it is probably not "muscle"
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LiftAllThePizzas wrote: »And something akin to this (body fat releasing enough to make total available energy greater than TDEE) has to happen in order for newbie gains to occur. (Does anyone know the actual explanation for newbie gains?)
In my opinion, "noob gains" aren't real. They're an artifact of a sedentary society, and only represent a kind of making up for lost time because we're starting from an unexpectedly low level of muscular fitness. It's the body fighting to return to "normal".
Take a 21 year old male who's been slinging hay bales on mom's farm for the past 18 years, drop his lean, strong body into a gym, and you won't see much, if any, noob gains.
I think some of this discussion is getting lost in the cracks between local and global. The body can be at a deficit overall, and at a surplus locally. If someone is eating right at maintenance - and they hit the weights (or go running or whatever) - the muscles being hit will metabolize fat stores local to the muscle itself for additional fuel. It's not all adipose - some of this is intramuscular fat, which is precisely what it's there for (it can be a looooong way from the middle of a big muscle to the nearest large fat deposit!)
So the local muscles can be in a surplus, while the overall body is not.
(ETA: As a side note, burning intramuscular fat is incredibly inefficient in terms of oxygen usage - which is part of why lifting heavy comes with so much huffing and puffing even though the body's not really going anywhere.)
If you do the thought experiment and drop intake 1 calorie at a time, it should be clear that situations exist where the overall body is at a deficit but a specific muscular region can be at a surplus. It should also be clear that there comes a point where the overall deficit overwhelms the ability of any individual region to compensate, so there will be a deficit level at which even noob gains become impossible.
BUT...if you are eating back those exercise calories you won't be at maintenance anymore, you'll be at surplus!
Follow?
The body isn't one system - it's a bunch of linked systems working independently while taking cues off of each other.
ETA: This is why a properly executed PSFM works so well...it walks the line of maximum local fat metabolization to prevent (significant) toasting of lean body mass.
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yopeeps025 wrote: »Reading though all these discussions doesnt help anyone new btw. It is kind of discouraging ..because it doesn’t seem anyone has a concrete answer … just a lot of arguing and opposing views
Ok so just to make this clear to myself from the 5 pages I just read ...because I have never lifted weights but have started to 3-5 days a week at least an hour with someone that knows what they are doing and is increasing it incrementally... some cardio (meaning every day 10-20 minutes), weighing my food, condiments etc... that the only thing weight training will do for me at this point is maintain my existing muscle while loosing weight?
So knowing that discourages you from lifting. Do you know how it is to lose weight with losing a lot of Lean Body Mass. That's not fun and you might have a higher body fat% then before the weight you lost.
I have done the wrong way to lose weight. I looked like *kitten* and everyone thought I looked so good. So I stopped and blew up to my heaviest weight ever.
Sorry I dont understand your answer... what discourages me from lifting weights is that I dont have a concrete answer as to why I should continue doing it while I am trying to lose weight. Should I just concentrate on cardio and lose weight and forget lifting until I want to build muscle/and or tone? Especially since I see crazy fluctioantions in my weight as much as 5 lbs in a day... which apparently shouldnt be attributed to lifting weights...0 -
yopeeps025 wrote: »Reading though all these discussions doesnt help anyone new btw. It is kind of discouraging ..because it doesn’t seem anyone has a concrete answer … just a lot of arguing and opposing views
Ok so just to make this clear to myself from the 5 pages I just read ...because I have never lifted weights but have started to 3-5 days a week at least an hour with someone that knows what they are doing and is increasing it incrementally... some cardio (meaning every day 10-20 minutes), weighing my food, condiments etc... that the only thing weight training will do for me at this point is maintain my existing muscle while loosing weight?
So knowing that discourages you from lifting. Do you know how it is to lose weight with losing a lot of Lean Body Mass. That's not fun and you might have a higher body fat% then before the weight you lost.
I have done the wrong way to lose weight. I looked like *kitten* and everyone thought I looked so good. So I stopped and blew up to my heaviest weight ever.
Sorry I dont understand your answer... what discourages me from lifting weights is that I dont have a concrete answer as to why I should continue doing it while I am trying to lose weight. Should I just concentrate on cardio and lose weight and forget lifting until I want to build muscle/and or tone? Especially since I see crazy fluctioantions in my weight as much as 5 lbs in a day... which apparently shouldnt be attributed to lifting weights...
Doing some kind of resistance training preserves muscle mass...when you diet and you don't work those muscles, you will lose both muscle and fat...ideally, you would want to lose as little muscle mass as possible.
It is much easier to preserve what you have than to lose it and then have to build it again.
Also, 5Lbs day to day fluctuations are completely normal...body weight isn't static...you don't weigh exactly XXX Lbs. I can easily fluctuate 3-5 Lbs day to day depending on water retention/release, more/less waste in my system at weigh in, etc.0 -
I have to disagree with you. Reading conversations like this does help people, especially people that want to learn. We can all learn things from conversations like this. It's up to the individual that wants to learn to do some research as well if they want more answers.Reading though all these discussions doesnt help anyone new btw. It is kind of discouraging ..because it doesn’t seem anyone has a concrete answer … just a lot of arguing and opposing views
Ok so just to make this clear to myself from the 5 pages I just read ...because I have never lifted weights but have started to 3-5 days a week at least an hour with someone that knows what they are doing and is increasing it incrementally... some cardio (meaning every day 10-20 minutes), weighing my food, condiments etc... that the only thing weight training will do for me at this point is maintain my existing muscle while loosing weight?
So if someone said to you as an example that while losing weight you could either
A. Lift weights and do as much as you can to preserve the muscle you do have while losing body fat
B. Not lift weights and lose body fat while losing muscle
You would choose B?
you also misunderstood... I dont find it helpful because I wasnt sure if lifting weights wile loosing did anything for me given all the arguing back and forth.... How can one find it helpful when there is no consensus?... However, I think I got it. I should lift while trying to lose because I will maintain muscle and just overall be stronger!! Also... I am here to learn that is why I am asking ..thank you for your reply
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Wanted to add...the body isn't a static system, either. "Maintenance" changes day to day, even under conditions where the activity level is constant. Because of that, there is a very strong mathematical argument for some degree of caloric and macro cycling - if you yo-yo by, say, 20%, you will hit optimum intake more often than if you stay at one level all the time.
For anyone interested in chasing down the math, it's similar to dose-response issues, where the optimum intake of a drug isn't the recommended dosage, it's alternating between taking a bit too much and taking a bit too little (averaging out to "recommended" over time).
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cwolfman13 wrote: »yopeeps025 wrote: »Reading though all these discussions doesnt help anyone new btw. It is kind of discouraging ..because it doesn’t seem anyone has a concrete answer … just a lot of arguing and opposing views
Ok so just to make this clear to myself from the 5 pages I just read ...because I have never lifted weights but have started to 3-5 days a week at least an hour with someone that knows what they are doing and is increasing it incrementally... some cardio (meaning every day 10-20 minutes), weighing my food, condiments etc... that the only thing weight training will do for me at this point is maintain my existing muscle while loosing weight?
So knowing that discourages you from lifting. Do you know how it is to lose weight with losing a lot of Lean Body Mass. That's not fun and you might have a higher body fat% then before the weight you lost.
I have done the wrong way to lose weight. I looked like *kitten* and everyone thought I looked so good. So I stopped and blew up to my heaviest weight ever.
Sorry I dont understand your answer... what discourages me from lifting weights is that I dont have a concrete answer as to why I should continue doing it while I am trying to lose weight. Should I just concentrate on cardio and lose weight and forget lifting until I want to build muscle/and or tone? Especially since I see crazy fluctioantions in my weight as much as 5 lbs in a day... which apparently shouldnt be attributed to lifting weights...
Doing some kind of resistance training preserves muscle mass...when you diet and you don't work those muscles, you will lose both muscle and fat...ideally, you would want to lose as little muscle mass as possible.
It is much easier to preserve what you have than to lose it and then have to build it again.
Also, 5Lbs day to day fluctuations are completely normal...body weight isn't static...you don't weigh exactly XXX Lbs. I can easily fluctuate 3-5 Lbs day to day depending on water retention/release, more/less waste in my system at weigh in, etc.
ok great.. thank you! This is what I needed to know0 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »yopeeps025 wrote: »Reading though all these discussions doesnt help anyone new btw. It is kind of discouraging ..because it doesn’t seem anyone has a concrete answer … just a lot of arguing and opposing views
Ok so just to make this clear to myself from the 5 pages I just read ...because I have never lifted weights but have started to 3-5 days a week at least an hour with someone that knows what they are doing and is increasing it incrementally... some cardio (meaning every day 10-20 minutes), weighing my food, condiments etc... that the only thing weight training will do for me at this point is maintain my existing muscle while loosing weight?
So knowing that discourages you from lifting. Do you know how it is to lose weight with losing a lot of Lean Body Mass. That's not fun and you might have a higher body fat% then before the weight you lost.
I have done the wrong way to lose weight. I looked like *kitten* and everyone thought I looked so good. So I stopped and blew up to my heaviest weight ever.
Sorry I dont understand your answer... what discourages me from lifting weights is that I dont have a concrete answer as to why I should continue doing it while I am trying to lose weight. Should I just concentrate on cardio and lose weight and forget lifting until I want to build muscle/and or tone? Especially since I see crazy fluctioantions in my weight as much as 5 lbs in a day... which apparently shouldnt be attributed to lifting weights...
Doing some kind of resistance training preserves muscle mass...when you diet and you don't work those muscles, you will lose both muscle and fat...ideally, you would want to lose as little muscle mass as possible.
It is much easier to preserve what you have than to lose it and then have to build it again.
Also, 5Lbs day to day fluctuations are completely normal...body weight isn't static...you don't weigh exactly XXX Lbs. I can easily fluctuate 3-5 Lbs day to day depending on water retention/release, more/less waste in my system at weigh in, etc.
^this
I don't believe there is any dispute whatsoever about the effectiveness and benefits of resistance training while in a deficit...or while at maintenance or a surplus. That anyone would use it as an excuse not to is not (IMHO) the fault of those having a conversation about this particular nuance of the process.0 -
I have to disagree with you. Reading conversations like this does help people, especially people that want to learn. We can all learn things from conversations like this. It's up to the individual that wants to learn to do some research as well if they want more answers.Reading though all these discussions doesnt help anyone new btw. It is kind of discouraging ..because it doesn’t seem anyone has a concrete answer … just a lot of arguing and opposing views
Ok so just to make this clear to myself from the 5 pages I just read ...because I have never lifted weights but have started to 3-5 days a week at least an hour with someone that knows what they are doing and is increasing it incrementally... some cardio (meaning every day 10-20 minutes), weighing my food, condiments etc... that the only thing weight training will do for me at this point is maintain my existing muscle while loosing weight?
So if someone said to you as an example that while losing weight you could either
A. Lift weights and do as much as you can to preserve the muscle you do have while losing body fat
B. Not lift weights and lose body fat while losing muscle
You would choose B?
you also misunderstood... I dont find it helpful because I wasnt sure if lifting weights wile loosing did anything for me given all the arguing back and forth.... How can one find it helpful when there is no consensus?... However, I think I got it. I should lift while trying to lose because I will maintain muscle and just overall be stronger!! Also... I am here to learn that is why I am asking ..thank you for your reply
The bold is consensus.
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Yep, I follow and I agree. I would add that variation exists between individuals as far as the point where gains taper off and how much of a "deficit" prevents muscle growth.LiftAllThePizzas wrote: »And something akin to this (body fat releasing enough to make total available energy greater than TDEE) has to happen in order for newbie gains to occur. (Does anyone know the actual explanation for newbie gains?)
In my opinion, "noob gains" aren't real. They're an artifact of a sedentary society, and only represent a kind of making up for lost time because we're starting from an unexpectedly low level of muscular fitness. It's the body fighting to return to "normal".
Take a 21 year old male who's been slinging hay bales on mom's farm for the past 18 years, drop his lean, strong body into a gym, and you won't see much, if any, noob gains.
I think some of this discussion is getting lost in the cracks between local and global. The body can be at a deficit overall, and at a surplus locally. If someone is eating right at maintenance - and they hit the weights (or go running or whatever) - the muscles being hit will metabolize fat stores local to the muscle itself for additional fuel. It's not all adipose - some of this is intramuscular fat, which is precisely what it's there for (it can be a looooong way from the middle of a big muscle to the nearest large fat deposit!)
So the local muscles can be in a surplus, while the overall body is not.
(ETA: As a side note, burning intramuscular fat is incredibly inefficient in terms of oxygen usage - which is part of why lifting heavy comes with so much huffing and puffing even though the body's not really going anywhere.)
If you do the thought experiment and drop intake 1 calorie at a time, it should be clear that situations exist where the overall body is at a deficit but a specific muscular region can be at a surplus. It should also be clear that there comes a point where the overall deficit overwhelms the ability of any individual region to compensate, so there will be a deficit level at which even noob gains become impossible.
BUT...if you are eating back those exercise calories you won't be at maintenance anymore, you'll be at surplus!
Follow?
The body isn't one system - it's a bunch of linked systems working independently while taking cues off of each other.
ETA: This is why a properly executed PSFM works so well...it walks the line of maximum local fat metabolization to prevent (significant) toasting of lean body mass.
It's like a Rube Goldberg machine made out of trillions of intertwined Rube Goldberg machines.The body isn't one system - it's a bunch of linked systems working independently while taking cues off of each other.
This is why "deficit" needs to be taken in context, because if you take the body as "one system" then growth of anything in a deficit doesn't make sense. 0 -
Reading though all these discussions doesnt help anyone new btw. It is kind of discouraging ..because it doesn’t seem anyone has a concrete answer … just a lot of arguing and opposing views
Here's the thing - what we argue about on here doesn't really matter. Assuming you'd like to lose some weight, if you go out there and run a small deficit and lift heavy, you may not be able to predict exactly what will happen.
But you can be confident that you are maximizing your body's chance to improve itself in multiple ways - and in the end that's really all you can do.
:drinker:
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Good point.Reading though all these discussions doesnt help anyone new btw. It is kind of discouraging ..because it doesn’t seem anyone has a concrete answer … just a lot of arguing and opposing views
But you can be confident that you are maximizing your body's chance to improve itself in multiple ways - and in the end that's really all you can do.
:drinker:
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Yep. And while the number on the scale might drop a bit slower, it will be because you're not losing precious muscle. You will look and feel much better, and be much more satisfied with the results, and be more likely to maintain your results.yopeeps025 wrote: »
However, I think I got it. I should lift while trying to lose because I will maintain muscle and just overall be stronger!!
I have to disagree with you. Reading conversations like this does help people, especially people that want to learn. We can all learn things from conversations like this. It's up to the individual that wants to learn to do some research as well if they want more answers.Reading though all these discussions doesnt help anyone new btw. It is kind of discouraging ..because it doesn’t seem anyone has a concrete answer … just a lot of arguing and opposing views
Ok so just to make this clear to myself from the 5 pages I just read ...because I have never lifted weights but have started to 3-5 days a week at least an hour with someone that knows what they are doing and is increasing it incrementally... some cardio (meaning every day 10-20 minutes), weighing my food, condiments etc... that the only thing weight training will do for me at this point is maintain my existing muscle while loosing weight?
So if someone said to you as an example that while losing weight you could either
A. Lift weights and do as much as you can to preserve the muscle you do have while losing body fat
B. Not lift weights and lose body fat while losing muscle
You would choose B?
you also misunderstood... I dont find it helpful because I wasnt sure if lifting weights wile loosing did anything for me given all the arguing back and forth.... How can one find it helpful when there is no consensus?... However, I think I got it. I should lift while trying to lose because I will maintain muscle and just overall be stronger!! Also... I am here to learn that is why I am asking ..thank you for your reply
The bold is consensus.0 -
Reading though all these discussions doesnt help anyone new btw. It is kind of discouraging ..because it doesn’t seem anyone has a concrete answer … just a lot of arguing and opposing views
Ok so just to make this clear to myself from the 5 pages I just read ...because I have never lifted weights but have started to 3-5 days a week at least an hour with someone that knows what they are doing and is increasing it incrementally... some cardio (meaning every day 10-20 minutes), weighing my food, condiments etc... that the only thing weight training will do for me at this point is maintain my existing muscle while loosing weight?
I don't see how a discussion that can impart more knowledge on you is discouraging.
If you are new to lifting and you start a lifting program you should have some newbie gains, at the least, you will preserve existing muscle, lose body fat, add strength, and look great; how is that discouraging?0 -
Reading though all these discussions doesnt help anyone new btw. It is kind of discouraging ..because it doesn’t seem anyone has a concrete answer … just a lot of arguing and opposing views
Ok so just to make this clear to myself from the 5 pages I just read ...because I have never lifted weights but have started to 3-5 days a week at least an hour with someone that knows what they are doing and is increasing it incrementally... some cardio (meaning every day 10-20 minutes), weighing my food, condiments etc... that the only thing weight training will do for me at this point is maintain my existing muscle while loosing weight?
I don't see how a discussion that can impart more knowledge on you is discouraging.
If you are new to lifting and you start a lifting program you should have some newbie gains, at the least, you will preserve existing muscle, lose body fat, add strength, and look great; how is that discouraging?
can't build muscle maybe? That is what people who don't know think weight training automatically does right?
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I don't think posting "you're not gaining muscle" is the best tack when a new dieter comes to post that they're not losing at the rate they think they should because (1) they could be, they're new to it after all and (2) inflammation/water.
Whether your muscles are gaining weight due to adding new tissue or more water, the bottom line to the newbie is the same-- ignore the scale for the first couple months and soldier on.
Telling them "it's not muscle" implies "it's your diet, change it". Also it suggests they can't improve their body or health through strength training while dieting. Also it ignores that it could well be muscle. Well, that and normal water weight fluctuations.
But it's not so black and white that people should always be posting "it's not muscle if you're in a deficit", and feel like they're spreading some universal truth that is helpful.0 -
WalkingAlong wrote: »Telling them "it's not muscle" implies "it's your diet, change it".
The challenge is that the vast majority of the time, it's the correct advice in those situations. Getting logging right is non-trivial, and a depressingly large majority of people don't get it right when they're starting out.
Telling them to "soldier on" in that situation is just going to lead to a lot of frustration that can be avoided by a 30 second walk through the diaries.
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WalkingAlong wrote: »I don't think posting "you're not gaining muscle" is the best tack when a new dieter comes to post that they're not losing at the rate they think they should because (1) they could be, they're new to it after all and (2) inflammation/water.
Typically the topic is never even broached, until someone comes in to one of those threads (you know the ones..."I'm only eating 1,000 calories a day and burning of 800 calories by going for a 20 minute walk every day but I'm not losing weight") and tells the OP that they're probably "building muscle." THAT is the situation OP is trying to address.
It's incredibly uncommon to find a thread where an OP is eating a reasonable calorie allowance, doing some resistance training, and logging accurately. In those threads, I'd say your exceptions could easily apply.
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I see it all the time-- Someone is doing everything 'right'... following MFP's calorie rec, exercising, and not losing weight.0
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