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I'm thinking about going vegetarian or vegan
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TheVirgoddess wrote: »rainbowbow wrote: »sheldonklein wrote: »"
Let's do a thought experiment. Imagine that a tiger was given a moral sense. Do you really think the tiger would decide that eating meat was unethical? Or even that it presents an ethical question?janejellyroll wrote: »ceoverturf wrote: »In for unethical lions, tigers, and bears. Oh My!
Carbs, Sugar, and Carnivores are all the debil.
Do you really consider non-human animals capable of making ethical decisions about food?
Cats are obligate carnivores. I'm all for a species appropriate diet.
But humans CAN survive without eating meat. Hell, if you want to eat meat or fish then by all means.
Let's think of another "thought experiment" if you put a toddler in a room with a banana and a bunny, which do you think they'd eat first?
You're either okay with eating meat, or not. If you are, then i was pointing out that i see no reason for the silly "but you cant eat a dog!" or "You can't eat a cat!" thought process that seems so rampant. Like eating one is perfectly acceptable and eating another is somehow "wrong".
I'm a meat eater and I've been in a similar debate (on the same side as you) over horse meat. I get what you're saying. If meat is okay, then all meat is okay. You can't okay one and not another because of cuteness factor.
Emotionally, I'm not okay with eating animals - I can't even consume meat with bones it in because it makes me think about what I'm actually eating (and it makes me sick).
But I continue to eat meat and just push it to the back of my mind. I realize how ridiculous this is. Maybe one day I'll stop.
Glad you can see my point. IMO, if you eat meat then eating horses and other animals should be fine in your book. As stated in my earlier post, i dont base my morality of eating another animal on how cute it is.
But then again, i have been a vegetarian MY WHOLE LIFE and the decision was made for me. My mom was a health nut when i was growing up and i didn't even have soda or cake and icecream until i was around 13. No junk food allowed!
Being as that was the case when i think of "eating meat and pushing it in the back of my mind" isn't possible for me. It doesn't even register as food to me. Most people find that strange when i explain it that way, but i've never seen/smelled meat and been like "that's something i can/should eat".
Lastly, i have eaten meat twice by mistake (once was shredded chicken in a thick alfredo sauce in pasta and the other ground beef in an enchilada sauce) and it only took a few bites to realize my mistake. I got unbelievable ill and even required hospitalization. =/0 -
Culturally taboo >=< unethical. So no, it is not unethical to eat horse meat. However, I don't think that cultural taboos should be violated lightly.0
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Vegetarianism or veganism aren't the only ways to choose not to support CAFOs.
I raise chickens, hogs, and cattle. The dairy cows experience normal reproductive cycles and births. All of the animals pasture and do the things they were meant to do -- graze, peck in the dirt, roll around in mud. They have lots of really good days, and one bad one. Then, we give thanks and they nourish my family.
The point here is, that I'm not the only one. You can find responsibly raised food. It takes effort, but can be done.0 -
galgenstrick wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »There's virtually no way you can be vegan and not support the meat and dairy industry in some way. Unless of course you're a hermit on a remote island. With that said, you can make decisions which will support them less; for example, by choosing not to consume animal products.
What support are you talking about?
They are getting your money indirectly.
How?
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sheldonklein wrote: »"janejellyroll wrote: »ceoverturf wrote: »In for unethical lions, tigers, and bears. Oh My!
Let's do a thought experiment. Imagine that a tiger was given a moral sense. Do you really think the tiger would decide that eating meat was unethical? Or even that it presents an ethical question?
Do you mean if a tiger had a moral sense in the way we do?
I imagine they could consider that moral question as we do, as well as all the questions we do that they cannot.
Do you think if a non-human can't appreciate a moral issue we should discard it?0 -
Not necessarily. I am vegetarian, and always get my protein requirements -- and enjoy it. Fava beans, lentils, soy milk, tofu...YUM! Just a few of the many ways to get protein.Good grief I rarely meet my protein macros as it is and I eat meat. I'd be in deep nutritional distress if I gave it up.
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No different than an animal in the wild. Perhaps you should go shoot all the carnivores.0
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Vegetarianism or veganism aren't the only ways to choose not to support CAFOs.
I raise chickens, hogs, and cattle. The dairy cows experience normal reproductive cycles and births. All of the animals pasture and do the things they were meant to do -- graze, peck in the dirt, roll around in mud. They have lots of really good days, and one bad one. Then, we give thanks and they nourish my family.
The point here is, that I'm not the only one. You can find responsibly raised food. It takes effort, but can be done.
This is what I posted in another group forum:
But we raise pigs, chickens, turkeys, and ducks for eggs and meat. Well no pig eggs, havent invented that yet. While I get sad when it is time for butcher, it is easier because we treat our animals like kings. The pigs have a shower in their pen they can pull themselves and bathe anytime they want. In the summer its pretty much constant as pigs love water. They get grocery store fresh cut fruit and veggie scraps every week, sometimes two or 3 times a week. We go out there and clean poo everyday and when we are done, we spend quality pig petting time. So I know when my pigs to go butcher, they have lived the best pig life they could. We actually raise one pig for our use and at the same time raise pigs for others at cost.
We do the same with the chickens, ducks and turkeys we raise. They get fresh fruit and veggie and bread scraps a few times a week. They are free range and are so friendly they come when we call and some of my laying hens will perch on your shoulder as you feed them. They have a heated coop in the winter and a nice open breezy forest to run in the summer. So when the meat birds to go butcher, i know they've lived the best life they could too.
My husbands cousin raises our cows since he has pasture land and we've got forest. But those are treated like kings too and so friendly you can pet them and give them a good brush down too.
My point is, if it gets to the point where you, or any one else who is an ethical vegetarian, has to eat meat for heath reasons, maybe find a farm where the animals are treated right before butcher. Not those places you've seen on the news where they are kept in tiny pens away from their babies. I know you dont live in the States, but I hope you could find some farms where you live that treat their animals humanely. I dont know if it helps you, but for me, if they've lived a good life and been treated well, I have a lot less problem using them for my health.
___ So I love your point about many good days and one bad day. If it came down to feeding my family or starving, Id be looking at my dog for food too, so I dont have a problem eating pets if there isnt another option. Again, they had many good days and one bad day. Thankfully I havent had to make that kind of choice yet0 -
(I'm from the UK btw).
Yes I don't know where I stand exactly. I've been doing a lot of research today and I don't know what to eat or not. Milk production seems worse somehow than meat, because at least chickens aren't constantly being impregnated for milk. The opposite really, because of eggs. But there is still the issue with the males being slaughtered.
I don't think fish is as much of a problem, because they aren't as extensively farmed as meats.
I have been having a look at vegan foods. I think I could cut out meat easily, but dairy is harder because milk and eggs are in so many things!
Actually, that's not true, and some fish are being harvested to the brink of extinction.
http://ocean.nationalgeographic.com/ocean/critical-issues-overfishing/
Ocean overfishing is simply the taking of wildlife from the sea at rates too high for fished species to replace themselves. The earliest overfishing occurred in the early 1800s when humans, seeking blubber for lamp oil, decimated the whale population. Some fish that we eat, including Atlantic cod and herring and California's sardines, were also harvested to the brink of extinction by the mid-1900s.
Highly disruptive to the food chain, these isolated, regional depletions became global and catastrophic by the late 20th century.0 -
Hi fellow herbivores! I am transitioning into a vegan lifestyle, although I don't even really call myself one, or even vegetarian. My choice to live on plant-based diet was strictly for health & preventative health reasons. I would call myself a "Raw Foodist" but I am not completely Raw either. I am somewhere in the middle where I am eating mostly raw during the day, and steamed veggies and rice or quinoa or potatoes or pasta, plus large mixed green salads after 5 pm. So, I guess I am Raw-til-5...kinda. I am having a hard time giving up dairy. I need to find substitutions, mostly for butter on popcorn, salad dressings (still using oil & vinegar), and the occasional grated parmesan cheese over pasta. I have completely dropped all forms of meat from my diet (meat, chicken, fish, pork, eggs). It wasn't hard for me to do because I have been heading towards a plant-based diet sorta unknowingly, and with little effort for some time now. With that said, I am still very new to this lifestyle, and it is a Lifestyle. I am very aware of that. Not everything in my life is completely Vegan yet (clothing, cosmetics, home decor etc.) I don't know if it all will ever be which is why I do not label myself as a Vegan. But, I sure am heading that way! Anyways... I just wanted to say hello, and I am welcome to any help or tips from you veteran vegans and raw-vegans.0
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Hi. I have no moral ambiguity about eating meat. Frankly, I don't think about it, other than, "Wow, that steak tasted great". That said, my favorite restaurant right now is VeggieGrill. I absolutely LOVE their Veggie Burgers (with caramelized onions, and jalapenos? Yes Please!). They also have great "chik'n" as they call it. Not a fan of their vegan cheese though.
For me, the process of exploring vegetarianism wasn't so much a moral issue, but simply that I found a restaurant which served great food. Yeah, it's pricier, but it's damn delicious!0 -
That's the funny thing about human nature. We can easily believe that emotional decisions that go against our nature are reasonable.rainbowbow wrote: »Toddlers are miniature drunks.
They'll puke on the rabbit and put the banana in their pants.
Fair enough. But i still don't think it's human nature to see all living things and be like "GET IN MY MOUTH" dead bird on the sidewalk. Or "You look tasty!" pet hamster.
We CAN eat meat, but surely our survival no longer depends on it. We aren't carnivores and to compare ourselves to lions is silly.
I look at my dog. She's cute, she's friendly. I enjoy her, and love her. She's also a tool, a sentinel, a line of defense, and at need food.
Our survival depends on eating a variety of things, meat, fats, vegetables, and fruits included. It's kinda crazy. What we are is omnivores, meaning we're not as efficient as we could be with meats, and not as efficient as we could be with veg, so we need both.
I look at people trying to reason one way or another, and just laugh at them.
Then again, I view myself as one of the few people "doing it right", as I both grow fruit and veg, as well as kill some of the meat I eat. I actually have perspective that most will never have. They prefer to leave the dirty work to others. We're all killers for survival, some of us are just more realistic and adult about it than others.
As for @TheVirgoddess : Horse is delicious.
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Everyone who consumes foods, regardless of the source, plant or animal are doing it with or without the knowledge that animals are being "murdered" (vegan wording) and to think otherwise is just a convenient omission of guilt. Of course doing it for the sake of growing crops to feed the masses or killing animals conveniently referred to as pests, is apparently acceptable. Personally pretty much everything with the exception of most dairy I buy locally from people I know, and I can live with that, especially during hunting season. I also chef at a spa a couple days a week that is vegetarian and eat vegetarian 2 days a week, so don't hate me.
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No different than an animal in the wild. Perhaps you should go shoot all the carnivores.
I believe that humans have a capacity for ethical decision making that non-humans lack. I imagine you also believe this to some extent, unless you think all behavior non-humans engage in is acceptable to humans. Is that what you think?0 -
Today is Monday so I was a vegetarian for a day but yesterday I had a 6 ounce juicy New York strip.0
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I believe that the best nutrition for my family is achieved by well-raised, healthy pastured meats in addition to a wide variety of plant items -- many of which we also grow here.
It is because I believe that, that I take steps to achieve it. Being close to the process does not make me evil. How silly. Animals die just the same whether a person knows them beforehand or not.
Slaughter day is hard.
This will be my last response to you.0 -
If arguments for veganism make you so defensive, perhaps you should avoid threads discussing reasons to consider veganism. Do you really think everyone advocating veganism is making a personal attack on you?
Animals die just the same is a confusing argument for slaughter. People die just the same, but we don't argue we can use their bodies for profit and pleasure - - or do you?
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janejellyroll wrote: »Animals die just the same is a confusing argument for slaughter. People die just the same, but we don't argue we can use their bodies for profit and pleasure - - or do you?
Define bodies used for research. Profit and pleasure both.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »If arguments for veganism make you so defensive, perhaps you should avoid threads discussing reasons to consider veganism. Do you really think everyone advocating veganism is making a personal attack on you?
Animals die just the same is a confusing argument for slaughter. People die just the same, but we don't argue we can use their bodies for profit and pleasure - - or do you?
Explain this.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armin_Meiwes0
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