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Squats--1/2 way down or butt to ground? See pic
Replies
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Agree with DopeItUp - 1/2 squats (only to parallel) make you look like some D-bag.
Working on the flexibility to do the squat right is just part of the challenge. And of course you can 1/2 squat (go to parallel only) more - because you're doing exactly that, 1/2 the work.
I've learned if you think you're going to parallel, you're probably above parallel. If you think you're just below parallel, you're probably actually only at parallel. And if you think you're A2G, you're probably really just some degree below parallel.
Squat to something to let your butt bump it at your desired depth to ensure you hit your goal depth (while ensuring proper form)0 -
Agree with DopeItUp - 1/2 squats (only to parallel) make you look like some D-bag.
Working on the flexibility to do the squat right is just part of the challenge. And of course you can 1/2 squat (go to parallel only) more - because you're doing exactly that, 1/2 the work.
I've learned if you think you're going to parallel, you're probably above parallel. If you think you're just below parallel, you're probably actually only at parallel. And if you think you're A2G, you're probably really just some degree below parallel.
Squat to something to let your butt bump it at your desired depth to ensure you hit your goal depth (while ensuring proper form)
lolok0 -
Read a recent study that notes there ARE indication of long term or short term injury or deterioration issues that can occur from going too far past parallel, as well as no additional activation of the muscle groups as well.
Summary:Overall, the squat exercise provides
substantial and well-researched bene-
fits. However, when considering the
value of the deep squat, the risks
appear to outweigh many of the
potential benefits. Most significantly,
patellofemoral injury does appear to be
associated with deep knee flexion,
which can predispose individuals to
osteoarthritic changes in the articular
cartilage beneath the patella. Also, it is
important to note that electromyo-
graphic activity across studies have
indicated that peak muscle activity in
the quadriceps, hamstrings, and gas-
trocnemius fall within the range of the
parallel squat and do not increase
beyond parallel of flexion. This sug-
gests that squatting below parallel will
not increase muscle activation. Finally,
consider what is functional for the
individual and the sport, if deep
squatting is not part of normal func-
tioning, it may not be contributing to
sport performance via specificity.
Are Deep Squats a Safe and Viable Exercise?
Brad Schoenfeld, MSc, and Mary Williams, MA
Exercise Science Department, CUNY Lehman College, Bronx, New York; and Athletic Training Education Program, Texas A&M University-Corpus Christi, Corpus Christi, Texas0 -
If you chose to front squat exclusively (and if you're not a PL, you could) then you could get plenty strong. Balance it out with decent posterior chain work and I don't see a problem.
No one (unless it is part of their sport) needs to do any lift.
Yeah I do deadlifts and RDLs and both heavy and mid-weight hip thrusts so I feel like I am covering my bases okay.0 -
Agree with DopeItUp - 1/2 squats (only to parallel) make you look like some D-bag.
Working on the flexibility to do the squat right is just part of the challenge. And of course you can 1/2 squat (go to parallel only) more - because you're doing exactly that, 1/2 the work.
I've learned if you think you're going to parallel, you're probably above parallel. If you think you're just below parallel, you're probably actually only at parallel. And if you think you're A2G, you're probably really just some degree below parallel.
Squat to something to let your butt bump it at your desired depth to ensure you hit your goal depth (while ensuring proper form)
Uhmm... D-bag?
Bit strong, isn't it?
0 -
If you chose to front squat exclusively (and if you're not a PL, you could) then you could get plenty strong. Balance it out with decent posterior chain work and I don't see a problem.
No one (unless it is part of their sport) needs to do any lift.
Yeah I do deadlifts and RDLs and both heavy and mid-weight hip thrusts so I feel like I am covering my bases okay.
Yeah, sounds solid to me.0 -
Agree with DopeItUp - 1/2 squats (only to parallel) make you look like some D-bag.
Working on the flexibility to do the squat right is just part of the challenge. And of course you can 1/2 squat (go to parallel only) more - because you're doing exactly that, 1/2 the work.
I've learned if you think you're going to parallel, you're probably above parallel. If you think you're just below parallel, you're probably actually only at parallel. And if you think you're A2G, you're probably really just some degree below parallel.
Squat to something to let your butt bump it at your desired depth to ensure you hit your goal depth (while ensuring proper form)
Squatting all the way to calves (true ATG) could result in spinal flexion.
I get why you are suggesting that people think they squat deeper than they really are, but I would suggest they record or get a mirror versus just "going deeper".
It's not necessary to go much past parallel. You may get greater glute activation, but the quad activation past parallel isn't greater. The greatest stress to the knees is between 60-80 degrees. Hitting 90 degrees (parallel) is just fine for most lifters.
I'd rather see people hit parallel with a solid weight than go ATG with spinal flexion.0 -
Agree with DopeItUp - 1/2 squats (only to parallel) make you look like some D-bag.
Working on the flexibility to do the squat right is just part of the challenge. And of course you can 1/2 squat (go to parallel only) more - because you're doing exactly that, 1/2 the work.
I've learned if you think you're going to parallel, you're probably above parallel. If you think you're just below parallel, you're probably actually only at parallel. And if you think you're A2G, you're probably really just some degree below parallel.
Squat to something to let your butt bump it at your desired depth to ensure you hit your goal depth (while ensuring proper form)
Uhmm... D-bag?
Bit strong, isn't it?
I've seen some guys go ATG and look horrible in the process.
Solid form to parallel is better than ego ATG.0 -
Agree with DopeItUp - 1/2 squats (only to parallel) make you look like some D-bag.
Working on the flexibility to do the squat right is just part of the challenge. And of course you can 1/2 squat (go to parallel only) more - because you're doing exactly that, 1/2 the work.
I've learned if you think you're going to parallel, you're probably above parallel. If you think you're just below parallel, you're probably actually only at parallel. And if you think you're A2G, you're probably really just some degree below parallel.
Squat to something to let your butt bump it at your desired depth to ensure you hit your goal depth (while ensuring proper form)
Uhmm... D-bag?
Bit strong, isn't it?
I've seen some guys go ATG and look horrible in the process.
Solid form to parallel is better than ego ATG.
Sure there's all kinds of horrible form out there, whatever type of squatting you do.
But calling someone a D-bag for squatting parallel seems a bit uncalled for, IMHO - that was my point.
0 -
Agree with DopeItUp - 1/2 squats (only to parallel) make you look like some D-bag.
Working on the flexibility to do the squat right is just part of the challenge. And of course you can 1/2 squat (go to parallel only) more - because you're doing exactly that, 1/2 the work.
I've learned if you think you're going to parallel, you're probably above parallel. If you think you're just below parallel, you're probably actually only at parallel. And if you think you're A2G, you're probably really just some degree below parallel.
Squat to something to let your butt bump it at your desired depth to ensure you hit your goal depth (while ensuring proper form)
Uhmm... D-bag?
Bit strong, isn't it?
I've seen some guys go ATG and look horrible in the process.
Solid form to parallel is better than ego ATG.
Sure there's all kinds of horrible form out there, whatever type of squatting you do.
But calling someone a D-bag for squatting parallel seems a bit uncalled for, IMHO - that was my point.
You're right. Calling someone a d-bag is uncalled for.
Powerlifters squat to parallel and not ATG, they aren't d-bags.0 -
Agree with DopeItUp - 1/2 squats (only to parallel) make you look like some D-bag.
Working on the flexibility to do the squat right is just part of the challenge. And of course you can 1/2 squat (go to parallel only) more - because you're doing exactly that, 1/2 the work.
I've learned if you think you're going to parallel, you're probably above parallel. If you think you're just below parallel, you're probably actually only at parallel. And if you think you're A2G, you're probably really just some degree below parallel.
Squat to something to let your butt bump it at your desired depth to ensure you hit your goal depth (while ensuring proper form)
Uhmm... D-bag?
Bit strong, isn't it?
I've seen some guys go ATG and look horrible in the process.
Solid form to parallel is better than ego ATG.
Sure there's all kinds of horrible form out there, whatever type of squatting you do.
But calling someone a D-bag for squatting parallel seems a bit uncalled for, IMHO - that was my point.
I don't think she is disagreeing with you.0 -
LolBroScience wrote: »Agree with DopeItUp - 1/2 squats (only to parallel) make you look like some D-bag.
Working on the flexibility to do the squat right is just part of the challenge. And of course you can 1/2 squat (go to parallel only) more - because you're doing exactly that, 1/2 the work.
I've learned if you think you're going to parallel, you're probably above parallel. If you think you're just below parallel, you're probably actually only at parallel. And if you think you're A2G, you're probably really just some degree below parallel.
Squat to something to let your butt bump it at your desired depth to ensure you hit your goal depth (while ensuring proper form)
Uhmm... D-bag?
Bit strong, isn't it?
I've seen some guys go ATG and look horrible in the process.
Solid form to parallel is better than ego ATG.
Sure there's all kinds of horrible form out there, whatever type of squatting you do.
But calling someone a D-bag for squatting parallel seems a bit uncalled for, IMHO - that was my point.
I don't think she is disagreeing with you.
Reading is hard and it's past my bedtime!0 -
I noticed a few people comment about having knee pain when squatting below parallel, but at or above parallel there are no problems.
The deeper you go, the more difficult it is to maintain external rotation. Once you lose external rotation, you lose knee stability - the knees collapse and no longer track over the toes correctly, then you get pain.
So most likely.. your strength at or above parallel is adequate enough to maintain external rotation/stability. But below parallel, which is more demanding, you are weak in that position and lose it.
But it may not be a strength/stability issue.. it could be a mobility issue or even both.
Bret Contreras has a great article on the subject:
http://bretcontreras.com/knee-valgus-valgus-collapse-glute-medius-strengthening-band-hip-abduction-exercises-and-ankle-dorsiflexion-drills/
0 -
I noticed a few people comment about having knee pain when squatting below parallel, but at or above parallel there are no problems.
The deeper you go, the more difficult it is to maintain external rotation. Once you lose external rotation, you lose knee stability - the knees collapse and no longer track over the toes correctly, then you get pain.
So most likely.. your strength at or above parallel is adequate enough to maintain external rotation/stability. But below parallel, which is more demanding, you are weak in that position and lose it.
But it may not be a strength/stability issue.. it could be a mobility issue or even both.
Bret Contreras has a great article on the subject:
http://bretcontreras.com/knee-valgus-valgus-collapse-glute-medius-strengthening-band-hip-abduction-exercises-and-ankle-dorsiflexion-drills/
That's good because I don't think most people realize how big of a role the ankle muscles (tibialis & calves basically) play the squat. I've actually seen EMG studies that show higher peak activation in the calves than in the quads during the concentric, rather interesting; I know would never have guessed that.
0 -
My husband has very tight hip flexors and longer femurs, and he's just uncomfortable with the squat motion in general, but he still tries none the less; I would hate to think that someone seeing him "1/2 squat" moderate weight while trying to work on mobility and flexibility would think he's a "D-bag," ..that's just ignorant.0
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My husband has very tight hip flexors and longer femurs, and he's just uncomfortable with the squat motion in general, but he still tries none the less; I would hate to think that someone seeing him "1/2 squat" moderate weight while trying to work on mobility and flexibility would think he's a "D-bag," ..that's just ignorant.
Nobody thinks that. Normally you get that label if you're lifting ridiculous amounts of weight with minimal ROM. Anything less than parallel defeats the purpose of the movement and puts MORE stress on the knees by leaving out the posterior chain muscles.
huffingtonpost.com/mark-rippetoe/squats-lifting-knees_b_4490749.html
stronglifts.com/10-tips-to-stop-your-knees-from-popping-and-cracking/
biomechfit.com/2012/02/09/3-squatting-myths-that-refuse-to-die0 -
Agree with DopeItUp - 1/2 squats (only to parallel) make you look like some D-bag.
Working on the flexibility to do the squat right is just part of the challenge. And of course you can 1/2 squat (go to parallel only) more - because you're doing exactly that, 1/2 the work.
I've learned if you think you're going to parallel, you're probably above parallel. If you think you're just below parallel, you're probably actually only at parallel. And if you think you're A2G, you're probably really just some degree below parallel.
Squat to something to let your butt bump it at your desired depth to ensure you hit your goal depth (while ensuring proper form)XavierNusum wrote: »My husband has very tight hip flexors and longer femurs, and he's just uncomfortable with the squat motion in general, but he still tries none the less; I would hate to think that someone seeing him "1/2 squat" moderate weight while trying to work on mobility and flexibility would think he's a "D-bag," ..that's just ignorant.
Nobody thinks that. Normally you get that label if you're lifting ridiculous amounts of weight with minimal ROM. Anything less than parallel defeats the purpose of the movement and puts MORE stress on the knees by leaving out the posterior chain muscles.
huffingtonpost.com/mark-rippetoe/squats-lifting-knees_b_4490749.html
stronglifts.com/10-tips-to-stop-your-knees-from-popping-and-cracking/
biomechfit.com/2012/02/09/3-squatting-myths-that-refuse-to-die
She does0 -
I'm really assuming she's talking about the guy with 4 or 5 plates on a bar barely unhinging the hips. People who are taking the time to lift at a weight that promotes using good form don't fall into that category.0
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There are people who squat shallow because they don't know better or don't realize that's what they are doing.
There are well educated lifters who squat shallow for good reasons and they get good results.
The parallel squat is standard developed by powerlifters for powerlifters. It's not necessarily best.
For many, deep squats are useless for quad activation. ATG squats deload the quads and they lag in development.
Olympic weightlifters often use very shallow squats in their training. ATG squats are only specific to one sport, Olympic weightlifting.
Most sports benefit more from partial range of motion.0 -
There are people who squat shallow because they don't know better or don't realize that's what they are doing.
There are well educated lifters who squat shallow for good reasons and they get good results.
The parallel squat is standard developed by powerlifters for powerlifters. It's not necessarily best.
For many, deep squats are useless for quad activation. ATG squats deload the quads and they lag in development.
Olympic weightlifters often use very shallow squats in their training. ATG squats are only specific to one sport, Olympic weightlifting.
Most sports benefit more from partial range of motion.
Are you sure about this???
From Greg Everett Owner & Coach of Catalyst Athletics
Depth
The depth of an Olympic squat should not even be a topic of discussion, but because there has been and continues to be discussion among coaches and athletes in sports outside of weightlifting, it warrants at least clarification: proper depth is full depth; full depth means full depth. That is, full depth is not parallel, nor is it breaking parallel—it is squatting to the lowest position possible without surgical alteration of body parts while maintaining correct posture. To simplify, we want to close the knee joint maximally while maintaining a correctly arched back.
Full article: catalystathletics.com/article/20/The-Olympic-Weightlifting-Squat/0 -
HappyCampr1 wrote: »I think I'll quit working on my dorsifelxion and hip mobility now, lol. After reading strong curves, I got the impression that I should be doing ATG squats. And, reading here, that would make sense because he's the glute guy. But, I've been working on mobility for a several months now. I can do 8-10 squat to stands for a couple sets, (
http://youtu.be/ExZwvdgAe6g ) but my weight shifts to the left side to spare my right knee. It's a tad more difficult if you let go of your feet like I do and let your body actually rest at the bottom. Parallel doesn't bother it, but I've had to work hard to get to ATG range of motion and I'm just using body weight. I can't imagine how long it would take me to get to the point I could carry weight on my shoulders doing this. I think the hack squat machine is working my quads more than anything else I'm doing right now (although I did do some goblet squats yesterday). It would be nice to work my way up to actual squats without feeling like a failure because I'm having issues going ATG.
Whether you decide to squat ATG you should still work for proper mobility in hips and ankles. Main reason is because impingement of those joints are often what cause pain felt in knees and low back. There is tons of research out there about how cultures that squat regularly for daily activities have much less instance of chronic back and knee pain as societies that use western toilets and sit in 90 degree chairs for hours at a time.0 -
XavierNusum wrote: »I'm really assuming she's talking about the guy with 4 or 5 plates on a bar barely unhinging the hips. People who are taking the time to lift at a weight that promotes using good form don't fall into that category.
Hitting parallel and stopping at parallel isn't a half squat. Pretty substantial difference between hitting parallel and those who are ego lifting.
This:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsFC_2mFZg0
is not
This:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_GsNXF_Rzc 0 -
XavierNusum wrote: »There are people who squat shallow because they don't know better or don't realize that's what they are doing.
There are well educated lifters who squat shallow for good reasons and they get good results.
The parallel squat is standard developed by powerlifters for powerlifters. It's not necessarily best.
For many, deep squats are useless for quad activation. ATG squats deload the quads and they lag in development.
Olympic weightlifters often use very shallow squats in their training. ATG squats are only specific to one sport, Olympic weightlifting.
Most sports benefit more from partial range of motion.
Are you sure about this???
From Greg Everett Owner & Coach of Catalyst Athletics
Depth
The depth of an Olympic squat should not even be a topic of discussion, but because there has been and continues to be discussion among coaches and athletes in sports outside of weightlifting, it warrants at least clarification: proper depth is full depth; full depth means full depth. That is, full depth is not parallel, nor is it breaking parallel—it is squatting to the lowest position possible without surgical alteration of body parts while maintaining correct posture. To simplify, we want to close the knee joint maximally while maintaining a correctly arched back.
Full article: catalystathletics.com/article/20/The-Olympic-Weightlifting-Squat/
That's an opinion piece. Full depth depends on the sport, the person, and the goals. A powerlifter should rarely if ever train below the parallel breaking point, which would be full depth for them. They don't need to. Bodybuilders use a wide variety of depths for various reasons.
I'm certain that dropping below 90 degrees deloads the quads.
I am very positive that Olympic lifters frequently use partial squats in their training.0 -
That's an opinion piece. Full depth depends on the sport, the person, and the goals. A powerlifter should rarely if ever train below the parallel breaking point, which would be full depth for them. They don't need to. Bodybuilders use a wide variety of depths for various reasons.
I'm certain that dropping below 90 degrees deloads the quads.
I am very positive that Olympic lifters frequently use partial squats in their training.
I agree it's an opinion piece, but it's one by a qualified Olympic lifting coach who is very well known and respected in the sport. I also agree depth is sport dependent and Oly lifting is a sport that requires full depth. I've watched tons of training videos from the Catalyst team and no one does partial squats, parallel or above parallel squats. If for no other reason than needing to become comfortable in the bottom position or receiving position for cleans and snatches.0 -
XavierNusum wrote: »
That's an opinion piece. Full depth depends on the sport, the person, and the goals. A powerlifter should rarely if ever train below the parallel breaking point, which would be full depth for them. They don't need to. Bodybuilders use a wide variety of depths for various reasons.
I'm certain that dropping below 90 degrees deloads the quads.
I am very positive that Olympic lifters frequently use partial squats in their training.
I agree it's an opinion piece, but it's one by a qualified Olympic lifting coach who is very well known and respected in the sport. I also agree depth is sport dependent and Oly lifting is a sport that requires full depth. I've watched tons of training videos from the Catalyst team and no one does partial squats, parallel or above parallel squats. If for no other reason than needing to become comfortable in the bottom position or receiving position for cleans and snatches.
I've seen training for Olympic lifters that overloaded the top and bottom of the squat for partials. These practices were more than just publicity training videos. It's sort of like rack pulls for deadlifts and board press for bench press in powerlifters.0 -
LolBroScience wrote: »XavierNusum wrote: »I'm really assuming she's talking about the guy with 4 or 5 plates on a bar barely unhinging the hips. People who are taking the time to lift at a weight that promotes using good form don't fall into that category.
Hitting parallel and stopping at parallel isn't a half squat. Pretty substantial difference between hitting parallel and those who are ego lifting.
This:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsFC_2mFZg0
is not
This:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_GsNXF_Rzc
This is it right here. I agree 100% Not to mention I think Chad Wesley Smith is going deeper than parallel it's just hard to tell because he's so freaking massive! lol
0 -
I can't find the post now, but someone replied to one of my replies re knee issues. I have a new one and am doing body weight only. Just wanted to share that keeping my shins as straight as possible, and doing movements that facilitate that, = being pain-free
want to give a special shout out to partial skater squats, which apparently work quads and hams almost equally, and to bodyweight single leg RDLs, of course. Also for hams, the SHELC is not *too* bad when glute ham raises just aren't happening bc of pressure on kneecap and you are bored of back extensions.0 -
HappyCampr1 wrote: »I can't find the post now, but someone replied to one of my replies re knee issues. I have a new one and am doing body weight only. Just wanted to share that keeping my shins as straight as possible, and doing movements that facilitate that, = being pain-free
want to give a special shout out to partial skater squats, which apparently work quads and hams almost equally, and to bodyweight single leg RDLs, of course. Also for hams, the SHELC is not *too* bad when glute ham raises just aren't happening bc of pressure on kneecap and you are bored of back extensions.
I try the skater squats, but I think I'm leaning too far forward. I like them, so I try them anyway. The thing that feels best on my knee so far is single leg box dips. I like those too, if I can get the 18" box at my gym. It's not always available. Off to google SHELC...
Ah, it's often that way, can't do the one thing you need, sucks when there aren't many alternatives. I'm not sure I'm up for the box dips but am keen to try, so thanks for that!
Yeah, re shelc thing, I hadn't seen it called anything else - think I prefer yours
For the skater squats, re tracking, I'm usually in front of mirrors, which helps, and I try to remember to use my hams and drive through the back of my foot. Sometimes I use a stick to be sure. But I think it comes down to "does it feel good" (or at least, does it not hurt) and that's what matters in the end0 -
In terms of what's best to do in terms of breaking parallel, would this be any different for bodyweight squats?0
-
Read a recent study that notes there ARE indication of long term or short term injury or deterioration issues that can occur from going too far past parallel, as well as no additional activation of the muscle groups as well.
Summary:Overall, the squat exercise provides
substantial and well-researched bene-
fits. However, when considering the
value of the deep squat, the risks
appear to outweigh many of the
potential benefits. Most significantly,
patellofemoral injury does appear to be
associated with deep knee flexion,
which can predispose individuals to
osteoarthritic changes in the articular
cartilage beneath the patella. Also, it is
important to note that electromyo-
graphic activity across studies have
indicated that peak muscle activity in
the quadriceps, hamstrings, and gas-
trocnemius fall within the range of the
parallel squat and do not increase
beyond parallel of flexion. This sug-
gests that squatting below parallel will
not increase muscle activation. Finally,
consider what is functional for the
individual and the sport, if deep
squatting is not part of normal func-
tioning, it may not be contributing to
sport performance via specificity.
Are Deep Squats a Safe and Viable Exercise?
Brad Schoenfeld, MSc, and Mary Williams, MA
Exercise Science Department, CUNY Lehman College, Bronx, New York; and Athletic Training Education Program, Texas A&M University-Corpus Christi, Corpus Christi, Texas
Several have been talking about the better results going below parallel and totally missed this post - which was sadly put up right at the time of the d-bag post which was stupidly distracting.0
This discussion has been closed.
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