Why is calorie restriction considered to be so bad on MFP?
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It's hard to say really. Again I think that comes down to personal experience. I have a strong opinion about permanent low cal dieting but for some, they seem to be OK and fine over the long time with that (perhaps their bodies are also portionate for that level of daily eating). Everyone has different eating habits, food preferences, exercise regimes, etc,.
What about their mood? Was that discussed? When I fasted, it was just an attempt to try out a theory that one can burn fat first (vs working out after eating) not in an effort to change the # on the scale. My focus was fat reduction. I found I was successful but crabby. Super long term cal restriction (low cal not fasting) never ever worked for me, not when I was 120lbs and not when I was at my fittest of 160lbs.0 -
ar9179, I agree, those people don't look particularly healthy but their numbers say they are. I personally wouldn't want to look like that either but they are supposedly able to outlive most of us who don't do that!
Pu_239, of course if they were eating less than they needed to stay alive they wouldn't. Maybe it's a case of them eating just enough to stay alive, which is a little less then MFP recommends, I don't know. Maybe there's a point where the body is able to eat that little and not lose more weight if it's getting certain necessary nutrients I have no idea.0 -
CRONIES, Calorie Restriction with Optimal Nutrition. Their health benefits is mostly due to a down regulation of metabolic rate.It is unhealthy and very pointless. Once you get back to your regular routine you will just gain all the weight back. So might as well eat and exercise to live a proper and healthier life.
The info that the OP is referring to are people who eat VLC for life. These people aren't dieting to a goal weight like those here. They believe, and there is supporting evidence, that it increases longevity and offers other health benefits. There is a group called CRON that supports the lifestyle. They LIKE it and advocate nutrient dense food along with exercise. There isn't an average intake, so it ranges up to the amounts we would be ok with eating.
I saw a couple on 60 minutes a long time ago that do this and they looked terrible! Apparently their health was tip-top, but emaciated is not the look I'm going for.
Thank you!!!! I've been racking my brain all morning trying to remember that term!!
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OP wants to discuss severe calorie restriction diets which lead to restriction of the aging process, and health benefits... personally, I can't do it because I love food and I'm training - but there is plenty of evidence that it works:
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/140401/ncomms4557/full/ncomms4557.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/7898775/The-Calorie-Restriction-dieters.html
In this story here it lists their heights and weights along with the calories they consume and when you run that through a TDEE calculator it matches up. So I'm confused how they are calorie restricting??0 -
I understand what you are talking about. I have read about calorie restriction for longevity. I think it is hard to open the conversation here because some people view it as a fad, or as a fringe thing. Also because eating disorders are so prevalent, many do not want to seem to encourage fasting even when part of a carefully designed program.
A few people have suggested groups where you might find a more carefully considered discussion.
Good luck!0 -
dixiewhiskey wrote: »Things are frowned upon at this site because every person has an opinion about what works for them (whether it actually happened or not, sustainable longterm, etc,.). Some people fail to articulate their experiences and opinions in a respectful manner. The joys of the internet.
I have fasted for short periods before and had results. The days I didn't fast, I ate a lot and worked my --- off. I don't have a particular reason for not fasting anymore. At the end of the day, you can only do your research and try what will work for you.
Someone's still upset I see.
Hey thanks for thinking of me! It's just a fact that everyone has different opinions and sometimes we fail to articulate them in a way that is supportive and appropriate. It happens. If you have to argue with me on that statement too then you just have way too much time on your hands.
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Of course people have reached their goal by doing different things, but I personally have spoken to a lot of people who do not post on the public forums and when I've asked them about how they got to their goal weight or body fat it was often by eating less than MFP recommends.
I agree that IF works but having watched the 5:2 documentary, it started off talking about calorie restriction and the 5:2 method was developed because the subject concluded that it would be too difficult to either fast for longer or restrict calories by a lot every day of the week.
Did you ask them how they know how much they were eating? Were they weighing and using a tracking app or were they guessing? Did all of them that you asked that don't post on this forum give you the same answers to those questions?
Did all of those people do 5:2 or no?
Did you ask to see those people blood work testing results?
Are you taking everyone's word for what they are telling you?
Anecdata, but I saw a report... maybe it was 60 Minutes or Sunday Morning or one of those shows about what I think maybe she's talking about. This was a few years back, so my memory is fuzzy.
It was a middle aged couple, and they were... I remember this... they were eating 1500 calories, and they were using a food scale.
Where I'm confused with the OP's posting is that she talks about calorie restriction for longevity (a concept which I've heard of before) in one breath, then talks about people restricting very low for weight loss in another. And then she throws in fasting. So I'm not quite sure which one of those subjects she wants addressed.
So, OP... which one of those three issues are you talking about? Very low calorie deficits for weight loss? Long-term calorie restriction for longevity? Or intermittent fasting?
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You won't die young, you'll just wish that you would.0
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I vaguely remember Michael Mosely talking about how people starting living longer during the depression. They seem to think it was because they were eating so little aka calorie restrictions. ..
I know I worded this terribly. I'm so tired,been up for 24hrs. I cant manage to make legible sentences today!
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christinev297 wrote: »I vaguely remember Michael Mosely talking about how people starting living longer during the depression. They seem to think it was because they were eating so little aka calorie restrictions. ..
I know I worded this terribly. I'm so tired,been up for 24hrs. I cant manage to make legible sentences today!
That documentary all boiled down to IGF-1(Insulin Like Growth Factor-1) which is a hormone similar to insulin, it's anabolic and it accelerates aging. The 5:2 diet reduce IGF-1 levels according to the documentary.
Lowering animal sources of protein intake also lowers IGF-1. Calorie restriction does the same thing, if you're eating less calories you're more than likely eating less meat as well.
I was debating a vegan about protein not to long ago, the IGF-1 issue came up. Someone else jumped in and said that, a ketogenic diet is moderate in protein, it's not a high protein diet, so IGF-1 levels are lower as well on a ketogenic diet. Which is also true. I'll assume you know what a ketogenic diet is, if you don't it's a diet which is roughly 10% carbs 30% protein and 60% fat.
yeh I've been around long enough to what keto and paleo and primal etc etc is.
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So average them out over the week, as others have already suggested.JAT74 wrote:the 5:2 method was developed because the subject concluded that it would
be too difficult to either fast for longer or restrict calories by a lot every day of the week.
No need to be miserable even 2 days a week. Just eat a little less every day.
To maintain weight, when active at least 30 min/day, a person needs about 15 cal/lb.
Assuming 150 lb, that's 2250 cal/day.
2250 x 7 = 15,750 cal/wk
(500 x 2) + (2950 x 5) = 15,750 cal/wk
So by reducing the highest intake by 700 calories, a person could go from eating so little it's painful on 2 days to eating a fairly large, satisfying amount on all days.
Even if you want to reduce that by 30%, to try your longevity calorie restriction, that's still 1575 cal/day. Moderate, but doable long-term.
And so far I haven't seen any reference to actual science in this thread, so
I went poking around on PubMed.
26DEC14
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25540982
Fasting for weight loss: an effective strategy or latest dieting trend?
(basically says it's possibly effective, needs more study)
07DEC09
Metabolic reprogramming, caloric restriction and aging
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20004110Caloric restriction (CR) without malnutrition slows the aging process and extends lifespan in diverse species by unknown mechanisms. The inverse linear relationship between calorie intake and lifespan suggests that regulators of energy metabolism are important in the actions of CR. Studies in several species reveal tissue-specific changes in energy metabolism with CR and suggest that metabolic reprogramming plays a critical role in its mechanism of aging retardation.
15OCT12
Mitochondrial metabolic reprogramming induced by calorie restriction
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22901095Calorie restriction (CR) is a known intervention that delays most aging processes. Most of the beneficial effects of CR are mediated by improved maintenance of mitochondrial performance in aged individuals. The control of mitochondrial biogenesis, apoptosis, and protein turnover is required for healthy aging. CR is able to induce molecular mechanisms that preserve oxidative capacity and decrease oxidative damage.
March 2009
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19262201
The scientific basis of caloric restriction leading to longer life
16JAN14
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24440038
Fasting: molecular mechanisms and clinical applicationsIn rodents intermittent or periodic fasting protects against diabetes, cancers, heart disease, and neurodegeneration, while in humans it helps reduce obesity, hypertension, asthma, and rheumatoid arthritis. Thus, fasting has the potential to delay aging and help prevent and treat diseases while minimizing the side effects caused by chronic dietary interventions.
16DEC14
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24044618
Improvement of metabolic parameters in healthy older adult men following a fasting calorie restriction intervention
So they ate at a moderate calorie deficit, plus some variety of fasting (I think that's the ramadan type "fast" where they just don't eat during daylight, so probably doesn't actually involve any more calorie restriction).[reduction of 300-500 kcal/d combined with 2 days/week of Muslim Sunnah Fasting] improved metabolic parameters and DNA damage in healthy older adult men... there is a need to further examine the mechanism
13DEC07
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18225956
(strong genetic component to calorie restriction leading to longevity)
04OCT07
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18156807
Paradoxes of agingThis article discusses ... why calorie restriction and inhibition of protein synthesis extend life span ... why 'healthy' aging is slow aging, and how we know that calorie restriction actually slows aging in humans.
2014
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25345506
Implication of gut microbiota in human healthBalanced diet with calorie restriction (CR) promotes growth of healthy microbiota, leading to longevity by down-regulating inflammatory responses.
13MAR14
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24879775
Can restricting calories help you to live longer?Excess calorie consumption is associated with metabolic disorders and increased incidence of morbidity. Restricting calorie content, either by daily calorie restriction or intermittent fasting periods, has multiple benefits including weight loss and improved body composition. Previous research has shown that restricting calories in this way can increase longevity and slow the ageing process in laboratory animals, although only sparse data exist in human populations. This review critically evaluates the benefits of these dietary interventions on age-related decline and longevity.
But then there's this one, which says it's the ratio of macronutrients that's important, not the calories.
04MAR14
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24606899
The ratio of macronutrients, not caloric intake, dictates cardiometabolic health, aging, and longevity in ad libitum-fed miceLongevity and health were optimized when protein was replaced with carbohydrate to limit compensatory feeding for protein and suppress protein intake. These consequences are associated with hepatic mammalian target of rapamycin (mTOR) activation and mitochondrial function and, in turn, related to circulating branched-chain amino acids and glucose. Calorie restriction achieved by high-protein diets or dietary dilution had no beneficial effects on lifespan. The results suggest that longevity can be extended in ad libitum-fed animals by manipulating the ratio of macronutrients...0 -
Valiant effort in trying to explain it. But I think your good information was lost in translation.christinev297 wrote: »I vaguely remember Michael Mosely talking about how people starting living longer during the depression. They seem to think it was because they were eating so little aka calorie restrictions. ..
I know I worded this terribly. I'm so tired,been up for 24hrs. I cant manage to make legible sentences today!
That documentary all boiled down to IGF-1(Insulin Like Growth Factor-1) which is a hormone similar to insulin, it's anabolic and it accelerates aging. The 5:2 diet reduce IGF-1 levels according to the documentary.
Lowering animal sources of protein intake also lowers IGF-1. Calorie restriction does the same thing, if you're eating less calories you're more than likely eating less meat as well.
I was debating a vegan about protein not to long ago, the IGF-1 issue came up. Someone else jumped in and said that, a ketogenic diet is moderate in protein, it's not a high protein diet, so IGF-1 levels are lower as well on a ketogenic diet. Which is also true. I'll assume you know what a ketogenic diet is, if you don't it's a diet which is roughly 10% carbs 30% protein and 60% fat.
I'm up to speed thanks
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Michael Moseley who produced the 5:2 book/documentary did stress that IF isn't about losing weight. It's about the health benefits. The weight loss is merely a bonus and not guaranteed.
Like I say I felt great following it but weight loss was minimal, now however I am losing at a nice healthy 1lb a week and I feel just as great as I did then. Eating a normal diet. 7 days a week. No brainer for me.0 -
Fair enough, I am currently enjoying fasting but like you am not losing much weight. How much are you eating every day now to be able to lose 1lb per week and how much do you have to lose? I think I'll continue with 5:2 mainly because it allows me to be able to eat a lot more on non-fast days as otherwise I'd be on 1200 calories every single day. I have been eating up to 1650 on non-fast days using this method, though I may lower that slightly to be able to lose a bit more. I also want to continue because my boyfriend has some health issues which seem to be improving on 5:2.
The reason for my post was not related to my personal situation or experience but just something I'd noticed in the media recently and started thinking about how MFP doesn't seem to support some of these alternative methods either for weight loss or health and was curious as to why.0 -
I am losing on 1480 calories a day. I'm 5ft2 and currently weigh 162lbs and aiming for 147. 0
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Too lazy to read the entire thread so sorry if someone already posted this:
http://www.precisionnutrition.com/fasting-restriction-life-extension
'Drawbacks of CR:- [loss of muscle mass]
- Depleting our growth, insulin, and thyroid hormones
- Age-related muscle wasting (aka sarcopenia)
- Having less bone mass and more osteoporosis
- Poor cardiac health (IGF-1 helps maintain the heart muscle)
- Amenorrhea (missing menstrual periods)
- Weaker immune systems and slower healing
- Lowering our libidos and fertility
- Worse athletic performance and less strength
- Anemia
- Getting more forgetful with reduced cognitive function'
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Fair enough, I am currently enjoying fasting but like you am not losing much weight. How much are you eating every day now to be able to lose 1lb per week and how much do you have to lose? I think I'll continue with 5:2 mainly because it allows me to be able to eat a lot more on non-fast days as otherwise I'd be on 1200 calories every single day. I have been eating up to 1650 on non-fast days using this method, though I may lower that slightly to be able to lose a bit more. I also want to continue because my boyfriend has some health issues which seem to be improving on 5:2.
The reason for my post was not related to my personal situation or experience but just something I'd noticed in the media recently and started thinking about how MFP doesn't seem to support some of these alternative methods either for weight loss or health and was curious as to why.
Sorry couldn't follow thread ...too wordy and I was out last night
But on your 5:2 you're averaging 1500 calories a day across the week and you aren't losing weight? What's your TDEE and how much are you expecting to lose?0 -
Look into the 17 day diet. If you stick with it, it will work0
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hottietrish wrote: »Look into the 17 day diet. If you stick with it, it will work
Or don't :huh:
However you get to your calorie defecit depends on you and what you will stick to0 -
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A lot of the time the amount of restriction is quite significant (more than MFP recommends) so I wanted to know why when this is considered safe/healthy people are told they shouldn't do it.
It doesn't fit well with exercise bulimia or with MFP's "hamster wheel" algorithm for exercising more in order to get more food as a reward.
The number of calories doesn't tell us anything about nutritional quality / completeness.
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I watched the Horizon programme and the medical benefits at the beginning seemed to be from having consecutive fast days because it took most of the first day for the chemicals/hormones to change. That message somehow got changed to 2 days peppered across the week to make it easier but surely that benefit is then lost? I wasn't convinced it would be viable for anyone prone to bingeing.0
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WaterBunnie wrote: »I watched the Horizon programme and the medical benefits at the beginning seemed to be from having consecutive fast days because it took most of the first day for the chemicals/hormones to change. That message somehow got changed to 2 days peppered across the week to make it easier but surely that benefit is then lost? I wasn't convinced it would be viable for anyone prone to bingeing.
Whilst I watched it ages ago and don't follow 5:2 my take-out was it was extremely clear that fasting days are not meant to be consecutive0 -
Most of us want to lose weight to look and feel better, as well as reduce risk of non transmissible disease that are well known by the scientific and medical communities to be linked to excess visceral fat. So, we want to eat in a fairly normal and sustainable manner to be slim and healthy, while enjoying food.
The OP is talking about something else. Longevity per se is not quite the same. Severe caloric restriction has been shown to increase life span in animal models (I'm not up on the current literature, so can't give details about the mammalian models tho one of the first study was on worms).
I'm guessing that the quality of life on these severely restricted diets is not super fun.0
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