Protein World - "How could we possibly be sexist?"
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I agree with your main paragraph. Of course it's rough out there for men, and women, who don't project what's perceived as desirable traits in a mate. That's hardly "patriarchal Male Power Fantasy," though. High school guys are rarely in positions of true power so, of course, it's going to be more a question of at least potential physical superiority at that point. For the most part, they can't provide for someone, so they are more dependent on the less rational (in this day and age) aspects of "superiority" that are still rattling around in the more primitive parts of our brains.DeguelloTex wrote: »
Because gibberish like "patriarchal Male Power Fantasy" is already a parody of itself.shrinkingletters wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
You left out microagression and mansplaining, but you hit most of the buzzwords.shrinkingletters wrote: »KingofWisdom wrote: »Well, no one says anything when men are the ones being shamed. Men have body image issues too. Five to twelve percent of male high school students have used steroids by the time they are seniors. Off-topic, I know, but isn't the entire premise of viagra that you as a male are inadequate and need this magic drug to make yourself normal?
Yes actually, there are so many people, women included, who hate to see men shamed for not fitting into the patriarchal Male Power Fantasy of appearing jacked and hypermasculine.
You forgot manspreading
I hate that I attempted to express sympathy for the OP, which he appears to feel is something that is sorely lacking, and the dudes responding to it are turning it into a joke.
Wonder why that happens? Go figure.
So...you don't think our culture idealizes strong, powerful men as much as slim, youthful women? Because I sure think our collective expectations for men are just as frustrating as the ones we have for women...for men they just tend to be focused a little less on physical-appearance-as-sexual-attractiveness and more on power/money/strength as the key to a man's virility and sexual attractiveness.
It's just as rough out there for men who don't fit into that archetype as it is women who are a long way from fitness models.
If you're criticizing the third-wave jargon, that's fine, but I don't think the principle was too far off.
And, yeah, mostly it was about the buzzwords and jargon that are almost devoid of content at this point and act mainly as signaling mechanisms to others of the same mindset. If you think about it, it in itself is really not much more than a thinly veiled attempt at shaming.0 -
girlviernes wrote: »shrinkingletters wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »shrinkingletters wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
Because gibberish like "patriarchal Male Power Fantasy" is already a parody of itself.shrinkingletters wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
You left out microagression and mansplaining, but you hit most of the buzzwords.shrinkingletters wrote: »KingofWisdom wrote: »Well, no one says anything when men are the ones being shamed. Men have body image issues too. Five to twelve percent of male high school students have used steroids by the time they are seniors. Off-topic, I know, but isn't the entire premise of viagra that you as a male are inadequate and need this magic drug to make yourself normal?
Yes actually, there are so many people, women included, who hate to see men shamed for not fitting into the patriarchal Male Power Fantasy of appearing jacked and hypermasculine.
You forgot manspreading
I hate that I attempted to express sympathy for the OP, which he appears to feel is something that is sorely lacking, and the dudes responding to it are turning it into a joke.
Wonder why that happens? Go figure.
OR you don't actually care as much about OP's commonly expressed concern as you do being a Super Cool Tough Guy That's Like, Tired of Words, which hey, carry on, good sir.
I'm not, like, tired of words. I like words. I am a bit tired, though, of people who profess to be the physical and mental equal of any man and empowered self-sufficient moral agents who wilt in the face of those mean, mean words.shrinkingletters wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
Because gibberish like "patriarchal Male Power Fantasy" is already a parody of itself.shrinkingletters wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
You left out microagression and mansplaining, but you hit most of the buzzwords.shrinkingletters wrote: »KingofWisdom wrote: »Well, no one says anything when men are the ones being shamed. Men have body image issues too. Five to twelve percent of male high school students have used steroids by the time they are seniors. Off-topic, I know, but isn't the entire premise of viagra that you as a male are inadequate and need this magic drug to make yourself normal?
Yes actually, there are so many people, women included, who hate to see men shamed for not fitting into the patriarchal Male Power Fantasy of appearing jacked and hypermasculine.
You forgot manspreading
I hate that I attempted to express sympathy for the OP, which he appears to feel is something that is sorely lacking, and the dudes responding to it are turning it into a joke.
Wonder why that happens? Go figure.
OR you don't actually care as much about OP's commonly expressed concern as you do being a Super Cool Tough Guy That's Like, Tired of Words, which hey, carry on, good sir.
If you want to find some real patriarchal Male Power Fantasy, look toward the places where women are treated as chattel and have body parts cut off, not where some mean guy says most of his target market is women who appear to like the product. Of course, the problem there is that that would involve actual risk and involve dealing with people who won't be shamed by your labels and who'd just as soon slap you around as respond to you.
WAIT
You mean to tell me things are different/worse in other places???
EVERYONE, THAT'S IT. SHUT IT DOWN. PROBLEMS HERE ARE SOLVED! THERE HAVE BEEN OTHER PLACES ALL ALONG!
I think it's really something that the women in the 60s and the suffragettes even earlier should have considered, since they definitely had it good compared to some women in the world. That is the most legitimate reason to accept the status quo, after all!
Ugh! Don't interrupt the guy's thought process. He's simultaneously juggling three distraction tactics:
1) Look! Over There!
2) Be grateful you're not Over There and being slapped around, okay???
3) LOL also who's equal to men? NO ONE duh.0 -
DeguelloTex wrote: »
I agree with your main paragraph. Of course it's rough out there for men, and women, who don't project what's perceived as desirable traits in a mate. That's hardly "patriarchal Male Power Fantasy," though. High school guys are rarely in positions of true power so, of course, it's going to be more a question of at least potential physical superiority at that point. For the most part, they can't provide for someone, so they are more dependent on the less rational (in this day and age) aspects of "superiority" that are still rattling around in the more primitive parts of our brains.DeguelloTex wrote: »
Because gibberish like "patriarchal Male Power Fantasy" is already a parody of itself.shrinkingletters wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
You left out microagression and mansplaining, but you hit most of the buzzwords.shrinkingletters wrote: »KingofWisdom wrote: »Well, no one says anything when men are the ones being shamed. Men have body image issues too. Five to twelve percent of male high school students have used steroids by the time they are seniors. Off-topic, I know, but isn't the entire premise of viagra that you as a male are inadequate and need this magic drug to make yourself normal?
Yes actually, there are so many people, women included, who hate to see men shamed for not fitting into the patriarchal Male Power Fantasy of appearing jacked and hypermasculine.
You forgot manspreading
I hate that I attempted to express sympathy for the OP, which he appears to feel is something that is sorely lacking, and the dudes responding to it are turning it into a joke.
Wonder why that happens? Go figure.
So...you don't think our culture idealizes strong, powerful men as much as slim, youthful women? Because I sure think our collective expectations for men are just as frustrating as the ones we have for women...for men they just tend to be focused a little less on physical-appearance-as-sexual-attractiveness and more on power/money/strength as the key to a man's virility and sexual attractiveness.
It's just as rough out there for men who don't fit into that archetype as it is women who are a long way from fitness models.
If you're criticizing the third-wave jargon, that's fine, but I don't think the principle was too far off.
And, yeah, mostly it was about the buzzwords and jargon that are almost devoid of content at this point and act mainly as signaling mechanisms to others of the same mindset. If you think about it, it in itself is really not much more than a thinly veiled attempt at shaming.
You mean to say words mean things to people who know their meanings? Well, I never.
I'm glad to know that you're up in arms and totally throwing the conversation off the rails because of the words I chose and not because you disagree with my sympathizing with the OP at all about how unfair it is for men as well as women that there are these rigid standards of masculinity and femininity.0 -
Backing up, I guess I don't understand why it's assumed that ads like the one in question (is your beach body ready?!) are only aimed at women. For example, one of the more famous ads:
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lemurcat12 wrote: »Backing up, I guess I don't understand why it's assumed that ads like the one in question (is your beach body ready?!) are only aimed at women. For example, one of the more famous ads:
Its not assumed that they're only aimed at women. They've been aimed at men too, we're just talking about this specific instance, which is in no means devalidating any other issues that exist simultaneously.0 -
No, I'm saying it's of the same type of mistake as using "racism" to describe all sorts of things that have nothing to do with "racism" and serve only to dilute the term and make it less effective when applied to actual racism. It's "the boy who cried wolf" syndrome.shrinkingletters wrote: »girlviernes wrote: »shrinkingletters wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »shrinkingletters wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
Because gibberish like "patriarchal Male Power Fantasy" is already a parody of itself.shrinkingletters wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
You left out microagression and mansplaining, but you hit most of the buzzwords.shrinkingletters wrote: »KingofWisdom wrote: »Well, no one says anything when men are the ones being shamed. Men have body image issues too. Five to twelve percent of male high school students have used steroids by the time they are seniors. Off-topic, I know, but isn't the entire premise of viagra that you as a male are inadequate and need this magic drug to make yourself normal?
Yes actually, there are so many people, women included, who hate to see men shamed for not fitting into the patriarchal Male Power Fantasy of appearing jacked and hypermasculine.
You forgot manspreading
I hate that I attempted to express sympathy for the OP, which he appears to feel is something that is sorely lacking, and the dudes responding to it are turning it into a joke.
Wonder why that happens? Go figure.
OR you don't actually care as much about OP's commonly expressed concern as you do being a Super Cool Tough Guy That's Like, Tired of Words, which hey, carry on, good sir.
I'm not, like, tired of words. I like words. I am a bit tired, though, of people who profess to be the physical and mental equal of any man and empowered self-sufficient moral agents who wilt in the face of those mean, mean words.shrinkingletters wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
Because gibberish like "patriarchal Male Power Fantasy" is already a parody of itself.shrinkingletters wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
You left out microagression and mansplaining, but you hit most of the buzzwords.shrinkingletters wrote: »KingofWisdom wrote: »Well, no one says anything when men are the ones being shamed. Men have body image issues too. Five to twelve percent of male high school students have used steroids by the time they are seniors. Off-topic, I know, but isn't the entire premise of viagra that you as a male are inadequate and need this magic drug to make yourself normal?
Yes actually, there are so many people, women included, who hate to see men shamed for not fitting into the patriarchal Male Power Fantasy of appearing jacked and hypermasculine.
You forgot manspreading
I hate that I attempted to express sympathy for the OP, which he appears to feel is something that is sorely lacking, and the dudes responding to it are turning it into a joke.
Wonder why that happens? Go figure.
OR you don't actually care as much about OP's commonly expressed concern as you do being a Super Cool Tough Guy That's Like, Tired of Words, which hey, carry on, good sir.
If you want to find some real patriarchal Male Power Fantasy, look toward the places where women are treated as chattel and have body parts cut off, not where some mean guy says most of his target market is women who appear to like the product. Of course, the problem there is that that would involve actual risk and involve dealing with people who won't be shamed by your labels and who'd just as soon slap you around as respond to you.
WAIT
You mean to tell me things are different/worse in other places???
EVERYONE, THAT'S IT. SHUT IT DOWN. PROBLEMS HERE ARE SOLVED! THERE HAVE BEEN OTHER PLACES ALL ALONG!
I think it's really something that the women in the 60s and the suffragettes even earlier should have considered, since they definitely had it good compared to some women in the world. That is the most legitimate reason to accept the status quo, after all!
Ugh! Don't interrupt the guy's thought process. He's simultaneously juggling three distraction tactics:
1) Look! Over There!
2) Be grateful you're not Over There and being slapped around, okay???
3) LOL also who's equal to men? NO ONE duh.
I didn't say be grateful you're not having your genitals mutilated. I implied that there needs to be some sense of scale and proportion. That doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement in places other than the worst places. It means it's not very productive to use rhetorical devices to make the less imperfect places seem like wretched hives of scum and villainy when the "patriarchy" is paying willing women boatloads of money to look hot.
Nothing that I saw in the conversation up to that point called for looniness like "patriarchal Male Power Fantasy" to be injected. And, again, the response was directed mostly at the buzzword lunacy.
ETA: The accusation of distraction tactics from the injector of third wave nutcasery is high comedy and evidence of low self-awareness.
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shrinkingletters wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Backing up, I guess I don't understand why it's assumed that ads like the one in question (is your beach body ready?!) are only aimed at women. For example, one of the more famous ads:
Its not assumed that they're only aimed at women. They've been aimed at men too, we're just talking about this specific instance, which is in no means devalidating any other issues that exist simultaneously.
If it's being claimed as sexist, there seems to be implicit in that the assumption that women's body insecurity is being played on in a way that men's wouldn't be. I think women do tend to have more body insecurity/be judged more on our bodies, but ads like this one seem to be playing more on the general desire of everyone to fit an ideal.
I guess calling it sexist just doesn't make sense to me.
What the CEO said was dumb, but more anti-fat than sexist, also.0 -
DeguelloTex wrote: »
No, I'm saying it's of the same type of mistake as using "racism" to describe all sorts of things that have nothing to do with "racism" and serve only to dilute the term and make it less effective when applied to actual racism. It's "the boy who cried wolf" syndrome.shrinkingletters wrote: »girlviernes wrote: »shrinkingletters wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »shrinkingletters wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
Because gibberish like "patriarchal Male Power Fantasy" is already a parody of itself.shrinkingletters wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
You left out microagression and mansplaining, but you hit most of the buzzwords.shrinkingletters wrote: »KingofWisdom wrote: »Well, no one says anything when men are the ones being shamed. Men have body image issues too. Five to twelve percent of male high school students have used steroids by the time they are seniors. Off-topic, I know, but isn't the entire premise of viagra that you as a male are inadequate and need this magic drug to make yourself normal?
Yes actually, there are so many people, women included, who hate to see men shamed for not fitting into the patriarchal Male Power Fantasy of appearing jacked and hypermasculine.
You forgot manspreading
I hate that I attempted to express sympathy for the OP, which he appears to feel is something that is sorely lacking, and the dudes responding to it are turning it into a joke.
Wonder why that happens? Go figure.
OR you don't actually care as much about OP's commonly expressed concern as you do being a Super Cool Tough Guy That's Like, Tired of Words, which hey, carry on, good sir.
I'm not, like, tired of words. I like words. I am a bit tired, though, of people who profess to be the physical and mental equal of any man and empowered self-sufficient moral agents who wilt in the face of those mean, mean words.shrinkingletters wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
Because gibberish like "patriarchal Male Power Fantasy" is already a parody of itself.shrinkingletters wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
You left out microagression and mansplaining, but you hit most of the buzzwords.shrinkingletters wrote: »KingofWisdom wrote: »Well, no one says anything when men are the ones being shamed. Men have body image issues too. Five to twelve percent of male high school students have used steroids by the time they are seniors. Off-topic, I know, but isn't the entire premise of viagra that you as a male are inadequate and need this magic drug to make yourself normal?
Yes actually, there are so many people, women included, who hate to see men shamed for not fitting into the patriarchal Male Power Fantasy of appearing jacked and hypermasculine.
You forgot manspreading
I hate that I attempted to express sympathy for the OP, which he appears to feel is something that is sorely lacking, and the dudes responding to it are turning it into a joke.
Wonder why that happens? Go figure.
OR you don't actually care as much about OP's commonly expressed concern as you do being a Super Cool Tough Guy That's Like, Tired of Words, which hey, carry on, good sir.
If you want to find some real patriarchal Male Power Fantasy, look toward the places where women are treated as chattel and have body parts cut off, not where some mean guy says most of his target market is women who appear to like the product. Of course, the problem there is that that would involve actual risk and involve dealing with people who won't be shamed by your labels and who'd just as soon slap you around as respond to you.
WAIT
You mean to tell me things are different/worse in other places???
EVERYONE, THAT'S IT. SHUT IT DOWN. PROBLEMS HERE ARE SOLVED! THERE HAVE BEEN OTHER PLACES ALL ALONG!
I think it's really something that the women in the 60s and the suffragettes even earlier should have considered, since they definitely had it good compared to some women in the world. That is the most legitimate reason to accept the status quo, after all!
Ugh! Don't interrupt the guy's thought process. He's simultaneously juggling three distraction tactics:
1) Look! Over There!
2) Be grateful you're not Over There and being slapped around, okay???
3) LOL also who's equal to men? NO ONE duh.
I didn't say be grateful you're not having your genitals mutilated. I implied that there needs to be some sense of scale and proportion. That doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement in places other than the worst places. It means it's not very productive to use rhetorical devices to make the less imperfect places seem like wretched hives of scum and villainy when the "patriarchy" is paying willing women boatloads of money to look hot.
Nothing that I saw in the conversation up to that point called for looniness like "patriarchal Male Power Fantasy" to be injected. And, again, the response was directed mostly at the buzzword lunacy.
Oh do please continue to tell people how to explain things with words that don't sound a little too cuckoo-bananas for you. A heads up though, I have to lunch in 20 so I'll have to let go of your hand then.
Can someone cover me?0 -
How's it unfair?shrinkingletters wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
I agree with your main paragraph. Of course it's rough out there for men, and women, who don't project what's perceived as desirable traits in a mate. That's hardly "patriarchal Male Power Fantasy," though. High school guys are rarely in positions of true power so, of course, it's going to be more a question of at least potential physical superiority at that point. For the most part, they can't provide for someone, so they are more dependent on the less rational (in this day and age) aspects of "superiority" that are still rattling around in the more primitive parts of our brains.DeguelloTex wrote: »
Because gibberish like "patriarchal Male Power Fantasy" is already a parody of itself.shrinkingletters wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
You left out microagression and mansplaining, but you hit most of the buzzwords.shrinkingletters wrote: »KingofWisdom wrote: »Well, no one says anything when men are the ones being shamed. Men have body image issues too. Five to twelve percent of male high school students have used steroids by the time they are seniors. Off-topic, I know, but isn't the entire premise of viagra that you as a male are inadequate and need this magic drug to make yourself normal?
Yes actually, there are so many people, women included, who hate to see men shamed for not fitting into the patriarchal Male Power Fantasy of appearing jacked and hypermasculine.
You forgot manspreading
I hate that I attempted to express sympathy for the OP, which he appears to feel is something that is sorely lacking, and the dudes responding to it are turning it into a joke.
Wonder why that happens? Go figure.
So...you don't think our culture idealizes strong, powerful men as much as slim, youthful women? Because I sure think our collective expectations for men are just as frustrating as the ones we have for women...for men they just tend to be focused a little less on physical-appearance-as-sexual-attractiveness and more on power/money/strength as the key to a man's virility and sexual attractiveness.
It's just as rough out there for men who don't fit into that archetype as it is women who are a long way from fitness models.
If you're criticizing the third-wave jargon, that's fine, but I don't think the principle was too far off.
And, yeah, mostly it was about the buzzwords and jargon that are almost devoid of content at this point and act mainly as signaling mechanisms to others of the same mindset. If you think about it, it in itself is really not much more than a thinly veiled attempt at shaming.
You mean to say words mean things to people who know their meanings? Well, I never.
I'm glad to know that you're up in arms and totally throwing the conversation off the rails because of the words I chose and not because you disagree with my sympathizing with the OP at all about how unfair it is for men as well as women that there are these rigid standards of masculinity and femininity.
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DeguelloTex wrote: »
How's it unfair?shrinkingletters wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
I agree with your main paragraph. Of course it's rough out there for men, and women, who don't project what's perceived as desirable traits in a mate. That's hardly "patriarchal Male Power Fantasy," though. High school guys are rarely in positions of true power so, of course, it's going to be more a question of at least potential physical superiority at that point. For the most part, they can't provide for someone, so they are more dependent on the less rational (in this day and age) aspects of "superiority" that are still rattling around in the more primitive parts of our brains.DeguelloTex wrote: »
Because gibberish like "patriarchal Male Power Fantasy" is already a parody of itself.shrinkingletters wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
You left out microagression and mansplaining, but you hit most of the buzzwords.shrinkingletters wrote: »KingofWisdom wrote: »Well, no one says anything when men are the ones being shamed. Men have body image issues too. Five to twelve percent of male high school students have used steroids by the time they are seniors. Off-topic, I know, but isn't the entire premise of viagra that you as a male are inadequate and need this magic drug to make yourself normal?
Yes actually, there are so many people, women included, who hate to see men shamed for not fitting into the patriarchal Male Power Fantasy of appearing jacked and hypermasculine.
You forgot manspreading
I hate that I attempted to express sympathy for the OP, which he appears to feel is something that is sorely lacking, and the dudes responding to it are turning it into a joke.
Wonder why that happens? Go figure.
So...you don't think our culture idealizes strong, powerful men as much as slim, youthful women? Because I sure think our collective expectations for men are just as frustrating as the ones we have for women...for men they just tend to be focused a little less on physical-appearance-as-sexual-attractiveness and more on power/money/strength as the key to a man's virility and sexual attractiveness.
It's just as rough out there for men who don't fit into that archetype as it is women who are a long way from fitness models.
If you're criticizing the third-wave jargon, that's fine, but I don't think the principle was too far off.
And, yeah, mostly it was about the buzzwords and jargon that are almost devoid of content at this point and act mainly as signaling mechanisms to others of the same mindset. If you think about it, it in itself is really not much more than a thinly veiled attempt at shaming.
You mean to say words mean things to people who know their meanings? Well, I never.
I'm glad to know that you're up in arms and totally throwing the conversation off the rails because of the words I chose and not because you disagree with my sympathizing with the OP at all about how unfair it is for men as well as women that there are these rigid standards of masculinity and femininity.
The man who I was responding to-before the wheels totally came off thanks to you, expressed feeling it was unfair for men to be held to a standard of masculinity that not every man can achieve, and that he felt there wasn't enough sympathy for men who end up inevitably feeling insecure about it-he could probably tell you, but you've missed the point spending all this time telling me how to use my words and talk about genital mutilation in other countries, which is not a thing people don't know about, so thanks.0 -
You're the one who injected patriarchy nonsense.shrinkingletters wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
How's it unfair?shrinkingletters wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
I agree with your main paragraph. Of course it's rough out there for men, and women, who don't project what's perceived as desirable traits in a mate. That's hardly "patriarchal Male Power Fantasy," though. High school guys are rarely in positions of true power so, of course, it's going to be more a question of at least potential physical superiority at that point. For the most part, they can't provide for someone, so they are more dependent on the less rational (in this day and age) aspects of "superiority" that are still rattling around in the more primitive parts of our brains.DeguelloTex wrote: »
Because gibberish like "patriarchal Male Power Fantasy" is already a parody of itself.shrinkingletters wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
You left out microagression and mansplaining, but you hit most of the buzzwords.shrinkingletters wrote: »KingofWisdom wrote: »Well, no one says anything when men are the ones being shamed. Men have body image issues too. Five to twelve percent of male high school students have used steroids by the time they are seniors. Off-topic, I know, but isn't the entire premise of viagra that you as a male are inadequate and need this magic drug to make yourself normal?
Yes actually, there are so many people, women included, who hate to see men shamed for not fitting into the patriarchal Male Power Fantasy of appearing jacked and hypermasculine.
You forgot manspreading
I hate that I attempted to express sympathy for the OP, which he appears to feel is something that is sorely lacking, and the dudes responding to it are turning it into a joke.
Wonder why that happens? Go figure.
So...you don't think our culture idealizes strong, powerful men as much as slim, youthful women? Because I sure think our collective expectations for men are just as frustrating as the ones we have for women...for men they just tend to be focused a little less on physical-appearance-as-sexual-attractiveness and more on power/money/strength as the key to a man's virility and sexual attractiveness.
It's just as rough out there for men who don't fit into that archetype as it is women who are a long way from fitness models.
If you're criticizing the third-wave jargon, that's fine, but I don't think the principle was too far off.
And, yeah, mostly it was about the buzzwords and jargon that are almost devoid of content at this point and act mainly as signaling mechanisms to others of the same mindset. If you think about it, it in itself is really not much more than a thinly veiled attempt at shaming.
You mean to say words mean things to people who know their meanings? Well, I never.
I'm glad to know that you're up in arms and totally throwing the conversation off the rails because of the words I chose and not because you disagree with my sympathizing with the OP at all about how unfair it is for men as well as women that there are these rigid standards of masculinity and femininity.
The man who I was responding to-before the wheels totally came off thanks to you, expressed feeling it was unfair for men to be held to a standard of masculinity that not every man can achieve, and that he felt there wasn't enough sympathy for men who end up inevitably feeling insecure about it-he could probably tell you, but you've missed the point spending all this time telling me how to use my words and talk about genital mutilation in other countries, which is not a thing people don't know about, so thanks.
Your reading comprehension is as poor as your word choices. I certainly didn't tell you how to use your words. However, for someone who sees patriarchy hobgoblins behind every bush, it's not surprising that you'd try to spin it that way.
You sympathized with his view that such things were unfair. Surely you have some independent thoughts on why it's unfair for people to have standards by which they judge others. And, leaving apart that life is, and will always be, unfair, what's to be done about the high school cheerleader who wants to bang the masculine football player just because it makes the less masculine guy all sad inside? Is it her fault that the guy starts taking steroids? Isn't that a matriarchal power structure imposing standards of hyper-masculinity?
Will it also be unfair when we have high standards for intelligence, or programming talent, or the ability to function in a networked world and some men, or women, can't live up to the new ideal?
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shrinkingletters wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
You left out microagression and mansplaining, but you hit most of the buzzwords.shrinkingletters wrote: »KingofWisdom wrote: »Well, no one says anything when men are the ones being shamed. Men have body image issues too. Five to twelve percent of male high school students have used steroids by the time they are seniors. Off-topic, I know, but isn't the entire premise of viagra that you as a male are inadequate and need this magic drug to make yourself normal?
Yes actually, there are so many people, women included, who hate to see men shamed for not fitting into the patriarchal Male Power Fantasy of appearing jacked and hypermasculine.
You forgot manspreading
I hate that I attempted to express sympathy for the OP, which he appears to feel is something that is sorely lacking, and the dudes responding to it are turning it into a joke.
Wonder why that happens? Go figure.
Today I learned I had a sex change in my sleep. Ya know, there's a reason politics and religion are supposed to be against the rules here. People can't discuss them while remaining rational.0 -
DeguelloTex wrote: »
You're the one who injected patriarchy nonsense.shrinkingletters wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
How's it unfair?shrinkingletters wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
I agree with your main paragraph. Of course it's rough out there for men, and women, who don't project what's perceived as desirable traits in a mate. That's hardly "patriarchal Male Power Fantasy," though. High school guys are rarely in positions of true power so, of course, it's going to be more a question of at least potential physical superiority at that point. For the most part, they can't provide for someone, so they are more dependent on the less rational (in this day and age) aspects of "superiority" that are still rattling around in the more primitive parts of our brains.DeguelloTex wrote: »
Because gibberish like "patriarchal Male Power Fantasy" is already a parody of itself.shrinkingletters wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
You left out microagression and mansplaining, but you hit most of the buzzwords.shrinkingletters wrote: »KingofWisdom wrote: »Well, no one says anything when men are the ones being shamed. Men have body image issues too. Five to twelve percent of male high school students have used steroids by the time they are seniors. Off-topic, I know, but isn't the entire premise of viagra that you as a male are inadequate and need this magic drug to make yourself normal?
Yes actually, there are so many people, women included, who hate to see men shamed for not fitting into the patriarchal Male Power Fantasy of appearing jacked and hypermasculine.
You forgot manspreading
I hate that I attempted to express sympathy for the OP, which he appears to feel is something that is sorely lacking, and the dudes responding to it are turning it into a joke.
Wonder why that happens? Go figure.
So...you don't think our culture idealizes strong, powerful men as much as slim, youthful women? Because I sure think our collective expectations for men are just as frustrating as the ones we have for women...for men they just tend to be focused a little less on physical-appearance-as-sexual-attractiveness and more on power/money/strength as the key to a man's virility and sexual attractiveness.
It's just as rough out there for men who don't fit into that archetype as it is women who are a long way from fitness models.
If you're criticizing the third-wave jargon, that's fine, but I don't think the principle was too far off.
And, yeah, mostly it was about the buzzwords and jargon that are almost devoid of content at this point and act mainly as signaling mechanisms to others of the same mindset. If you think about it, it in itself is really not much more than a thinly veiled attempt at shaming.
You mean to say words mean things to people who know their meanings? Well, I never.
I'm glad to know that you're up in arms and totally throwing the conversation off the rails because of the words I chose and not because you disagree with my sympathizing with the OP at all about how unfair it is for men as well as women that there are these rigid standards of masculinity and femininity.
The man who I was responding to-before the wheels totally came off thanks to you, expressed feeling it was unfair for men to be held to a standard of masculinity that not every man can achieve, and that he felt there wasn't enough sympathy for men who end up inevitably feeling insecure about it-he could probably tell you, but you've missed the point spending all this time telling me how to use my words and talk about genital mutilation in other countries, which is not a thing people don't know about, so thanks.
Your reading comprehension is as poor as your word choices. I certainly didn't tell you how to use your words. However, for someone who sees patriarchy hobgoblins behind every bush, it's not surprising that you'd try to spin it that way.
You sympathized with his view that such things were unfair. Surely you have some independent thoughts on why it's unfair for people to have standards by which they judge others. And, leaving apart that life is, and will always be, unfair, what's to be done about the high school cheerleader who wants to bang the masculine football player just because it makes the less masculine guy all sad inside? Is it her fault that the guy starts taking steroids? Isn't that a matriarchal power structure imposing standards of hyper-masculinity?
Will it also be unfair when we have high standards for intelligence, or programming talent, or the ability to function in a networked world and some men, or women, can't live up to the new ideal?
I am so sorry, maybe Stacey just wasn't into you.-1 -
Maybe it's because I am american? and we just see more of this here? This is not different than what I see on every magazine cover at the checkout line of ever store I go to, has been that way for years.... I would love to see it change, but I don't see how this particular add stands out from all the others just like it? am I missing something?0
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4legsRbetterthan2 wrote: »Maybe it's because I am american? and we just see more of this here? This is not different than what I see on every magazine cover at the checkout line of ever store I go to, has been that way for years.... I would love to see it change, but I don't see how this particular add stands out from all the others just like it? am I missing something?
Yes, when I think of striving for the peak of human performance and improving myself.. I can't even. What would you like to see?
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I don't find it sexist or offensive. Honestly I don't really find his response to the backlash offensive, either.0
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I_Will_End_You wrote: »I don't find it sexist or offensive. Honestly I don't really find his response to the backlash offensive, either.
LOL. I figured I was the only one who felt this way. And yes, marketing gold!
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