Does post workout Soreness mean you had a Killer Workout?
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workout_freak89 wrote: »workout_freak89 wrote: »workout_freak89 wrote: »workout_freak89 wrote: »I was merely being polite in the above post...While I do not claim to know everything, i do know almost everything there is to know which will directly or indirectly affect my results in a major fashion.I don't bother much about the minor details that have little or no signifance as far as performance or results of my training and nutrition are concerned.
Also, the reason why people seem to get offended by my "tone" is because my confidence sometimes gets mistaken as arrogance...however almost every fact that i quote is reference based and backed up by research.For the things that I do not quote , it is mostly out of laziness of lack of time
"I know what i know...If i do not know it's because there is no need to know"
But dude...you've posted a lot of what was, in my opinion, rubbish too sad phrased it as though it's gospel and everyone should listen to you.
So you don't really know "almost everything" for everyone, just what has worked / not harmed you (n=1)
I have yet to see you back up any of your assertions with any valid sources ...you should do that ...it gives you some credibility at least
please be a little specific...tell me about what according to you was incorrect ...part of the post / the whole post/ the tone of the post or everything in general?
more convenient if you would actually quote the lines (unless the post has been already taken down lol)
Well on the one yesterday
The thing you said about pre-workout nutrition being crucial amongst others
I can't remember the other parts I felt were personal choice I'm afraid
read this
http://www.jissn.com/content/10/1/53
OK ...that meta-analyses actually refutes your claim that the timing or protein consumption has any importance
Yet you are quoting it as corroboration for your assertion
I'm joining Isaac in a small LOL there
are you sure you read the whole thing??
"In fact, the reduced model revealed that total protein intake was by far the most important predictor of hypertrophy ES, with a ~0.2 increase in ES noted for every 0.5 g/kg increase in protein ingestion.
"we must acknowledge the possibility that protein timing was in fact responsible for producing a positive effect and that the associated increase in protein intake is merely coincidental"
Well it's possible I misread but you appear to be selectively taking phrases out of context ...these jumped out at me
Despite the apparent biological plausibility of the strategy, the effectiveness of protein timing in chronic training studies has been decidedly mixed. While some studies have shown that consumption of protein in the peri-workout period promotes increases in muscle strength and/or hypertrophy [16-19], others have not [20-22]. In a review of literature, Aragon and Schoenfeld [23] concluded that there is a lack of evidence to support a narrow “anabolic window of opportunity” whereby protein need to be consumed in immediate proximity to the exercise bout to maximize muscular adaptations. However, these conclusions were at least in part a reflection of methodological issues in the current research. One issue in particular is that studies to date have employed small sample sizes. Thus, it is possible that null findings may be attributable to these studies being underpowered, resulting in a type II error. In addition, various confounders including the amount of EAA supplementation, matching of protein intake, training status, and variations in age and gender between studies make it difficult to draw definitive conclusions on the topic. Thus, by increasing statistical power and controlling for confounding variables, a meta-analysis may help to provide clarity as to whether protein timing confers potential benefits in post-exercise skeletal muscle adaptations.
A simple pooled analysis of protein timing without controlling for covariates showed a significant effect on muscle hypertrophy (ES = 0.24 ± 0.10) with no significant effect found on muscle strength. It is generally accepted that an effect size of 0.2 is small, 0.5 is moderate, and 0.8 and above is a large, indicating that the effect of protein timing on gains in lean body mass were small to moderate. However, an expanded regression analysis found that any positive effects associated with protein timing on muscle protein accretion disappeared after controlling for covariates.
In conclusion, current evidence does not appear to support the claim that immediate (≤ 1 hour) consumption of protein pre- and/or post-workout significantly enhances strength- or hypertrophic-related adaptations to resistance exercise. The results of this meta-analysis indicate that if a peri-workout anabolic window of opportunity does in fact exist, the window for protein consumption would appear to be greater than one-hour before and after a resistance training session. Any positive effects noted in timing studies were found to be due to an increased protein intake rather than the temporal aspects of consumption, but a lack of matched studies makes it difficult to draw firm conclusions in this regard. The fact that protein consumption in non-supplemented subjects was below generally recommended intake for those involved in resistance training lends credence to this finding. Since causality cannot be directly drawn from our analysis, however, we must acknowledge the possibility that protein timing was in fact responsible for producing a positive effect and that the associated increase in protein intake is merely coincidental. Future research should seek to control for protein intake so that the true value regarding nutrient timing can be properly evaluated. Particular focus should be placed on carrying out these studies with well-trained subjects to better determine whether resistance training experience plays a role in the response.0 -
workout_freak89 wrote: »here's the problem with steady state though
lower calorie consumption per unit basis c.f. HIIT ...the exact difference depends on the type of exercise and the intensity of hiit
It doesn't matter, because you'll do a crap ton more "units" with steady state, because HIIT can only be done sporadically while steady state can be done for literally hours at a time. The overall burn from steady-state will always be higher, for someone looking to maximize burns. It's basic math.increased body efficiency for SSC over time which translates to reduced energy expenditure and less fat burned per session[/b]
Higher burn from longer exercise time + nearly completely aerobic exercise (low/mid intensity steady state) will burn more fat *for someone who has that as their number one goal* than anything this side of liposuction.
Again, basic math.
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workout_freak89 wrote: »we must acknowledge the possibility that protein timing was in fact responsible for producing a positive effect and that the associated increase in protein intake is merely coincidental
That means they DID NOT find a relationship.
It also means that if someone want to "time", there doesn't appear to be any reason not to.0 -
Bro...do you even science ?0
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workout_freak89 wrote: »MrPicklesworth wrote: »workout_freak89 wrote: »MrPicklesworth wrote: »workout_freak89 wrote: »DOMS or delayed onset muscle soreness is the pain or soreness experienced typically several hours after workout
is DOMS related to how productive your workout was???
NO it' not
yet why do many people mistake the degree of post workout soreness to the efficacy of their workout??
Most common reason is instant feedback and lack of knowledge... in fact just think about it.. It even seems logical...harder the exercise more is the soreness..On top of this the bro science "i killed my legs yesterday bro! I can't even get up from my bed.... gonna get those killer quads by tomorrow!! " .another addition to the long list of fitness and health myths
unfortunately this is completely wrong and baseless as far as success of the workout depends...workouts can still be effective even if you’re not sore, because exercise is still effective after you stop getting sore from it...just because one is not experiencing the same level of post exercise soreness as when he first started out doesn't mean it's efficacy has reduced. It means that the body has adapted to the level of intensity
what about the muscle micro tear and micro trauma??
Muscle biopsy and electron microscopy shows that the reason for pain is connective tissue damage and inflammation in the area around the muscle tendon attachment where most of the sensory nerve fibers innervate. While it’s true that the method which stimulates the synthesis of new myofibrils ( components of muscle cell) owes its basis to the micro tears introduced in muscle fibers, however this process is NOT always accompanied by pain and soreness
classic case where the effect is mistaken for cause
if muscle soreness is not the indicator of success then what is??
Performance aka progressive overload
if you are lifting more weight than the previous workout then your last session was a hit. Congratulations!
Have a powerful day!!
Your explanation does not answer your question entirely. Basically all you told us was that you don't have to feel sore afterwards to have had a great workout. You didn't disprove your question of, "Does post workout Soreness mean you had a Killer Workout?" So I can still believe that being really sore after a workout means I got a killer workout, but I may still get a killer workout even if I don't feel sore afterwards.
I answered it with a NO in the first line
lifting light weights for high reps may cause soreness but no gains
Oh but it will cause 'gains' of some sort. Proper nutrition/calorie surplus is the most important part of gaining muscle mass. At the very least it will cause 'gains' in muscle endurance. I've been going to a body pump class (light weights with lots of reps) for some time now and have worked my way up in the weights I use for the class. One time this muscle bound guy from the weight room showed up to join a class. Clearly this guy had put in a lot of time lifting heavy and could definitely out lift me in the weight room. Despite the instructors cautioning him to go a little bit lighter with his weights since it was his first class he was determined to mimic the same weights I was using since I was the only other guy in class. Of course as the class went on he failed horribly and was usually dropping his bar and taking multiple breaks before we were even half way through the 5 minute tracks for each exercise. I couldn't help but chuckle within myself watching him. He hasn't returned since. So I feel like there are definitely 'gains' to be had from lighter lifting, and I still feel like soreness after your workout generally indicates that you had a great workout. I do agree with you that you don't have to be sore to have had a great workout though, as your body will adapt.
i agree there are definite gains from high rep range(12-15), but mainly for endurance not size and strength.Having said that it doesn't mean size and strength won't improve , but high rep is not the ideal way to go about it.
no difference btwn high rep and low rep for size, just have to get near failure. (for strength, yes, better to go with lower reps)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3404827/
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I'm out by the way0
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workout_freak89 wrote: »workout_freak89 wrote: »MrPicklesworth wrote: »workout_freak89 wrote: »MrPicklesworth wrote: »workout_freak89 wrote: »DOMS or delayed onset muscle soreness is the pain or soreness experienced typically several hours after workout
is DOMS related to how productive your workout was???
NO it' not
yet why do many people mistake the degree of post workout soreness to the efficacy of their workout??
Most common reason is instant feedback and lack of knowledge... in fact just think about it.. It even seems logical...harder the exercise more is the soreness..On top of this the bro science "i killed my legs yesterday bro! I can't even get up from my bed.... gonna get those killer quads by tomorrow!! " .another addition to the long list of fitness and health myths
unfortunately this is completely wrong and baseless as far as success of the workout depends...workouts can still be effective even if you’re not sore, because exercise is still effective after you stop getting sore from it...just because one is not experiencing the same level of post exercise soreness as when he first started out doesn't mean it's efficacy has reduced. It means that the body has adapted to the level of intensity
what about the muscle micro tear and micro trauma??
Muscle biopsy and electron microscopy shows that the reason for pain is connective tissue damage and inflammation in the area around the muscle tendon attachment where most of the sensory nerve fibers innervate. While it’s true that the method which stimulates the synthesis of new myofibrils ( components of muscle cell) owes its basis to the micro tears introduced in muscle fibers, however this process is NOT always accompanied by pain and soreness
classic case where the effect is mistaken for cause
if muscle soreness is not the indicator of success then what is??
Performance aka progressive overload
if you are lifting more weight than the previous workout then your last session was a hit. Congratulations!
Have a powerful day!!
Your explanation does not answer your question entirely. Basically all you told us was that you don't have to feel sore afterwards to have had a great workout. You didn't disprove your question of, "Does post workout Soreness mean you had a Killer Workout?" So I can still believe that being really sore after a workout means I got a killer workout, but I may still get a killer workout even if I don't feel sore afterwards.
I answered it with a NO in the first line
lifting light weights for high reps may cause soreness but no gains
Oh but it will cause 'gains' of some sort. Proper nutrition/calorie surplus is the most important part of gaining muscle mass. At the very least it will cause 'gains' in muscle endurance. I've been going to a body pump class (light weights with lots of reps) for some time now and have worked my way up in the weights I use for the class. One time this muscle bound guy from the weight room showed up to join a class. Clearly this guy had put in a lot of time lifting heavy and could definitely out lift me in the weight room. Despite the instructors cautioning him to go a little bit lighter with his weights since it was his first class he was determined to mimic the same weights I was using since I was the only other guy in class. Of course as the class went on he failed horribly and was usually dropping his bar and taking multiple breaks before we were even half way through the 5 minute tracks for each exercise. I couldn't help but chuckle within myself watching him. He hasn't returned since. So I feel like there are definitely 'gains' to be had from lighter lifting, and I still feel like soreness after your workout generally indicates that you had a great workout. I do agree with you that you don't have to be sore to have had a great workout though, as your body will adapt.
i agree there are definite gains from high rep range(12-15), but mainly for endurance not size and strength.Having said that it doesn't mean size and strength won't improve , but high rep is not the ideal way to go about it.
no difference btwn high rep and low rep for size, just have to get near failure. (for strength, yes, better to go with lower reps)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3404827/
thanks for the link..is a good study
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00421-002-0681-6
this one disagrees
np, i like this one too
I'm wondering how comparable they are, though; looks like were differences in volume - the high-rep group in the study you linked to did two sets of 20-28 RM ( bit lower than 30% RM) with one minute rest, while in the one i found, it was "three sets performed to the point of fatigue with 30% of 1RM (30%-3)."0 -
I feel a bit of added muscle volume the day after a good one. Large muscle groups that are sore hold water and usually gain 3 pounds after leg day that is carried for two days
Debilitating soreness, no... A good little reminder of some muscle growth, yes0 -
workout_freak89 wrote: »workout_freak89 wrote: »workout_freak89 wrote: »MrPicklesworth wrote: »workout_freak89 wrote: »MrPicklesworth wrote: »workout_freak89 wrote: »DOMS or delayed onset muscle soreness is the pain or soreness experienced typically several hours after workout
is DOMS related to how productive your workout was???
NO it' not
yet why do many people mistake the degree of post workout soreness to the efficacy of their workout??
Most common reason is instant feedback and lack of knowledge... in fact just think about it.. It even seems logical...harder the exercise more is the soreness..On top of this the bro science "i killed my legs yesterday bro! I can't even get up from my bed.... gonna get those killer quads by tomorrow!! " .another addition to the long list of fitness and health myths
unfortunately this is completely wrong and baseless as far as success of the workout depends...workouts can still be effective even if you’re not sore, because exercise is still effective after you stop getting sore from it...just because one is not experiencing the same level of post exercise soreness as when he first started out doesn't mean it's efficacy has reduced. It means that the body has adapted to the level of intensity
what about the muscle micro tear and micro trauma??
Muscle biopsy and electron microscopy shows that the reason for pain is connective tissue damage and inflammation in the area around the muscle tendon attachment where most of the sensory nerve fibers innervate. While it’s true that the method which stimulates the synthesis of new myofibrils ( components of muscle cell) owes its basis to the micro tears introduced in muscle fibers, however this process is NOT always accompanied by pain and soreness
classic case where the effect is mistaken for cause
if muscle soreness is not the indicator of success then what is??
Performance aka progressive overload
if you are lifting more weight than the previous workout then your last session was a hit. Congratulations!
Have a powerful day!!
Your explanation does not answer your question entirely. Basically all you told us was that you don't have to feel sore afterwards to have had a great workout. You didn't disprove your question of, "Does post workout Soreness mean you had a Killer Workout?" So I can still believe that being really sore after a workout means I got a killer workout, but I may still get a killer workout even if I don't feel sore afterwards.
I answered it with a NO in the first line
lifting light weights for high reps may cause soreness but no gains
Oh but it will cause 'gains' of some sort. Proper nutrition/calorie surplus is the most important part of gaining muscle mass. At the very least it will cause 'gains' in muscle endurance. I've been going to a body pump class (light weights with lots of reps) for some time now and have worked my way up in the weights I use for the class. One time this muscle bound guy from the weight room showed up to join a class. Clearly this guy had put in a lot of time lifting heavy and could definitely out lift me in the weight room. Despite the instructors cautioning him to go a little bit lighter with his weights since it was his first class he was determined to mimic the same weights I was using since I was the only other guy in class. Of course as the class went on he failed horribly and was usually dropping his bar and taking multiple breaks before we were even half way through the 5 minute tracks for each exercise. I couldn't help but chuckle within myself watching him. He hasn't returned since. So I feel like there are definitely 'gains' to be had from lighter lifting, and I still feel like soreness after your workout generally indicates that you had a great workout. I do agree with you that you don't have to be sore to have had a great workout though, as your body will adapt.
i agree there are definite gains from high rep range(12-15), but mainly for endurance not size and strength.Having said that it doesn't mean size and strength won't improve , but high rep is not the ideal way to go about it.
no difference btwn high rep and low rep for size, just have to get near failure. (for strength, yes, better to go with lower reps)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3404827/
thanks for the link..is a good study
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00421-002-0681-6
this one disagrees
np, i like this one too
I'm wondering how comparable they are, though; looks like were differences in volume - the high-rep group in the study you linked to did two sets of 20-28 RM ( bit lower than 30% RM) with one minute rest, while in the one i found, it was "three sets performed to the point of fatigue with 30% of 1RM (30%-3)."
yes..the one you quoted had 80%RM - 3reps vs 30% RM
no hypertrophy difference. only strength difference
i think these studies mainly compare between 5 rep "powerlifting " vs 15 rep "endurance" stereotype lifting.
i wonder if there's a study that compares the 8-10 rep range vs 12-15 range
or can we conclude that if size gains for 80% RM vs 30% RM for 3 reps is comparable, then it can be extended and generalized for 8 reps vs 15??hard to say me thinks
I don't know! The thing I'm taking from it is that getting near/to failure might be the key thing for size, but it would be neat to see the comparisons you describe.workout_freak89 wrote: »workout_freak89 wrote: »workout_freak89 wrote: »MrPicklesworth wrote: »workout_freak89 wrote: »MrPicklesworth wrote: »workout_freak89 wrote: »DOMS or delayed onset muscle soreness is the pain or soreness experienced typically several hours after workout
is DOMS related to how productive your workout was???
NO it' not
yet why do many people mistake the degree of post workout soreness to the efficacy of their workout??
Most common reason is instant feedback and lack of knowledge... in fact just think about it.. It even seems logical...harder the exercise more is the soreness..On top of this the bro science "i killed my legs yesterday bro! I can't even get up from my bed.... gonna get those killer quads by tomorrow!! " .another addition to the long list of fitness and health myths
unfortunately this is completely wrong and baseless as far as success of the workout depends...workouts can still be effective even if you’re not sore, because exercise is still effective after you stop getting sore from it...just because one is not experiencing the same level of post exercise soreness as when he first started out doesn't mean it's efficacy has reduced. It means that the body has adapted to the level of intensity
what about the muscle micro tear and micro trauma??
Muscle biopsy and electron microscopy shows that the reason for pain is connective tissue damage and inflammation in the area around the muscle tendon attachment where most of the sensory nerve fibers innervate. While it’s true that the method which stimulates the synthesis of new myofibrils ( components of muscle cell) owes its basis to the micro tears introduced in muscle fibers, however this process is NOT always accompanied by pain and soreness
classic case where the effect is mistaken for cause
if muscle soreness is not the indicator of success then what is??
Performance aka progressive overload
if you are lifting more weight than the previous workout then your last session was a hit. Congratulations!
Have a powerful day!!
Your explanation does not answer your question entirely. Basically all you told us was that you don't have to feel sore afterwards to have had a great workout. You didn't disprove your question of, "Does post workout Soreness mean you had a Killer Workout?" So I can still believe that being really sore after a workout means I got a killer workout, but I may still get a killer workout even if I don't feel sore afterwards.
I answered it with a NO in the first line
lifting light weights for high reps may cause soreness but no gains
Oh but it will cause 'gains' of some sort. Proper nutrition/calorie surplus is the most important part of gaining muscle mass. At the very least it will cause 'gains' in muscle endurance. I've been going to a body pump class (light weights with lots of reps) for some time now and have worked my way up in the weights I use for the class. One time this muscle bound guy from the weight room showed up to join a class. Clearly this guy had put in a lot of time lifting heavy and could definitely out lift me in the weight room. Despite the instructors cautioning him to go a little bit lighter with his weights since it was his first class he was determined to mimic the same weights I was using since I was the only other guy in class. Of course as the class went on he failed horribly and was usually dropping his bar and taking multiple breaks before we were even half way through the 5 minute tracks for each exercise. I couldn't help but chuckle within myself watching him. He hasn't returned since. So I feel like there are definitely 'gains' to be had from lighter lifting, and I still feel like soreness after your workout generally indicates that you had a great workout. I do agree with you that you don't have to be sore to have had a great workout though, as your body will adapt.
i agree there are definite gains from high rep range(12-15), but mainly for endurance not size and strength.Having said that it doesn't mean size and strength won't improve , but high rep is not the ideal way to go about it.
no difference btwn high rep and low rep for size, just have to get near failure. (for strength, yes, better to go with lower reps)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3404827/
thanks for the link..is a good study
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00421-002-0681-6
this one disagrees
np, i like this one too
I'm wondering how comparable they are, though; looks like were differences in volume - the high-rep group in the study you linked to did two sets of 20-28 RM ( bit lower than 30% RM) with one minute rest, while in the one i found, it was "three sets performed to the point of fatigue with 30% of 1RM (30%-3)."
i was searching around..found this
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24714538
3 sets of 10RM vs 7 sets 3RM
same conclusion
but study seems flawed idk..
1.load lifted is same
2.volume is didfferent
3.subjects well trained
4.how the hell are well trained subjects lifting such a 100% RM? with a 10 rep set lol??
hmm that's worded confusingly
I think they're saying they lifted their 10-rep max?
(i'm always happy to see research supporting higher reps for size, because that's all I can do at the moment
, and that's mostly what I want 
- so thank you ) 0 -
Let's make this easy for everyone to understand instead of going through textbook terminology and jargon that no one really cares about. Glycogen stores would have to be depleted. A rarity for the average person or gym rat even in 2 hours of exercise. Elite athlete, another story.workout_freak89 wrote: »
Incorrect. Fat burning happens most with a calorie deficit and at rest (since it's the primary source of energy). Any physical activity will first use glycogen before even touching any fat stores. One doesn't need to do any cardio at all, and can do it by weight lifting alone if calorie deficit is good enough.workout_freak89 wrote: »add cardio and interval training alternately to them keeping atleast one day ( sunday ) for rest
reason- fat burning occurs more by cardio and interval training than weight lifting
Cardio is for cardio vascular health and helps to burn more calories to either create a higher calorie deficit, or give some room to eat more calories if a calorie deficit it high enough.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
rate of calorie consumption depends on heart rate which depends on level of intensity of the physical activity...
In general , interval training > cardio (steady state) > weight training
this is considering that the fact that the workouts done have been for the same duration
again the above is not always true because- weight training can be done as a form of metabolic training with very low rest times...In such a case it will obviously burn more calories than cardio
- the same activity can be performed as steady state cardio or as interval training...consider walk vs jogging vs sprinting vs marathon run
"Fat burning happens most with a calorie deficit and at rest (since it's the primary source of energy). Any physical activity will first use glycogen before even touching any fat stores"
no one is refuting the fact that aerobic oxidation doesn't last long for providing the necessary amount of energy to sustain the activity in question... and anerobic oxidation forms Lactate...here's the rest of the story though--- the Lactate goes through Cori's cycle in the liver where it forms Pyruvate and shuttles back to muscle.
After the activity has finished the pyruvate goes to the KREB'S CYCLE aka CITRIC ACID cycle and gives NET 36 ATP's from NADH via OXIDATIVE PHOSPHORYLATION
where does fat come in the picture???
The HORMONE SENSITIVE LIPASE splits the fat molecule to 2 things-- glycerol molecule--- which either forms pyruvate which will release ATP's ultimately
- fatty acid--- which enters BETA OXIDATION and releases further more ATP's.
This is how 1g of fat releases 9 calories (approx)..when you add in all the ATP's from all the metabolic cycles
now with basic biochemistry out of the way let's address your question
The muscle glycogen exists for the sole purpose of ready-to-use-energy...In a calorie excess the extra calories from any source- fat, carb, prt) will either- provide energy to synthesize new muscle , or
- get deposited as fat
now what makes (1) to be preferentially happening over (2) is A MUSCLE STIMULUS aka WEIGHT TRAINING
conversely , in a deficit, the energy from fat will be used to replenish the muscle glycogen stores
so again...where am i wrong???
Cardio, weight training, plyometrics all burn calories. If one is in a calorie deficit, regardless if they exercise or not, fat loss will happen and dependent on whether or not there's enough muscle stimulation, some degree of lean tissue.
Unless there's alcohol in the system, fat is the primary source of energy at rest. We rest more than we workout so it's important that rest is part of any fat loss or weight loss regimen.
Eat some carbs, glycogen (which can be consumed in deficit) gets restored bypassing the use for fat to do the same.
I'll address the DOMS too. DOMS doesn't need to be consistent after workouts. However, getting DOMS from a workout not regularly done by a person who is consistent with regular exercise, CAN be a killer workout. For example, someone squats 2 times a week doing a 5x5 method. Then they do a workout of 3x25 reps. In major DOMS the next 2 days. That for that person was a "killer" workout. So it's subjective point of view depending on who you're hearing it from.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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