I'd love your input.
sij might disagree with me...
but I would suggest cutting your body fat down to 19% and then doing a bulk where you look to gain .5 pounds per week.
I would also suggest looking into a structured program like strong lifts, new rules of lifting for woman, or starting strength.
I would also suggest venturing over to the gaining forum and reading the sticky there on bulking...
Certainly a good lifting program, adequate protein and moderate deficit will help retain maximum amount of muscle while losing fat. If you get some newby gains then look at it as a bonus.
(I recomp because I'm very close to where I want to be, I'm focused on performance not aesthetics and after 40 years of training no matter what I do muscle gain will be slow.)
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Thank you, gentlemen for your honest feedback. I am glad I deferred to those with greater knowledge and experience. And I will definitely take a peek at the gaining forum as well. Thanks again. 0
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