Is not doing cardio worn like a badge on honor for you?
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I think going 100% for 20 seconds 10 or 15 times is going to be orders of magnitude easier than going 96% max for a continuous 20 min. (a 5K well raced) or 91% max for a continuous 90 min (a HM well raced).3dogsrunning wrote: »chivalryder wrote: »3dogsrunning wrote: »aobuchanan wrote: »High intensity interval cardio has been proven to be more effective that steady stay cardio. however it takes less time. It is more difficult. I think weight lifters are generally the type of people that spend so much time in diet and exercise that a lot of steady stay cardio would cause them to have to cut out on some of the stuff they love most, lifting and strength training. So why not use a more time efficient proven way to get the cardio done that does not involve hours of cardio, but is scientifically proven to be the most effective? I don't think weight lifters avoid cardio any more than cardio enthusiasts avoid lifting, Just sayin' ! Why would they want to lift, when all they want to do is run, and visa versa? why does it have to be a problem? To each his own. Do what you love and be happy. There is no One right way to do it. One is not better than the other. It's about what gets you the results you want and what makes you happy. Or else, what is it all for anyway? Happy lifting and happy trails.
Proven more effective for what?
I don't necessarily find it more difficult. The hard effort is challenging but it is also short. I find mentally HIIT can be easier than a particularly long run at a lower but sustained effort.
All I'm gonna say is: If you feel like HIIT is easier than anything, you're doing it wrong.
HIIT should be the hardest, most intense thing you ever do, if you do it. You should feel like you're killing yourself and when you're finished, you should feel like you succeeded in doing so.
I said mentally. I can focus on getting through the short bursts and since you don't do endless intervals, it is a small number to get through which I can focus on as well.
I find it difficult but I can mentally deal with it easier.
Anyway, if HIIT was the proven best method for building cardio vascular fitness then there would be at least one elite champion in the history of the universe that trained that way. But there isn't.
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Speaking of track cyclists quads, this is a good read:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/07/sports/olympics/olympic-cyclists-thigh-popping-success-starts-in-quads.html?_r=0
"The British track cyclist Chris Hoy, who collected his fifth career gold medal in the men’s team sprint Thursday, noted recently that his thighs measured 27 inches, or size 8 for a woman’s waist."
"At his peak, Staff said, he could squat about 529 pounds."
"Newell recommended living with noncyclists so as to finish what they do not eat. She also advocated drinking microbrews and having dessert with breakfast."0 -
I think going 100% for 20 seconds 10 or 15 times...
That's not even physically possible. The only way to do something "10 or 15 times" in rapid succession is if you're NOT "going 100%".
The "100%" doesn't refer to the person's "this is what it feels like" level, it's about what the body is actually doing. And even the bodies of very well trained athletes don't have 100% left to give after a handful of genuinely all-out efforts.
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I think going 100% for 20 seconds 10 or 15 times is going to be orders of magnitude easier than going 96% max for a continuous 20 min. (a 5K well raced) or 91% max for a continuous 90 min (a HM well raced).3dogsrunning wrote: »chivalryder wrote: »3dogsrunning wrote: »aobuchanan wrote: »High intensity interval cardio has been proven to be more effective that steady stay cardio. however it takes less time. It is more difficult. I think weight lifters are generally the type of people that spend so much time in diet and exercise that a lot of steady stay cardio would cause them to have to cut out on some of the stuff they love most, lifting and strength training. So why not use a more time efficient proven way to get the cardio done that does not involve hours of cardio, but is scientifically proven to be the most effective? I don't think weight lifters avoid cardio any more than cardio enthusiasts avoid lifting, Just sayin' ! Why would they want to lift, when all they want to do is run, and visa versa? why does it have to be a problem? To each his own. Do what you love and be happy. There is no One right way to do it. One is not better than the other. It's about what gets you the results you want and what makes you happy. Or else, what is it all for anyway? Happy lifting and happy trails.
Proven more effective for what?
I don't necessarily find it more difficult. The hard effort is challenging but it is also short. I find mentally HIIT can be easier than a particularly long run at a lower but sustained effort.
All I'm gonna say is: If you feel like HIIT is easier than anything, you're doing it wrong.
HIIT should be the hardest, most intense thing you ever do, if you do it. You should feel like you're killing yourself and when you're finished, you should feel like you succeeded in doing so.
I said mentally. I can focus on getting through the short bursts and since you don't do endless intervals, it is a small number to get through which I can focus on as well.
I find it difficult but I can mentally deal with it easier.
Anyway, if HIIT was the proven best method for building cardio vascular fitness then there would be at least one elite champion in the history of the universe that trained that way. But there isn't.
HIIT originally became popular after an Olympic rowing team used it to cut 20% off their times. I'd say elite athletes do you it, just not to the extreme as the masses believe they do. Probably only one training session a week.0 -
What's more fun is playing a game of flag football with some of them and watching them gas out after a few plays.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
conversely do you make fun of an endurance athelete who comes in to lift and isn't strong enough to squat 185- or even 135?
You can't give someone a hard time for not being good at something they don't train.
That's just asinine.
One of these day's, maybe during a rest week, I'll go into the weight room here and do a few squats. I am curious now what I can do. Before I started doing triathlon I was squatting 300. Now? I am sure it would be a joke
You can come squat with me- I won't judge... then we can go to the bike room and you can watch me literally melt into a puddle of despair in a matter of 25 minutes on the bike.
Sounds fun, where do I sing up ?What's more fun is playing a game of flag football with some of them and watching them gas out after a few plays.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 yeLars and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
conversely do you make fun of an endurance athelete who comes in to lift and isn't strong enough to squat 185- or even 135?
You can't give someone a hard time for not being good at something they don't train.
That's just asinine.
One of these day's, maybe during a rest week, I'll go into the weight room here and do a few squats. I am curious now what I can do. Before I started doing triathlon I was squatting 300. Now? I am sure it would be a joke
You can come squat with me- I won't judge... then we can go to the bike room and you can watch me literally melt into a puddle of despair in a matter of 25 minutes on the bike.
Sounds fun, where do I sign up ?
LOL- well I'm in the dirty jersey currently- so probably not any time soon- but when I visit CA- we'll throw down!!!
My only caviot is we hit the road on bikes and hit the hills for the final test
I'll the bring the life boat to navigate those deep puddles.
I would seriously die- I remember biking back in college- and I had to walk up the hell- for some reason- despite all my quad strength I have ZERO drive- its' like instant burning and murder. I'm pathetic.Jersey? Hell... my next Ironman race is in Atlantic City...
<---- That profile pic was taken in Princeton at the NJ State Tri in 2011
well if you're passing through the trenton/princeton area- give a holler- I'm all about me some coffee chats.0 -
I think the percentages referenced were HR zones.I think going 100% for 20 seconds 10 or 15 times...
That's not even physically possible. The only way to do something "10 or 15 times" in rapid succession is if you're NOT "going 100%".
The "100%" doesn't refer to the person's "this is what it feels like" level, it's about what the body is actually doing. And even the bodies of very well trained athletes don't have 100% left to give after a handful of genuinely all-out efforts.
I don't know about 10-15 times, but when I do 200 meter all-out sprints I get my HR to 100% (or "more") every time.0 -
Are you saying that the only people you see acting proud about it are only about their looks or are you saying that all lifters you see doing just weights and no cardio are only about their looks?
I don't think I proposed that well. I see people who strictly weight lift and would say cardio is useless are about lifting for lifting sake (or seem to end up that way) and that is their goal - lifting more to be bigger or look muscular and fit as their goals. It isn't a slam to anyone who just lifts.
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LiftAllThePizzas wrote: »
I think the percentages referenced were HR zones.I think going 100% for 20 seconds 10 or 15 times...
That's not even physically possible. The only way to do something "10 or 15 times" in rapid succession is if you're NOT "going 100%".
The "100%" doesn't refer to the person's "this is what it feels like" level, it's about what the body is actually doing. And even the bodies of very well trained athletes don't have 100% left to give after a handful of genuinely all-out efforts.
I don't know about 10-15 times, but when I do 200 meter all-out sprints I get my HR to 100% (or "more") every time.
Are you comparing to your lactate threshold or maximal heart rate?0 -
LiftAllThePizzas wrote: »
I think the percentages referenced were HR zones.I think going 100% for 20 seconds 10 or 15 times...
That's not even physically possible. The only way to do something "10 or 15 times" in rapid succession is if you're NOT "going 100%".
The "100%" doesn't refer to the person's "this is what it feels like" level, it's about what the body is actually doing. And even the bodies of very well trained athletes don't have 100% left to give after a handful of genuinely all-out efforts.
I don't know about 10-15 times, but when I do 200 meter all-out sprints I get my HR to 100% (or "more") every time.
HR isn't the right measure - it's >100% of V02 max that the "all out" needs to be hitting. The oft-cited Tabata protocol, for example, has trainees hitting >150% V02max.
The challenge with most exercisers is they don't know their actual HRmax. And HRmax isn't even constant - it can change with fitness level. From what I've seen, most un-coached people aren't getting very close to their maximum output, even though it feels like they're working their butts off.
And this is ignoring the reality that you already need to be quite fit to even think about hitting HRmax, short of being chased by a guy in a goalie mask wielding a chainsaw.
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What's more fun is playing a game of flag football with some of them and watching them gas out after a few plays.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
conversely do you make fun of an endurance athelete who comes in to lift and isn't strong enough to squat 185- or even 135?
You can't give someone a hard time for not being good at something they don't train.
That's just asinine.
One of these day's, maybe during a rest week, I'll go into the weight room here and do a few squats. I am curious now what I can do. Before I started doing triathlon I was squatting 300. Now? I am sure it would be a joke
You can come squat with me- I won't judge... then we can go to the bike room and you can watch me literally melt into a puddle of despair in a matter of 25 minutes on the bike.
Sounds fun, where do I sing up ?What's more fun is playing a game of flag football with some of them and watching them gas out after a few plays.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 yeLars and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
conversely do you make fun of an endurance athelete who comes in to lift and isn't strong enough to squat 185- or even 135?
You can't give someone a hard time for not being good at something they don't train.
That's just asinine.
One of these day's, maybe during a rest week, I'll go into the weight room here and do a few squats. I am curious now what I can do. Before I started doing triathlon I was squatting 300. Now? I am sure it would be a joke
You can come squat with me- I won't judge... then we can go to the bike room and you can watch me literally melt into a puddle of despair in a matter of 25 minutes on the bike.
Sounds fun, where do I sign up ?
LOL- well I'm in the dirty jersey currently- so probably not any time soon- but when I visit CA- we'll throw down!!!
My only caviot is we hit the road on bikes and hit the hills for the final test
I'll the bring the life boat to navigate those deep puddles.
I would seriously die- I remember biking back in college- and I had to walk up the hell- for some reason- despite all my quad strength I have ZERO drive- its' like instant burning and murder. I'm pathetic.Jersey? Hell... my next Ironman race is in Atlantic City...
<---- That profile pic was taken in Princeton at the NJ State Tri in 2011
well if you're passing through the trenton/princeton area- give a holler- I'm all about me some coffee chats.
Not to self: Must visit Trenton/Princeton area.0 -
chivalryder wrote: »
I think going 100% for 20 seconds 10 or 15 times is going to be orders of magnitude easier than going 96% max for a continuous 20 min. (a 5K well raced) or 91% max for a continuous 90 min (a HM well raced).3dogsrunning wrote: »chivalryder wrote: »3dogsrunning wrote: »aobuchanan wrote: »High intensity interval cardio has been proven to be more effective that steady stay cardio. however it takes less time. It is more difficult. I think weight lifters are generally the type of people that spend so much time in diet and exercise that a lot of steady stay cardio would cause them to have to cut out on some of the stuff they love most, lifting and strength training. So why not use a more time efficient proven way to get the cardio done that does not involve hours of cardio, but is scientifically proven to be the most effective? I don't think weight lifters avoid cardio any more than cardio enthusiasts avoid lifting, Just sayin' ! Why would they want to lift, when all they want to do is run, and visa versa? why does it have to be a problem? To each his own. Do what you love and be happy. There is no One right way to do it. One is not better than the other. It's about what gets you the results you want and what makes you happy. Or else, what is it all for anyway? Happy lifting and happy trails.
Proven more effective for what?
I don't necessarily find it more difficult. The hard effort is challenging but it is also short. I find mentally HIIT can be easier than a particularly long run at a lower but sustained effort.
All I'm gonna say is: If you feel like HIIT is easier than anything, you're doing it wrong.
HIIT should be the hardest, most intense thing you ever do, if you do it. You should feel like you're killing yourself and when you're finished, you should feel like you succeeded in doing so.
I said mentally. I can focus on getting through the short bursts and since you don't do endless intervals, it is a small number to get through which I can focus on as well.
I find it difficult but I can mentally deal with it easier.
Anyway, if HIIT was the proven best method for building cardio vascular fitness then there would be at least one elite champion in the history of the universe that trained that way. But there isn't.
HIIT originally became popular after an Olympic rowing team used it to cut 20% off their times. I'd say elite athletes do you it, just not to the extreme as the masses believe they do. Probably only one training session a week.
Olympic rowers are going to have a similar profile to their season as long distance runners or triathletes do. So from my perspective, using the bike as an example, my off season tends to have a bunch of mixed effort work. I'll have a day where it's all sprints. 15s all out, 15s rest, x 40 sort of thing. A couple days later it will be VO2max and SuperLT intervals in the 3-4 minute range (x10). Then a couple days later its your classic 2x20:00 Sub-LT workout. In between those is all my running and swimming. So in a sense, at least in off-season I'll have one day of sprinting each week which is similar enough to the HIIT concept.
Once the race season comes around the sprints disappear entirely, replaced by more endurance work. The VO2 intervals get dropped, but the superLT intervals stay. There is more sub-LT work to do.0 -
Because it's trendy. Someone mentioned earlier that there is a pervasive myth that to get lean you have to cardio. I think the whole do no cardio thing started as a way to stop that notion, and with good intention, but now has become the cool thing to do/say.
I don't think its a cool thing to do or say. Its a fact for me. I don't do any cardio.
I acheived this body with NO CARDIO. I say it bc I get asked all the time how much cardio? how much? Um none.
I dont have the time energy and I get extremely hungry. I over eat majorly and blow my deficit.
My heart rate gets up from lifing. I walk a lot. I have tracked a mile run for 3 years, from 15 mins down to 7 mins.
I look at the people toiling away doing cardio and their body comp never changes, they still have the rolls and belly fat, I feel sorry for them. If you like cardio do it, but get some weight training in there and really change your body. just my 2 cents0 -
Some people see it as only a way to lose weight, some people get that keeping heart and lungs healthy is important as much as maintaining a healthy weight. None of my business though what others do.0
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None of this is even relevant. Someone was talking about the relative difficulty of a 20 minute sustained effort of nearly the same amount as a quick all-out burst of 30 seconds.LiftAllThePizzas wrote: »
I think the percentages referenced were HR zones.I think going 100% for 20 seconds 10 or 15 times...
That's not even physically possible. The only way to do something "10 or 15 times" in rapid succession is if you're NOT "going 100%".
The "100%" doesn't refer to the person's "this is what it feels like" level, it's about what the body is actually doing. And even the bodies of very well trained athletes don't have 100% left to give after a handful of genuinely all-out efforts.
I don't know about 10-15 times, but when I do 200 meter all-out sprints I get my HR to 100% (or "more") every time.
HR isn't the right measure - it's >100% of V02 max that the "all out" needs to be hitting. The oft-cited Tabata protocol, for example, has trainees hitting >150% V02max.
The challenge with most exercisers is they don't know their actual HRmax. And HRmax isn't even constant - it can change with fitness level. From what I've seen, most un-coached people aren't getting very close to their maximum output, even though it feels like they're working their butts off.
And this is ignoring the reality that you already need to be quite fit to even think about hitting HRmax, short of being chased by a guy in a goalie mask wielding a chainsaw.
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sarahlifts wrote: »Because it's trendy. Someone mentioned earlier that there is a pervasive myth that to get lean you have to cardio. I think the whole do no cardio thing started as a way to stop that notion, and with good intention, but now has become the cool thing to do/say.
I don't think its a cool thing to do or say. Its a fact for me. I don't do any cardio.
I acheived this body with NO CARDIO. I say it bc I get asked all the time how much cardio? how much? Um none.
I dont have the time energy and I get extremely hungry. I over eat majorly and blow my deficit.
My heart rate gets up from lifing. I walk a lot. I have tracked a mile run for 3 years, from 15 mins down to 7 mins.
I look at the people toiling away doing cardio and their body comp never changes, they still have the rolls and belly fat, I feel sorry for them. If you like cardio do it, but get some weight training in there and really change your body. just my 2 cents
That's part of the argument, some people, like myself, don't care how the body looks as long as it functions well. Looking good is just a bonus, but not a necessity.
Thanks for the pretentiousness though.0 -
LiftAllThePizzas wrote: »
None of this is even relevant. Someone was talking about the relative difficulty of a 20 minute sustained effort of nearly the same amount as a quick all-out burst of 30 seconds.LiftAllThePizzas wrote: »
I think the percentages referenced were HR zones.I think going 100% for 20 seconds 10 or 15 times...
That's not even physically possible. The only way to do something "10 or 15 times" in rapid succession is if you're NOT "going 100%".
The "100%" doesn't refer to the person's "this is what it feels like" level, it's about what the body is actually doing. And even the bodies of very well trained athletes don't have 100% left to give after a handful of genuinely all-out efforts.
I don't know about 10-15 times, but when I do 200 meter all-out sprints I get my HR to 100% (or "more") every time.
HR isn't the right measure - it's >100% of V02 max that the "all out" needs to be hitting. The oft-cited Tabata protocol, for example, has trainees hitting >150% V02max.
The challenge with most exercisers is they don't know their actual HRmax. And HRmax isn't even constant - it can change with fitness level. From what I've seen, most un-coached people aren't getting very close to their maximum output, even though it feels like they're working their butts off.
And this is ignoring the reality that you already need to be quite fit to even think about hitting HRmax, short of being chased by a guy in a goalie mask wielding a chainsaw.
As soon as "all out" is in the discussion, it becomes relevant. It's impossible to even compare the two unless an objective measure is put in place - which also means its impossible to compare the two unless you're talking about an individual who can actually do both.
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It's not a badge of honour. I'm just not into it.0
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Okay, so I know I'm no longer young. For me, most cardio is pretty hard on my joints, so I have to do lower-impact, which (frankly) takes longer. I'm also a busy professional. At my age, bone density begins to become a concern, and the strength training is critical to my comfortable longevity. Having said all of that, though, finding whatever works for you is important. I love running when there is some reason for it: a tennis ball to hit, or a volleyball to dig. I don't love running just to run and be fit. I'll practice light weights daily because they don't take long and I don't get bored. A balance that works for you is best.0
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chivalryder wrote: »What's more fun is playing a game of flag football with some of them and watching them gas out after a few plays.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
conversely do you make fun of an endurance athelete who comes in to lift and isn't strong enough to squat 185- or even 135?
You can't give someone a hard time for not being good at something they don't train.
That's just asinine.
One of these day's, maybe during a rest week, I'll go into the weight room here and do a few squats. I am curious now what I can do. Before I started doing triathlon I was squatting 300. Now? I am sure it would be a joke
You can come squat with me- I won't judge... then we can go to the bike room and you can watch me literally melt into a puddle of despair in a matter of 25 minutes on the bike.
Sounds fun, where do I sing up ?What's more fun is playing a game of flag football with some of them and watching them gas out after a few plays.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 yeLars and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
conversely do you make fun of an endurance athelete who comes in to lift and isn't strong enough to squat 185- or even 135?
You can't give someone a hard time for not being good at something they don't train.
That's just asinine.
One of these day's, maybe during a rest week, I'll go into the weight room here and do a few squats. I am curious now what I can do. Before I started doing triathlon I was squatting 300. Now? I am sure it would be a joke
You can come squat with me- I won't judge... then we can go to the bike room and you can watch me literally melt into a puddle of despair in a matter of 25 minutes on the bike.
Sounds fun, where do I sign up ?
LOL- well I'm in the dirty jersey currently- so probably not any time soon- but when I visit CA- we'll throw down!!!
My only caviot is we hit the road on bikes and hit the hills for the final test
I'll the bring the life boat to navigate those deep puddles.
I would seriously die- I remember biking back in college- and I had to walk up the hell- for some reason- despite all my quad strength I have ZERO drive- its' like instant burning and murder. I'm pathetic.Jersey? Hell... my next Ironman race is in Atlantic City...
<---- That profile pic was taken in Princeton at the NJ State Tri in 2011
well if you're passing through the trenton/princeton area- give a holler- I'm all about me some coffee chats.
Not to self: Must visit Trenton/Princeton area.
hysterically I ment to type /Philly area but yes that too. all the things. same area- it's pretty close. AC isn't that close- it's well over an hour away- but the side up against Philly is mostly close to me.0
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