keto low carb refeed question
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I'm probably going to regret not closing this thread down, but this is your reminder to please discuss the topic respectfully, or move on without posting.0 -
Ofc he has no research. He's fell for the bro-science stuff with keto diets. It was evident when I was questioning him on the first page about CICO vs low carb and 'fat adaption'.
the body uses fat not very well in the presense of carbs. Do you know what you are talking about? You can be fat adapted and have minimal carb intake? What happens when the small amount of carbs are used up quickly?IsaackGMOON wrote: »
OP the thing you're forgetting is that the body uses fat and carbohydrates as energy whether you're low carbing or not. It even uses protein in dire situations. But think about this, if it was fat adapted, that means there'd have to be 0 carbohydrates coming in, otherwise it'd try and use those 30g of carbs you get daily on a keto diet?
You literally have no idea what you're talking about.
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I literally can't even[/quote]
Sorry, it was worded badly. What i was trying to portray is that carbs are prioritised as a main source of energy in any diet. So in that way fat burning is limited. Ok?
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AlexEtheridge1996 wrote: »exactly. Who needs to find evidence when only us who have gave keto a fair chance have benefitted massively. I for one could not of achieved what i have on a iifym style diet that allows anything, namely malteizers, orange juice daily, coke, deep pan pizzas etc like this guy arguing with me
The key to a successful IIFYM diet is to, uh, not eat all those things all the time. You will find few, if any, IIFYMers who actually do eat like that all the time. It's hyperbole.0 -
Fat burning is not limited at all if carbohydrates are present in your diet. Calories, its all about the calories. Literally.0
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AlexEtheridge1996 wrote: »
can you please do your own research and decide whether you agree? Continue to drink your coke and have sugary and carby krave for breakfast, but if you think iifym is as good as a clean/balanced diet youre wrong. Also, research about carb blood sugar spike and the effect of insulin (promotes fat storage)
Dude, don't do this. Everyone has a different path to weightloss. And this coming from someone who has been keto-ing for nearly two years now. Just because keto helped me lose weight that wasn't budging on a standard diet, doesn't mean that a standard diet for others won't work for them.
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Unless someone has a medical condition, we do lose weight in the same way. We all can have different ways of getting there, but that's personal preference. There is nothing wrong with asking someone to share where their beliefs came from and the research that they alluded to. The defensiveness when asked is telling. The name calling by the OP is also telling.
And I guess you miss that I am currently doing a low carb diet. I just don't think it's magic. It's just a tool to get to a calorie deficit.
And keto doesn't work for everyone. It's not the way that everyone wants to lose weight rather.
I didn't say there was anything wrong with asking for research, but to blow him off and say, "Oh, it's broscience". I don't agree with the OP's use of words or name-calling but I think he's just frustrated.
And its naive to believe that science is perfect. Scientific research can be flawed for many reasons. It is not the end all be all. Have you given us research to back up the fact that keto doesn't work? And for every study you post, any person who Googles could find another study to prove yours wrong.
It comes down to personal experience and preference. Like the OP, I too feel like complete and utter crap when I overdo sugars and processed foods. Some people do not understand how sugar sets me up for worse cravings and I actually have LESS energy. Low carb dieting helps me stay within my calorie deficit better. It works better for MY body, and no guy in a lab coat performing research experiments can tell me any different. To each his own.0 -
pennystaplessnyder wrote: »
I didn't say there was anything wrong with asking for research, but to blow him off and say, "Oh, it's broscience". I don't agree with the OP's use of words or name-calling but I think he's just frustrated.
And its naive to believe that science is perfect. Scientific research can be flawed for many reasons. It is not the end all be all. Have you given us research to back up the fact that keto doesn't work? And for every study you post, any person who Googles could find another study to prove yours wrong.
It comes down to personal experience and preference. Like the OP, I too feel like complete and utter crap when I overdo sugars and processed foods. Some people do not understand how sugar sets me up for worse cravings and I actually have LESS energy. Low carb dieting helps me stay within my calorie deficit better. It works better for MY body, and no guy in a lab coat performing research experiments can tell me any different. To each his own.
We were given broscience many times.0 -
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Keto and low carb are not necessarily the same thing. Keto is always low carb, but low carb is not always keto. Keto is higher fat and moderate protein. Low carb could mean anything from 20 carbs to 50 or more and higher protein (maybe lower fats, it depends).
And you're absolutely right in that you should not just blindly believe what someone on the Internet says, but on the other hand, you can't just dismiss it as "broscience" automatically either just because someone prefers not to take the time to post research or does not articulate their views in a way you would like.0 -
pennystaplessnyder wrote: »Keto and low carb are not necessarily the same thing. Keto is always low carb, but low carb is not always keto. Keto is higher fat and moderate protein. Low carb could mean anything from 20 carbs to 50 or more and higher protein (maybe lower fats, it depends).
And you're absolutely right in that you should not just blindly believe what someone on the Internet says, but on the other hand, you can't just dismiss it as "broscience" automatically either just because someone prefers not to take the time to post research or does not articulate their views in a way you would like.
correct, i have been specifically talking about keto, not low carb because one can be on 'low" carbs yet not be in ketosis or fat adapted.
At first i was trying inform the individual from what i know or have experienced from keto, but constantly getting questioned or asked where my information is from wasjust annoying. Expecially when i said i do not think im right, i have just read, researched and told others to do the same before calling me out This diet has worked much better than other diets in terms of fat loss, and i have accounted this to keto, not a change in calories in or out
just my experience after all
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IsaackGMOON wrote: »
We were given broscience many times.
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i said do your own research so i didnt get called out like i have. I havent claimed what i have said is correct, just for you to research yourself and conclude what you would like.IsaackGMOON wrote: »
We were given broscience many times.
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IsaackGMOON wrote: »Fat burning is not limited at all if carbohydrates are present in your diet. Calories, its all about the calories. Literally.
if thats what you believe fron your own research then thats okay? I really don't care what you personally believe
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I would argue that there is no such thing as adapting to using fat as an energy source. Your body uses whatever energy you provide it for fuel, and then goes into catabolism only if there is a caloric deficit, unless you don't agree with CICO theory.
There are 3 benefits to a refeed or overfeed: psychological break from sustained deficit, leptin increase, and glycogen refill.
The leptin increase and glycogen refill can only come from overfeeding carbs.
The latter points answer my question about this thread i was wondering whether overfeeding calories would compensate for not carbing up
Regarding your opinion on the fat adaption, i found a few links that may or may not change your opinion. Not saying the link is reliable either, its where i got the idea from and it wasnt just my 'bro science'
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/what-does-it-mean-to-be-fat-adapted/#axzz3d90wCUFh
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IsaackGMOON wrote: »Fat burning is not limited at all if carbohydrates are present in your diet. Calories, its all about the calories. Literally.
fat-burning beast can effectively burn stored fat for energy throughout the day. If you can handle missing meals and are able to go hours without getting ravenous and cranky (or craving carbs), you’re likely fat-adapted.
A fat-burning beast is able to effectively oxidize dietary fat for energy. If you’re adapted, your post-prandial fat oxidation will be increased, and less dietary fat will be stored in adipose tissue.
A fat-burning beast has plenty of accessible energy on hand, even if he or she is lean. If you’re adapted, the genes associated with lipid metabolism will be upregulated in your skeletal muscles. You will essentially reprogram your body.
A fat-burning beast can rely more on fat for energy during exercise, sparing glycogen for when he or she really needs it. As I’ve discussed before, being able to mobilize and oxidize stored fat during exercise can reduce an athlete’s reliance on glycogen.
Read more: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/what-does-it-mean-to-be-fat-adapted/#ixzz3dEQWtOyV0 -
Sorry but a few of people were having a go, with 'bro science' etc and questioning what i was proposing (even when i said i didnt say any of it was of scientific truth). Most of what i wrote has came from information from sites and researching several different sites that i cannot remember the original destination. Thus letting people research and read up on topics themselves will enable them to come to a judgement regarding validity of discussions.Since it seems important, I am in a diet that allows me to remain in ketosis. However, my opinion on low carb or keto isn't more or less valid as a result. Nor did I ever say keto didn't work. I said some of the claims made in this thread about a low carb or keto diet are absolutely suspect.
However, I encourage each person to find their own diet that gets them to a deficit the easiest and do that. If it is keto, great. If it is IIFYM, also great. Different strokes.
That's all for me in this thread since I am turned off by people's inability to have a discussion or a discord of beliefs when it turns to immature name calling and defensiveness. Take care, enjoy your journey.0 -
I would argue that there is no such thing as adapting to using fat as an energy source.
I would disagree, if you want your brain and other tissues to be largely fuelled by ketones in the absence of dietary carbohydrates it's cool to give them time to adapt to this and upregulate the relevant enzymes and processes.
If your RQ drops to 0.73 from 0.85 at rest you've adapted somehow.
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I am sure you won't answer, but I'd love to see the research/science on that.
I just read an article that said the opposite. It wasn't research or science. It was on a body building site, but made an opposite statement.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1373635/
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AlexEtheridge1996 wrote: »
The latter points answer my question about this thread i was wondering whether overfeeding calories would compensate for not carbing up
Not sure exactly what you mean by compensating for not carbing up? Nutritionally? No.
In terms of rate of fat loss, no, I am not aware of any evidence that would support this idea. In terms of satiety and psychological break from caloric deficit, then sure, a day or two at caloric maintenance or even slight surplus will make you feel better and give you some extra energy without derailing your fat loss progress. If you are in keto and on a calorie deficit, a day or two of more calories but no extra carbs will not make your muscles feel and look fuller like a carb refeed will, nor will it provide any long term increase to your metabolism or improve your hormone profile.AlexEtheridge1996 wrote: »Regarding your opinion on the fat adaption, i found a few links that may or may not change your opinion. Not saying the link is reliable either, its where i got the idea from and it wasnt just my 'bro science'
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/what-does-it-mean-to-be-fat-adapted/#axzz3d90wCUFh
I actually have read that before. There is some evidence that the body in keto can utilize body fat more efficiently, however, that does not translate to better performance or faster body fat loss. Here is a low n study, but there are many others:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1748-1716.2009.01996.x/full
Paleo and Atkins and just about anything with the term "diet" in the title are all marketing concepts. They have a good "hook" that sounds plausible and they make incredible claims about the diet. None of this stuff is new, it is just repackaged from time to time. Bodybuilder Vince Gironda was promoting the steak and eggs diet back in the 40s, and the history of low-carb goes back way earlier than that. By all means, if you enjoy eating that way, and make good sustainable progress on it, or have a medical reason to do it, then go for it. I enjoyed a couple of things about being in keto, but there was a lot of things I didn't enjoy. Some exhaustive meta-analysis studies show that overweight people are able to accomplish better short term adherence (<1 year) to low-carb compared to other diets, but long-term they are all about the same. Long-term, low-carb health markers are also about the same to a balanced diet.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0100652
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=sv&tl=en&prev=_dd&u=http://www.sbu.se/sv/Publicerat/Gul/Mat-vid-fetma-/0 -
I would disagree, if you want your brain and other tissues to be largely fuelled by ketones in the absence of dietary carbohydrates it's cool to give them time to adapt to this and upregulate the relevant enzymes and processes.
If your RQ drops to 0.73 from 0.85 at rest you've adapted somehow.
Agree with this. My earlier statement is poorly worded. I would argue that although ketosis adaptation is real (I had the temporary low-carb flu to support this idea), it does not improve athletic performance or help to increase rate of body fat loss, as some people claim it does.0
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