Bound to be controversial
Replies
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Something I have noticed as I've gotten older is life catches up to you. Things you could get away with when you were younger seem to come back and haunt you as you get older. Eating crap, being stressed out, being obese, staying up until dawn and going to work the next day is something you can get away with in your 20's. It gets a little harder in your 30's. By the time you hit 40 you're starting to feel it. Just like a car. It's great when it's new but when it hits that 10 yr mark you're gonna be able to tell if a car has had proper maintenance over the years. Human bodies need maintenance. Being overweight puts strain on joints and tendons. Puts strain on the heart and lungs. Not a big deal when you're young but increasingly becomes a problem the older you get.
Yes it's good to love yourself at any weight. But you also need to respect your body. Treat it right and don't assume the health you enjoy when you're 20 will continue into your 40's or 50's.0 -
barbecuesauce wrote: »Nearly every HAES proponent I've seen has been in their 20s. If you're in your 20s and have lousy blood test results, that's probably more the work of your lousy genes than your weight. Where are the 57-year-old HAES advocates?
But the doctor card thing HAES bloggers advocate kills me:
because there are times when the patient NEEDS to lose weight and when medical intervention would be completely inappropriate without weight loss. A person in their twenties can blow out their knees with excess weight. Should they be given new knees, which can last for up to 20 years (but might fail in 3-5, a major risk factor for early failure being excess weight)? What kind of doctor would operate on such a person?
I understand the reason for HAES concept, but the movement can cause a person put on blinders to what's around them. No matter how body confident/comfortable I am at my size, I can't lie to myself and think I am perfectly healthy.
At the same time there are many reasons to look at weight for reasons to diagnose health problems but there are some doctors that get fixated that a person's weight is the cause for all their problems. Sometimes other medical conditions get missed because the whole picture not all possibilities were looked at.
Well, that's definitely wrong, and I don't support that at all. But if a patient has a health issue that would be alleviated by losing weight and the doctor did not mention it, they would not be doing their job. When I hurt my sciatic nerve, my doctor told me to lose weight--and she was right, it almost never troubles me and doesn't put me out of commission for days on end anymore.0 -
TavistockToad wrote: »So... Healthy at every size
I keep hearing and seeing people talk about being healthy while being fat, overweight or obese.
I can inderstand being healthy while a bit fat but it seems fat and health have a negative correlation.
So am I wrong in thinking that you can't be healthy while very over weight? It just seems logical to me that more fat equal less healthy.
But healthy at every size people seem to be common. Maybe my thinking is outdated.
So healthy at any size... Yay or nay?
nay. you can be healthy and still be overweight, but there comes a time when, as you say, fat and health have a negative correlation. exactly where that line is though, I'm not qualified to say!
And it is very individual and kind of a fluid line. I consider myself healthy now, but I still need to lose more weight to look my best and feel best about myself overall. I consider myself healthy because I have no weight related physical issues and I am fit enough to do whatever I want physically. I can hike for hours. I can swim 1.25 miles and still have energy to do more. I play games and watersports, and whatever else I feel like with no difficulties.
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BMI isnt the indicator as everyone who is a body builder would have an unacceptable BMI. I think there are always going to be obese people that have healthy blood pressure and seem to be fitter than the healthy weight person who is a couch potato and may have high bp . hereditary conditions can play a part . I think a person can be 10 pounds overweight and be healthier than the thin couch potato but any more overweight than that the health risks come to play.
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To answer the question, I think of myself when I was overweight and obese. My blood work always came back fine, but I was not fine carrying all that weight around.
I ached all over, I was more prone to injury and injuries took longer to heal, I had a harder time breathing, and any exercise I wanted to do (specifically running, since that is my passion) was highly compromised. To me, no matter what the blood tests said, I was not healthy being overweight or obese.
Now that I'm within a healthy weight range--I don't ache, hardly any injuries anymore, I can BREATHE, and I can run like a champion! To me, that is health.
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You CANNOT be fat and healthy. Every organ is working overtime to maintain homeostasis in the body. Just because you can maintain that for a while doesn't mean it's good. The body will manifest all of it's hard work sooner or later. It's a nice form of denial to suggest that you can be healthy and fat but the reality is not so.0
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Ohhhh 1) i dont try to act , i actually went to med school , did my 5 years and graduate so yes that actually qualifys me to write that sort of opinion cause i have the same degree than the "smarts people"
I'm not buying it.barbecuesauce wrote: »
Physicians serve the role of health advocates. In Canada the accreditation body for specialty medical training is the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons and their model of residency training is summarized in the CanMEDS roles, one of which is "Health Advocate." As an advocate for health you are responsible for advising your patients to quit doing harmful things - wear their seatbelt when driving, wear a helmet while cycling, stop smoking or drinking to excess and, yes, lose some weight if obese.
It is actually my JOB as a physician to encourage obese people to lose weight. Studies on smoking cessation prove beyond a doubt that a physician advising someone to quit smoking increases their likelihood of actually doing it. I've no reason to think that obesity is any different.
what is it that your are not buying it? That i went to med school, and that my daily job is well work as a physician? Ok im cool with that
About the other thing, Again i never said a physician should not advise, be concerned abouth their patients weight, encourage them to achieve their very best health, oh no you're wrong i fully agree with that, where i was going is how unfairly i've seing SOME overweight patients being take care of, and physicians gets so fixated in their weight issue that they miss other health issues, yes is my job to tell you to loose weight but yes is actually my.job to respect your decision and treat your illness if u decide to loose the weight or not.0 -
Whilst you can be "healthy" whilst obese the statistical likelihood is greater that you won't be in comparison to being normal weight.
I think HAES movement really should be more about AAES - acceptance at any size.
But, that's not what this conversation is really about. I accept all of my friends who are overweight or obese, and they accepted me when I was overweight, and they accept me now that I'm not. We have lot of things in common, love to talk and play together, and we have respect for each other as human beings. Our friendships are based on mutual trust and truth, not on body image.
However, I am not going to just randomly accept that obesity is okay because it carries with it many risks. Anorexia is not okay either due to the health risks. both of these conditions can be life threatening and everybody knows this.
Health risks is the operative phrase when it comes to conversations about being overweight, obese or underweight.0 -
barbecuesauce wrote: »barbecuesauce wrote: »Nearly every HAES proponent I've seen has been in their 20s. If you're in your 20s and have lousy blood test results, that's probably more the work of your lousy genes than your weight. Where are the 57-year-old HAES advocates?
But the doctor card thing HAES bloggers advocate kills me:
because there are times when the patient NEEDS to lose weight and when medical intervention would be completely inappropriate without weight loss. A person in their twenties can blow out their knees with excess weight. Should they be given new knees, which can last for up to 20 years (but might fail in 3-5, a major risk factor for early failure being excess weight)? What kind of doctor would operate on such a person?
I understand the reason for HAES concept, but the movement can cause a person put on blinders to what's around them. No matter how body confident/comfortable I am at my size, I can't lie to myself and think I am perfectly healthy.
At the same time there are many reasons to look at weight for reasons to diagnose health problems but there are some doctors that get fixated that a person's weight is the cause for all their problems. Sometimes other medical conditions get missed because the whole picture not all possibilities were looked at.
Well, that's definitely wrong, and I don't support that at all. But if a patient has a health issue that would be alleviated by losing weight and the doctor did not mention it, they would not be doing their job. When I hurt my sciatic nerve, my doctor told me to lose weight--and she was right, it almost never troubles me and doesn't put me out of commission for days on end anymore.
and my sciatica had nothing to do with my weight. I had displaced my left iliac but the doctor was fixated on my weight. When she finally figured out what the real issue was, it was almost too late to correct with PT.
That is @Dariasen 's point. Some doctors overlook other possibilities because they only look at weight. They need to look at the whole picture. I agree that the Doctor needs to mention losing weight if it might alleviate a condition, but some of them use it as a scapegoat for everything that is wrong with the patient and they are not doing their job to fixate on that when there are other possibilities.
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Honestly, you can be a size 0 and be healthy, or you can be at a size 8-10 or more and be healthy. But if you have high blood pressure, high cholesterol, and/or your doctor tells you your weight isn't healthy, then you are not healthy. I'm all for loving your curves or your stretch marks, but it makes me cringe when I see women say "love your fat rolls!" And just knowing they are not healthy. I can't support that.0
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[/quote]I understand the reason for HAES concept, but the movement can cause a person put on blinders to what's around them. No matter how body confident/comfortable I am at my size, I can't lie to myself and think I am perfectly healthy.
At the same time there are many reasons to look at weight for reasons to diagnose health problems but there are some doctors that get fixated that a person's weight is the cause for all their problems. Sometimes other medical conditions get missed because the whole picture not all possibilities were looked at.
[/quote]
Well, that's definitely wrong, and I don't support that at all. But if a patient has a health issue that would be alleviated by losing weight and the doctor did not mention it, they would not be doing their job. When I hurt my sciatic nerve, my doctor told me to lose weight--and she was right, it almost never troubles me and doesn't put me out of commission for days on end anymore. [/quote]
I'm not saying a doctor shouldn't suggest weight loss but not every illness should be automatically blamed on weight, which is which some -not all- doctors have been known to do.
I slipped on ice and hurt my knee, my knee did not get injured because I am overweight, but it would have been wrong for my doctor to not point out that my weight could cause a delay in recovery.
This happens with other primary diagnosis too. My son has ASD. There are many things I can say ASD is the primary cause of but sometimes something else is out of sorts. We've had experiences where I have taken him to a doctor because he's acting off...I know something is wrong. I had one doctor tell me it's just the autism and ended it at that. Yet when I went for a second opinion, it turned out a simple blood test showed he was anemic. Got him on an iron supplement for a couple of weeks his levels were back to normal and so was he.
Because that 1st doctor decided autism was to blame for any behavioral changes, his treatment was delayed because no other possiliities were even considered by him.
**sorry my quote codes got all messed up:)**0 -
To be fair, HAES is "Health At Every Size" not "Healthy." The more moderate and reasonable HAES people I have seen here realize they may not be "healthy" but they want to focus on health generally and not just focus on weight. Of course the logical result would be weight loss.
That "card" though is horrible.0 -
barbecuesauce wrote: »barbecuesauce wrote: »Nearly every HAES proponent I've seen has been in their 20s. If you're in your 20s and have lousy blood test results, that's probably more the work of your lousy genes than your weight. Where are the 57-year-old HAES advocates?
But the doctor card thing HAES bloggers advocate kills me:
because there are times when the patient NEEDS to lose weight and when medical intervention would be completely inappropriate without weight loss. A person in their twenties can blow out their knees with excess weight. Should they be given new knees, which can last for up to 20 years (but might fail in 3-5, a major risk factor for early failure being excess weight)? What kind of doctor would operate on such a person?
I understand the reason for HAES concept, but the movement can cause a person put on blinders to what's around them. No matter how body confident/comfortable I am at my size, I can't lie to myself and think I am perfectly healthy.
At the same time there are many reasons to look at weight for reasons to diagnose health problems but there are some doctors that get fixated that a person's weight is the cause for all their problems. Sometimes other medical conditions get missed because the whole picture not all possibilities were looked at.
Well, that's definitely wrong, and I don't support that at all. But if a patient has a health issue that would be alleviated by losing weight and the doctor did not mention it, they would not be doing their job. When I hurt my sciatic nerve, my doctor told me to lose weight--and she was right, it almost never troubles me and doesn't put me out of commission for days on end anymore.
and my sciatica had nothing to do with my weight. I had displaced my left iliac but the doctor was fixated on my weight. When she finally figured out what the real issue was, it was almost too late to correct with PT.
That is @Dariasen 's point. Some doctors overlook other possibilities because they only look at weight. They need to look at the whole picture. I agree that the Doctor needs to mention losing weight if it might alleviate a condition, but some of them use it as a scapegoat for everything that is wrong with the patient and they are not doing their job to fixate on that when there are other possibilities.
Unfortunately, sciatic nerve pain is correlated to obesity in a dose-dependent fashion. Losing weight is a treatment for sciatica.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/245696410 -
My doctor told me about one of is other patients. This person was obese and had a poor diet. Yet when he sent them for a heart scan and looked at their cholesterol, the arteries were 100% clear of calcium and their cholesterol numbers were perfect.0
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barbecuesauce wrote: »barbecuesauce wrote: »Nearly every HAES proponent I've seen has been in their 20s. If you're in your 20s and have lousy blood test results, that's probably more the work of your lousy genes than your weight. Where are the 57-year-old HAES advocates?
But the doctor card thing HAES bloggers advocate kills me:
because there are times when the patient NEEDS to lose weight and when medical intervention would be completely inappropriate without weight loss. A person in their twenties can blow out their knees with excess weight. Should they be given new knees, which can last for up to 20 years (but might fail in 3-5, a major risk factor for early failure being excess weight)? What kind of doctor would operate on such a person?
I understand the reason for HAES concept, but the movement can cause a person put on blinders to what's around them. No matter how body confident/comfortable I am at my size, I can't lie to myself and think I am perfectly healthy.
At the same time there are many reasons to look at weight for reasons to diagnose health problems but there are some doctors that get fixated that a person's weight is the cause for all their problems. Sometimes other medical conditions get missed because the whole picture not all possibilities were looked at.
Well, that's definitely wrong, and I don't support that at all. But if a patient has a health issue that would be alleviated by losing weight and the doctor did not mention it, they would not be doing their job. When I hurt my sciatic nerve, my doctor told me to lose weight--and she was right, it almost never troubles me and doesn't put me out of commission for days on end anymore.
and my sciatica had nothing to do with my weight. I had displaced my left iliac but the doctor was fixated on my weight. When she finally figured out what the real issue was, it was almost too late to correct with PT.
That is @Dariasen 's point. Some doctors overlook other possibilities because they only look at weight. They need to look at the whole picture. I agree that the Doctor needs to mention losing weight if it might alleviate a condition, but some of them use it as a scapegoat for everything that is wrong with the patient and they are not doing their job to fixate on that when there are other possibilities.
Unfortunately for you, sciatic nerve pain is correlated to obesity in a dose-dependent fashion. Losing weight is a treatment for sciatica.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24569641
I'm aware of that. You missed my point. When you tell a doctor that you have a pain in the left side of your lower back that radiated down the leg and started when you fell on a rock while hiking the Himalayas, and she diagnoses sciatica and tells you to lose weight instead of looking at possible musculoskeletal injuries, that is fixating on weight as a cause of all problems.
ETA: correlation is not causation. Doctors need to look at causes, not just possible correlations.
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And not everyone who smokes gets cancer or gets mesothelioma from working with asbestos. Those cases aren't really the point.My doctor told me about one of is other patients. This person was obese and had a poor diet. Yet when he sent them for a heart scan and looked at their cholesterol, the arteries were 100% clear of calcium and their cholesterol numbers were perfect.
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I agree with those who say age is a HUGE factor. An obese, active person who is 25 is going to be healthier than an obese, active 45 year old almost every time. Young people, (I would define as about age 30 or younger) haven't had enough time being fat for their health problems (caused by what they eat) to catch up to them yet. It most likely will.
It's like smoking. The smoker who has been doing it for 10 years probably doesn't have obvious health problems from that activity YET, but the 50 year smoker is the one who is more likely to have issues from their addiction.
I think some overweight poeple can be healthy, mostly those who are working on reducing their weight. If you eat like a thin person, your blood and body will reflect it before you get thin. If an overweight (or thin person) is eating like a fat pesron, their blood won't stay healthy for many years.
I do agree that exercise at any weight will make you healthier. Note that I said healthier and not healthy. My 72 year old mother goes to the gym 3 days a week. I am sure she has better muscle tone than many 60 year olds, but she is 100lbs overweight - there is only so much going to the gym will do for her. It helps, but it isn't enough.0 -
Here's a graph that might help.
I have lost a significant amount of weight and have seen major benefits to my health as a result. I've added ten years to my lifespan. I do not have high blood pressure, high blood sugar, or high cholesterol. The greatest benefit I enjoy is my increased mobility.
The health benefits I most enjoy are the increased activity, especially running. I have much greater cardiovascular capacity today. I run up the stairs and I'm not out of breath. When observing the health at any size movement, I think we all benefit from greater activity, even if we don't see the pounds go right away.
That being said, I'm still in the obese category.
Am I unhealthy?0 -
I am not a doctor but I can tell you that I have been overweight and healthy most of my life. By overweight, I mean by about 30 pounds. However, I continued to gain weight and even though I was still exercising I began to have health problems - prediabetes, elevated blood pressure, asthma, joint pain...
I am now overweight and unhealthy. So, just based on my own experience, you CAN be overweight and healthy, but only up to a certain point. If your weight continues to go up, eventually you will develop health problems. That's why it's so important to reign it in before it gets out of control. I so wish I had gotten serious about weight loss when I only had 30 lbs to lose.
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At the pool yesterday I observed an obese woman swimming with her child, who had sores all over her legs indicative of uncontrolled blood sugar. Would losing weight significantly improve her chances at controlling her sugars? Absolutely. But the condition is diabetes.0
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I think you could be overweigh & healthy, but it's definitely not going to last forever that way. Being overweight definitely puts you at risk for a myriad of health problems and the longer you are overweight, the more likely you are to develop said problems. I was overweight & healthy as hell for a long time & then suddenly I wasn't. I developed high blood pressure and sleep apnea & now I'm trying to undo the damage caused by being overweight for so long. I don't know if I ever can. That being said, I know several people who are at an ideal BMI who are incredibly unhealthy. They have high blood pressure, high cholesterol, diabetes, etc. Being thin doesn't necessarily mean that you're healthy either.0
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A few months ago I hurt my back unrelated to being overweight. When I saw the back specialist he talked about proper lifting and the importance of daily stretching and he also talked about losing weight. Did he need to bring it up? Yes I think he did. Even though I hurt my back in an accident carrying around an extra 125 pounds is not going to help during my recovery. Doctors shouldn't be afraid to point out the obvious.0
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A few months ago I hurt my back unrelated to being overweight. When I saw the back specialist he talked about proper lifting and the importance of daily stretching and he also talked about losing weight. Did he need to bring it up? Yes I think he did. Even though I hurt my back in an accident carrying around an extra 125 pounds is not going to help during my recovery. Doctors shouldn't be afraid to point out the obvious.
Exactly. As long as they don't stop at the obvious.
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That card is terrible. When I was 21, I got the contraceptive pill. At the time, I was obese with an BMI of about 40. My doctor (who had never seen me before that) I guess acted commendable by HAES standards as she didn't mention my weight at all, and failed to inform me that not only did it increase the risk of several side effects of hormonal contraceptives but it also reduced their safety.
To get back on topic: No, I don't think you can be as healthy as you can be if you're obese (or severely underweight—as someone else pointed out that gets left out at lot by HAES advocates).0 -
barbecuesauce wrote: »barbecuesauce wrote: »Nearly every HAES proponent I've seen has been in their 20s. If you're in your 20s and have lousy blood test results, that's probably more the work of your lousy genes than your weight. Where are the 57-year-old HAES advocates?
But the doctor card thing HAES bloggers advocate kills me:
because there are times when the patient NEEDS to lose weight and when medical intervention would be completely inappropriate without weight loss. A person in their twenties can blow out their knees with excess weight. Should they be given new knees, which can last for up to 20 years (but might fail in 3-5, a major risk factor for early failure being excess weight)? What kind of doctor would operate on such a person?
I understand the reason for HAES concept, but the movement can cause a person put on blinders to what's around them. No matter how body confident/comfortable I am at my size, I can't lie to myself and think I am perfectly healthy.
At the same time there are many reasons to look at weight for reasons to diagnose health problems but there are some doctors that get fixated that a person's weight is the cause for all their problems. Sometimes other medical conditions get missed because the whole picture not all possibilities were looked at.
Well, that's definitely wrong, and I don't support that at all. But if a patient has a health issue that would be alleviated by losing weight and the doctor did not mention it, they would not be doing their job. When I hurt my sciatic nerve, my doctor told me to lose weight--and she was right, it almost never troubles me and doesn't put me out of commission for days on end anymore.
and my sciatica had nothing to do with my weight. I had displaced my left iliac but the doctor was fixated on my weight. When she finally figured out what the real issue was, it was almost too late to correct with PT.
That is @Dariasen 's point. Some doctors overlook other possibilities because they only look at weight. They need to look at the whole picture. I agree that the Doctor needs to mention losing weight if it might alleviate a condition, but some of them use it as a scapegoat for everything that is wrong with the patient and they are not doing their job to fixate on that when there are other possibilities.
Unfortunately for you, sciatic nerve pain is correlated to obesity in a dose-dependent fashion. Losing weight is a treatment for sciatica.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24569641
I'm aware of that. You missed my point. When you tell a doctor that you have a pain in the left side of your lower back that radiated down the leg and started when you fell on a rock while hiking the Himalayas, and she diagnoses sciatica and tells you to lose weight instead of looking at possible musculoskeletal injuries, that is fixating on weight as a cause of all problems.
ETA: correlation is not causation. Doctors need to look at causes, not just possible correlations.
I agree that your doctor was wrong to focus on your weight so narrowly (in the post you originally quoted, I acknowledged as much, but also said that doctors should bring up weight if it alleviates medical conditions). You should have sought a referral to physical therapy--although I did the same and the physical therapist brought up my weight as well.
I'm not in the medical field, but it seems sensible that if there is something that a patient can do to alleviate symptoms on their own, a good medical professional needs to suggest that.
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I think people sometimes equate "healthy" with "optimally healthy." I've lost 50+lbs. Currently, for my height and weight I'm just shy of being obese, with a BF% of around ~24%. But I doubt most people on the street would single me out as being obese. Maybe they would. *shrug*
I'm reasonably healthy. My blood work is fine, apart from my A1C being slightly low (I didn't know that was a thing). My doctor doesn't really have any complaints on my behalf. I could be healthier, but I'm not that concerned with it.
That said, my family history of diabetes along with staggering joint and circulation problems, means that as I age my weight will matter more and more.
So I'm more or less healthy now even though I'm basically obese.0 -
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Ohhhh 1) i dont try to act , i actually went to med school , did my 5 years and graduate so yes that actually qualifys me to write that sort of opinion cause i have the same degree than the "smarts people"
I'm not buying it.barbecuesauce wrote: »
Physicians serve the role of health advocates. In Canada the accreditation body for specialty medical training is the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons and their model of residency training is summarized in the CanMEDS roles, one of which is "Health Advocate." As an advocate for health you are responsible for advising your patients to quit doing harmful things - wear their seatbelt when driving, wear a helmet while cycling, stop smoking or drinking to excess and, yes, lose some weight if obese.
It is actually my JOB as a physician to encourage obese people to lose weight. Studies on smoking cessation prove beyond a doubt that a physician advising someone to quit smoking increases their likelihood of actually doing it. I've no reason to think that obesity is any different.
what is it that your are not buying it? That i went to med school, and that my daily job is well work as a physician? Ok im cool with that
About the other thing, Again i never said a physician should not advise, be concerned abouth their patients weight, encourage them to achieve their very best health, oh no you're wrong i fully agree with that, where i was going is how unfairly i've seing SOME overweight patients being take care of, and physicians gets so fixated in their weight issue that they miss other health issues, yes is my job to tell you to loose weight but yes is actually my.job to respect your decision and treat your illness if u decide to loose the weight or not.
I don't buy it either...being from Canada and having family who are doctors...
[Edited by MFP Staff]0 -
So am I wrong in thinking that you can't be healthy while very over weight? It just seems logical to me that more fat equal less healthy.
Depends on what you mean by healthy.
Are some very fat people (many, even) healthy as in they have no adverse health effects from the fat? Sure. I never had any bad test results from being very fat, and could run up and down the 4 flights to my condo without trouble and do everything I needed to do physically (although increasingly as I gained I had started feeling some physical effects, like if I stood a lot or walked a lot my feet would be sore, I probably would have easily injured myself if I'd started running hard again), and I had the hated chafing when I walked unless wearing pants or tights.
However, IMO the absence of specific health effects in an individual are not sufficient to say it can be healthy, as the question should include risks also. Was I at much higher risk of developing health issues of all sorts as I got older? Certainly, yes.
As others have said, people can be lucky and smoke and drink heavily for years and live to 98. We probably all know someone like that. It doesn't make that a healthy way to live your life or a smart thing to do--if you have no ability to predict if you will be lucky or not, why not minimize risks you can control?0 -
On the other hand, I strongly favor encouraging people who are frustrated or think they can't lose weight or who have been stuck in a yoyo or binging type of cycle to focus on the things they can do to improve health even without losing weight, like eating a better diet overall and exercising.
But I also suspect strongly that if they do they'll end up losing weight. For some people, though, the lack of focus on the scale may help them do that and not feel crazy about it.
A book I like that ultimately takes this perspective (not HAES) is Losing It, by Laura Fraser.0
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