Why is calorie restriction considered to be so bad on MFP?

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  • Christine_72
    Christine_72 Posts: 16,049 Member
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    I vaguely remember Michael Mosely talking about how people starting living longer during the depression. They seem to think it was because they were eating so little aka calorie restrictions. ..
    I know I worded this terribly. I'm so tired,been up for 24hrs. I cant manage to make legible sentences today! :confounded:
  • mz_getskinny
    mz_getskinny Posts: 258 Member
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    sijomial wrote: »
    OP - you made your post far too long for people's 5 second attention span!

    Yep! I must admit I gave up...
  • Christine_72
    Christine_72 Posts: 16,049 Member
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    Pu_239 wrote: »
    christinev297 wrote: »
    I vaguely remember Michael Mosely talking about how people starting living longer during the depression. They seem to think it was because they were eating so little aka calorie restrictions. ..
    I know I worded this terribly. I'm so tired,been up for 24hrs. I cant manage to make legible sentences today! :confounded:

    That documentary all boiled down to IGF-1(Insulin Like Growth Factor-1) which is a hormone similar to insulin, it's anabolic and it accelerates aging. The 5:2 diet reduce IGF-1 levels according to the documentary.

    Lowering animal sources of protein intake also lowers IGF-1. Calorie restriction does the same thing, if you're eating less calories you're more than likely eating less meat as well.

    I was debating a vegan about protein not to long ago, the IGF-1 issue came up. Someone else jumped in and said that, a ketogenic diet is moderate in protein, it's not a high protein diet, so IGF-1 levels are lower as well on a ketogenic diet. Which is also true. I'll assume you know what a ketogenic diet is, if you don't it's a diet which is roughly 10% carbs 30% protein and 60% fat.

    yeh I've been around long enough to what keto and paleo and primal etc etc is.

  • MKEgal
    MKEgal Posts: 3,250 Member
    edited March 2015
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    JAT74 wrote:
    the 5:2 method was developed because the subject concluded that it would
    be too difficult to either fast for longer or restrict calories by a lot every day of the week.
    So average them out over the week, as others have already suggested.
    No need to be miserable even 2 days a week. Just eat a little less every day.

    To maintain weight, when active at least 30 min/day, a person needs about 15 cal/lb.
    Assuming 150 lb, that's 2250 cal/day.
    2250 x 7 = 15,750 cal/wk
    (500 x 2) + (2950 x 5) = 15,750 cal/wk

    So by reducing the highest intake by 700 calories, a person could go from eating so little it's painful on 2 days to eating a fairly large, satisfying amount on all days.

    Even if you want to reduce that by 30%, to try your longevity calorie restriction, that's still 1575 cal/day. Moderate, but doable long-term.



    And so far I haven't seen any reference to actual science in this thread, so
    I went poking around on PubMed.


    26DEC14
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25540982
    Fasting for weight loss: an effective strategy or latest dieting trend?
    (basically says it's possibly effective, needs more study)


    07DEC09
    Metabolic reprogramming, caloric restriction and aging
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20004110
    Caloric restriction (CR) without malnutrition slows the aging process and extends lifespan in diverse species by unknown mechanisms. The inverse linear relationship between calorie intake and lifespan suggests that regulators of energy metabolism are important in the actions of CR. Studies in several species reveal tissue-specific changes in energy metabolism with CR and suggest that metabolic reprogramming plays a critical role in its mechanism of aging retardation.


    15OCT12
    Mitochondrial metabolic reprogramming induced by calorie restriction
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22901095
    Calorie restriction (CR) is a known intervention that delays most aging processes. Most of the beneficial effects of CR are mediated by improved maintenance of mitochondrial performance in aged individuals. The control of mitochondrial biogenesis, apoptosis, and protein turnover is required for healthy aging. CR is able to induce molecular mechanisms that preserve oxidative capacity and decrease oxidative damage.


    March 2009
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19262201
    The scientific basis of caloric restriction leading to longer life


    16JAN14
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24440038
    Fasting: molecular mechanisms and clinical applications
    In rodents intermittent or periodic fasting protects against diabetes, cancers, heart disease, and neurodegeneration, while in humans it helps reduce obesity, hypertension, asthma, and rheumatoid arthritis. Thus, fasting has the potential to delay aging and help prevent and treat diseases while minimizing the side effects caused by chronic dietary interventions.


    16DEC14
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24044618
    Improvement of metabolic parameters in healthy older adult men following a fasting calorie restriction intervention
    [reduction of 300-500 kcal/d combined with 2 days/week of Muslim Sunnah Fasting] improved metabolic parameters and DNA damage in healthy older adult men... there is a need to further examine the mechanism
    So they ate at a moderate calorie deficit, plus some variety of fasting (I think that's the ramadan type "fast" where they just don't eat during daylight, so probably doesn't actually involve any more calorie restriction).


    13DEC07
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18225956
    (strong genetic component to calorie restriction leading to longevity)


    04OCT07
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18156807
    Paradoxes of aging
    This article discusses ... why calorie restriction and inhibition of protein synthesis extend life span ... why 'healthy' aging is slow aging, and how we know that calorie restriction actually slows aging in humans.


    2014
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25345506
    Implication of gut microbiota in human health
    Balanced diet with calorie restriction (CR) promotes growth of healthy microbiota, leading to longevity by down-regulating inflammatory responses.


    13MAR14
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24879775
    Can restricting calories help you to live longer?
    Excess calorie consumption is associated with metabolic disorders and increased incidence of morbidity. Restricting calorie content, either by daily calorie restriction or intermittent fasting periods, has multiple benefits including weight loss and improved body composition. Previous research has shown that restricting calories in this way can increase longevity and slow the ageing process in laboratory animals, although only sparse data exist in human populations. This review critically evaluates the benefits of these dietary interventions on age-related decline and longevity.



    But then there's this one, which says it's the ratio of macronutrients that's important, not the calories.
    04MAR14
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24606899
    The ratio of macronutrients, not caloric intake, dictates cardiometabolic health, aging, and longevity in ad libitum-fed mice
    Longevity and health were optimized when protein was replaced with carbohydrate to limit compensatory feeding for protein and suppress protein intake. These consequences are associated with hepatic mammalian target of rapamycin (mTOR) activation and mitochondrial function and, in turn, related to circulating branched-chain amino acids and glucose. Calorie restriction achieved by high-protein diets or dietary dilution had no beneficial effects on lifespan. The results suggest that longevity can be extended in ad libitum-fed animals by manipulating the ratio of macronutrients...
  • Christine_72
    Christine_72 Posts: 16,049 Member
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    MrM27 wrote: »
    Pu_239 wrote: »
    christinev297 wrote: »
    I vaguely remember Michael Mosely talking about how people starting living longer during the depression. They seem to think it was because they were eating so little aka calorie restrictions. ..
    I know I worded this terribly. I'm so tired,been up for 24hrs. I cant manage to make legible sentences today! :confounded:

    That documentary all boiled down to IGF-1(Insulin Like Growth Factor-1) which is a hormone similar to insulin, it's anabolic and it accelerates aging. The 5:2 diet reduce IGF-1 levels according to the documentary.

    Lowering animal sources of protein intake also lowers IGF-1. Calorie restriction does the same thing, if you're eating less calories you're more than likely eating less meat as well.

    I was debating a vegan about protein not to long ago, the IGF-1 issue came up. Someone else jumped in and said that, a ketogenic diet is moderate in protein, it's not a high protein diet, so IGF-1 levels are lower as well on a ketogenic diet. Which is also true. I'll assume you know what a ketogenic diet is, if you don't it's a diet which is roughly 10% carbs 30% protein and 60% fat.
    Valiant effort in trying to explain it. But I think your good information was lost in translation.

    I'm up to speed thanks :smile:

  • NobodyPutsAmyInTheCorner
    NobodyPutsAmyInTheCorner Posts: 1,018 Member
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    Michael Moseley who produced the 5:2 book/documentary did stress that IF isn't about losing weight. It's about the health benefits. The weight loss is merely a bonus and not guaranteed.

    Like I say I felt great following it but weight loss was minimal, now however I am losing at a nice healthy 1lb a week and I feel just as great as I did then. Eating a normal diet. 7 days a week. No brainer for me.
  • JAT74
    JAT74 Posts: 1,078 Member
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    Fair enough, I am currently enjoying fasting but like you am not losing much weight. How much are you eating every day now to be able to lose 1lb per week and how much do you have to lose? I think I'll continue with 5:2 mainly because it allows me to be able to eat a lot more on non-fast days as otherwise I'd be on 1200 calories every single day. I have been eating up to 1650 on non-fast days using this method, though I may lower that slightly to be able to lose a bit more. I also want to continue because my boyfriend has some health issues which seem to be improving on 5:2.

    The reason for my post was not related to my personal situation or experience but just something I'd noticed in the media recently and started thinking about how MFP doesn't seem to support some of these alternative methods either for weight loss or health and was curious as to why.
  • NobodyPutsAmyInTheCorner
    NobodyPutsAmyInTheCorner Posts: 1,018 Member
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    I am losing on 1480 calories a day. I'm 5ft2 and currently weigh 162lbs and aiming for 147. :)
  • LiftAndBalance
    LiftAndBalance Posts: 960 Member
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    Too lazy to read the entire thread so sorry if someone already posted this:

    http://www.precisionnutrition.com/fasting-restriction-life-extension

    'Drawbacks of CR:
    • [loss of muscle mass]
    • Depleting our growth, insulin, and thyroid hormones
    • Age-related muscle wasting (aka sarcopenia)
    • Having less bone mass and more osteoporosis
    • Poor cardiac health (IGF-1 helps maintain the heart muscle)
    • Amenorrhea (missing menstrual periods)
    • Weaker immune systems and slower healing
    • Lowering our libidos and fertility
    • Worse athletic performance and less strength
    • Anemia
    • Getting more forgetful with reduced cognitive function'

  • Sued0nim
    Sued0nim Posts: 17,456 Member
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    JAT74 wrote: »
    Fair enough, I am currently enjoying fasting but like you am not losing much weight. How much are you eating every day now to be able to lose 1lb per week and how much do you have to lose? I think I'll continue with 5:2 mainly because it allows me to be able to eat a lot more on non-fast days as otherwise I'd be on 1200 calories every single day. I have been eating up to 1650 on non-fast days using this method, though I may lower that slightly to be able to lose a bit more. I also want to continue because my boyfriend has some health issues which seem to be improving on 5:2.

    The reason for my post was not related to my personal situation or experience but just something I'd noticed in the media recently and started thinking about how MFP doesn't seem to support some of these alternative methods either for weight loss or health and was curious as to why.

    Sorry couldn't follow thread ...too wordy and I was out last night

    But on your 5:2 you're averaging 1500 calories a day across the week and you aren't losing weight? What's your TDEE and how much are you expecting to lose?
  • hottietrish
    hottietrish Posts: 5
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    Look into the 17 day diet. If you stick with it, it will work
  • Sued0nim
    Sued0nim Posts: 17,456 Member
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    hottietrish wrote: »
    Look into the 17 day diet. If you stick with it, it will work

    Or don't :huh:

    However you get to your calorie defecit depends on you and what you will stick to
  • isulo_kura
    isulo_kura Posts: 818 Member
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    hottietrish wrote: »
    Look into the 17 day diet. If you stick with it, it will work

    Until day 18 ;)
  • yarwell
    yarwell Posts: 10,477 Member
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    JAT74 wrote: »
    A lot of the time the amount of restriction is quite significant (more than MFP recommends) so I wanted to know why when this is considered safe/healthy people are told they shouldn't do it.

    It doesn't fit well with exercise bulimia or with MFP's "hamster wheel" algorithm for exercising more in order to get more food as a reward.

    The number of calories doesn't tell us anything about nutritional quality / completeness.

  • WaterBunnie
    WaterBunnie Posts: 1,370 Member
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    I watched the Horizon programme and the medical benefits at the beginning seemed to be from having consecutive fast days because it took most of the first day for the chemicals/hormones to change. That message somehow got changed to 2 days peppered across the week to make it easier but surely that benefit is then lost? I wasn't convinced it would be viable for anyone prone to bingeing.
  • Sued0nim
    Sued0nim Posts: 17,456 Member
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    WaterBunnie wrote: »
    I watched the Horizon programme and the medical benefits at the beginning seemed to be from having consecutive fast days because it took most of the first day for the chemicals/hormones to change. That message somehow got changed to 2 days peppered across the week to make it easier but surely that benefit is then lost? I wasn't convinced it would be viable for anyone prone to bingeing.

    Whilst I watched it ages ago and don't follow 5:2 my take-out was it was extremely clear that fasting days are not meant to be consecutive
  • spzjlb
    spzjlb Posts: 599 Member
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    Most of us want to lose weight to look and feel better, as well as reduce risk of non transmissible disease that are well known by the scientific and medical communities to be linked to excess visceral fat. So, we want to eat in a fairly normal and sustainable manner to be slim and healthy, while enjoying food.

    The OP is talking about something else. Longevity per se is not quite the same. Severe caloric restriction has been shown to increase life span in animal models (I'm not up on the current literature, so can't give details about the mammalian models tho one of the first study was on worms).

    I'm guessing that the quality of life on these severely restricted diets is not super fun.

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