Explain this contradiction.
Replies
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It Isn't the main predictor in success at maintenance. Which you were told repeatedly and explained why. You lack fundamental logical reasoning skills.0
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TimothyFish wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »"The newest science suggests that exercise alone will not make you thin, but it may determine whether you stay thin, if you can achieve that state. " (New York Times, 4/16/2010, link )
You have to be careful about conclusions about studies drawn by reporters, because they are usually wrong.
The studies here demonstrate nothing but correlation. Some scientists have some hypothesis about why those correlations might exist that they are exploring (similar to the arguments about saturated fat and various health issues). So far, it doesn't appear that they have much to establish that those hypotheses are accurate and there's nothing really surprising or in need of explanation about the correlation.
Personally, I exercise more when I'm in good shape because it's something I enjoy (I didn't enjoy it so much when fat). I also do personally find exercise helpful in losing and maintaining weight. Still just not seeing any contradictions here.
The thing about correlations is that they indicate dependence and allow us to make predictions, even if we don't fully understand how things are dependent. If we know that 90% of the successful exercise, we can predict that a person who doesn't exercise will not be successful, and we'll only be wrong 10% of the time.
I don't need to worry about what the reporters concluded, because the whole point of the thread was to ask the community what their own conclusions were. But I wanted to highlight he fact that exercise is less predictive of success in weight loss than it is in maintaining weight (and may even be detrimental to weight loss in some cases). That is what I call the "apparent contradiction," because we often assume that if we can figure out this weight loss thing and change our lifestyle in such a way that we are successful in weight loss, then we just need to continue that lifestyle at a higher calorie intake level to maintain our weight. The data doesn't predict that to be true. So the question remains: Why not?
No, they really don't.
What your chart shows is two sets of data that happen to have a similar curvature. Why do they follow a similar curve? In this case, it is caused by the increase in the population. With more people, there are more people spending money on organic food and there are also more people who can be diagnosed with autism. What we can predict from that is that as the population goes up, so will both of those.
But what the scientists are seeing in the connection between exercise and weight loss and maintenance is that the same people who are reporting that they have maintained their weight are reporting that they have been exercising. (Increasing the population doesn't change the results.) But exercise during weight loss or by overweight people doesn't match the results that are seen with people who are maintaining their weight.
Again, I ask, why not?
Because you're looking at a data set that has limitations and drawing conclusions from it you shouldn't. Bear in mind, no one has issues with the idea that exercise is a good thing. The problems all come down to how you're using and interpreting data here.
I could just as easily conclude, from the same registry data, that women are more likely to maintain weight loss than men.
Yes, you could, but I'm not aware of any other studies that back up that claim. There are multiple studies that indicate that exercise is more influential in weight maintenance than it is for weight loss.
Really? Post one that says that exact thing.
"The available evidence indicates that exercise is an important component of weight loss and perhaps the best predictor of weight maintenance." (bpgastro.com/article/S1521-6918(04)00083-6/abstract?cc=y=)
But that's not what you said.
Now, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.
The phrase "specific lack of insight" is coming to mind pretty strongly here.
Look, guy. The problem here is that you are absolutely sure you understand statistics, research, and indeed logical thought, and you don't. That's why you think there's a "contradiction." There's no contradiction; there's just a deficiency in both your understanding of the data and your understanding of what you do and don't understand. If you want to participate in conversations like this, here are two sources I recommend:
1. Kruger, J., & Dunning, D. (1999). Unskilled and unaware of it: how difficulties in recognizing one's own incompetence lead to inflated self-assessments. Journal of personality and social psychology, 77(6), 1121. (Read this one first)
2. Any introductory research design textbook.
For extra credit read an introductory text on formal logic. Then come back to us and have all the discussions like this you want from your newly knowledgeable position.0 -
TimothyFish wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »"The newest science suggests that exercise alone will not make you thin, but it may determine whether you stay thin, if you can achieve that state. " (New York Times, 4/16/2010, link )
You have to be careful about conclusions about studies drawn by reporters, because they are usually wrong.
The studies here demonstrate nothing but correlation. Some scientists have some hypothesis about why those correlations might exist that they are exploring (similar to the arguments about saturated fat and various health issues). So far, it doesn't appear that they have much to establish that those hypotheses are accurate and there's nothing really surprising or in need of explanation about the correlation.
Personally, I exercise more when I'm in good shape because it's something I enjoy (I didn't enjoy it so much when fat). I also do personally find exercise helpful in losing and maintaining weight. Still just not seeing any contradictions here.
The thing about correlations is that they indicate dependence and allow us to make predictions, even if we don't fully understand how things are dependent. If we know that 90% of the successful exercise, we can predict that a person who doesn't exercise will not be successful, and we'll only be wrong 10% of the time.
I don't need to worry about what the reporters concluded, because the whole point of the thread was to ask the community what their own conclusions were. But I wanted to highlight he fact that exercise is less predictive of success in weight loss than it is in maintaining weight (and may even be detrimental to weight loss in some cases). That is what I call the "apparent contradiction," because we often assume that if we can figure out this weight loss thing and change our lifestyle in such a way that we are successful in weight loss, then we just need to continue that lifestyle at a higher calorie intake level to maintain our weight. The data doesn't predict that to be true. So the question remains: Why not?
No, they really don't.
What your chart shows is two sets of data that happen to have a similar curvature. Why do they follow a similar curve? In this case, it is caused by the increase in the population. With more people, there are more people spending money on organic food and there are also more people who can be diagnosed with autism. What we can predict from that is that as the population goes up, so will both of those.
But what the scientists are seeing in the connection between exercise and weight loss and maintenance is that the same people who are reporting that they have maintained their weight are reporting that they have been exercising. (Increasing the population doesn't change the results.) But exercise during weight loss or by overweight people doesn't match the results that are seen with people who are maintaining their weight.
Again, I ask, why not?
Because you're looking at a data set that has limitations and drawing conclusions from it you shouldn't. Bear in mind, no one has issues with the idea that exercise is a good thing. The problems all come down to how you're using and interpreting data here.
I could just as easily conclude, from the same registry data, that women are more likely to maintain weight loss than men.
Yes, you could, but I'm not aware of any other studies that back up that claim. There are multiple studies that indicate that exercise is more influential in weight maintenance than it is for weight loss.
Really? Post one that says that exact thing.
"The available evidence indicates that exercise is an important component of weight loss and perhaps the best predictor of weight maintenance." (bpgastro.com/article/S1521-6918(04)00083-6/abstract?cc=y=)
But that's not what you said.
Now, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.
No, I'm really not. You came here positing a contradiction Tim.
Do you actually have a point?
0 -
http://www.gallup.com/poll/167645/vermont-no-frequent-exercise-produce-consumption.aspx
About half of all Americans exercise regularly.
Weight loss has about a 5% chance of successful long term maintenance as far as I know.
Even if the amount of people exercising was the same in in people actively trying to be healthy and maintain weight (it's very likely higher) AND all of the people who successfully maintained were people who exercised, that would still mean 90% of people who exercise fail at maintaining weight.
It isn't in any way shape or form a predictor for success in maintenance.
According to the poll, the residents in the state with the most exercising people also eat the most amount of fresh produce. Does exercising cause you to eat produce? Or is it the other way around?
OR is it that both are caused by a common third factor which is "trying to be healthy"?0 -
TimothyFish wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »"The newest science suggests that exercise alone will not make you thin, but it may determine whether you stay thin, if you can achieve that state. " (New York Times, 4/16/2010, link )
You have to be careful about conclusions about studies drawn by reporters, because they are usually wrong.
The studies here demonstrate nothing but correlation. Some scientists have some hypothesis about why those correlations might exist that they are exploring (similar to the arguments about saturated fat and various health issues). So far, it doesn't appear that they have much to establish that those hypotheses are accurate and there's nothing really surprising or in need of explanation about the correlation.
Personally, I exercise more when I'm in good shape because it's something I enjoy (I didn't enjoy it so much when fat). I also do personally find exercise helpful in losing and maintaining weight. Still just not seeing any contradictions here.
The thing about correlations is that they indicate dependence and allow us to make predictions, even if we don't fully understand how things are dependent. If we know that 90% of the successful exercise, we can predict that a person who doesn't exercise will not be successful, and we'll only be wrong 10% of the time.
I don't need to worry about what the reporters concluded, because the whole point of the thread was to ask the community what their own conclusions were. But I wanted to highlight he fact that exercise is less predictive of success in weight loss than it is in maintaining weight (and may even be detrimental to weight loss in some cases). That is what I call the "apparent contradiction," because we often assume that if we can figure out this weight loss thing and change our lifestyle in such a way that we are successful in weight loss, then we just need to continue that lifestyle at a higher calorie intake level to maintain our weight. The data doesn't predict that to be true. So the question remains: Why not?
No, they really don't.
What your chart shows is two sets of data that happen to have a similar curvature. Why do they follow a similar curve? In this case, it is caused by the increase in the population. With more people, there are more people spending money on organic food and there are also more people who can be diagnosed with autism. What we can predict from that is that as the population goes up, so will both of those.
But what the scientists are seeing in the connection between exercise and weight loss and maintenance is that the same people who are reporting that they have maintained their weight are reporting that they have been exercising. (Increasing the population doesn't change the results.) But exercise during weight loss or by overweight people doesn't match the results that are seen with people who are maintaining their weight.
Again, I ask, why not?
Because you're looking at a data set that has limitations and drawing conclusions from it you shouldn't. Bear in mind, no one has issues with the idea that exercise is a good thing. The problems all come down to how you're using and interpreting data here.
I could just as easily conclude, from the same registry data, that women are more likely to maintain weight loss than men.
Yes, you could, but I'm not aware of any other studies that back up that claim. There are multiple studies that indicate that exercise is more influential in weight maintenance than it is for weight loss.
Really? Post one that says that exact thing.
"The available evidence indicates that exercise is an important component of weight loss and perhaps the best predictor of weight maintenance." (bpgastro.com/article/S1521-6918(04)00083-6/abstract?cc=y=)
But that's not what you said.
Now, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.
no you are and have the entire thread. I haven't chimed in because of that fact.
It doesn't matter what anyone says here unless they agree with you....
Why? Because the common advice here is as follows:
1. Use a food scale it helps (you disagree and posted a thread about it)
2. Exercise is not required for weight loss only a calorie deficit is (you apparently disagree with this too)
so @TimothyFish you have lost weight without a food scale but have said you gained it back...do you exercise? do you plan on exercising while maintaining...did you exercise the last time you tried to maintain?
and if you do/did do you do it for an hour a day on average?
I have never said that a food scale isn't helpful to some people. All I have ever said is that it isn't required and we shouldn't be telling people that it is.
If you have been reading this thread, then you should know that I have repeatedly said that exercise is not required for weight loss. That is the whole point of the thread. Why is it that exercise isn't required for weight loss, but the studies show that it is the main predictor in success at maintenance? How many times do I have to repeat it to convince you people? Exercise is not required for weight loss.
Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.
As for when I lost weight before, I lost most of it with very little exercise, other than walking across campus between classes. (Hardly enough to count.) During the time that I was maintaining my weight, I was exercising. Was it an hour a day? No, not if I remember correctly. I only began to regain the weight when I stopped. So, my experience seems fairly consistent with what the studies show (not that that matters).
And you think that you gained the weight back simply because you didn't exercise and not because you ate to much?
Don't read something into it that I didn't say. Of course I gained weight because I ate too much. But what I think is probable is that I started eating too much because I stopped exercising. When I'm exercising, I can keep a package of cookies or a cherry pie around the house for days without having much appetite for it. When I'm not, I'll not only have two pieces of pie after supper, I'll buy the 800 calorie honey bun out of the vending machine at work, after eating a two serving bowl of cereal before heading out the door.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »http://www.gallup.com/poll/167645/vermont-no-frequent-exercise-produce-consumption.aspx
About half of all Americans exercise regularly.
Weight loss has about a 5% chance of successful long term maintenance as far as I know.
Even if the amount of people exercising was the same in in people actively trying to be healthy and maintain weight (it's very likely higher) AND all of the people who successfully maintained were people who exercised, that would still mean 90% of people who exercise fail at maintaining weight.
It isn't in any way shape or form a predictor for success in maintenance.
According to the poll, the residents in the state with the most exercising people also eat the most amount of fresh produce. Does exercising cause you to eat produce? Or is it the other way around?
OR is it that both are caused by a common third factor which is "trying to be healthy"?
That's a good question.0 -
TimothyFish wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »"The newest science suggests that exercise alone will not make you thin, but it may determine whether you stay thin, if you can achieve that state. " (New York Times, 4/16/2010, link )
You have to be careful about conclusions about studies drawn by reporters, because they are usually wrong.
The studies here demonstrate nothing but correlation. Some scientists have some hypothesis about why those correlations might exist that they are exploring (similar to the arguments about saturated fat and various health issues). So far, it doesn't appear that they have much to establish that those hypotheses are accurate and there's nothing really surprising or in need of explanation about the correlation.
Personally, I exercise more when I'm in good shape because it's something I enjoy (I didn't enjoy it so much when fat). I also do personally find exercise helpful in losing and maintaining weight. Still just not seeing any contradictions here.
The thing about correlations is that they indicate dependence and allow us to make predictions, even if we don't fully understand how things are dependent. If we know that 90% of the successful exercise, we can predict that a person who doesn't exercise will not be successful, and we'll only be wrong 10% of the time.
I don't need to worry about what the reporters concluded, because the whole point of the thread was to ask the community what their own conclusions were. But I wanted to highlight he fact that exercise is less predictive of success in weight loss than it is in maintaining weight (and may even be detrimental to weight loss in some cases). That is what I call the "apparent contradiction," because we often assume that if we can figure out this weight loss thing and change our lifestyle in such a way that we are successful in weight loss, then we just need to continue that lifestyle at a higher calorie intake level to maintain our weight. The data doesn't predict that to be true. So the question remains: Why not?
No, they really don't.
What your chart shows is two sets of data that happen to have a similar curvature. Why do they follow a similar curve? In this case, it is caused by the increase in the population. With more people, there are more people spending money on organic food and there are also more people who can be diagnosed with autism. What we can predict from that is that as the population goes up, so will both of those.
But what the scientists are seeing in the connection between exercise and weight loss and maintenance is that the same people who are reporting that they have maintained their weight are reporting that they have been exercising. (Increasing the population doesn't change the results.) But exercise during weight loss or by overweight people doesn't match the results that are seen with people who are maintaining their weight.
Again, I ask, why not?
Because you're looking at a data set that has limitations and drawing conclusions from it you shouldn't. Bear in mind, no one has issues with the idea that exercise is a good thing. The problems all come down to how you're using and interpreting data here.
I could just as easily conclude, from the same registry data, that women are more likely to maintain weight loss than men.
Yes, you could, but I'm not aware of any other studies that back up that claim. There are multiple studies that indicate that exercise is more influential in weight maintenance than it is for weight loss.
Really? Post one that says that exact thing.
"The available evidence indicates that exercise is an important component of weight loss and perhaps the best predictor of weight maintenance." (bpgastro.com/article/S1521-6918(04)00083-6/abstract?cc=y=)
But that's not what you said.
Now, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.
no you are and have the entire thread. I haven't chimed in because of that fact.
It doesn't matter what anyone says here unless they agree with you....
Why? Because the common advice here is as follows:
1. Use a food scale it helps (you disagree and posted a thread about it)
2. Exercise is not required for weight loss only a calorie deficit is (you apparently disagree with this too)
so @TimothyFish you have lost weight without a food scale but have said you gained it back...do you exercise? do you plan on exercising while maintaining...did you exercise the last time you tried to maintain?
and if you do/did do you do it for an hour a day on average?
I have never said that a food scale isn't helpful to some people. All I have ever said is that it isn't required and we shouldn't be telling people that it is.
If you have been reading this thread, then you should know that I have repeatedly said that exercise is not required for weight loss. That is the whole point of the thread. Why is it that exercise isn't required for weight loss, but the studies show that it is the main predictor in success at maintenance? How many times do I have to repeat it to convince you people? Exercise is not required for weight loss.
Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.
As for when I lost weight before, I lost most of it with very little exercise, other than walking across campus between classes. (Hardly enough to count.) During the time that I was maintaining my weight, I was exercising. Was it an hour a day? No, not if I remember correctly. I only began to regain the weight when I stopped. So, my experience seems fairly consistent with what the studies show (not that that matters).
And you think that you gained the weight back simply because you didn't exercise and not because you ate to much?
Don't read something into it that I didn't say. Of course I gained weight because I ate too much. But what I think is probable is that I started eating too much because I stopped exercising. When I'm exercising, I can keep a package of cookies or a cherry pie around the house for days without having much appetite for it. When I'm not, I'll not only have two pieces of pie after supper, I'll buy the 800 calorie honey bun out of the vending machine at work, after eating a two serving bowl of cereal before heading out the door.
I at times behave similarly to this - it's because regular exercise helps me to regulate my stress levels, and as a naturally anxious person, I do sometimes turn to comfort food when something is troubling me. If I'm running/going to the gym regularly, my stress levels are lower and I do this much less.
Not saying this is true for everyone who exercises and successfully maintains, but it's a pattern I notice in myself.0 -
TimothyFish wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »"The newest science suggests that exercise alone will not make you thin, but it may determine whether you stay thin, if you can achieve that state. " (New York Times, 4/16/2010, link )
You have to be careful about conclusions about studies drawn by reporters, because they are usually wrong.
The studies here demonstrate nothing but correlation. Some scientists have some hypothesis about why those correlations might exist that they are exploring (similar to the arguments about saturated fat and various health issues). So far, it doesn't appear that they have much to establish that those hypotheses are accurate and there's nothing really surprising or in need of explanation about the correlation.
Personally, I exercise more when I'm in good shape because it's something I enjoy (I didn't enjoy it so much when fat). I also do personally find exercise helpful in losing and maintaining weight. Still just not seeing any contradictions here.
The thing about correlations is that they indicate dependence and allow us to make predictions, even if we don't fully understand how things are dependent. If we know that 90% of the successful exercise, we can predict that a person who doesn't exercise will not be successful, and we'll only be wrong 10% of the time.
I don't need to worry about what the reporters concluded, because the whole point of the thread was to ask the community what their own conclusions were. But I wanted to highlight he fact that exercise is less predictive of success in weight loss than it is in maintaining weight (and may even be detrimental to weight loss in some cases). That is what I call the "apparent contradiction," because we often assume that if we can figure out this weight loss thing and change our lifestyle in such a way that we are successful in weight loss, then we just need to continue that lifestyle at a higher calorie intake level to maintain our weight. The data doesn't predict that to be true. So the question remains: Why not?
No, they really don't.
What your chart shows is two sets of data that happen to have a similar curvature. Why do they follow a similar curve? In this case, it is caused by the increase in the population. With more people, there are more people spending money on organic food and there are also more people who can be diagnosed with autism. What we can predict from that is that as the population goes up, so will both of those.
But what the scientists are seeing in the connection between exercise and weight loss and maintenance is that the same people who are reporting that they have maintained their weight are reporting that they have been exercising. (Increasing the population doesn't change the results.) But exercise during weight loss or by overweight people doesn't match the results that are seen with people who are maintaining their weight.
Again, I ask, why not?
Because you're looking at a data set that has limitations and drawing conclusions from it you shouldn't. Bear in mind, no one has issues with the idea that exercise is a good thing. The problems all come down to how you're using and interpreting data here.
I could just as easily conclude, from the same registry data, that women are more likely to maintain weight loss than men.
Yes, you could, but I'm not aware of any other studies that back up that claim. There are multiple studies that indicate that exercise is more influential in weight maintenance than it is for weight loss.
Really? Post one that says that exact thing.
"The available evidence indicates that exercise is an important component of weight loss and perhaps the best predictor of weight maintenance." (bpgastro.com/article/S1521-6918(04)00083-6/abstract?cc=y=)
But that's not what you said.
Now, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.
no you are and have the entire thread. I haven't chimed in because of that fact.
It doesn't matter what anyone says here unless they agree with you....
Why? Because the common advice here is as follows:
1. Use a food scale it helps (you disagree and posted a thread about it)
2. Exercise is not required for weight loss only a calorie deficit is (you apparently disagree with this too)
so @TimothyFish you have lost weight without a food scale but have said you gained it back...do you exercise? do you plan on exercising while maintaining...did you exercise the last time you tried to maintain?
and if you do/did do you do it for an hour a day on average?
I have never said that a food scale isn't helpful to some people. All I have ever said is that it isn't required and we shouldn't be telling people that it is.
If you have been reading this thread, then you should know that I have repeatedly said that exercise is not required for weight loss. That is the whole point of the thread. Why is it that exercise isn't required for weight loss, but the studies show that it is the main predictor in success at maintenance? How many times do I have to repeat it to convince you people? Exercise is not required for weight loss.
Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.
As for when I lost weight before, I lost most of it with very little exercise, other than walking across campus between classes. (Hardly enough to count.) During the time that I was maintaining my weight, I was exercising. Was it an hour a day? No, not if I remember correctly. I only began to regain the weight when I stopped. So, my experience seems fairly consistent with what the studies show (not that that matters).
And you think that you gained the weight back simply because you didn't exercise and not because you ate to much?
Don't read something into it that I didn't say. Of course I gained weight because I ate too much. But what I think is probable is that I started eating too much because I stopped exercising. When I'm exercising, I can keep a package of cookies or a cherry pie around the house for days without having much appetite for it. When I'm not, I'll not only have two pieces of pie after supper, I'll buy the 800 calorie honey bun out of the vending machine at work, after eating a two serving bowl of cereal before heading out the door.
I at times behave similarly to this - it's because regular exercise helps me to regulate my stress levels, and as a naturally anxious person, I do sometimes turn to comfort food when something is troubling me. If I'm running/going to the gym regularly, my stress levels are lower and I do this much less.
Not saying this is true for everyone who exercises and successfully maintains, but it's a pattern I notice in myself.
Along that line and along the line of the question that @stevencloser asked, I find that when I am exercising that my comfort food changes. It may be partly from dehydration, but when I am exercising, I gravitate more toward foods with a lot of water content (salads, fruit, vegetables) because I keep thinking about how it will quench my thirst. When I'm not exercising, I don't have the same level of thirst when I'm thinking about food, so my comfort foods tend to be glazed or fried.0 -
<snip>
If you are exercising mainly to lose weight, 30 minutes or so a day may work if you’re careful about how much you eat. (3) If you don’t make an effort to trim calories or at least hold them steady, you would likely need to exercise much more—or more vigorously—to lose weight. (1)
Physical activity can also help people keep off the pounds that they have lost. (1) Among the nearly 3,700 men and women who are part of the National Weight Control Registry, a select club that includes only people who lost more than 30 pounds and kept them off for at least a year, the average participant burns an average of about 400 calories per day in physical activity. That’s the equivalent of about 60 to 75 minutes of brisk walking each day, or 35 to 40 minutes of daily jogging. (4) But there’s quite a bit of variation from participant to participant—some require more physical activity to keep the weight off, some require less.
In sum, while the precise amount of exercise needed to maintain or achieve a healthy weight may vary based on your diet and your genes, the American College of Sports Medicine and the American Heart Association conclude that “more activity increases the probability of success.” (5)
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/exercise-weight-loss/
and interpretation of the NWLR information from Harvard
and I read this same interpretation on a few other sites.
So basically the last bolded statement holds the crux of the matter.
The first bolded is true as well and often said here...
It's not a contradiction really...exercise to lose not required...exercise to maintain not required but will increase the probability of success...0 -
TimothyFish wrote: »The National Registry of Weight Control reveals that 90% of the people who maintained a loss of 30 pounds or more for at least a year exercise about 1 hour per day. So, exercise is the most important factor when maintaining weight loss, but during the dieting phase, calorie restriction is more important, even to the point that people are often told that exercise isn’t required. Explain this apparent contradiction.
exercise isn't required for either losing weight or maintenance...but exercise makes it about a million times easier to lose weight or maintain weight due to the fact that calorie targets are paltry otherwise. If I didn't exercise, my maintenance is only around 2300 - 2500 calories per day...I'm going to overeat that easily....with exercise, my maintenance is closer to 3000 calories per day...I can maintain quite easily on that without much trouble.
I've maintained my loss of 40 Lbs for over 2 years...I do exercise regularly, but I also exercise a variety of other healthful habits. Being healthy and fit and maintaining a healthy weight is simply a bi-product of living an overwhelmingly healthful lifestyle...which also includes watching my diet.0 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »The National Registry of Weight Control reveals that 90% of the people who maintained a loss of 30 pounds or more for at least a year exercise about 1 hour per day. So, exercise is the most important factor when maintaining weight loss, but during the dieting phase, calorie restriction is more important, even to the point that people are often told that exercise isn’t required. Explain this apparent contradiction.
exercise isn't required for either losing weight or maintenance...but exercise makes it about a million times easier to lose weight or maintain weight due to the fact that calorie targets are paltry otherwise. If I didn't exercise, my maintenance is only around 2300 - 2500 calories per day...I'm going to overeat that easily....with exercise, my maintenance is closer to 3000 calories per day...I can maintain quite easily on that without giving it a whole lot of thought.
I've maintained my loss of 40 Lbs for over 2 years...I do exercise regularly, but I also exercise a variety of other healthful habits. Being healthy and fit and maintaining a healthy weight is simply a bi-product of living an overwhelmingly healthful lifestyle...
Yup. You've got to make a lot of changes.
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mamapeach910 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »The National Registry of Weight Control reveals that 90% of the people who maintained a loss of 30 pounds or more for at least a year exercise about 1 hour per day. So, exercise is the most important factor when maintaining weight loss, but during the dieting phase, calorie restriction is more important, even to the point that people are often told that exercise isn’t required. Explain this apparent contradiction.
exercise isn't required for either losing weight or maintenance...but exercise makes it about a million times easier to lose weight or maintain weight due to the fact that calorie targets are paltry otherwise. If I didn't exercise, my maintenance is only around 2300 - 2500 calories per day...I'm going to overeat that easily....with exercise, my maintenance is closer to 3000 calories per day...I can maintain quite easily on that without giving it a whole lot of thought.
I've maintained my loss of 40 Lbs for over 2 years...I do exercise regularly, but I also exercise a variety of other healthful habits. Being healthy and fit and maintaining a healthy weight is simply a bi-product of living an overwhelmingly healthful lifestyle...
Yup. You've got to make a lot of changes.Being healthy and fit and maintaining a healthy weight is simply a bi-product of living an overwhelmingly healthful lifestyle
exactly...people make huge changes for health...0 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »The National Registry of Weight Control reveals that 90% of the people who maintained a loss of 30 pounds or more for at least a year exercise about 1 hour per day. So, exercise is the most important factor when maintaining weight loss, but during the dieting phase, calorie restriction is more important, even to the point that people are often told that exercise isn’t required. Explain this apparent contradiction.
exercise isn't required for either losing weight or maintenance...but exercise makes it about a million times easier to lose weight or maintain weight due to the fact that calorie targets are paltry otherwise. If I didn't exercise, my maintenance is only around 2300 - 2500 calories per day...I'm going to overeat that easily....with exercise, my maintenance is closer to 3000 calories per day...I can maintain quite easily on that without much trouble.
I've maintained my loss of 40 Lbs for over 2 years...I do exercise regularly, but I also exercise a variety of other healthful habits. Being healthy and fit and maintaining a healthy weight is simply a bi-product of living an overwhelmingly healthful lifestyle...which also includes watching my diet.
Very well said.0 -
TimothyFish wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »"The newest science suggests that exercise alone will not make you thin, but it may determine whether you stay thin, if you can achieve that state. " (New York Times, 4/16/2010, link )
You have to be careful about conclusions about studies drawn by reporters, because they are usually wrong.
The studies here demonstrate nothing but correlation. Some scientists have some hypothesis about why those correlations might exist that they are exploring (similar to the arguments about saturated fat and various health issues). So far, it doesn't appear that they have much to establish that those hypotheses are accurate and there's nothing really surprising or in need of explanation about the correlation.
Personally, I exercise more when I'm in good shape because it's something I enjoy (I didn't enjoy it so much when fat). I also do personally find exercise helpful in losing and maintaining weight. Still just not seeing any contradictions here.
The thing about correlations is that they indicate dependence and allow us to make predictions, even if we don't fully understand how things are dependent. If we know that 90% of the successful exercise, we can predict that a person who doesn't exercise will not be successful, and we'll only be wrong 10% of the time.
I don't need to worry about what the reporters concluded, because the whole point of the thread was to ask the community what their own conclusions were. But I wanted to highlight he fact that exercise is less predictive of success in weight loss than it is in maintaining weight (and may even be detrimental to weight loss in some cases). That is what I call the "apparent contradiction," because we often assume that if we can figure out this weight loss thing and change our lifestyle in such a way that we are successful in weight loss, then we just need to continue that lifestyle at a higher calorie intake level to maintain our weight. The data doesn't predict that to be true. So the question remains: Why not?
No, they really don't.
What your chart shows is two sets of data that happen to have a similar curvature. Why do they follow a similar curve? In this case, it is caused by the increase in the population. With more people, there are more people spending money on organic food and there are also more people who can be diagnosed with autism. What we can predict from that is that as the population goes up, so will both of those.
But what the scientists are seeing in the connection between exercise and weight loss and maintenance is that the same people who are reporting that they have maintained their weight are reporting that they have been exercising. (Increasing the population doesn't change the results.) But exercise during weight loss or by overweight people doesn't match the results that are seen with people who are maintaining their weight.
Again, I ask, why not?
Because you're looking at a data set that has limitations and drawing conclusions from it you shouldn't. Bear in mind, no one has issues with the idea that exercise is a good thing. The problems all come down to how you're using and interpreting data here.
I could just as easily conclude, from the same registry data, that women are more likely to maintain weight loss than men.
Yes, you could, but I'm not aware of any other studies that back up that claim. There are multiple studies that indicate that exercise is more influential in weight maintenance than it is for weight loss.
Really? Post one that says that exact thing.
"The available evidence indicates that exercise is an important component of weight loss and perhaps the best predictor of weight maintenance." (bpgastro.com/article/S1521-6918(04)00083-6/abstract?cc=y=)
But that's not what you said.
Now, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.
no you are and have the entire thread. I haven't chimed in because of that fact.
It doesn't matter what anyone says here unless they agree with you....
Why? Because the common advice here is as follows:
1. Use a food scale it helps (you disagree and posted a thread about it)
2. Exercise is not required for weight loss only a calorie deficit is (you apparently disagree with this too)
so @TimothyFish you have lost weight without a food scale but have said you gained it back...do you exercise? do you plan on exercising while maintaining...did you exercise the last time you tried to maintain?
and if you do/did do you do it for an hour a day on average?
I have never said that a food scale isn't helpful to some people. All I have ever said is that it isn't required and we shouldn't be telling people that it is.
If you have been reading this thread, then you should know that I have repeatedly said that exercise is not required for weight loss. That is the whole point of the thread. Why is it that exercise isn't required for weight loss, but the studies show that it is the main predictor in success at maintenance? How many times do I have to repeat it to convince you people? Exercise is not required for weight loss.
Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.Exercise is not required for weight loss.
As for when I lost weight before, I lost most of it with very little exercise, other than walking across campus between classes. (Hardly enough to count.) During the time that I was maintaining my weight, I was exercising. Was it an hour a day? No, not if I remember correctly. I only began to regain the weight when I stopped. So, my experience seems fairly consistent with what the studies show (not that that matters).
Now, this reply is plain obnoxious.
The reason you gained weight when you stopped walking is because you killed your calorie deficit.
When you stopped walking, you had two choices: continue eating as you were while exercising and gain weight, or eat less to accommodate for lack of exercising and maintain weight.
You can maintain weight without exercise. The study just gives the percentage commonalities between people who have lost weight and kept it off, it does not say that exercise is required for weight loss. So, it seems to me your interpretation might be flawed.0 -
I would also add this...my guess is that those who maintain weight long term are overwhelmingly focused on health overall, not just weight loss or weight control. Exercise may not be necessary for weight control, but really it is necessary for health.
People who are into good livin and being healthy are going to do things commensurate with good livin...i.e. they're going to eat overwhelmingly healthful diet, they are going to exercise regularly, they're going to be generally active when they can be, they're going to get plenty of rest, etc.
As I stated previously, maintaining a healthy weight is really just a bi-product of good livin' in general.0 -
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I think it is the difference between a long term lifestyle change and a short term "diet". A lot of people watch calories and are constantly motivated by the decreasing scale weight. But if that's all there is, if you don't truly embrace it as changing your life, then it's easy to slip back into old habits once the scale stops moving.
I think people who also exercise find that the exercise reinforces the healthy eating, and the healthy eating reinforces the exercise. Also, as people get more fit, they are likely to become more active in general, and do longer or more vigorous exercise, or maybe take up more active hobbies because they enjoy the new endurance/mobility/whatever. That makes it easier to maintain the loss.
Also, personally, now that I am more active, I tend to find myself spending a little more time with my more active fit friends and a little less with the friends that I mostly eat or drink with...I haven't ended those friendships, but when I have limited time and must choose I tend to choose the healthier social activity...and spending time with other fit people reinforces my better habits as well.
You don't NEED to exercise to maintain weight loss long term, but I think it makes it much much easier for most people.0 -
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Eight pages about lacking self discipline? Wow.0
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cwolfman13 wrote: »I would also add this...my guess is that those who maintain weight long term are overwhelmingly focused on health overall, not just weight loss or weight control. Exercise may not be necessary for weight control, but really it is necessary for health.
People who are into good livin and being healthy are going to do things commensurate with good livin...i.e. they're going to eat overwhelmingly healthful diet, they are going to exercise regularly, they're going to be generally active when they can be, they're going to get plenty of rest, etc.
As I stated previously, maintaining a healthy weight is really just a bi-product of good livin' in general.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. I think that's the answer, most likely, although who knows, there could be more to it.
It's also similar to stevencloser's point that he made about 10 times before Tim deigned to notice it and the point I was trying to make re motivation that Tim has continued to ignore.
Interestingly, I've read that success in weight loss also tends to be correlated to reasons for motivation. Often, a negative health outcome (bad test results or being informed of a risk factor). That's never been the case for me, but the literature says it's common among those who succeed in weight loss. Obviously, if one is out of shape and quite overweight, the first part of improving health is likely just starting to lose weight, but continuing to care about health (which seems to be an important motivating factor) would include exercise.
(This point was made upthread multiple times by others, but I figured it was worth repeating.)
So again, I see NO contradiction.
Indeed, it also makes sense of the fact that I've always been successful in BOTH weight loss and maintenance when exercising and not when I'm not (I'm sure this would be different if I'd had physical problems that made exercise difficult, in which case it wouldn't be so linked to caring about health). For me exercise is something I always do when I'm motivated to care about my health and I stick to a weight loss plan when I'm motivated to care about my health. Not everyone needs that motivation, but I imagine it's common enough.0 -
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cwolfman13 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »The National Registry of Weight Control reveals that 90% of the people who maintained a loss of 30 pounds or more for at least a year exercise about 1 hour per day. So, exercise is the most important factor when maintaining weight loss, but during the dieting phase, calorie restriction is more important, even to the point that people are often told that exercise isn’t required. Explain this apparent contradiction.
exercise isn't required for either losing weight or maintenance...but exercise makes it about a million times easier to lose weight or maintain weight due to the fact that calorie targets are paltry otherwise. If I didn't exercise, my maintenance is only around 2300 - 2500 calories per day...I'm going to overeat that easily....with exercise, my maintenance is closer to 3000 calories per day...I can maintain quite easily on that without much trouble.
I've maintained my loss of 40 Lbs for over 2 years...I do exercise regularly, but I also exercise a variety of other healthful habits. Being healthy and fit and maintaining a healthy weight is simply a bi-product of living an overwhelmingly healthful lifestyle...which also includes watching my diet.
I like this post.
:drinker:
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@TimothyFish I think the problem here is that you're assuming exercise to be a solely weight-correlated activity. It isn't. There's no contradiction here because exercise, weight loss, and weight maintenance are separate things with separate purposes and functions. You might as well say that wearing clothes is not required for weight loss, yet 100% of people who successfully maintain weight loss wear clothes, and ask us to reconcile that contradiction.
You could do it for anything, really. Having a job is not required for weight loss, yet (I'm making this one up) 80% of people who maintain hold jobs, so reconcile that contradiction. Watching television isn't required for weight loss, yet 65% (made-up again) of people who maintain watch at least four hours of TV per week (also fictitious), so explain that contradiction. Taking showers isn't required for weight loss, yet 95% of people who maintain shower every day, so explain that contradiction. On and on, this could go.
The urge to consider exercise as a specifically weight-linked activity is understandable, because exercise is so helpful in both creating a calorie deficit and improving fitness, but really it's just another activity. Some people will do it, some won't. It turns out that a large proportion of successful mainteners participate in this activity. Great! But that doesn't mean it's a necessarily weight-linked activity -- it's just something these people all do, like brushing their teeth and holding down jobs. It may be helpful to some of them in creating a larger caloric margin of error. It may be helpful to some of them in improving fitness, which in turn reduces cravings/boosts BMR. It may just be fun for some of them. The fact that this population (successful maintainers) engages in one activity (exercise) does not, however, mean that a) the activity is "necessary" for this population to remain static, b) the activity is "necessary" for a different population (those in active weight loss), c) the activity is causative to the population's identity (that of persons in weight maintenance), or d) the activity must be causative to a different population's different identity (that of persons in active weight loss).0 -
I think Tim's argument -- although it could have been stated better -- is that a strong majority of those who successfully maintain do exercise, whereas (he claims) a much smaller percentage of those losing weight at any given time exercise. He's drawing from this that what makes you successful at weight loss is different than what makes you successful at maintenance and -- in particular -- that one is aided by exercise while the other is not.
There are assumptions in this that seem unsupported and probably wrong, however.
First, what percentage of people who lose enough weight to make it to maintenance (remember, the database is ONLY people who lost at least 30 lbs) do not exercise by the end of the weight loss process? Comparing the stats of someone extremely overweight and out of shape with someone at maintenance is not a good comparison. It's extremely common for people to start losing weight and then pick up exercise along the way. I also suspect that most people who try to lose weight think they SHOULD exercise, because they know it's a good thing for health.
Second, that you can lose weight without exercise doesn't mean that losing weight isn't aided by exercise. Of course it is. The fact that many or most people cannot lose weight merely by increasing exercise in the absence of some calorie control is not evidence against this.0 -
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It's probably been said 50 times in this thread but it's funny how the OP just refuses to see what the issue is. It's as if it's deliberate.
90% of people that maintain exercise regularly but 100% of the people that gain the weight back do so because they were in a caloric surplus. Or they simply ate to much. 100 is greater than 90.
I think the OP just wants to continue to beat a dead horse! You are right. As someone who's kept 100 pounds off for several years I know first hand you can make this simple or you can make it hard. I run or cross train most days of the week and I keep my calories within my maintenance range. I don't think you need to exercise to maintain but it does make maintaining easier and it's good for you
Maintenance isn't about being on a diet, it is about making permanent changes regarding how and what you eat. From what I've seen, a lot of people gain the weight back because they think ok I hit my goal and now I can go back to eating whatever I want. I used to consume an entire pumpkin pie with ice cream and I'm pretty sure I would quickly gain all the weight back if I started doing that again 
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