Running, when to stop?
LiftAllThePizzas
Posts: 17,857 Member
I did c25K last year and ran a 5K in September. After that I started using Higdon's 10K intermediate program. I got a few weeks into it but then it hit the point where I was supposed to run 5.5 or 6 miles. I can do 5k easily, and 4 miles too. But every time I get over 5 miles I start hitting a wall. It's not pain and I'm not "tired" or out of breath or anything, but my legs are not happy with it anymore. Like my hips, knees, ankles, and the bottoms of my feet are all acting like they're going to be mighty unpleasant to be around if I continue.
In the past I would have ignored it and followed the plan, (and maybe end up crippled for the rest of the week/month) but in my old age I've finally started to get a clue that you can, like, hurt yourself sometimes.
But I'm really not familiar with this type of training, so my question is, is this something I should just push through, it's just a normal part of adding mileage and my body will adapt? Or is this a sign that I really do need to stop at that point to avoid doing real damage?
In the past I would have ignored it and followed the plan, (and maybe end up crippled for the rest of the week/month) but in my old age I've finally started to get a clue that you can, like, hurt yourself sometimes.
But I'm really not familiar with this type of training, so my question is, is this something I should just push through, it's just a normal part of adding mileage and my body will adapt? Or is this a sign that I really do need to stop at that point to avoid doing real damage?
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Replies
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Whether it's a run-through-it pain or a damn-I'd-better-stop-now pain ... I don't have any help on that. At some point, you just know. Maybe someone else will be better help with that.
However, I can tell you that - to me - it sounds like you could need better shoes - maybe better arch support. It's the "bottom of the feet" comment on up the chain to your hips that makes me think perhaps it would be helpful to get some good, local advice on running shoes. If you aren't supported enough in the arches, then your knees are going to naturally fall inward and your hips will tilt forward - it's all connected. After a while, this imbalance is going to take its toll. I bought a new pair of shoes once and ran only once before I knew they were not the right shoe for me. Runners: we only have one piece of equipment. Make sure they're right!
If your head is ready but your legs are like, "nah, we're good ...," I would not push your body until you explore why your legs are so "done" by Mile 5.
On the other hand, if your mind is playing games with you (and only you know that), then I reverse my advice - but it doesn't sound like that's what's happening.
You're going to get great advice.0 -
I was going to suggest maybe a shoe issue as well. Have you been fitted at a running store, had your stride/gait analyzed to find the best shoe and fit? Some people swear by it, and it can make all the difference to be in the right shoe.0
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In addition to the shoes, you went from c25k which is a beginner plan to an intermediate 10k plan. Try Hals beginner 10k plan when you get new shoes0
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This is a good question. I'm in a similar boat as you OP. I get some numbness in the arches after 5 miles. I have a great shoe (fitted at the running store after running on the treadmill both in shoes and barefoot for them). The last time I went in they said that I have a super high arch so I might want to consider an insert on the longer runs. I've been against that.0
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Thanks so far!
Additional relevant info: I just got new shoes at the running store, last fall they had looked at my stride etc on the treadmill and fitted me for shoes. I came back yesterday and tried out those, as well as a couple other similar types. I have been running in some comfy New Balance running shoes, and vibrams fivefingers in the meantime, and it's pretty much the same story regardless of the shoes.0 -
are you mixing up your running routes?0
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How's the cushioning on the New Balance? I know a lot of people who love their vibrams but their feet get killed as the distances get longer.
Other question - when you run 5 miles, how do you feel the day after? Achy and terrible? Tight like you're going to snap? Or fine? If fine, it may be all just a mental thing.0 -
I also notice a difference between *cardio* fitness and *muscle* fitness when it comes to running. Generally my lungs and heart are in great shape to go farther, faster, and my legs wimp out with various aches, pains, injuries, and other protests if I try to run to my cardio fitness. Or: have you tried slowing down your pace a little? Does that help you break the distance wall?0
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Oh my gosh I love this thread. This is all such great advice and I'm relating to so much.0
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I've been running on an indoor track this winter. (Before that I was running in my yard where I have 1/8, 1/4 and 1/2 mile routes as well as running on the ATV trails around the neighboring cornfields.)
The New Balance seem to be a decent amount of cushion, I've never been one for really thick shoes though.
I haven't been really hurting or sore the day after a run.0 -
Okay ... could you mix up your pace a bit? On a day that you know you want to run ... say, 6 miles ... run talk-to-your-neighbor slow for a mile, kick it until the next lamppost (or whatever that's about 100 meters away), then back to a very conversational pace, repeat. Maybe it's a matter of breaking your routine? Trick your body - mix it up.0
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Thoughts:
I find the 'build' portion of any training scheme is pretty uncomfortable, ie when you're exceeding your previous comfort levels. Usually results in a few visits to masseurs and physios to loosen tight muscles. Then you plateau and it becomes about getting faster.
There's no 'right' way to get to your running target. Training plans are training PLANS not training 'you must do this or you will fail'.
While it's hard to do (and I'm guilty of not doing this) if you need to back off to avoid injury, back off to avoid injury. I bridged up from 5 to 10km and managed the hard parts by running 9 minutes, walking 1 min - gave enough time for the body to calm down!
You didn't mention what's involved in the training - is it the long runs which are hurting? Or shorter runs with high intensity? If the former, then maybe drop your pace back till you're comfortable at the long distance, then increase.
What are you doing post-run? It may help to ice the feet / area to reduce discomfort. Also foam rollers and 'The Stick' can help release some muscles and give good relief. My achilles are frequently sore, but it's caused by calf and ITB tightness rather than the achilles itself; foam rolling minimises the discomfort.0 -
It's the long runs that are the problem. I don't really have soreness or aching the next day so other than a few seconds of stretching I do nothing post run.
I do have a hard time keeping a slower pace. There's also a gap between my walking and running speeds.
I might try some run/walk to keep like an 11-12 minute pace and see if that helps. Ugh it's going to make 6 miles take forever though.
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Ah. Is there anyone you could partner with - someone with more running depth who would be willing to guide you to the next level? Maybe it is a mind issue ... bored? Are you listening to music? Take a run in a previously unexplored area? Or - and I'm a loner, so it pains me to suggest - find a running partner. Talk. Get distracted. Reach 6 miles unexpectedly.0
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Yeah that sounds more painful than anything, LOL. (I listen to a metronome and enjoy my quiet "no interruptions, no demands" time while running.)Ah. Is there anyone you could partner with - someone with more running depth who would be willing to guide you to the next level? Maybe it is a mind issue ... bored? Are you listening to music? Take a run in a previously unexplored area? Or - and I'm a loner, so it pains me to suggest - find a running partner. Talk. Get distracted. Reach 6 miles unexpectedly.
Based on all the "are you sore the next day" questions, it really sounds like I'm being overly cautious and just need to push through it.0 -
LiftAllThePizzas wrote: »
Yeah that sounds more painful than anything, LOL. (I listen to a metronome and enjoy my quiet "no interruptions, no demands" time while running.)Ah. Is there anyone you could partner with - someone with more running depth who would be willing to guide you to the next level? Maybe it is a mind issue ... bored? Are you listening to music? Take a run in a previously unexplored area? Or - and I'm a loner, so it pains me to suggest - find a running partner. Talk. Get distracted. Reach 6 miles unexpectedly.
Based on all the "are you sore the next day" questions, it really sounds like I'm being overly cautious and just need to push through it.
Great - good luck and let us know how it goes!!
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I get mighty uncomfortable around mile 5.5-6.5- I hit a mini wall around 3ish- where I'm like- man this isn't fun (I run much faster for shorter distances- so if I'm only doing 4- by 2-2.5 I'm like THIS SUCKS- and it's just an over all tired.
But long runs- that 5-6 mile range I get REAL uncomfortable- and I just slow down- moderate and keep driving on. By the time I come out the other side I'm usually okay.
But everyone has a point where their body is like FK THIS SHT. And throws the yellow doily of shame to try to stop the play.0 -
Really hard to diagnose something like this in this setting, but a few thoughts that came to my mind as I've read through the thread...
- building is naturally going to be uncomfortable. So hitting point where you struggle is normal. This is often as much mental as it is physical.
- you mention having your stride looked at by a running store. Was that simply to find a proper shoe? Have you ever had your mechanics/technique looked at?
- you describe your discomfort as being joint related, not fatigue or energy. This makes me wonder if it's related to repetitive jarring/impact. I had lower back problem at one point due to poor mechanics. I still do when my form gets sloppy as I get tired on longer runs, but improving my mechanics has made a HUGE difference. If you're in a minimal shoe, it could exacerbate the problem. Any difference when running on road vs running on grass/dirt vs running on a track/treadmill?
- I also agree with the previous poster who suggested caution. Taking a month off to recover is MUCH better than taking a year off to heal.
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But everyone has a point where their body is like FK THIS SHT. And throws the yellow doily of shame to try to stop the play.
LOL ... If it didn't sound so creepy, I would start keeping a list of your phrases and toss them out occasionally at my teenagers. They wouldn't know what to do with that. I love "yellow doily of shame..." [literally lol at my desk] Hope you're released soon.0 -
I'd like to add a little note: if you're running regularly, shoes are meant to be replaced once every 6 months (500 miles) or so. It might be time for new shoes.0
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Once I got up to 4.5 to 5 miles in my 10K training, I started having hip issues. I limped for a couple of months. At that point, I switched to doing run/walk intervals. Typically, what happens is as you get tired, your form suffers and you can be prone to injuries. Taking walk breaks helps keep your form steady. I do 8 min run, 1 min walk and my hip issues went away. *Poof* Magic.0
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I used to hit a mental block after 4 miles, that's all I could really call it since there was nothing wrong with me, everything felt fine etc... I joined a running group and with them we slowly increased mileage and that has helped me push through that. I never really spoke to anyone while running but meeting up with the group a few times a week got me closer to attaining my goals. If you don't mind talking to people outside of your actual run, this is an option.0
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This is what I was told by my Sports Medicine physician....there is a difference between soreness and pain. If you have soreness, it is okay to push through. If you have pain, you should listen to your body and back off, cut your distance and/or take some rest days off. If the *pain* immediately resumes when you resume running, you should seek medical attention. If the pain is in your joints versus your muscles, there is probably a more concerning issue. Muscles can recoup with rest. You can hurt yourself or do damage to cartilage and joints. I myself had to give up running as it turned out my cartilage in hips and knees was virtually shot - but I can walk briskly and that is cool for me as I'm not ready for joint replacements yet. Listen to your body when it comes to PAIN.0
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like others have said, it could be a number of issues.
-could be shoe related. i know you said you got some new shoes, and that you don't want a shoe with a lot of cushion, and i was once the same. low drop shoes were what humans were meant to run in!! but the more miles i was putting in, the more i came to realize that i needed a bit more cushion on my feet. i currently run with a 6-8mm heel, after getting fitted at a running store.
-could be nutritionally related. about mile 5-6 is about an hour into your run, right? most people recommend taking in some kind of nutrition every 45-60 minutes in your long workouts. try taking some sports drink with you during your next run. (i usually do a 50/50 mix of gatorade and water)
-it might very well be mental, your mind exaggerating some signals from your body. if it is mental, i think i might be able to help you by asking you a simple question: why do you want to go past 6 miles? do you have a 10k or half marathon you are signed up for? if not, your mind can just subconsciously be telling you "hey!! there is no reason for us to be running any further than this!"0 -
It could be muscular. I am working on that problem currently myself. Sure, my primary leg muscles used for running could endure my longest runs, but my form would suffer because other muscles that are also engaged while running (but not primary) would fatigue and my form would suffer. I would wind up lumbering and shuffling along those last few miles. This bad form would cause strain on my hips, feet and knees. As I kept building to longer and longer runs, these "secondary" muscles would still fatigue around mile 5 or 6 (for myself) and then I would spend those last few miles beating my body up. the only real endurance I was building was the ability to trudge through it to the point of eventual injury. It was my core, glutes and hip flexors that were weak in my case.
I have been doing a total body resistance workout plan (You Are Your Own Gym), but giving a little added focus to the Core and Legs portion. I also still run, and work to fit them in. Some days my "Core and Legs" routine is a long run. Other days I do a "Push" or "Pull" routine and add in some interval runs or a tempo run. Some days (like this morning) I do a Push or Pull routine, and the Legs + Core routine from the You Are Your Own Gym program. I try to keep a balance of each.
It is making quite a difference. I am running faster, and also making it through 8 miles at this point before hitting that point where my form starts to deteriorate.
The goal for me now is to continue building miles, but make all of those miles with good running form.0 -
If it's not pain, and you're not tired, not numb either, I'd push through. Slow down if you want to, though I find that makes it worse. When I'm 'done', I want to hurry up and really BE done!
My guess is it's mental. You're used to running that distance, and subconsciously you're prepared to stop. You're probably going to find that to be the case for every long run where you increase mileage. For me, it was usually about a mile before the end where I was just suddenly 'done' even though I wasn't winded or super tired.0 -
- I'm doing a Tough Mudder in about 7 weeks which is why I want to be able to add distance. (I know I can walk if needed and I will need to, but I still want as much endurance as I can add with a reasonable effort.)
- I also do barbell strength training, and diving.
- I would definitely stop if there were any pain. I wouldn't risk not being able to dive anymore.
I'll have to check out the nutrition angle too. Hadn't considered that.0 -
How do you fuel before your runs? Also, how do you schedule your runs and your strength training? I don't want to assume that you don't try and do your long run the day after squats or deads, but still, worth mentioning.
Also, for a tough mudder, if you can run 8 miles straight, you're good.0 -
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But everyone has a point where their body is like FK THIS SHT. And throws the yellow doily of shame to try to stop the play.
LOL ... If it didn't sound so creepy, I would start keeping a list of your phrases and toss them out occasionally at my teenagers. They wouldn't know what to do with that. I love "yellow doily of shame..." [literally lol at my desk] Hope you're released soon.
Doooo eeeeeeeeeeeeettttttttttttttt
better- yet- get a yellow doily of shame and throw it and yell at them FLAG ON THE PLAY FLAG ON THE PLAY!!!!
- I aint mad at ya
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I all but stopped lifting during Jan/Feb, it didn't change things (other than making me slower.)
Same here.I love "yellow doily of shame..." [literally lol at my desk]
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