How do you know when it's time for first bulk?
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galgenstrick wrote: »Lifting program is Stronglifts 5x5 for the past 3 months, didn't lift before that
I'm eating ~1800 calories on average every day and losing weight pretty steadily at 1.5lbs / week
Macros are 35% Carbs, 40% protein, 25% fat. I feel pretty good with these numbers, plenty of energy and satiety.
I started at 192 pounds and am down to 162. So about 30 pounds lost
My current plan was to cut down to about 155, then slowly ramp calories to bulk, and start "Bigger, Leaner, Stronger" It seems like a good program which focus on strength with compound lifts as well as aesthetics.
I'm also well aware that the body I want is going to take about 3 years or maybe longer, and I'm not going to look great this summer, but probably next summer
whoops, just saw this response.
that sounds like a legit plan to me....if you are losing 1.5 pounds a week maybe you could bump up to one pound per week loss so that you retain some muscle...?
I think that's a good idea, 1lb/week. I'll also consider the recomp over the summer suggestion. If I did a recomp for say 3 months, would I be able to drop down in BF any significant amount? Or would it not be noticeable?0 -
We can't see the legs and his back which we would need to see in order to get a clearer picture but based on what I do see I would have to say that he's at 16%. No lower than 15% for sure in my opinion.
@MrM27 I was thinking with upper ab definition and side view might put him closer to sub 15%...
but now that I look at it again closer to 15-16% is probably more accurate...
I guess we can split the difference and say 14.5...:)0 -
We can't see the legs and his back which we would need to see in order to get a clearer picture but based on what I do see I would have to say that he's at 16%. No lower than 15% for sure in my opinion.
I can get back and leg pics if you think it would help. But I also feel that you're right about the 16%, that was my gut feeling, although the calipers were telling me otherwise, even if I grabbed as much fat as possible on the skinfold
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@MrM27 & @ndj1979 I'm not trying to hi-jack the post, I would like to know why you're advising he stay at maintenance for that long? His goal is to gain strength and size....just like most of us. This is being asked in wanting to learn your guys' thought process. Thanks.
IMO - OP should stop cutting and reverse to maintenance for the next month and then go right into a bulk until years ends at 0.5lb /week gain. He's got noob gains to be had and strength to add too.......0 -
@MrM27 & @ndj1979 I'm not trying to hi-jack the post, I would like to know why you're advising he stay at maintenance for that long? His goal is to gain strength and size....just like most of us. This is being asked in wanting to learn your guys' thought process. Thanks.
IMO - OP should stop cutting and reverse to maintenance for the next month and then go right into a bulk until years ends at 0.5lb /week gain. He's got noob gains to be had and strength to add too.......
From my understanding you're the most insulin sensitive at lower body fat, and this can get better gains when you start a bulk in the 10-12% range. I'd like to know too though.0 -
galgenstrick wrote: »@MrM27 & @ndj1979 I'm not trying to hi-jack the post, I would like to know why you're advising he stay at maintenance for that long? His goal is to gain strength and size....just like most of us. This is being asked in wanting to learn your guys' thought process. Thanks.
IMO - OP should stop cutting and reverse to maintenance for the next month and then go right into a bulk until years ends at 0.5lb /week gain. He's got noob gains to be had and strength to add too.......
From my understanding you're the most insulin sensitive at lower body fat, and this can get better gains when you start a bulk in the 10-12% range. I'd like to know too though.
And I understand that part.....my understanding is that guideline is for individuals that have been training for a minimum of 6+ months. i.e. have some muscle mass put on. No fault of your own, you do not fall into that catergory. As per the "sticky" post on beginner bulking the body is to "efficient" building muscle even at 20% BF for noobs. You're easily at or below 13-15% BF from what I see and from what I used to look like at your same weight.
The one regret I have is spinning my wheels for a good 1-2 years following a bad program and not eating enough calories! ( Your program is GOOD! don't change it :-) )
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@MrM27 & @ndj1979 I'm not trying to hi-jack the post, I would like to know why you're advising he stay at maintenance for that long? His goal is to gain strength and size....just like most of us. This is being asked in wanting to learn your guys' thought process. Thanks.
IMO - OP should stop cutting and reverse to maintenance for the next month and then go right into a bulk until years ends at 0.5lb /week gain. He's got noob gains to be had and strength to add too.......
main reason was current body fat % and vanity ...if he starts a bulk now then he is going to have fat gain which is going to impact how one looks on the beach or doing outdoor activities.
Additionally, starting a bulk at a higher body fat % will mean that you have more fat gains and more fat to cut off at the end of the bulk cycle. So it is recommended to get below 15% (usually 12%) and then run your bulk ...
since it appears that OP is probably a tad north of 15% body fat, we are suggesting to continue cutting until he drops about another three percent.
I would also add in that he could probably increase calories by 250 and lose a pound per week over next few months so the deficit and muscle loss is not as steep .
hope that helps...
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galgenstrick wrote: »@MrM27 & @ndj1979 I'm not trying to hi-jack the post, I would like to know why you're advising he stay at maintenance for that long? His goal is to gain strength and size....just like most of us. This is being asked in wanting to learn your guys' thought process. Thanks.
IMO - OP should stop cutting and reverse to maintenance for the next month and then go right into a bulk until years ends at 0.5lb /week gain. He's got noob gains to be had and strength to add too.......
From my understanding you're the most insulin sensitive at lower body fat, and this can get better gains when you start a bulk in the 10-12% range. I'd like to know too though.
And I understand that part.....my understanding is that guideline is for individuals that have been training for a minimum of 6+ months. i.e. have some muscle mass put on. No fault of your own, you do not fall into that catergory. As per the "sticky" post on beginner bulking the body is to "efficient" building muscle even at 20% BF for noobs. You're easily at or below 13-15% BF from what I see and from what I used to look like at your same weight.
The one regret I have is spinning my wheels for a good 1-2 years following a bad program and not eating enough calories! ( Your program is GOOD! don't change it :-) )
I don't think OP falls into the newbie category as he has been running starting strength for the past three months..he may have already hit his peak for newbie gains...but I could be wrong there.0 -
galgenstrick wrote: »Squat: 100
Bench: 120
Row: 95
OH press: 60
Deadlift: 175
Based on his lift totals he's a novice and definitely in a newbie catergory. We may have different definitions of "newbie" gains. He's got a lot of strength gains to be had even at maintenance calories.....
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http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10049766/bulking-a-complete-guide-for-beginners/p1
Are You Ready To Bulk?
"Where is this point, where you are lean enough to bulk efficiently? Lyle McDonald pegs it at 15% body fat (for males), you will find this recommendation just about everywhere (it seems that he is the original source for that recommendation). I do think that value is a bit aggressive and that there is some leeway, especially in first timers who tend to bulk very efficiently. The difference between 10-15% and 15-20% body fat is fairly small in bulking efficiency, if there is even a difference at all. (See my article on measuring body fat at home if you are unsure of your body fat percentage).
You really shouldn’t expect notable declines in bulking efficiency until you are 20-25% body fat or even higher, unless you also have a genetic predisposition to insulin resistance.
I was about 20% body fat when I started my first bulk.
(Important note: the body fat levels quoted are for males, females should add about 7% to these numbers for roughly equivalent body fat levels, 10% body fat in a male is similar to about 17% body fat in a female)."
*** Taken straight from MrM27's post in the beginners guide ***
--- As I stated above @galgenstrick , I would pick a body fat % to use as your base and go from there it's all relative. My body fat caliper says I'm 12.5% which I know isn't true but it's a great starting point for me with my bulk. I know I want to bulk until I hit 16-17% BF which will put me around 180-182lbs.
If I read correctly you're at 1800 calories a day? There is no wonder why you've had to deload squats a few times, your body is screaming for more energy...i.e. more calories!
Also, can you clear up the vanity part? My understanding was you want to add muscle for the aesthetic look? Correct?
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For me I think aesthetics helps with the vanity. My main fear is that if I start bulking now I'll hit 20% and look like a meatball and have to do another long cut. I've been cutting for 4 months now and have the momentum and will power to keep it up for another 2 or more, but only if it will pay off in the long run.0
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galgenstrick wrote: »For me I think aesthetics helps with the vanity. My main fear is that if I start bulking now I'll hit 20% and look like a meatball and have to do another long cut. I've been cutting for 4 months now and have the momentum and will power to keep it up for another 2 or more, but only if it will pay off in the long run.
sounds good ..I would consider increasing cals by 250 a week and go for one pound per week loss....that would take you up to 2050 and should help with your lifts...0 -
galgenstrick wrote: »For me I think aesthetics helps with the vanity. My main fear is that if I start bulking now I'll hit 20% and look like a meatball and have to do another long cut. I've been cutting for 4 months now and have the momentum and will power to keep it up for another 2 or more, but only if it will pay off in the long run.
If you bulked at 0.5lb/ week you'd need to get to 183lbs to be at 20% BF. I guess after both of their responses I can definitely see the benefits of doing a recomp until Summer's end.
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galgenstrick wrote: »For me I think aesthetics helps with the vanity. My main fear is that if I start bulking now I'll hit 20% and look like a meatball and have to do another long cut. I've been cutting for 4 months now and have the momentum and will power to keep it up for another 2 or more, but only if it will pay off in the long run.
sounds good ..I would consider increasing cals by 250 a week and go for one pound per week loss....that would take you up to 2050 and should help with your lifts...
Thanks. Yeah, so far this is resonating with me the most. Since no one is recommending I stay at 1.5/week I'll at least increase to 1 pound a week deficit and take it from there. Possibly go to maintainance if I start seeing a good improvement in composition and strength.0 -
galgenstrick wrote: »For me I think aesthetics helps with the vanity. My main fear is that if I start bulking now I'll hit 20% and look like a meatball and have to do another long cut. I've been cutting for 4 months now and have the momentum and will power to keep it up for another 2 or more, but only if it will pay off in the long run.
If you bulked at 0.5lb/ week you'd need to get to 183lbs to be at 20% BF. I guess after both of their responses I can definitely see the benefits of doing a recomp until Summer's end.
I was actually going to also suggest that if he wanted, recomp into bulk.
I typed out my long response over 20 minutes as I did some other stuff here so I didn't see the last 4 or 5 posts on page questions until now
No worries.....it's good to have a product conversation in these forums. As soon as you venture outside of "Gaining Weight" ALL BETS ARE OFF!!!!
OP - did you cut 30 lbs of weight in 16 weeks? Something I had to get out of my head was the added fat gain. Bulking should be a controlled weight increase i.e. 250 - 500 cals/week. When following these proven guidelines it's harder to gain weight than one thinks. It's such a mental game all of it!
I wish I could build up my self confidence to post before/after/current progress photos. Mad props to you for doing so!
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galgenstrick wrote: »For me I think aesthetics helps with the vanity. My main fear is that if I start bulking now I'll hit 20% and look like a meatball and have to do another long cut. I've been cutting for 4 months now and have the momentum and will power to keep it up for another 2 or more, but only if it will pay off in the long run.
If you bulked at 0.5lb/ week you'd need to get to 183lbs to be at 20% BF. I guess after both of their responses I can definitely see the benefits of doing a recomp until Summer's end.
I was actually going to also suggest that if he wanted, recomp into bulk.
I typed out my long response over 20 minutes as I did some other stuff here so I didn't see the last 4 or 5 posts on page questions until now
No worries.....it's good to have a product conversation in these forums. As soon as you venture outside of "Gaining Weight" ALL BETS ARE OFF!!!!
OP - did you cut 30 lbs of weight in 16 weeks? Something I had to get out of my head was the added fat gain. Bulking should be a controlled weight increase i.e. 250 - 500 cals/week. When following these proven guidelines it's harder to gain weight than one thinks. It's such a mental game all of it!
I wish I could build up my self confidence to post before/after/current progress photos. Mad props to you for doing so!
Thanks! Yes, 30 pounds in 16 weeks, I was doing 2/week for a little while at first, then slowed it to 1.5, basically by taking all the good advice the veteran MFP members had to offer.0 -
galgenstrick wrote: »For me I think aesthetics helps with the vanity. My main fear is that if I start bulking now I'll hit 20% and look like a meatball and have to do another long cut. I've been cutting for 4 months now and have the momentum and will power to keep it up for another 2 or more, but only if it will pay off in the long run.
If you bulked at 0.5lb/ week you'd need to get to 183lbs to be at 20% BF. I guess after both of their responses I can definitely see the benefits of doing a recomp until Summer's end.
I was actually going to also suggest that if he wanted, recomp into bulk.
I typed out my long response over 20 minutes as I did some other stuff here so I didn't see the last 4 or 5 posts on page questions until now
No worries.....it's good to have a product conversation in these forums. As soon as you venture outside of "Gaining Weight" ALL BETS ARE OFF!!!!
OP - did you cut 30 lbs of weight in 16 weeks? Something I had to get out of my head was the added fat gain. Bulking should be a controlled weight increase i.e. 250 - 500 cals/week. When following these proven guidelines it's harder to gain weight than one thinks. It's such a mental game all of it!
I wish I could build up my self confidence to post before/after/current progress photos. Mad props to you for doing so!
Honestly, I was hesitant, then I was like "do I want the help or not?" I think it's easier when you look good and have before and after pics to show off. So yea, I see where it's harder to post current pics of yourself that are not even close to your goal body composition...
Anyways, Here's my before pic for kicks. This was a couple weeks in, so about + 25lbs from my current weight.
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