it is probably not "muscle"
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That's not what I was looking for. I meant more specifically. Because hormones and receptors and other cellular mechanisms are not direct cause-effect relationships, can vary widely between individuals, and can be interfered with in many ways to pretty much any degree. The idea that such a mechanism is foolproof would need some serious explaining.neanderthin wrote: »Does anyone know the actual explanation for newbie gains?
The basic survival mechanism. In a deficit that mechanism will still be activated but dependent on many variables and limited of course by the nature of that deficit, which is why the hypertrophy slows, comes to a stop, then atrophy begins.
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in for laughs-1
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All it says is that newb gains happen. I don't think anyone is disputing that. What I was talking about is something like, I dunno, for a hypothetical example, "muscle and fat cells take in energy based on blood insulin levels and their sensitivity decreases as they get bigger, thus when fat cells are big and muscle cells are small the muscles will take in more energy while fat either refuses or even loses and muscle will grow while fat shrinks, and as muscle grows and fat shrinks this balance shifts thus preventing muscle from getting as big a share of the nutrients and requiring a smaller deficit and eventually a larger surplus for significant growth." If it were something like that, then someone whose muscles lost sensitivity more slowly and/or fat gained resistance more quickly would likely be capable of more prolonged/significant newbie gains. Etc.thecunninglinguist wrote: »
here's a good article on newb gains, though its a little wordyLiftAllThePizzas wrote: »
That's not what I was looking for. I meant more specifically. Because hormones and receptors and other cellular mechanisms are not direct cause-effect relationships, can vary widely between individuals, and can be interfered with in many ways to pretty much any degree. The idea that such a mechanism is foolproof would need some serious explaining.neanderthin wrote: »Does anyone know the actual explanation for newbie gains?
The basic survival mechanism. In a deficit that mechanism will still be activated but dependent on many variables and limited of course by the nature of that deficit, which is why the hypertrophy slows, comes to a stop, then atrophy begins.
http://startingstrength.com/articles/novice_effect_rippetoe.pdf0 -
Reading though all these discussions doesnt help anyone new btw. It is kind of discouraging ..because it doesn’t seem anyone has a concrete answer … just a lot of arguing and opposing views
Ok so just to make this clear to myself from the 5 pages I just read ...because I have never lifted weights but have started to 3-5 days a week at least an hour with someone that knows what they are doing and is increasing it incrementally... some cardio (meaning every day 10-20 minutes), weighing my food, condiments etc... that the only thing weight training will do for me at this point is maintain my existing muscle while loosing weight?0 -
Reading though all these discussions doesnt help anyone new btw. It is kind of discouraging ..because it doesn’t seem anyone has a concrete answer … just a lot of arguing and opposing views
Ok so just to make this clear to myself from the 5 pages I just read ...because I have never lifted weights but have started to 3-5 days a week at least an hour with someone that knows what they are doing and is increasing it incrementally... some cardio (meaning every day 10-20 minutes), weighing my food, condiments etc... that the only thing weight training will do for me at this point is maintain my existing muscle while loosing weight?
So knowing that discourages you from lifting. Do you know how it is to lose weight with losing a lot of Lean Body Mass. That's not fun and you might have a higher body fat% then before the weight you lost.
I have done the wrong way to lose weight. I looked like *kitten* and everyone thought I looked so good. So I stopped and blew up to my heaviest weight ever.-1 -
LiftAllThePizzas wrote: »And something akin to this (body fat releasing enough to make total available energy greater than TDEE) has to happen in order for newbie gains to occur. (Does anyone know the actual explanation for newbie gains?)
In my opinion, "noob gains" aren't real. They're an artifact of a sedentary society, and only represent a kind of making up for lost time because we're starting from an unexpectedly low level of muscular fitness. It's the body fighting to return to "normal".
Take a 21 year old male who's been slinging hay bales on mom's farm for the past 18 years, drop his lean, strong body into a gym, and you won't see much, if any, noob gains.
I think some of this discussion is getting lost in the cracks between local and global. The body can be at a deficit overall, and at a surplus locally. If someone is eating right at maintenance - and they hit the weights (or go running or whatever) - the muscles being hit will metabolize fat stores local to the muscle itself for additional fuel. It's not all adipose - some of this is intramuscular fat, which is precisely what it's there for (it can be a looooong way from the middle of a big muscle to the nearest large fat deposit!)
So the local muscles can be in a surplus, while the overall body is not.
(ETA: As a side note, burning intramuscular fat is incredibly inefficient in terms of oxygen usage - which is part of why lifting heavy comes with so much huffing and puffing even though the body's not really going anywhere.)
If you do the thought experiment and drop intake 1 calorie at a time, it should be clear that situations exist where the overall body is at a deficit but a specific muscular region can be at a surplus. It should also be clear that there comes a point where the overall deficit overwhelms the ability of any individual region to compensate, so there will be a deficit level at which even noob gains become impossible.
BUT...if you are eating back those exercise calories you won't be at maintenance anymore, you'll be at surplus!
Follow?
The body isn't one system - it's a bunch of linked systems working independently while taking cues off of each other.
ETA: This is why a properly executed PSFM works so well...it walks the line of maximum local fat metabolization to prevent (significant) toasting of lean body mass.
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yopeeps025 wrote: »Reading though all these discussions doesnt help anyone new btw. It is kind of discouraging ..because it doesn’t seem anyone has a concrete answer … just a lot of arguing and opposing views
Ok so just to make this clear to myself from the 5 pages I just read ...because I have never lifted weights but have started to 3-5 days a week at least an hour with someone that knows what they are doing and is increasing it incrementally... some cardio (meaning every day 10-20 minutes), weighing my food, condiments etc... that the only thing weight training will do for me at this point is maintain my existing muscle while loosing weight?
So knowing that discourages you from lifting. Do you know how it is to lose weight with losing a lot of Lean Body Mass. That's not fun and you might have a higher body fat% then before the weight you lost.
I have done the wrong way to lose weight. I looked like *kitten* and everyone thought I looked so good. So I stopped and blew up to my heaviest weight ever.
Sorry I dont understand your answer... what discourages me from lifting weights is that I dont have a concrete answer as to why I should continue doing it while I am trying to lose weight. Should I just concentrate on cardio and lose weight and forget lifting until I want to build muscle/and or tone? Especially since I see crazy fluctioantions in my weight as much as 5 lbs in a day... which apparently shouldnt be attributed to lifting weights...0 -
yopeeps025 wrote: »Reading though all these discussions doesnt help anyone new btw. It is kind of discouraging ..because it doesn’t seem anyone has a concrete answer … just a lot of arguing and opposing views
Ok so just to make this clear to myself from the 5 pages I just read ...because I have never lifted weights but have started to 3-5 days a week at least an hour with someone that knows what they are doing and is increasing it incrementally... some cardio (meaning every day 10-20 minutes), weighing my food, condiments etc... that the only thing weight training will do for me at this point is maintain my existing muscle while loosing weight?
So knowing that discourages you from lifting. Do you know how it is to lose weight with losing a lot of Lean Body Mass. That's not fun and you might have a higher body fat% then before the weight you lost.
I have done the wrong way to lose weight. I looked like *kitten* and everyone thought I looked so good. So I stopped and blew up to my heaviest weight ever.
Sorry I dont understand your answer... what discourages me from lifting weights is that I dont have a concrete answer as to why I should continue doing it while I am trying to lose weight. Should I just concentrate on cardio and lose weight and forget lifting until I want to build muscle/and or tone? Especially since I see crazy fluctioantions in my weight as much as 5 lbs in a day... which apparently shouldnt be attributed to lifting weights...
Doing some kind of resistance training preserves muscle mass...when you diet and you don't work those muscles, you will lose both muscle and fat...ideally, you would want to lose as little muscle mass as possible.
It is much easier to preserve what you have than to lose it and then have to build it again.
Also, 5Lbs day to day fluctuations are completely normal...body weight isn't static...you don't weigh exactly XXX Lbs. I can easily fluctuate 3-5 Lbs day to day depending on water retention/release, more/less waste in my system at weigh in, etc.0 -
I have to disagree with you. Reading conversations like this does help people, especially people that want to learn. We can all learn things from conversations like this. It's up to the individual that wants to learn to do some research as well if they want more answers.Reading though all these discussions doesnt help anyone new btw. It is kind of discouraging ..because it doesn’t seem anyone has a concrete answer … just a lot of arguing and opposing views
Ok so just to make this clear to myself from the 5 pages I just read ...because I have never lifted weights but have started to 3-5 days a week at least an hour with someone that knows what they are doing and is increasing it incrementally... some cardio (meaning every day 10-20 minutes), weighing my food, condiments etc... that the only thing weight training will do for me at this point is maintain my existing muscle while loosing weight?
So if someone said to you as an example that while losing weight you could either
A. Lift weights and do as much as you can to preserve the muscle you do have while losing body fat
B. Not lift weights and lose body fat while losing muscle
You would choose B?
you also misunderstood... I dont find it helpful because I wasnt sure if lifting weights wile loosing did anything for me given all the arguing back and forth.... How can one find it helpful when there is no consensus?... However, I think I got it. I should lift while trying to lose because I will maintain muscle and just overall be stronger!! Also... I am here to learn that is why I am asking ..thank you for your reply
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Wanted to add...the body isn't a static system, either. "Maintenance" changes day to day, even under conditions where the activity level is constant. Because of that, there is a very strong mathematical argument for some degree of caloric and macro cycling - if you yo-yo by, say, 20%, you will hit optimum intake more often than if you stay at one level all the time.
For anyone interested in chasing down the math, it's similar to dose-response issues, where the optimum intake of a drug isn't the recommended dosage, it's alternating between taking a bit too much and taking a bit too little (averaging out to "recommended" over time).
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cwolfman13 wrote: »yopeeps025 wrote: »Reading though all these discussions doesnt help anyone new btw. It is kind of discouraging ..because it doesn’t seem anyone has a concrete answer … just a lot of arguing and opposing views
Ok so just to make this clear to myself from the 5 pages I just read ...because I have never lifted weights but have started to 3-5 days a week at least an hour with someone that knows what they are doing and is increasing it incrementally... some cardio (meaning every day 10-20 minutes), weighing my food, condiments etc... that the only thing weight training will do for me at this point is maintain my existing muscle while loosing weight?
So knowing that discourages you from lifting. Do you know how it is to lose weight with losing a lot of Lean Body Mass. That's not fun and you might have a higher body fat% then before the weight you lost.
I have done the wrong way to lose weight. I looked like *kitten* and everyone thought I looked so good. So I stopped and blew up to my heaviest weight ever.
Sorry I dont understand your answer... what discourages me from lifting weights is that I dont have a concrete answer as to why I should continue doing it while I am trying to lose weight. Should I just concentrate on cardio and lose weight and forget lifting until I want to build muscle/and or tone? Especially since I see crazy fluctioantions in my weight as much as 5 lbs in a day... which apparently shouldnt be attributed to lifting weights...
Doing some kind of resistance training preserves muscle mass...when you diet and you don't work those muscles, you will lose both muscle and fat...ideally, you would want to lose as little muscle mass as possible.
It is much easier to preserve what you have than to lose it and then have to build it again.
Also, 5Lbs day to day fluctuations are completely normal...body weight isn't static...you don't weigh exactly XXX Lbs. I can easily fluctuate 3-5 Lbs day to day depending on water retention/release, more/less waste in my system at weigh in, etc.
ok great.. thank you! This is what I needed to know0 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »yopeeps025 wrote: »Reading though all these discussions doesnt help anyone new btw. It is kind of discouraging ..because it doesn’t seem anyone has a concrete answer … just a lot of arguing and opposing views
Ok so just to make this clear to myself from the 5 pages I just read ...because I have never lifted weights but have started to 3-5 days a week at least an hour with someone that knows what they are doing and is increasing it incrementally... some cardio (meaning every day 10-20 minutes), weighing my food, condiments etc... that the only thing weight training will do for me at this point is maintain my existing muscle while loosing weight?
So knowing that discourages you from lifting. Do you know how it is to lose weight with losing a lot of Lean Body Mass. That's not fun and you might have a higher body fat% then before the weight you lost.
I have done the wrong way to lose weight. I looked like *kitten* and everyone thought I looked so good. So I stopped and blew up to my heaviest weight ever.
Sorry I dont understand your answer... what discourages me from lifting weights is that I dont have a concrete answer as to why I should continue doing it while I am trying to lose weight. Should I just concentrate on cardio and lose weight and forget lifting until I want to build muscle/and or tone? Especially since I see crazy fluctioantions in my weight as much as 5 lbs in a day... which apparently shouldnt be attributed to lifting weights...
Doing some kind of resistance training preserves muscle mass...when you diet and you don't work those muscles, you will lose both muscle and fat...ideally, you would want to lose as little muscle mass as possible.
It is much easier to preserve what you have than to lose it and then have to build it again.
Also, 5Lbs day to day fluctuations are completely normal...body weight isn't static...you don't weigh exactly XXX Lbs. I can easily fluctuate 3-5 Lbs day to day depending on water retention/release, more/less waste in my system at weigh in, etc.
^this
I don't believe there is any dispute whatsoever about the effectiveness and benefits of resistance training while in a deficit...or while at maintenance or a surplus. That anyone would use it as an excuse not to is not (IMHO) the fault of those having a conversation about this particular nuance of the process.0 -
I have to disagree with you. Reading conversations like this does help people, especially people that want to learn. We can all learn things from conversations like this. It's up to the individual that wants to learn to do some research as well if they want more answers.Reading though all these discussions doesnt help anyone new btw. It is kind of discouraging ..because it doesn’t seem anyone has a concrete answer … just a lot of arguing and opposing views
Ok so just to make this clear to myself from the 5 pages I just read ...because I have never lifted weights but have started to 3-5 days a week at least an hour with someone that knows what they are doing and is increasing it incrementally... some cardio (meaning every day 10-20 minutes), weighing my food, condiments etc... that the only thing weight training will do for me at this point is maintain my existing muscle while loosing weight?
So if someone said to you as an example that while losing weight you could either
A. Lift weights and do as much as you can to preserve the muscle you do have while losing body fat
B. Not lift weights and lose body fat while losing muscle
You would choose B?
you also misunderstood... I dont find it helpful because I wasnt sure if lifting weights wile loosing did anything for me given all the arguing back and forth.... How can one find it helpful when there is no consensus?... However, I think I got it. I should lift while trying to lose because I will maintain muscle and just overall be stronger!! Also... I am here to learn that is why I am asking ..thank you for your reply
The bold is consensus.
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Yep, I follow and I agree. I would add that variation exists between individuals as far as the point where gains taper off and how much of a "deficit" prevents muscle growth.LiftAllThePizzas wrote: »And something akin to this (body fat releasing enough to make total available energy greater than TDEE) has to happen in order for newbie gains to occur. (Does anyone know the actual explanation for newbie gains?)
In my opinion, "noob gains" aren't real. They're an artifact of a sedentary society, and only represent a kind of making up for lost time because we're starting from an unexpectedly low level of muscular fitness. It's the body fighting to return to "normal".
Take a 21 year old male who's been slinging hay bales on mom's farm for the past 18 years, drop his lean, strong body into a gym, and you won't see much, if any, noob gains.
I think some of this discussion is getting lost in the cracks between local and global. The body can be at a deficit overall, and at a surplus locally. If someone is eating right at maintenance - and they hit the weights (or go running or whatever) - the muscles being hit will metabolize fat stores local to the muscle itself for additional fuel. It's not all adipose - some of this is intramuscular fat, which is precisely what it's there for (it can be a looooong way from the middle of a big muscle to the nearest large fat deposit!)
So the local muscles can be in a surplus, while the overall body is not.
(ETA: As a side note, burning intramuscular fat is incredibly inefficient in terms of oxygen usage - which is part of why lifting heavy comes with so much huffing and puffing even though the body's not really going anywhere.)
If you do the thought experiment and drop intake 1 calorie at a time, it should be clear that situations exist where the overall body is at a deficit but a specific muscular region can be at a surplus. It should also be clear that there comes a point where the overall deficit overwhelms the ability of any individual region to compensate, so there will be a deficit level at which even noob gains become impossible.
BUT...if you are eating back those exercise calories you won't be at maintenance anymore, you'll be at surplus!
Follow?
The body isn't one system - it's a bunch of linked systems working independently while taking cues off of each other.
ETA: This is why a properly executed PSFM works so well...it walks the line of maximum local fat metabolization to prevent (significant) toasting of lean body mass.
It's like a Rube Goldberg machine made out of trillions of intertwined Rube Goldberg machines.The body isn't one system - it's a bunch of linked systems working independently while taking cues off of each other.
This is why "deficit" needs to be taken in context, because if you take the body as "one system" then growth of anything in a deficit doesn't make sense. 0 -
Reading though all these discussions doesnt help anyone new btw. It is kind of discouraging ..because it doesn’t seem anyone has a concrete answer … just a lot of arguing and opposing views
Here's the thing - what we argue about on here doesn't really matter. Assuming you'd like to lose some weight, if you go out there and run a small deficit and lift heavy, you may not be able to predict exactly what will happen.
But you can be confident that you are maximizing your body's chance to improve itself in multiple ways - and in the end that's really all you can do.
:drinker:
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Good point.Reading though all these discussions doesnt help anyone new btw. It is kind of discouraging ..because it doesn’t seem anyone has a concrete answer … just a lot of arguing and opposing views
But you can be confident that you are maximizing your body's chance to improve itself in multiple ways - and in the end that's really all you can do.
:drinker:
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Yep. And while the number on the scale might drop a bit slower, it will be because you're not losing precious muscle. You will look and feel much better, and be much more satisfied with the results, and be more likely to maintain your results.yopeeps025 wrote: »
However, I think I got it. I should lift while trying to lose because I will maintain muscle and just overall be stronger!!
I have to disagree with you. Reading conversations like this does help people, especially people that want to learn. We can all learn things from conversations like this. It's up to the individual that wants to learn to do some research as well if they want more answers.Reading though all these discussions doesnt help anyone new btw. It is kind of discouraging ..because it doesn’t seem anyone has a concrete answer … just a lot of arguing and opposing views
Ok so just to make this clear to myself from the 5 pages I just read ...because I have never lifted weights but have started to 3-5 days a week at least an hour with someone that knows what they are doing and is increasing it incrementally... some cardio (meaning every day 10-20 minutes), weighing my food, condiments etc... that the only thing weight training will do for me at this point is maintain my existing muscle while loosing weight?
So if someone said to you as an example that while losing weight you could either
A. Lift weights and do as much as you can to preserve the muscle you do have while losing body fat
B. Not lift weights and lose body fat while losing muscle
You would choose B?
you also misunderstood... I dont find it helpful because I wasnt sure if lifting weights wile loosing did anything for me given all the arguing back and forth.... How can one find it helpful when there is no consensus?... However, I think I got it. I should lift while trying to lose because I will maintain muscle and just overall be stronger!! Also... I am here to learn that is why I am asking ..thank you for your reply
The bold is consensus.0 -
Reading though all these discussions doesnt help anyone new btw. It is kind of discouraging ..because it doesn’t seem anyone has a concrete answer … just a lot of arguing and opposing views
Ok so just to make this clear to myself from the 5 pages I just read ...because I have never lifted weights but have started to 3-5 days a week at least an hour with someone that knows what they are doing and is increasing it incrementally... some cardio (meaning every day 10-20 minutes), weighing my food, condiments etc... that the only thing weight training will do for me at this point is maintain my existing muscle while loosing weight?
I don't see how a discussion that can impart more knowledge on you is discouraging.
If you are new to lifting and you start a lifting program you should have some newbie gains, at the least, you will preserve existing muscle, lose body fat, add strength, and look great; how is that discouraging?0 -
Reading though all these discussions doesnt help anyone new btw. It is kind of discouraging ..because it doesn’t seem anyone has a concrete answer … just a lot of arguing and opposing views
Ok so just to make this clear to myself from the 5 pages I just read ...because I have never lifted weights but have started to 3-5 days a week at least an hour with someone that knows what they are doing and is increasing it incrementally... some cardio (meaning every day 10-20 minutes), weighing my food, condiments etc... that the only thing weight training will do for me at this point is maintain my existing muscle while loosing weight?
I don't see how a discussion that can impart more knowledge on you is discouraging.
If you are new to lifting and you start a lifting program you should have some newbie gains, at the least, you will preserve existing muscle, lose body fat, add strength, and look great; how is that discouraging?
can't build muscle maybe? That is what people who don't know think weight training automatically does right?
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