Calorie deficit = no muscle mass gain. so why am I stronger?

waldo56

Everyone that thinks they build muscle in a deficit needs to go into a surplus and actually build a few pounds of muscle. When you know what it is actually like, it is pretty obvious that you did not build muscle in any meaningful quantity when in a deficit.

I argued the other side of this argument here long ago, firmly convinced that I had built muscle. Then I did some bulking and actually built muscle. Actually building muscle is obvious.

All that muscle weighs more than fat nonsense you see, in reality both weigh about what water weighs. A pound of muscle is about the size of a pint. It doesn't take a whole lot to be a pretty obvious difference.

waldo56

I'm not saying it's not true but this whole thing has confused me as well. I DEFINITELY have put on muscle and I've been eating at a deficit for about a year now. I am FAR from obese and I'm not a beginner...Soooo...what gives? Has my body just adjusted to the deficit or what? lol Although, honestly, I don't care what I read on the internet anymore. I just look at my body and see if what I'm doing is working for me personally.

You're not gaining muscle, you're losing fat. Thus, your muscles are beginning to show more so you appear to have gained size.

If muscles are being revealed just because I'm losing fat, how come people who just diet with no strength training at all don't have muscle definition? P.s. I'm not arguing your statement, I'm just asking because I sincerely have no clue. All of this makes my head hurt. lol

Strength training causes a semi-permanent pump in muscles, that takes a few weeks/months to really reach maximum effect. They fill up with water, get firm, and weight more. It is not new muscle. Quit strength training and within a week or two you'll pee away all this "muscle", and they will return to a soft state (though it will come back faster the next time around, unless you quit for a long time).

Lyadeia

People need to realize that "building muscle" and "gaining strength" are not the same thing. When you gain strength, you are just recruiting more muscle fibers that you already have, not creating new ones.

Think about learning...go to school, earn 3 Ph.D.'s, an M.D., and some various other degrees within a short period of time. Did you brain grow so large that it is bursting out of your skull? Or did you just start using more of what you already had to retain that new info?

lithezebra

All that muscle weighs more than fat nonsense you see, in reality both weigh about what water weighs. A pound of muscle is about the size of a pint. It doesn't take a whole lot to be a pretty obvious difference.

If that were true, then the water displacement method of measuring body fat percentage wouldn't work, because it is based on body fat having a lower mass per unit of volume than lean body mass does.

astronomicals

All that muscle weighs more than fat nonsense you see, in reality both weigh about what water weighs. A pound of muscle is about the size of a pint. It doesn't take a whole lot to be a pretty obvious difference.

If that were true, then the water displacement method of measuring body fat percentage wouldn't work, because it is based on body fat having a lower mass per unit of volume than lean body mass does.

ahhhhhhh

::face desk::

a pound is a pound is a pound


weight, volume, and density are NOT synonyms... FFS

astronomicals

wcr

brillmer

Reading thread~

Mustang_Susie

I'm not saying it's not true but this whole thing has confused me as well. I DEFINITELY have put on muscle and I've been eating at a deficit for about a year now. I am FAR from obese and I'm not a beginner...Soooo...what gives? Has my body just adjusted to the deficit or what? lol Although, honestly, I don't care what I read on the internet anymore. I just look at my body and see if what I'm doing is working for me personally.

You're not gaining muscle, you're losing fat. Thus, your muscles are beginning to show more so you appear to have gained size.

Okay, my arms have always been very skinny- my husband calls them spaghetti arms.
There was barely any fat for muscles to hide under.
I eat at a deficit but see definite muscle definition in my arms and shoulders that I didn't have before.
So, how does that fit into your explanation?

Ophidion

These were posted on another similar thread and are helpful...

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/weight-training-for-fat-loss-part-1.html

AnvilHead

Okay, my arms have always been very skinny- my husband calls them spaghetti arms.
There was barely any fat for muscles to hide under.
I eat at a deficit but see definite muscle definition in my arms and shoulders that I didn't have before.
So, how does that fit into your explanation?

1.) Your muscles fill with water/glycogen as a result of strength training, making them look more "full". This is not true muscle tissue gain, even though the muscles do appear more prominent.

2.) Even though you may not have had much fat covering the muscles, there was still fat there. As you lose it, muscle definition increases, revealing the fuller/more prominent muscles from 1) above.

Mustang_Susie

Okay, my arms have always been very skinny- my husband calls them spaghetti arms.
There was barely any fat for muscles to hide under.
I eat at a deficit but see definite muscle definition in my arms and shoulders that I didn't have before.
So, how does that fit into your explanation?

1.) Your muscles fill with water/glycogen as a result of strength training, making them look more "full". This is not true muscle tissue gain, even though the muscles do appear more prominent.

2.) Even though you may not have had much fat covering the muscles, there was still fat there. As you lose it, muscle definition increases, revealing the fuller/more prominent muscles from 1) above.

How long do your muscles stay "full" after strength training?
Is this temporary only lasting a few hours etc. or permanent if you continue to lift on a regular basis?

meshashesha2012

because just because your muscles repair and grow back stronger doesnt mean they grow bigger

neandermagnon

the obese beginner will see some initial muscle gains but this only lasts for about first two to three months of training...

You can get stronger while in a deficit, i.e. lift heavier stuff; it just means that your muscles are adapting to what you are lifting but you are not actually building additional muscle.

I have steadily increased my deadlift while eating in deficit; it does not mean that I have added muscle, just means I am stronger...big difference...

^^^ this. there are some special circumstances where you can gain a little muscle at a deficit, e.g. noob gains, muscle memory gains (e.g. where you regain muscle that you recently lost)

Also, gain in lean body mass does not mean growth of muscle tissue. Gain in lean body mass could be all kinds of things, including your muscles storing more glycogen which results in water weight gain, other water weight gains (e.g. from eating too much sodium), it could be a gain in bone density, there could be more food in your intestines, etc..... lean body mass is the weight of all of your body that isn't fat, and so a gain in lean body mass does not necessarily mean you've actually gained new muscle tissue.

As for strength - a lot of strength gains come from neuromuscular adaptation, i.e. your muscles get better at responding to the exercise and using more of the muscle fibres that you actually have, and using them more efficiently. You can see huge strength gains if you train right, without growing any new muscle tissue. After a certain level though, your body will need to build more muscle tissue to see further strength gains. but you'd be surprised how strong you can get with the muscles that you already have.

phjorg1

Okay, my arms have always been very skinny- my husband calls them spaghetti arms.
There was barely any fat for muscles to hide under.
I eat at a deficit but see definite muscle definition in my arms and shoulders that I didn't have before.
So, how does that fit into your explanation?

1.) Your muscles fill with water/glycogen as a result of strength training, making them look more "full". This is not true muscle tissue gain, even though the muscles do appear more prominent.

2.) Even though you may not have had much fat covering the muscles, there was still fat there. As you lose it, muscle definition increases, revealing the fuller/more prominent muscles from 1) above.

How long do your muscles stay "full" after strength training?
Is this temporary only lasting a few hours etc. or permanent if you continue to lift on a regular basis?

few days.

neandermagnon

I'm not saying it's not true but this whole thing has confused me as well. I DEFINITELY have put on muscle and I've been eating at a deficit for about a year now. I am FAR from obese and I'm not a beginner...Soooo...what gives? Has my body just adjusted to the deficit or what? lol Although, honestly, I don't care what I read on the internet anymore. I just look at my body and see if what I'm doing is working for me personally.

You're not gaining muscle, you're losing fat. Thus, your muscles are beginning to show more so you appear to have gained size.

Okay, my arms have always been very skinny- my husband calls them spaghetti arms.
There was barely any fat for muscles to hide under.
I eat at a deficit but see definite muscle definition in my arms and shoulders that I didn't have before.
So, how does that fit into your explanation?

1. noob gains (some muscle growth is possible in a deficit initally, but this stops after a short time)
2. increased blood flow within the muscles combined with increased storage of glycogen (and therefore water) within the muscle causes an increase in size that's often mistaken for muscle growth. this is known as "pump" in bodybuilding terms, and is frequently mistaken for muscle growth. Again, the muscle will not get bigger indefinitely from this, and in fact the pump goes away if you don't continue to work out regularly. This is the reason why a lot of women stop strength training, thinking that they put muscle on really, really easily and will turn into the incredible hulk if they continue. You can see a pump sometimes even after just a few workouts. I saw this in my shoulders and upper arms after just 1 week of stronglifts, but I knew it wasn't real muscle growth, just "pump"
3. after a pump and noob gains, you won't see your muscles get visibly bigger while eating at a deficit. Real growth of actual muscle tissue is really difficult to achieve, it requires a lot of training and eating at a surplus, and a lot of patience because it's slow for men to grow muscles, and even slower for women.

So there are lots of reasons why someone might think that they're growing muscle at a deficit beyond noob gains and muscle memory gains, but really it is extremely difficult to build new muscle tissue even eating at a surplus, especially if you're female. It's only when you have that as your primary goal that you realise just how difficult. You see a pump quickly, you see an increase in lean body mass from glycogen quickly, maybe you see some noob gains but all that stops and after that it's really, really difficult beyond those things, because after that the only thing that's going to make your muscles bigger is new muscle tissue.

stephanielynn76

1. noob gains (some muscle growth is possible in a deficit initally, but this stops after a short time)
2. increased blood flow within the muscles combined with increased storage of glycogen (and therefore water) within the muscle causes an increase in size that's often mistaken for muscle growth. this is known as "pump" in bodybuilding terms, and is frequently mistaken for muscle growth. Again, the muscle will not get bigger indefinitely from this, and in fact the pump goes away if you don't continue to work out regularly. This is the reason why a lot of women stop strength training, thinking that they put muscle on really, really easily and will turn into the incredible hulk if they continue. You can see a pump sometimes even after just a few workouts. I saw this in my shoulders and upper arms after just 1 week of stronglifts, but I knew it wasn't real muscle growth, just "pump"
3. after a pump and noob gains, you won't see your muscles get visibly bigger while eating at a deficit. Real growth of actual muscle tissue is really difficult to achieve, it requires a lot of training and eating at a surplus, and a lot of patience because it's slow for men to grow muscles, and even slower for women.

QFT. As a chick who has intentionally bulked twice over the last 2 years... I can attest to this. Building muscle is HARD. I have spent many months eating at a surplus and training like a beast to gain just a little more mass. In fact, I suspect it's going to take me at least 2 more years (bulking 7+ months each) to get to where I want to be in terms of muscle mass. I was eating upwards of 3000 calories per day towards the end of my last bulk. If my surplus only yielded me small-to-moderate mass gains then I assure you... you can't be making much progress in a deficit!

AnvilHead

QFT. As a chick who has intentionally bulked twice over the last 2 years... I can attest to this. Building muscle is HARD. I have spent many months eating at a surplus and training like a beast to gain just a little more mass. In fact, I suspect it's going to take me at least 2 more years (bulking 7+ months each) to get to where I want to be in terms of muscle mass. I was eating upwards of 3000 calories per day towards the end of my last bulk. If my surplus only yielded me small-to-moderate mass gains then I assure you... you can't be making much progress in a deficit!

...and here are a couple great articles by Lyle McDonald addressing muscle mass gain (and why it isn't happening in a caloric deficit):

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/general-philosophies-of-muscle-mass-gain.html

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/muscle-gain-mistakes.html

stephanielynn76

QFT. As a chick who has intentionally bulked twice over the last 2 years... I can attest to this. Building muscle is HARD. I have spent many months eating at a surplus and training like a beast to gain just a little more mass. In fact, I suspect it's going to take me at least 2 more years (bulking 7+ months each) to get to where I want to be in terms of muscle mass. I was eating upwards of 3000 calories per day towards the end of my last bulk. If my surplus only yielded me small-to-moderate mass gains then I assure you... you can't be making much progress in a deficit!

...and here are a couple great articles by Lyle McDonald addressing muscle mass gain (and why it isn't happening in a caloric deficit):

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/general-philosophies-of-muscle-mass-gain.html

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/muscle-gain-mistakes.html

^^Posted those same links on my blog like a year ago!

mrswine

Thanks for all the replies. It makes sense to me now... Especially the reference to PhDs and learning ( I'm a teacher... I'm all over that). Just to clarify, I believe that you can't gain muscle in a deficit because I have read enough research articles to back it up. But all of your clarification about why I seem to be getting stronger has really helped me understand what's happening in my body.

Also... Thanks for not turning the thread into one huge dramatic cat fight.

cmeiron

^^^ this. there are some special circumstances where you can gain a little muscle at a deficit, e.g. noob gains, muscle memory gains (e.g. where you regain muscle that you recently lost)

Also, gain in lean body mass does not mean growth of muscle tissue. Gain in lean body mass could be all kinds of things, including your muscles storing more glycogen which results in water weight gain, other water weight gains (e.g. from eating too much sodium), it could be a gain in bone density, there could be more food in your intestines, etc..... lean body mass is the weight of all of your body that isn't fat, and so a gain in lean body mass does not necessarily mean you've actually gained new muscle tissue.

As for strength - a lot of strength gains come from neuromuscular adaptation, i.e. your muscles get better at responding to the exercise and using more of the muscle fibres that you actually have, and using them more efficiently. You can see huge strength gains if you train right, without growing any new muscle tissue. After a certain level though, your body will need to build more muscle tissue to see further strength gains. but you'd be surprised how strong you can get with the muscles that you already have.

^^^ All of this.