Confused about carbs

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Replies

  • BritDillinger
    BritDillinger Posts: 77
    herrspoons wrote: »
    BritDillinger wrote: »
    rabbitjb wrote: »
    BritDillinger wrote: »
    Despite what many are saying, consuming carbs to a varying degree does change how your body stores and burns body fat, which can change how well you lose weight. Keeping a low carb diet is best and ideal for your body. Your brain and other major organs thrive on fat and your body converts protein into necessary sugars. Basic low carb, I believe, is under 100g - 50g net carb (that's after subtracting total carbs with dietary fiber and sugar alcohols) and a diet called the Ketogenic diet is 20g net carbs and under.

    Here are some illustrations and articles for an easier understanding:
    * http://www.fastcodesign.com/1668916/pasta-not-bacon-makes-you-fat-but-how

    * http://www.forbes.com/sites/bethhoffman/2012/04/16/carbs-or-fat-the-battle-continues-infographic/

    Carbs do not change how your body stores fat ...can you explain why you think this with some form of evidence because as an assertion it's fairly odd

    Keeping a low carb diet is only ideal if you find it easy and can stick to it for life which most don't / can't

    http://www.ditchthecarbs.com/why/

    Taking a snippet:

    "When you consume carbohydrates, they get turned into glucose by your body. The pancreas then secretes insulin to reduce the blood glucose levels. Insulin is our fat STORING hormone and fat burning is switched off. If we have very little amounts of carbohydrates in our diet, we then secrete less insulin, and therefore store less fat and able to burn fat."

    Interesting. Please explain fructolysis and insulin's role, or lack thereof, in this process. You know, since fructose is a carb.

    Here, from bodybuilding.com: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/keto.htm

    I will copy/paste most of the page for you. Read the entire page then if these don’t answer your questions.

    BENEFIT 1
    The main benefit being that it increases the body's ability to utilize fats for fuel, which gets very lazy on a high carbohydrate diet. When on high carbohydrate diets the body can usually expect an energy source to keep entering the body. But in the state of ketosis the body has to become efficient at mobilizing fats as energy.

    BENEFIT 2
    Ketosis has a protein sparing effect, assuming that you are consuming adequate quantities of protein and calories in the first place. Once in ketosis the body actually prefers ketones to glucose. Since the body has copious quantities of fat this means that there is no need to oxidize protein to generate glucose through gluconeogenesis.

    BENEFIT 3
    Another benefit has to do with the low levels of insulin in the body, which causes greater lipolysis and free glycerol release compared to a normal diet when insulin is around 80-120. Insulin has a lipolysis blocking effect, which can inhibit the use of fatty acids as energy. Also when insulin is brought to low levels many beneficial hormones are released in the body such as growth hormone and other powerful growth factors.

    BENEFIT 4
    Another small but very important benefit about the ketogenic diet is that when in the state of ketosis, ketones seem to blunt hunger in many people. I mean honestly, what is not better than being on a low calorie diet and not being hungry all the time like you usually are such as on a high carbohydrate diet. Since on the ketogenic diet you have to consume a lot of fat, which hold 9 calories, you are not getting much food volume. This makes not being hungry a very good thing when on the diet. When you add such thermogenics like the ECA stack and prescription appetite suppressants you won't even think about your next meal. It's kind of funny that when the Atkins' diet first came out one of the early criticisms was that the diet blunted hunger too much! What, is it mandatory to be hungry on a reduced calorie diet?

    BENEFIT 5
    The last benefit has to do with the fact that a ketone body is an inefficient fuel source due to the fact that when the fatty acid is converted to a KB it contains 7 calories. This means that the normal pound of fat has less than 3,500 calories.

    WHERE IS THE SCIENTIFIC DATA?
    The state of ketosis is—for the most part—controlled by insulin, glucagon, and blood glucose levels. Insulin is one of the hormones that the pancreas secretes in the presence of carbohydrates. Insulin's purpose is to keep blood glucose levels in check by acting like a driver, pushing the glucose in the blood into cells. If insulin were not to be secreted, blood glucose levels would get out of control and this would not be good for the body.

    Glucagon is on the other side of the spectrum; it is insulin's antagonistic hormone. Glucagon is also secreted by the pancreas when insulin falls to quite low levels. This usually happens when a person skips meals, or does not consume adequate amounts of carbohydrates for an extended period of time. When this happens, glucagon is secreted by the pancreas to break down stored glycogen in the liver into a more usable form, glucose. But what happens if this continues and liver glycogen runs out? This is where the metabolic state of ketosis comes in, because the pancreas can also start breaking down free fatty acids into a usable energy substrate, also known as ketones, or ketone bodies.

    Edit:
    Satisfied?
  • brianpperkins
    brianpperkins Posts: 6,124 Member
    @BritDillinger Source vetting is important ... try it some time. Then again, your pro-keto profile quote does go a long way towards explaining the slanted content of your posts.
  • LolBroScience
    LolBroScience Posts: 4,537 Member
    brianpperkins wrote: »
    @BritDillinger Source vetting is important ... try it some time. Then again, your pro-keto profile quote does go a long way towards explaining the slanted content of your posts.

    What he said but I was too lazy to type.
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  • cityruss
    cityruss Posts: 2,493 Member
    I think the problem here is the black and white way these things are looked at, and the ferocity of which the proponents of these 'diets' believe in their point. YOU MUST EAT THIS WAY!

    I'm sure entering a ketogenic state has some proven benefits. I'm sure a high fat diet has some proven benefits. I'm sure a high carbohydrate diet has some proven benefits. One thing they all have in common is they create a calorie deficit which is the one single thing you need to drop body fat.

    A macro range that gives a ketogenic state may be 0.0008% more optimal in fat body fat burning than another macro range, but that's pointless if you can stick with it for 2 weeks because you hate not eating carbs, or your exercise performance plummets.

    I have no idea what macro range is optimal for body fat loss, and I don't really care. I do know that ANY macro range will achieve fat loss. Therefore I chose a macro range that I enjoy, can stick to, and allows me maximum exercise performance.

    Again, OP, lose weight by eating at a calorie deficit. Tailor the macronutrient make-up of this deficit for personal preference, performance and sustainability.

    PS.. Copy and pasting BB.com articles, especially ones that contain this, doesn't really add any gravitas to your argument.
    When you add such thermogenics like the ECA stack and prescription appetite suppressants you won't even think about your next meal
  • Christine_72
    Christine_72 Posts: 16,049 Member
    Are there even any "scientific" papers on keto out there?? Anyone can find pro and con articles, citations etc etc They're only "correct" if one believes what they say :wink:
  • BritDillinger
    BritDillinger Posts: 77
    christinev297 wrote: »
    Are there even any "scientific" papers on keto out there?? Anyone can find pro and con articles, citations etc etc They're only "correct" if one believes what they say :wink:

    Medical doctor:

    http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/2011/04/14/steve-phinney-low-carb-preserves-glycogen-better-than-high-carb/
  • juggernaut1974
    juggernaut1974 Posts: 6,212 Member
    BritDillinger wrote: »
    christinev297 wrote: »
    Are there even any "scientific" papers on keto out there?? Anyone can find pro and con articles, citations etc etc They're only "correct" if one believes what they say :wink:

    Medical doctor:

    http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/2011/04/14/steve-phinney-low-carb-preserves-glycogen-better-than-high-carb/

    Blog/article.

    If you want I'll make a mock up website, post a picture of myself, call myself a doctor, and post my opinions on the internet in about half an hour.
  • brianpperkins
    brianpperkins Posts: 6,124 Member
    BritDillinger wrote: »
    christinev297 wrote: »
    Are there even any "scientific" papers on keto out there?? Anyone can find pro and con articles, citations etc etc They're only "correct" if one believes what they say :wink:

    Medical doctor:

    http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/2011/04/14/steve-phinney-low-carb-preserves-glycogen-better-than-high-carb/

    A doctor using anecdotes and inferences about a dog study. I'll reiterate this for you ... source vetting is important.
  • Christine_72
    Christine_72 Posts: 16,049 Member
    christinev297 wrote: »
    Are there even any "scientific" papers on keto out there?? Anyone can find pro and con articles, citations etc etc They're only "correct" if one believes what they say :wink:


    ceoverturf wrote: »
    BritDillinger wrote: »
    christinev297 wrote: »
    Are there even any "scientific" papers on keto out there?? Anyone can find pro and con articles, citations etc etc They're only "correct" if one believes what they say :wink:

    Medical doctor:

    http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/2011/04/14/steve-phinney-low-carb-preserves-glycogen-better-than-high-carb/

    Blog/article.

    If you want I'll make a mock up website, post a picture of myself, call myself a doctor, and post my opinions on the internet in about half an hour.

    Se what I mean!? If the above article went against keto would people be so quick to dismiss it?
    Let me reiterate, i'm not a keto or low carb follower,

  • juggernaut1974
    juggernaut1974 Posts: 6,212 Member
    christinev297 wrote: »
    christinev297 wrote: »
    Are there even any "scientific" papers on keto out there?? Anyone can find pro and con articles, citations etc etc They're only "correct" if one believes what they say :wink:


    ceoverturf wrote: »
    BritDillinger wrote: »
    christinev297 wrote: »
    Are there even any "scientific" papers on keto out there?? Anyone can find pro and con articles, citations etc etc They're only "correct" if one believes what they say :wink:

    Medical doctor:

    http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/2011/04/14/steve-phinney-low-carb-preserves-glycogen-better-than-high-carb/

    Blog/article.

    If you want I'll make a mock up website, post a picture of myself, call myself a doctor, and post my opinions on the internet in about half an hour.

    Se what I mean!? If the above article went against keto would people be so quick to dismiss it?
    Let me reiterate, i'm not a keto or low carb follower,

    Can't speak for everyone, but I would.
  • brianpperkins
    brianpperkins Posts: 6,124 Member
    christinev297 wrote: »
    christinev297 wrote: »
    Are there even any "scientific" papers on keto out there?? Anyone can find pro and con articles, citations etc etc They're only "correct" if one believes what they say :wink:


    ceoverturf wrote: »
    BritDillinger wrote: »
    christinev297 wrote: »
    Are there even any "scientific" papers on keto out there?? Anyone can find pro and con articles, citations etc etc They're only "correct" if one believes what they say :wink:

    Medical doctor:

    http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/2011/04/14/steve-phinney-low-carb-preserves-glycogen-better-than-high-carb/

    Blog/article.

    If you want I'll make a mock up website, post a picture of myself, call myself a doctor, and post my opinions on the internet in about half an hour.

    Se what I mean!? If the above article went against keto would people be so quick to dismiss it?
    Let me reiterate, i'm not a keto or low carb follower,
    I dismiss any citation of blogs, wiki, etc. Sources matter.
  • RoxieDawn
    RoxieDawn Posts: 15,488 Member
    Interesting reading on foods that are high and low on glycemic index. This will give you perspective on how carbs affect your body..

    I am not a diabetic but I did some research on carbs and this definitely gave me some education about carbs and sugar...
  • eric_sg61
    eric_sg61 Posts: 2,925 Member
    Early mouse study, human trials in the works seeing same results but it explains a lot
    http://medicalxpress.com/news/2015-03-high-fat-diet-behavior-brain-inflammation.html
  • cwolfman13
    cwolfman13 Posts: 41,865 Member
    Evil *kitten* carbs....

    carbohydrates.gif

    2_d74822_e811493592.jpg

    intro-legumes-photo2.jpg

    wholegrains.jpg

    image_grains.png

    So evil....


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  • AlabasterVerve
    AlabasterVerve Posts: 3,171 Member
    edited March 2015
    BritDillinger wrote: »
    christinev297 wrote: »
    Are there even any "scientific" papers on keto out there?? Anyone can find pro and con articles, citations etc etc They're only "correct" if one believes what they say :wink:

    Medical doctor:

    http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/2011/04/14/steve-phinney-low-carb-preserves-glycogen-better-than-high-carb/
    Brit, I eat a low carb diet (low enough that I go in and out of ketosis occasionally). I'm extremely low carb/keto friendly because of my own experience. But the diet really, really isn't the-one-true-way to eat. Some people thrive on the diet (especially those with underlying medical conditions) and others don't. It's not for everyone and there's no science suggesting it is.

    You can be enthusiastic about this way of eating if you are, share your experience and leave it at that. I think those who might be interested would find that approach more helpful than claims that can't be substantiated by the current research. Best wishes to you and thanks for sharing so many articles; I'm always interested in what people have to say about low carb/keto. :)

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  • jgnatca
    jgnatca Posts: 14,464 Member
    aaand back to basics, does this look about right?
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    christinev297 wrote: »
    Are there even any "scientific" papers on keto out there?? Anyone can find pro and con articles, citations etc etc They're only "correct" if one believes what they say :wink:

    You can find science and nutrition types who are pro and anti low carb. My impression is that the majority and the mainstream tend to be somewhat anti low carb/keto except for specific medical conditions (cancer, severe seizure disorders), but I'm not convinced that negative view is really grounded in good evidence either--I haven't read anything convincing against low carb except that many people have trouble sticking with it. I think it's great for the right person. (Hmm--Marion Nestle did a piece on Paleo recently where her POV, which would seem to apply to low carb too, wasn't that it's not possible to eat in a healthy fashion on paleo, but that cutting out food groups increases the risk that you will miss out on some essential nutrient.)

    I see zero benefits for myself if you like carbs and are someone for whom it's not so difficult to eat the right amount of calories without going low carb, however, or if your reasons for overeating are unrelated to the usual reasons given for low carb (carbs make you hungry or you struggle with excessive physical hunger).

    Nutrition, Concepts & Controversies, by Frances Sienkiewicz Sizer and Ellie Whitney (a commonly used text for nutrition courses) is one example of the mainstream POV.
  • Charliegottheruns
    Charliegottheruns Posts: 286 Member
    herrspoons wrote: »
    BritDillinger wrote: »
    christinev297 wrote: »
    Are there even any "scientific" papers on keto out there?? Anyone can find pro and con articles, citations etc etc They're only "correct" if one believes what they say :wink:

    Medical doctor:

    http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/2011/04/14/steve-phinney-low-carb-preserves-glycogen-better-than-high-carb/

    Have you answered the question about fructolysis yet? Also, can you explain gluconeogenesis and why your body will continue to produce glucose in the absence of carbohydrate intake?

    But then that would require an understanding of the subject matter rather than just the ability to hit Ctrl-C and Ctrl-V, wouldn't it?

    It keeps your brain alive. :)
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    BritDillinger wrote: »
    Here, from bodybuilding.com: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/keto.htm

    Seriously?
    The main benefit being that it increases the body's ability to utilize fats for fuel, which gets very lazy on a high carbohydrate diet.

    You don't need to be doing keto to burn fat for fuel.

    (Also, keto and high carb are obviously not the only choices.)
    Since the body has copious quantities of fat this means that there is no need to oxidize protein to generate glucose through gluconeogenesis.

    As you were asked by another poster, when does this happen. Also, why should I consider it a bad thing?
    Another benefit has to do with the low levels of insulin in the body, which causes greater lipolysis and free glycerol release compared to a normal diet when insulin is around 80-120.

    Why is it beneficial to keep insulin low?

    Also, if I am healthy (insulin sensitive, as I am), why is this a concern? Do you understand what insulin does?
    Another small but very important benefit about the ketogenic diet is that when in the state of ketosis, ketones seem to blunt hunger in many people. I mean honestly, what is not better than being on a low calorie diet and not being hungry all the time like you usually are such as on a high carbohydrate diet.

    I think this is the key for why those who like low carb like low carb, but the question remains, what if you aren't hungry all the time (or don't really have issues with hunger at all)? What if you aren't and don't wish to be on a low cal diet?

    Also, again with the false dichotomy between keto and high carb.
    The last benefit has to do with the fact that a ketone body is an inefficient fuel source due to the fact that when the fatty acid is converted to a KB it contains 7 calories.

    Doesn't sound like that much of a plus.

    As I said before, I think low carb/keto can work well for the right people and I'm happy for those who find it helpful for them. I just think this hard sell of keto as the best or only way to lose weight is a little silly and desperate seeming. Many of us are happier and lose weight happily (or maintain happily) on diets with any number of different possible levels of carbs. I did 40% happily for some time and am now trying 50% (timed around workouts a bit more) to see if it has any benefits for me and how I feel. So far I feel good and no more hungry (and I wasn't hungry before).
  • WahachankaKicin
    WahachankaKicin Posts: 101
    edited March 2015
    ana3067 wrote: »
    WahachankaKicin wrote: »
    ana3067 wrote: »
    You can eat however much or little you want that works for your goals. Calories determine weight management, not carbs.

    ETA donuts are the best carbs.


    It is true that, in a vacuum, all calories are the same. A thousand calories of Coke and a thousand calories of broccoli burned in a laboratory will release the same amount of energy. But all bets are off when you eat the Coke or the broccoli. These foods have to be processed by your metabolism (not a closed system). Coke and broccoli trigger very different biochemical responses in the body—different hormones, neurotransmitters and immune messengers. The Coke will spike blood sugar and insulin and disrupt neurotransmitters, leading to increased hunger and fat storage, while the thousand calories of broccoli will balance blood sugar and make you feel full, cut your appetite and increase fat burning.

    This has 0 relevance to how much weight will be lost of the individual eats 2000 calories worth of either, assuming 2000 calories is below their maintenance needs.

    But then again, no one ever fracking eats their day's calories in pop or broccoli, so your example seems pretty damn pointless.



    MY argument is not pointless, you simply are not reading in the proper context OBVIOUSLY no one would do that, the point is GOOD CARBS VS BAD CARBS- In response to your comment: "You can eat however much or little you want that works for your goals. Calories determine weight management, not carbs. ETA donuts are the best carbs." Do you even know what kind of Vacuum I'm referring too? as stated before " A thousand calories of Coke and a thousand calories of broccoli burned in a>>>> laboratory <<<<will release the same amount of energy. " NO ONE WOULD EAT 1000 CALORIES IN A DAY OF THAT NOTE : LABORATORY. You should really consider actually reading the whole paragraph before posting an ignorant comment, because I was not attacking your statement I was agreeing that all calories release the same amount of energy but there are different biochemical responses in the body with the food that you consume as stated before...Hopefully you understand now. So have a great day! :)
  • ndj1979
    ndj1979 Posts: 29,136 Member
    @britdillinger didn't; you claim in another thread that low carb/keto can be a treatment for cancer? I recall in that thread you posted a bunch of blogs trying to justify your claims….
  • barby6011
    barby6011 Posts: 21 Member
    They used to have a weight loss contest at my husbands work place. The fellow who won each year had nothing but a 6 pack of beer every day. That says a lot.
  • PeachyCarol
    PeachyCarol Posts: 8,029 Member
    barby6011 wrote: »
    They used to have a weight loss contest at my husbands work place. The fellow who won each year had nothing but a 6 pack of beer every day. That says a lot.

    In for the beer diet.

  • JPW1990
    JPW1990 Posts: 2,424 Member
    christinev297 wrote: »
    Are there even any "scientific" papers on keto out there?? Anyone can find pro and con articles, citations etc etc They're only "correct" if one believes what they say :wink:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2716748/
    This one is a review paper and cites a lot of them: http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v67/n8/full/ejcn2013116a.html


    There are legitimate reasons it's medically prescribed as often as it is. Unfortunately, just like any other WOE or exercise programs, it gets its share of new converts who could pass for religious zealots until they figure out what they're doing.
  • Gianfranco_R
    Gianfranco_R Posts: 1,297 Member
    mamapeach910 wrote: »
    barby6011 wrote: »
    They used to have a weight loss contest at my husbands work place. The fellow who won each year had nothing but a 6 pack of beer every day. That says a lot.

    In for the beer diet.

    sounds more funny than the twinkie diet :smile:

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