why don't the low carb folks believe in CICO?
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lemurcat12 wrote: »Interesting. I'm wondering what macro targets you are thinking of here.
When I started I was on pretty low calories (1250) and did about 110 grams of protein, I think (35%), which is more than I think is reasonably necessary for someone of my size (although that much or more works for me because I love lots of protein-containing foods), with 30% fat and 35% carbs--that's kind of just how it naturally broke down when I started focusing on getting in my protein and cutting out foods that didn't seem to have the bang for the buck according to my taste preferences. But I wouldn't find more protein than that helpful (although I eat more now because I have more calories) and wouldn't consider that either high protein or low carb. Thus, I'm just curious how people are defining their terms.
I also agree with you pointing at that some of this is a function of calories. I've raised my calories by a lot (I'm trying to ease up into maintenance level), and at 1800 and above I had to raise my carbs percentage because I don't want more than say 125 grams of protein as a goal (I'm 125 lbs), and I seem to feel best at about 50-60 grams of fat, which left me back at about 50% carbs. (Also I find that if I'm more active--as I am when I have a higher TDEE, especially since I do a lot of cardio stuff--I naturally tend to want more carbs.)
The percentages you list as targets, in the 35/30/35 range (protein/fat/carbs), are about what seems to be "normal" for me if I am eating at maintenance level with light exercise (like daily half hour walks). Cutting calories I do best upping the protein percentage to keep above a minimum number of grams (which I shoot for over 120), increasing excercise I do best upping the carbs. It's a teeny bit more complicated than "I eat what makes me feel good" since it's pretty easy to tell myself that a diet of 35% dark chocolate, 30% pizza and 35% Guinness Stout makes me feel good...but it's not all that much more complicated than that.
Side note: I'm a history buff, and at a visit to Fort Snelling in Minnesota last summer I had an opportunity to talk to some folks involved in the WWII hunger/starvation studies that were conducted there, upon which a lot of nutrition science is actually still based. I was fascinated to learn that one of the major side effects noted in all the participants, was that calorie restriction resulted in them being obsessed with food, recipes, analyzing the content of their food and arguing over its relative health merits and nutritive content, arguing over who was losing weight faster and why, etc etc. These thoughts and behaviors were a biological side effect of the calorie restriction (and furthermore, the behaviors actually persisted long after the end of the caloric restriction portion of the experiment). So, that just seemed of interest to me--it seems logical that we would have a lot of that type of behavior going on in a forum full of people who are basically putting themselves through a calorie-restriction experiment.0 -
Have you guys hear of the "Twinkie Diet" ? http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/
"Being overweight is the central problem that leads to complications like high blood pressure, diabetes and high cholesterol. For 10 weeks, Mark Haub, a professor of human nutrition at Kansas State University, ate one of these sugary cakelets every three hours, instead of meals. To add variety in his steady stream of Hostess and Little Debbie snacks, Haub munched on Doritos chips, sugary cereals and Oreos, too.
His premise: That in weight loss, pure calorie counting is what matters most -- not the nutritional value of the food.
The premise held up: On his "convenience store diet," he shed 27 pounds in two months."
I think that this kind of diet is probably not nutritionally sound in the long run. However, the fact his overall health improved from weight loss alone shows how being overweight is really the problem for many of the health problems we face.
It also shows that CICO is the reason for weight loss regardless of what those calories are.
I don't think I'll be trying this diet anytime soon but I will be eating nutritionally dense foods, watching my calorie intake and exercising to get to were I want to be.0 -
ogmomma2012 wrote: »ogmomma2012 wrote: »Low carb still requires calorie counting. /thread
do you low carb? Just curious….
I did for about a month. It's not hard to fill up on leafy greens, meat and a little cheese even when your NET carbs are below 50g. I did keto, it was sustainable in my household but I stuck to it long enough to understand WHY people on low carb say they don't count calories. It's because fat and protien is more satifying, so most low-carbers tend to eat less anyway. I have to run to lunch now, be back in 30.
I think she's right. Generally speaking I try to eat low carb but I still end up with 40% at the end of the week anyway. But, I find on days when I really try to stay away from carbs I do MUCH better because I am full and don't find the need to snack. For instance, I avoid bread as much as possible... my typical lunch is a salad or soup. Yesterday someone brought in sandwiches from Panera and within an hour of eating lunch I felt hungry again and wanting to snack when usually that's not the case.
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I'd be curious as to whether anyone had scientific evidence to support CICO? All I've seen is refutations, as far as actual scientific studies.
This is a well referenced post: http://evidencemag.com/why-calories-count/
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/79/5/899S.long
http://nutritionreviews.oxfordjournals.org/content/67/5/249
Beat me to it but to be fair I stole the links from you originally.
Now for some humor...
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Leanbean65 wrote: »Have you guys hear of the "Twinkie Diet" ? http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/
"Being overweight is the central problem that leads to complications like high blood pressure, diabetes and high cholesterol. For 10 weeks, Mark Haub, a professor of human nutrition at Kansas State University, ate one of these sugary cakelets every three hours, instead of meals. To add variety in his steady stream of Hostess and Little Debbie snacks, Haub munched on Doritos chips, sugary cereals and Oreos, too.
His premise: That in weight loss, pure calorie counting is what matters most -- not the nutritional value of the food.
The premise held up: On his "convenience store diet," he shed 27 pounds in two months."
I think that this kind of diet is probably not nutritionally sound in the long run. However, the fact his overall health improved from weight loss alone shows how being overweight is really the problem for many of the health problems we face.
It also shows that CICO is the reason for weight loss regardless of what those calories are.
I don't think I'll be trying this diet anytime soon but I will be eating nutritionally dense foods, watching my calorie intake and exercising to get to were I want to be.
This was a great exercise ... but I want to point a few things out.
1. This was done for 2 months. Not a long time. In my personal experience, in reducing calories (and eating high carb) I also lost a lot of weight in the first two months just by restricting calories. It was after that where weight loss began to plateau
2. There's a decent chance this person is not sensitive to a high-carbs, was not insulin resistant (yet).0 -
Here's an article on a study that showed that there was more weight loss on a low-carb diet than a low-fat diet of the same caloric intake:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22735432
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Leanbean65 wrote: »Have you guys hear of the "Twinkie Diet" ? http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/
"Being overweight is the central problem that leads to complications like high blood pressure, diabetes and high cholesterol. For 10 weeks, Mark Haub, a professor of human nutrition at Kansas State University, ate one of these sugary cakelets every three hours, instead of meals. To add variety in his steady stream of Hostess and Little Debbie snacks, Haub munched on Doritos chips, sugary cereals and Oreos, too.
His premise: That in weight loss, pure calorie counting is what matters most -- not the nutritional value of the food.
The premise held up: On his "convenience store diet," he shed 27 pounds in two months."
I think that this kind of diet is probably not nutritionally sound in the long run. However, the fact his overall health improved from weight loss alone shows how being overweight is really the problem for many of the health problems we face.
It also shows that CICO is the reason for weight loss regardless of what those calories are.
I don't think I'll be trying this diet anytime soon but I will be eating nutritionally dense foods, watching my calorie intake and exercising to get to were I want to be.
This was a great exercise ... but I want to point a few things out.
1. This was done for 2 months. Not a long time. In my personal experience, in reducing calories (and eating high carb) I also lost a lot of weight in the first two months just by restricting calories. It was after that where weight loss began to plateau
2. There's a decent chance this person is not sensitive to a high-carbs, was not insulin resistant (yet).
Strong fallacies0 -
I would have thought there would be more consensus on what low carb is...
Feinman published a suggestion with his rationaleVery low-carbohydrate ketogenic diet (VLCKD)
•Carbohydrate, 20–50 g/d or <10% of the 2000 kcal/d diet, whether or not ketosis occurs. Derived from levels of carbohydrate required to induce ketosis in most people.
•Recommended early phase (“induction”) of popular diets such as Atkins Diet or Protein Power.
Low-carbohydrate diet: <130 g/d or <26% total energy
•The ADA definition of 130 g/d as its recommended minimum.
Moderate-Carbohydrate Diet: 26%–45%
•Upper limit, approximate carbohydrate intake before the obesity epidemic (43%).
High-Carbohydrate Diet: >45%
•Recommended target on ADA websites.
•The 2010 Dietary Guidelines for Americans recommends 45%–65% carbohydrate. The average American diet is estimated to be ∼49% carbohydrate.
Carbohydrate Consumption (NHANES)†:
Men
•1971–1974: 42% (∼250 g for 2450 kcal/d)
•1999–2000: 49% (∼330 g for 2600 kcal/d)
Women
•1971–1974: 45% (∼150 g for 1550 kcal/d)
•1999–2000: 52% (∼230 g for 1900 kcal/d)
and a recent paper compared two diets
"a very low carbohydrate, ketogenic diet (≤50 g carbohydrates per day not including fiber) "
"the MCCR group were encouraged to derive 45% to 50% of their calories from carbohydrates" - Moderate Carbohydrate Calorie Restricted.
So by that I am on a low carb diet eating over 200g per day because of percentages...
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Leanbean65 wrote: »Have you guys hear of the "Twinkie Diet" ? http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/
"Being overweight is the central problem that leads to complications like high blood pressure, diabetes and high cholesterol. For 10 weeks, Mark Haub, a professor of human nutrition at Kansas State University, ate one of these sugary cakelets every three hours, instead of meals. To add variety in his steady stream of Hostess and Little Debbie snacks, Haub munched on Doritos chips, sugary cereals and Oreos, too.
His premise: That in weight loss, pure calorie counting is what matters most -- not the nutritional value of the food.
The premise held up: On his "convenience store diet," he shed 27 pounds in two months."
I think that this kind of diet is probably not nutritionally sound in the long run. However, the fact his overall health improved from weight loss alone shows how being overweight is really the problem for many of the health problems we face.
It also shows that CICO is the reason for weight loss regardless of what those calories are.
I don't think I'll be trying this diet anytime soon but I will be eating nutritionally dense foods, watching my calorie intake and exercising to get to were I want to be.
This was a great exercise ... but I want to point a few things out.
1. This was done for 2 months. Not a long time. In my personal experience, in reducing calories (and eating high carb) I also lost a lot of weight in the first two months just by restricting calories. It was after that where weight loss began to plateau
2. There's a decent chance this person is not sensitive to a high-carbs, was not insulin resistant (yet).
to point two, are you sensitive to high carbs? If yes, it should of been included in your original post about losing more once switching to low carb....0 -
Just popping in to say I am amazed this thread is still going. Some shots fired but more or less civil. Nice to see0
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Here's an article on a study that showed that there was more weight loss on a low-carb diet than a low-fat diet of the same caloric intake:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22735432
Cherry picking one study that is severely flawed. Read the entire study rather than just the abstract. There is more than one low variable here that is manipulated; protein. Why is protein lower in the high carb group and higher in the high fat group. And the amount is VERY significant as the high fat group got 50% more. Who doesn't understand that protein needs increase with dietary restriction? Here is the cliffs notes in case you are physiologically challenged; the high carb group got muscle cannibalism but the high fat group had it preserved (somewhat). WOW!
Also read the review studies.0 -
Here's an article on a study that showed that there was more weight loss on a low-carb diet than a low-fat diet of the same caloric intake:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22735432
yes, and there are other studies showing no difference which were posted earlier in this thread. so there is no conclusive evidence one way or the other.0 -
I'm new to all this and want to thank the OP for this thread! I'm low carb due to medical issues - recently diagnosed, only started low carb a little under a month (doctor/nutritionist designed specific diet). I've been reading many of the low carb threads and have been confused as well by the idea that LCers are not calorie restricting and still losing weight.
Yes, I lost weight prior to starting on LC and I tracked by calories. Now, I track my carbs so I don't pay as much attention to my calories, however, I STILL have a deficit in calories so of course I'm still losing weight. I'm restricted to 50-60g of carbs a day which basically means lots of veggies and meat. I'm also unable to eat dairy, eggs, soy, any grains & other things (I have a long list of "no" and short list of "yes"). While that is a very restrictive diet (not by choice), I am under no illusion that the weight loss is due to the calorie deficit. I also can't say I'm losing more now that I'm LC. Maybe, slightly, but it's only been a few weeks so perhaps I will lose more rapidly, as others claim.
However, what I DO equate to LC/keto/restrictive diet are other things such as less bloating, less joint pain, etc. That being said, I also think that is because of my medical issues (autoimmune illness, celiac, diabetes, thyroid) the way I felt improved because of eliminating my "triggers". I do not believe everyone would feel as good as I do because everyone is different. I admit, at times, I am almost afraid to say I'm LC/keto/restrictive... whatever diet you want to call it... because it is almost like a cult! Some followers seem to believe it is the only way, the best way, and those who don't believe or follow just don't understand the perfection that is this diet
But, thanks again, learning a lot!0 -
RockstarWilson wrote: »Leanbean65 wrote: »
I think nutritionally dense foods with a good mix of healthy fats, protein and complex carbs is a more realistic plan for long term weight management.
Healthy fats, you say.....about 70 to 80%* of the fat I eat is saturated. According to standards set by the AHA, which are endorsed by the US Government, saturated fats are not healthy fats. I have been eating this way for about 8 months. I just had blood work done, and my cholesterol numbers are stellar, along with everything else.
The AHA says this:
"Eating foods that contain saturated fats raises the level of cholesterol in your blood. Be aware, too, that many foods high in saturated fats can be high in calories too...The American Heart Association recommends aiming for a dietary pattern that achieves 5% to 6% of calories from saturated fat. That means, for example, if you need about 2,000 calories a day, no more than 120 of them should come from saturated fats. That’s about 13 grams of saturated fats a day."
https://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/GettingHealthy/NutritionCenter/HealthyEating/Saturated-Fats_UCM_301110_Article.jsp
I know I have an awesome body, so obviously the results may vary for some people, but for a normal person, eating saturated fat is NOT unhealthy and it should not raise bad cholesterol. But the AHA virtually promises it will.
Wonder why my faith in government is diminished? I know it was a bit off topic, but it is an interesting topic in many circles.
*correction: 50-60% of my fat (which is at 70% of total macros) comes from saturated sources. That is 90-100 grams of saturated fat. According to the AHA, I should fall over and have a stroke any day now.
I'm just going to point out that the AHA is not the government.
Are they an interest group with a lobbying wing? Yes.
Are they the government? No.
Also, I think we're going to have to get the chip off our shoulders about fat and dietary cholesterol being bad for us since many recommendations are beginning to change.
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Gianfranco_R wrote: »
But the whole point of the argument going on now is that you are basically saying that anyone eating less than that 45-65% carb intake is low carb, right?
Personally I would label 30/40% as moderate carbs, nonetheless diets like the Zone for instance (where carbs are 40%) are often enlisted as low-carb.
I also think of the Zone or any 40-30-30 plan (which is what I typically do) as moderate carbs. In part because if I get my protein to 30% my carbs are never above 40%. I don't have to restrict them--I'd have to actively push to get them higher.
In fact, because I'm at a calorie level where 30% of calories is about 140 grams, and I really don't need protein at anywhere near that level or desire to eat more fat on average than I do (I eat plenty), and because I'm trying an eating plan that recommends more carbs around workouts, I'm actively trying to get my carbs up to 50%, and finding it difficult.
Not that anyone cares, but I think it's funny to then claim carbs at this level are "restricted." I think anything from 30-55% is probably just balanced macros. (And no better than lower carb percentages, but simply up to the preference of the individual.)
I also agree with the poster who said that the issue with the SAD has nothing to do with macros, but food selection and source. Worldwide diets vary a lot in terms of macro breakdown (traditional diets and otherwise) and the SAD is not especially notable in its macro breakdown.
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Here's an article on a study that showed that there was more weight loss on a low-carb diet than a low-fat diet of the same caloric intake:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22735432
Cherry picking one study that is severely flawed. Read the entire study rather than just the abstract. There is more than one low variable here that is manipulated; protein. Why is protein lower in the high carb group and higher in the high fat group. And the amount is VERY significant as the high fat group got 50% more. Who doesn't understand that protein needs increase with dietary restriction? Here is the cliffs notes in case you are physiologically challenged; the high carb group got muscle cannibalism but the high fat group had it preserved (somewhat). WOW!
Also read the review studies.
Yes, the "superiority" of studies like this lie in the high protein, not the low carb.0 -
Here's an article on a study that showed that there was more weight loss on a low-carb diet than a low-fat diet of the same caloric intake:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22735432
Cherry picking one study that is severely flawed. Read the entire study rather than just the abstract. There is more than one low variable here that is manipulated; protein. Why is protein lower in the high carb group and higher in the high fat group. And the amount is VERY significant as the high fat group got 50% more. Who doesn't understand that protein needs increase with dietary restriction? Here is the cliffs notes in case you are physiologically challenged; the high carb group got muscle cannibalism but the high fat group had it preserved (somewhat). WOW!
Also read the review studies.
Yes, the "superiority" of studies like this lie in the high protein, not the low carb.
Yeah, I cannot believe that this even got published!0 -
Gianfranco_R wrote: »
^ apparently in this posters view 35% is "low carb"
from a SAD point of view, yes, missed that.
from http://www.todaysdietitian.com/newarchives/080113p12.shtmlLow-Carb Approach
There’s no consensus on the definition of a low-carb diet. This is why looking at the methodology of different scientific studies always is important to understand exactly what kind of low-carb diet was investigated, which can vary anywhere between 45% to less than 5% of its calories from carbs. Most researchers with experience in the field of low-carb diets usually base their studies on diets providing between 30 and 100 g of carbohydrates per day accompanied with a moderate amount of protein (15% to 30% of calories), with fats providing the rest of the daily energy requirements.
interesting..
I would have thought there would be more consensus on what low carb is...
In the low carb forums here, they acknowledge that LC means something different for everyone but welcomes anyone who wants to join. Typically under 100g total a day is considered low carb in the groups ive seen, where under 20g net is considered Keto level.
The low carb label is fairly arbitrary. But most people who profess to be low carb fall somewhere in between 5% carbs and 100g total carbs.
Thinking about this a bit more, I typically understand "low carbing" off MFP as counting carbs, not calories. It really doesn't matter what your level is, but that the focus is on how many carbs you eat, not other things. Similarly, off MFP eating "low fat" means actively watching the amount of fat you eat instead of other things (or following a diet from a doctor labeled as low fat). Ornish is in this category, for example, and some other "heart healthy" diets. Calorie based diets would be active calorie counting and also focusing on portion size/"eating healthy" and cutting out snacking (what I did to lose the time I did it pre MFP), as well as things like Jenny Craig and WW.
On MFP it gets confused because people may count calories AND follow a low carb strategy. Under these circumstances I'd consider "low carb" either focusing mainly on carbs, not calories, OR having a carb goal that puts you in keto or is significantly lower than what one would get just watching protein and calories--25% and under, maybe.
But I don't think the definition is really that significant for OP's original question, since someone who counts calories AND carbs presumably isn't claiming that CICO doesn't matter if you are low carb. The people who fall in that category are those who don't focus on calories at all AND who deny that the reason low carb works for them is that it creates a calorie deficit (by changing hunger patterns or whatever).
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lemurcat12 wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »
But the whole point of the argument going on now is that you are basically saying that anyone eating less than that 45-65% carb intake is low carb, right?
Personally I would label 30/40% as moderate carbs, nonetheless diets like the Zone for instance (where carbs are 40%) are often enlisted as low-carb.
I also think of the Zone or any 40-30-30 plan (which is what I typically do) as moderate carbs. In part because if I get my protein to 30% my carbs are never above 40%. I don't have to restrict them--I'd have to actively push to get them higher.
In fact, because I'm at a calorie level where 30% of calories is about 140 grams, and I really don't need protein at anywhere near that level or desire to eat more fat on average than I do (I eat plenty), and because I'm trying an eating plan that recommends more carbs around workouts, I'm actively trying to get my carbs up to 50%, and finding it difficult.
Not that anyone cares, but I think it's funny to then claim carbs at this level are "restricted." I think anything from 30-55% is probably just balanced macros. (And no better than lower carb percentages, but simply up to the preference of the individual.)
I also agree with the poster who said that the issue with the SAD has nothing to do with macros, but food selection and source. Worldwide diets vary a lot in terms of macro breakdown (traditional diets and otherwise) and the SAD is not especially notable in its macro breakdown.
There's a confounding issue here that gets political, so I'll try to go into it without getting this shut down. The current recommendations in the US for diabetics are set up to require medication no matter what. Individual doctors will go against them and recommend lower carb to try and get patients off meds, but it's not what guidelines tell them to do. They are supposed to tell patients to eat at the higher end of moderate and depend on the meds to do the work. The numbers at face value don't include that condition, but it really goes hand in hand with the higher (moderate) numbers. For the sake of prescribing those meds, they'll describe 150-200 as "reducing carbs.". When people actually reduce carbs, meaning 100 range on down, many lose the meds completely.
My husband tested high at his last appt. The preprinted literature the doctor handed him followed those guidelines, eat plenty of carbs and take meds. It didn't mention the option to reduce more and not take meds. Fortunately our doctor is more interested in his health than the national guidelines.0 -
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