steroid use ...
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Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »AllanMisner wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »
What about conversations related to Testosterone Replacement Therapy?
That is legal as prescribed by a doctor. Prescribed HGH is also an interesting and valid topic, IMO. So far, I don’t think anyone has pushed illegal use. Only acknowledged that it appears to work and hasn’t been studied. I think the increased legal usage of these substances is going to yield a good bit of data (some great, some bad).
I have a buddy that works for a different Anti-Aging center than where I go and they do prescribe HGH. What's interesting is that it's a cash-only business, no insurance is accepted. But it is a big business here in Vegas, it's not like some underground behind-the-scenes business.
It's turning into a big business everywhere. In Seattle there must be a couple of dozen clinics (legally) administering it.0 -
Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »AllanMisner wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »
What about conversations related to Testosterone Replacement Therapy?
That is legal as prescribed by a doctor. Prescribed HGH is also an interesting and valid topic, IMO. So far, I don’t think anyone has pushed illegal use. Only acknowledged that it appears to work and hasn’t been studied. I think the increased legal usage of these substances is going to yield a good bit of data (some great, some bad).
I have a buddy that works for a different Anti-Aging center than where I go and they do prescribe HGH. What's interesting is that it's a cash-only business, no insurance is accepted. But it is a big business here in Vegas, it's not like some underground behind-the-scenes business.
I feel like a lot of random places go cash only because they know they will make more money. My boyfriend was in Hawaii with his family, and his brother cut himself pretty badly while snorkling and need to go to the ER for stitches (I do think it was one of those stand alone ERs not a full hospital). Cash only. I'm guess that due to the transient population (tourist trap), it's harder to collect unless you do it up front. Seems like Vegas would be similar.
And OP, you won't be in trouble, and I think it's worth asking about. It's much easier to have a logical discussion with your son about everything as opposed to just screaming "it's horrible and you'll be grounded if you use steroids". That's not going to get through to him. I think you were right to ask for opinions, and you can use that to provide the best counsel.0 -
Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »AllanMisner wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »
What about conversations related to Testosterone Replacement Therapy?
That is legal as prescribed by a doctor. Prescribed HGH is also an interesting and valid topic, IMO. So far, I don’t think anyone has pushed illegal use. Only acknowledged that it appears to work and hasn’t been studied. I think the increased legal usage of these substances is going to yield a good bit of data (some great, some bad).
I have a buddy that works for a different Anti-Aging center than where I go and they do prescribe HGH. What's interesting is that it's a cash-only business, no insurance is accepted. But it is a big business here in Vegas, it's not like some underground behind-the-scenes business.
It's turning into a big business everywhere. In Seattle there must be a couple of dozen clinics (legally) administering it.
I would think the abundance of these types of shops popping up kinda pseudo proves that there is more and more science coming out that shows it really has very little negative impact on the body if done correctly, no?0 -
Bumping to read later
I also have a 17 year old boy that is working out extremely hard and has been bulking for a few months now. I would like to be better informed before we have a big discussion.
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Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »AllanMisner wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »
What about conversations related to Testosterone Replacement Therapy?
That is legal as prescribed by a doctor. Prescribed HGH is also an interesting and valid topic, IMO. So far, I don’t think anyone has pushed illegal use. Only acknowledged that it appears to work and hasn’t been studied. I think the increased legal usage of these substances is going to yield a good bit of data (some great, some bad).
I have a buddy that works for a different Anti-Aging center than where I go and they do prescribe HGH. What's interesting is that it's a cash-only business, no insurance is accepted. But it is a big business here in Vegas, it's not like some underground behind-the-scenes business.
It's turning into a big business everywhere. In Seattle there must be a couple of dozen clinics (legally) administering it.
I would think the abundance of these types of shops popping up kinda pseudo proves that there is more and more science coming out that shows it really has very little negative impact on the body if done correctly, no?
I know there are some competitors who compete as natural and go to a hormone therapy clinic fairly regularly for testosterone replacement therapy. There is a doctor on staff, so the injections are legal and it allow them to compete as natural.0 -
Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »AllanMisner wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »
What about conversations related to Testosterone Replacement Therapy?
That is legal as prescribed by a doctor. Prescribed HGH is also an interesting and valid topic, IMO. So far, I don’t think anyone has pushed illegal use. Only acknowledged that it appears to work and hasn’t been studied. I think the increased legal usage of these substances is going to yield a good bit of data (some great, some bad).
I have a buddy that works for a different Anti-Aging center than where I go and they do prescribe HGH. What's interesting is that it's a cash-only business, no insurance is accepted. But it is a big business here in Vegas, it's not like some underground behind-the-scenes business.
It's turning into a big business everywhere. In Seattle there must be a couple of dozen clinics (legally) administering it.
I would think the abundance of these types of shops popping up kinda pseudo proves that there is more and more science coming out that shows it really has very little negative impact on the body if done correctly, no?
I think that's what some of the evidence out there suggests too. How can we legally sell alcohol and cigarettes but we're concerned about steroid usage when it's used as a means to improve one's self?0 -
Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »AllanMisner wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »
What about conversations related to Testosterone Replacement Therapy?
That is legal as prescribed by a doctor. Prescribed HGH is also an interesting and valid topic, IMO. So far, I don’t think anyone has pushed illegal use. Only acknowledged that it appears to work and hasn’t been studied. I think the increased legal usage of these substances is going to yield a good bit of data (some great, some bad).
I have a buddy that works for a different Anti-Aging center than where I go and they do prescribe HGH. What's interesting is that it's a cash-only business, no insurance is accepted. But it is a big business here in Vegas, it's not like some underground behind-the-scenes business.
It's turning into a big business everywhere. In Seattle there must be a couple of dozen clinics (legally) administering it.
I would think the abundance of these types of shops popping up kinda pseudo proves that there is more and more science coming out that shows it really has very little negative impact on the body if done correctly, no?
I think that's what some of the evidence out there suggests too. How can we legally sell alcohol and cigarettes but we're concerned about steroid usage when it's used as a means to improve one's self?
As with alcohol or anything really, there are save dosages I would think. Otherwise, how could they give it to people on a medical basis. Just because it is making one person "normal" and another person "enhanced", how would that effect the safeness of the drug. It's either safe or not.
Since most of us here believe in moderation....I would think most would understand that.
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And OP, you won't be in trouble, and I think it's worth asking about. It's much easier to have a logical discussion with your son about everything as opposed to just screaming "it's horrible and you'll be grounded if you use steroids". That's not going to get through to him. I think you were right to ask for opinions, and you can use that to provide the best counsel. [/quote]
Thanks ...
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Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »
yeah, I have my doc working with me on it, but it feels like I'm having to negotiate with him on certain things, like my free t is 5.4 pg/mL, and my total t is 449 ng/dL, if free t is supposed to be between 2-4% of total, I'm not there. however, he doesn't have me on an AI, or hcg, so at worst I'll have to go black market for that.
Yeah, I feel your pain. My first doc had me on a bi-weekly dosage; the life of Test is approx 8-days, so it should be obvious that bi-weekly dosage is not effective; I was always symptomatic again before my 2nd shot. Then once I found the 2nd doctor who had me on a weekly dosage I still felt symptomatic and after some research I found that when T is elevated Estrogen also elevates and can cause you to feel symptoms of hypogonadism. I went to him and he refused to have my E checked. Doctor 3 which is actually at a clinic specific for this issue agree with me and had everything checked, my E was 72. I've been on Test, Anastrozol, and HCG ever since.
When E2 was that high, how high was your total trip and free t?0 -
Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »AllanMisner wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »
What about conversations related to Testosterone Replacement Therapy?
That is legal as prescribed by a doctor. Prescribed HGH is also an interesting and valid topic, IMO. So far, I don’t think anyone has pushed illegal use. Only acknowledged that it appears to work and hasn’t been studied. I think the increased legal usage of these substances is going to yield a good bit of data (some great, some bad).
I have a buddy that works for a different Anti-Aging center than where I go and they do prescribe HGH. What's interesting is that it's a cash-only business, no insurance is accepted. But it is a big business here in Vegas, it's not like some underground behind-the-scenes business.
What ballpark cost does that even run in? I was thinking of checking an anti-aging center locally for hgh and thyroid discussion, but won't until I know what the ballpark figure is. My test-c is only $10 a month on my insurance.0 -
Okay so just a hypothetic. A receiver goes for a pass in the end zone. He totally beats the corner back and instead of giving up the winning touchdown, he grabs the receiver for a penalty. Obviously against the rules. The last play of the game ends up incomplete. Did the other team get cheated out of the win because of the penalty? Or was it great strategic play by the cornerback?3dogsrunning wrote: »
I think that it's subjective to a point. Tiger Woods got Lasik. Depth perception is a big factor in golf. So by getting Lasik, did he attain an unfair advantage over his peers? Had he just kept the eyesight he had, would he have attained the status as a pro as he has now?
I think they're assuming competitions. If you are claiming you are clean to compete against other people who are, it would be cheating. If you are using them because you want to be bigger and you just workout for you, eh, that's your business.How am I cheating anyone? I train for myself, compete in no sports, not governed by any bodies. You cant say hey you're bigger than me you're cheating. Cheating what?
And I'm assuming (based on what they are), the side effects would be more severe in younger teens since they can inhibit development. Of course, you know what they say about assumptions...
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I had LASIK done. It gave me normal eyesight. No different than glasses. Would glasses also be cheating?
I do believe it is still cheating in competition even if "everyone" is doing it so long as the rules are there against it and there is a possibility of being penalized .
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However someone's physical being (eyes) was surgically enhanced to do it. Even wearing corrective glasses changes depth perception vs what the natural eye sees.3dogsrunning wrote: »3dogsrunning wrote: »
I think that it's subjective to a point. Tiger Woods got Lasik. Depth perception is a big factor in golf. So by getting Lasik, did he attain an unfair advantage over his peers? Had he just kept the eyesight he had, would he have attained the status as a pro as he has now?
I think they're assuming competitions. If you are claiming you are clean to compete against other people who are, it would be cheating. If you are using them because you want to be bigger and you just workout for you, eh, that's your business.How am I cheating anyone? I train for myself, compete in no sports, not governed by any bodies. You cant say hey you're bigger than me you're cheating. Cheating what?
And I'm assuming (based on what they are), the side effects would be more severe in younger teens since they can inhibit development. Of course, you know what they say about assumptions...
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I had LASIK done. It gave me normal eyesight. No different than glasses. Would glasses also be cheating?
I do believe it is still cheating in competition even if "everyone" is doing it so long as the rules are there against it and there is a possibility of being penalized .
Some times people get Lasik and their vision is better than normal (20-15 or so). Since it is putting that person at higher than their potential, would that be cheating?
It is still within the realm of normal vision.
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Its much more prevalent than I expected among the general gym going public, especially Clenbuterol, Anavar etc.
Worst part is its cheaply bought online alot of the time, no idea on quality, dosage, and side effects.0 -
Lol, I've met Bonds and personally he was really nice and signed a hat for me. He was cool to all the GIANTS fans.If I were a young athlete, one of my reasons for not using might be that eventually I'll be elite enough to be regulated/tested/caught/penalized for using it. Not the best reason to avoid using steroids, of course, but certainly something to consider ...
Those tests are easy to avoid, and really... the only ones getting "caught" are the ones being turned in by their team mates or coaching staff. Generally because they're world class a-holes, like barry bonds.
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Lol, I've met Bonds and personally he was really nice and signed a hat for me. He was cool to all the GIANTS fans.If I were a young athlete, one of my reasons for not using might be that eventually I'll be elite enough to be regulated/tested/caught/penalized for using it. Not the best reason to avoid using steroids, of course, but certainly something to consider ...
Those tests are easy to avoid, and really... the only ones getting "caught" are the ones being turned in by their team mates or coaching staff. Generally because they're world class a-holes, like barry bonds.
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cuz Gigantes fans don't have high enough standards.
my wife is a giants fan, I'm a dodgers fan. It gets frosty.
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I would then ask you, that the if competitors place better than you, will you suspect if they are doing PED's or not if you gave it everything you had? Unless EVERYONE is being tested (which isn't likely), if you came in 20th, guys 7th through could be using and you really wouldn't know. I doubt it happens in local races, but the more prestigious ones, I wouldn't doubt it.3dogsrunning wrote: »3dogsrunning wrote: »
I think that it's subjective to a point. Tiger Woods got Lasik. Depth perception is a big factor in golf. So by getting Lasik, did he attain an unfair advantage over his peers? Had he just kept the eyesight he had, would he have attained the status as a pro as he has now?
I think they're assuming competitions. If you are claiming you are clean to compete against other people who are, it would be cheating. If you are using them because you want to be bigger and you just workout for you, eh, that's your business.How am I cheating anyone? I train for myself, compete in no sports, not governed by any bodies. You cant say hey you're bigger than me you're cheating. Cheating what?
And I'm assuming (based on what they are), the side effects would be more severe in younger teens since they can inhibit development. Of course, you know what they say about assumptions...
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I had LASIK done. It gave me normal eyesight. No different than glasses. Would glasses also be cheating?
I do believe it is still cheating in competition even if "everyone" is doing it so long as the rules are there against it and there is a possibility of being penalized .
Some times people get Lasik and their vision is better than normal (20-15 or so). Since it is putting that person at higher than their potential, would that be cheating?
It is still within the realm of normal vision.
Then you get into "what is normal?". A 40 year old male may take steroids which will get him back to his testosterone levels of when he was 25? Would that be normal? Wouldn't glasses just be "taking you back" to a younger age with your eyesight?
I'm just playing devil's advocate here.
Good point. Guys with low testosterone are getting put on HRT to get their testosterone up to "normal" levels. I am seeing guys in the gym who are getting put on doctor supervised HRT and they are making significant gains, yet their hormone levels are still in "normal" ranges. Since their hormone levels are now in "normal" ranges, are they cheating?
If we are talking competition, then yes. From my traithlon-based perspective, you can NOT get a therapeutic use exception (TUE) for simply having "low-T". It is nearly impossible to get one, in fact, for supplemental testosterone. Yet many amateurs get the prescriptions for it and continue on competing because they don't test amateurs. That *is* cheating.
If you are doing this for your own personal gain, and not competing in anything, then I couldn't care less. However if you are racing against me and I somehow find out you are using something, there will be trouble.
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Or that they were previous users, got to their highest potential and now compete "naturally". Not the same as being a natural to begin with.I am a competitive bodybuilder. I purposefully compete in natural shows because they do polygraphs and drug tests which discourage people from using and it creates a more level playing field. In competitions that are not tested many/most competitors use steroids. That is their level playing field.
Beyond competing it's all risk versus reward. If they want to use them to develop size or strength they accept responsibility for the fact that there are risks and what they are doing is probably illegal. That's on them. I personally know many people who have used or currently use steroids for physique or performance enhancement.
Even the all natural shows still have plenty of ped usage though because the steroid makers are usually ahead of the curve.
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Or that they were previous users, got to their highest potential and now compete "naturally". Not the same as being a natural to begin with.I am a competitive bodybuilder. I purposefully compete in natural shows because they do polygraphs and drug tests which discourage people from using and it creates a more level playing field. In competitions that are not tested many/most competitors use steroids. That is their level playing field.
Beyond competing it's all risk versus reward. If they want to use them to develop size or strength they accept responsibility for the fact that there are risks and what they are doing is probably illegal. That's on them. I personally know many people who have used or currently use steroids for physique or performance enhancement.
Even the all natural shows still have plenty of ped usage though because the steroid makers are usually ahead of the curve.
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Very true. Enough time off, and the right hair cut, and you can avoid detection, generally.0 -
Okay so just a hypothetic. A receiver goes for a pass in the end zone. He totally beats the corner back and instead of giving up the winning touchdown, he grabs the receiver for a penalty. Obviously against the rules. The last play of the game ends up incomplete. Did the other team get cheated out of the win because of the penalty? Or was it great strategic play by the cornerback?3dogsrunning wrote: »
I think that it's subjective to a point. Tiger Woods got Lasik. Depth perception is a big factor in golf. So by getting Lasik, did he attain an unfair advantage over his peers? Had he just kept the eyesight he had, would he have attained the status as a pro as he has now?
I think they're assuming competitions. If you are claiming you are clean to compete against other people who are, it would be cheating. If you are using them because you want to be bigger and you just workout for you, eh, that's your business.How am I cheating anyone? I train for myself, compete in no sports, not governed by any bodies. You cant say hey you're bigger than me you're cheating. Cheating what?
And I'm assuming (based on what they are), the side effects would be more severe in younger teens since they can inhibit development. Of course, you know what they say about assumptions...
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I had LASIK done. It gave me normal eyesight. No different than glasses. Would glasses also be cheating?
I do believe it is still cheating in competition even if "everyone" is doing it so long as the rules are there against it and there is a possibility of being penalized .
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I have no idea. I know nothing of football.
I am also aware that nothing is black and white. But I stand by my statement. As a general rule, as long as it is against the rules and people are subject to penalties for it it is cheating. Are there situations where lines are blurred. Yes. But for someone who is bending or breaking the rules to gain an advantage I consider it cheating.
I assume that is what you are getting at.
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People compete in sports today that can have catastrophic results. Boxing, luge, skeleton, parkour, skydiving, NASCAR, etc. Even without drugs, these sports have resulted in deaths.The issue with simply saying "have at it" and let everyone use what they want, is that eventually the drug use will get pushed too far and people will die. Sure these things can be used in a safe manner, but if everyone uses it, then the risks of bad side effects for one person could be catastrophic.
See what happened to Tom Simpson for an example of what happens when doping becomes deadly, because the doping itself becomes the arms race.
Again I'm not condoning PED use, but to think that everyone who competes at a pro level and for millions of dollars is natural? It'll never happen. And really the fans of these sports don't really care that much. They get entertained. Look at Major League baseball after the strike. Baseball got SO EXCITING when McGwire and Sosa were vying for the homerun record. Even people who weren't baseball fans were watching.
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No. I competed as a natural in natural contests and you know the guys who do use and compete in the same contest. They usually won.3dogsrunning wrote: »3dogsrunning wrote: »AllanMisner wrote: »3dogsrunning wrote: »In regards to the bodybuilding, there aren't any natural comps here so I am not familiar but is there a difference in the look the judges prefer? I mean, are you going to see people/winners who have the "freak" look (using a word that has been used here) or do you still see a smaller, more natural look even though steroids may be used?
I would think that if the more natural look is preferred then it would at least be possible to compete against those who use steroids whereas in the other organizations, it is pretty much impossible to level up without taking something.
Just wondering.
Yes, there are natural competitions, but you can look at the competitors and it’s like looking a A&F model next to the Hulk. Fans want to see Hulks, not boys. The women’s competition has split into multiple sets (bodybuilders, fitness models, etc.) because women were beginning to not look like women.
I know there are natural competitions. I am asking a differene in the looks between a natural competition and the other federations.
Difference in look is usually size, leanness (how grainy their muscles look), and fullness of the muscle bellies.
Thanks. My question really was, is it easier to compete as a natural in a natural show even with people who use?
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However someone's physical being (eyes) was surgically enhanced to do it. Even wearing corrective glasses changes depth perception vs what the natural eye sees.3dogsrunning wrote: »3dogsrunning wrote: »
I think that it's subjective to a point. Tiger Woods got Lasik. Depth perception is a big factor in golf. So by getting Lasik, did he attain an unfair advantage over his peers? Had he just kept the eyesight he had, would he have attained the status as a pro as he has now?
I think they're assuming competitions. If you are claiming you are clean to compete against other people who are, it would be cheating. If you are using them because you want to be bigger and you just workout for you, eh, that's your business.How am I cheating anyone? I train for myself, compete in no sports, not governed by any bodies. You cant say hey you're bigger than me you're cheating. Cheating what?
And I'm assuming (based on what they are), the side effects would be more severe in younger teens since they can inhibit development. Of course, you know what they say about assumptions...
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I had LASIK done. It gave me normal eyesight. No different than glasses. Would glasses also be cheating?
I do believe it is still cheating in competition even if "everyone" is doing it so long as the rules are there against it and there is a possibility of being penalized .
Some times people get Lasik and their vision is better than normal (20-15 or so). Since it is putting that person at higher than their potential, would that be cheating?
It is still within the realm of normal vision.
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Again I don't know why he got the surgery. Was it to fix his prescription or was it to gain an advantage.
It's been years since I've had it done but when I did it was not exactly an exact science at that time. They could not guarantee what my prescription would be when I was done. Or how long it would stay. It wasn't a matter of rolling in and walking out with 20/20 or 20/15 vision. And there were risks. It very well could have gone the other way.
Things may have improved since I've had it done but it wasn't something I would have considered would necessarily give someone an advantage.
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Now I realize where the hate comes from. Just reminding you that 3 Championships in 5 years is a dynasty.
Lol, I've met Bonds and personally he was really nice and signed a hat for me. He was cool to all the GIANTS fans.If I were a young athlete, one of my reasons for not using might be that eventually I'll be elite enough to be regulated/tested/caught/penalized for using it. Not the best reason to avoid using steroids, of course, but certainly something to consider ...
Those tests are easy to avoid, and really... the only ones getting "caught" are the ones being turned in by their team mates or coaching staff. Generally because they're world class a-holes, like barry bonds.
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cuz Gigantes fans don't have high enough standards.
my wife is a giants fan, I'm a dodgers fan. It gets frosty.
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You mean a start.
Now I realize where the hate comes from. Just reminding you that 3 Championships in 5 years is a dynasty.
Lol, I've met Bonds and personally he was really nice and signed a hat for me. He was cool to all the GIANTS fans.If I were a young athlete, one of my reasons for not using might be that eventually I'll be elite enough to be regulated/tested/caught/penalized for using it. Not the best reason to avoid using steroids, of course, but certainly something to consider ...
Those tests are easy to avoid, and really... the only ones getting "caught" are the ones being turned in by their team mates or coaching staff. Generally because they're world class a-holes, like barry bonds.
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cuz Gigantes fans don't have high enough standards.
my wife is a giants fan, I'm a dodgers fan. It gets frosty.
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neither here nor there, but it will be a bit before the Dodgers get back on the heap, sadly. As long as it is a California national league team, I'm happy.
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Just a quick note: if some are disappointed in PED use in sports.....................wait till gene doping happens. At that level, there won't be any definitive test to tell if someone has taken advantage.
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Already a lot of research on that happening.0
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<<<---Cardinal fan. All your points are moot.0
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The Padres and Dodgers went crazy in free agency signings. Lol, all we got was an aging Aoki and McGee.
You mean a start.
Now I realize where the hate comes from. Just reminding you that 3 Championships in 5 years is a dynasty.
Lol, I've met Bonds and personally he was really nice and signed a hat for me. He was cool to all the GIANTS fans.If I were a young athlete, one of my reasons for not using might be that eventually I'll be elite enough to be regulated/tested/caught/penalized for using it. Not the best reason to avoid using steroids, of course, but certainly something to consider ...
Those tests are easy to avoid, and really... the only ones getting "caught" are the ones being turned in by their team mates or coaching staff. Generally because they're world class a-holes, like barry bonds.
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
cuz Gigantes fans don't have high enough standards.
my wife is a giants fan, I'm a dodgers fan. It gets frosty.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
neither here nor there, but it will be a bit before the Dodgers get back on the heap, sadly. As long as it is a California national league team, I'm happy.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
0 -
I don't acknowledge the existence of the Padres. Lol0
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