Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.
Food Addiction - A Different Perspective
Options
Replies
-
amusedmonkey wrote: »kommodevaran wrote: »kommodevaran wrote: »I
The withdrawal symptoms are not the same as for alcohol and drugs. But there are none for nicotine, either. I quit smoking nine years ago, and quitting smoking was way easier than quitting candy, chips, cookies. I don't get jittery thinking about cigarettes. But I do when I think about candy, chips, cookies.
This was your personal experience, and I'd say this makes you an outlier. Most people who quit nicotine do experience withdrawal symptoms. Depending on the level of use, there can be headaches, nausea, dizziness, perspiration, loss of appetite, shaking, brain fog and a myriad of other potential symptoms. Quitting smoking was easier for you than it was for others, but that doesn't mean that nicotine is easy to quit for everyone. For most people, it's extraordinarily difficult, and the relapse rate is very high.
When it comes to food, it can't really be compared. People can't be asked to quit eating. Food is necessary to life. It may be possible to ask them to stop eating certain types of food, but it's actually much healthier to help people develop a healthy relationship with food so that avoidance isn't necessary in the first place.
And as far as hyperpalatable vs. whole foods? I know people who are obese and eat steak and potatoes to stay that way. They aren't sweets eaters or store bought food eaters at all. They're farmers. They claim they can't help eating mass quantities of steak. Is that an addiction? I'd argue no, in the same way I'd argue that a person isn't addiction to a cupcake or Doritos. It's never the food.
Maybe I am a special snowflake
I react atypically to a lot of stuff. Sugar never gives me that high/energy boost that I read about. It tastes good, but I get tired immidiately, it often makes me (want to) lie down, and sleep. I don't feel relaxed and sociable from alcohol, it doesn't even make it easier to sleep, I just get dizzy and feel heavy, my memory fails and my mind slows down. I don't like it, it makes me feel more insecure around others. The only "normal" reaction I've had with alcohol, was with way too much once or twice when I was young, when I blacked out, did things I didn't want to, and passed out. Coffee has no effect on me either. I will get a high from pethidine, though, and I am energized and giggly when I wake from general anesthesia. I consumed around 20 cigarettes a day, for 10-12 years. I have to accept thet quitting can be painful for others, but for me it was just a bad habit.
You are an outlier if you had no nicotine withdrawal symptoms, I am too - but in the opposite direction. Most nicotine physical withdrawal symptoms are tolerable, but I almost needed to be hospitalized when I attempted to quit smoking cold turkey. I'm currently on the patch and it's a breeze in comparison. I guess the jump from 2+ packs a day to 0 is just too steep to be done in one step.
Speaking of smoking. The closest I may meet in the middle in terms of classifying food as an addiction is the cravings you get for a cigarettes at certain times, like after a meal or with coffee..etc. Although caused by quitting smoking, I don't consider them a direct result of this addiction, but a bunch of habitual associations a person has made throughout their smoking years. So in that sense, food "addiction" can have similar representations to real addictions, but that doesn't make it one. Regarding it as such leads to creating a disease model rather than a responsibility model.
I actually found the habitual associations with smoking harder to get past than the nicotine bit, because the nicotine cleared my system and was done and over with after a certain time. The habit/behavioral entrenchment was SO ingrained, that it took much, much longer to get past.
I actually think this is a very useful parallel to my initial post, because it does speak to the nature of how pervasive and problematic something can be (thus validating it) while still showing it's not an addiction.
I was NOT addicted to having something in my hands or doing a certain particular thing at a certain time, but they were behaviors I had developed. I had become conditioned to the responses of pleasure associated with those behaviors, thus reinforcing them. You put that whole package together, and you've got a bad habit, not necessarily an addiction.
0 -
vivmom2014 wrote: »What about helping/advising people? Positive self talk was mentioned, and I think it's really undervalued. (If you can get Stuart Smalley out of your head, ha.)
One of my purposes in starting this thread was to empower people. I think that how you view yourself is powerful. If you believe you can get control over your food, you'll get there, even if you're going to fake your way to doing it.
I tend to think that rushing to label food as having undue influence on your willingness to "cave" and over-consume it or mindlessly consume it puts you in the role of a victim, and that it's counterproductive to weight loss success.
Empowerment is being in charge of your choices. Are you an addict, or just a person with a bad habit who is going to do something about it?
Some outliers will truly have a real issue and need professional help, but for the most part, I firmly believe that most people have it within themselves to overcome their issues with problematic food behavior if they believe their commitment to improving is more important than the food.
0 -
My interpretation of some of the results is that trying to do the typical addiction treatment of total, lifelong withdrawal of substance might be the worst thing someone can do with a food they think is addictive. The dopamine lighting up that people call drug like tends to be highest for novel stimulus, so denying yourself for extended times is liable to make food cravings worse, not better.vivmom2014 wrote: »What about helping/advising people? Positive self talk was mentioned, and I think it's really undervalued. (If you can get Stuart Smalley out of your head, ha.)
Similarly, avoid any turning food into a reward kind of experience. Decoupling the two makes food only desirable as food, not as a way of capturing certain feelings.
I agree with this. There's all sorts of information about willpower being limited, and I understand how cutting it out entirely seems like an "easy" solution to not have to waste willpower required for moderation (just the willpower to not buy something). But, while abstinence is 100% effective in theory, it's usually a bad long term solution (true for birth control as well). It seems to me, that when you abstain from something but then are exposed later, it's much harder to avoid it in that situation, so you breakdown and have it, but not in moderation at all.
Um, I feel like I'm not explaining that well. For example, people will often say, I don't need cake; I will just not eat cake, make it, or have it in the house. It is then often pointed out and asked if that person will avoid all future celebrations that may serve cake (weddings, birthdays, etc), and honestly I can't remember the typical answer when people do answer. But, because you do only have so much willpower, it's harder to avoid in those cases. Willpower can be hard, but flexing it, using it, and creating habits seems to be more useful. When it's a habit to only take and eat a single portion, it's much easier to regulate the amount you eat when exposed to it in the future.
This was me, but it wasn't only about willpower. It was also tied to how I felt I should deal with this foods. They weren't something I was "allowed" to be eating because I was already fat. Those darned tapes of my mother's voice and all that noise about making food have gold stars and red x's over it in my head.
Once I got over all that, willpower wasn't hard for me, I found it was all tied together. Yes, I like sweets, but without the shame of... Carol shouldn't be eating this because Carol is fat... Carol was able to eat a regular portion. Because Carol was allowing herself to have more the next day, and the day after that and so on.
I wasn't on a cycle of restrict... EAT ALL THE COOKIES BECAUSE YOU'RE NEVER EATING THEM AGAIN OMG!!!!!!... restrict, you fat so-and-so... EAT ALL THE CHEESE!!!!... lather, rinse, repeat.
0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »vivmom2014 wrote: »What about helping/advising people? Positive self talk was mentioned, and I think it's really undervalued. (If you can get Stuart Smalley out of your head, ha.)
Some outliers will truly have a real issue and need professional help, but for the most part, I firmly believe that most people have it within themselves to overcome their issues with problematic food behavior if they believe their commitment to improving is more important than the food.
This is really key: if they believe their commitment to improving is more important than the food.
Commitment to improving = having some semblance of self-acceptance and self-love. Getting there is so difficult when people don't have a very high opinion of themselves.
0 -
vivmom2014 wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »vivmom2014 wrote: »What about helping/advising people? Positive self talk was mentioned, and I think it's really undervalued. (If you can get Stuart Smalley out of your head, ha.)
Some outliers will truly have a real issue and need professional help, but for the most part, I firmly believe that most people have it within themselves to overcome their issues with problematic food behavior if they believe their commitment to improving is more important than the food.
This is really key: if they believe their commitment to improving is more important than the food.
Commitment to improving = having some semblance of self-acceptance and self-love. Getting there is so difficult when people don't have a very high opinion of themselves.
I don't know that you necessarily need a high opinion of yourself. I don't have one, but it's gotten better through this process. What I had was motivation, and it gave me the commitment to improve. I did value myself enough to not want to feel as awful as I felt, so I guess there is that.
There is something to be said, though, for challenging your assumptions. For every person out there who thinks that they have issues and that the food is the problem, I can guarantee them that working through the issues to a point of reconciling them will be a very rewarding and empowering experience.
I was formerly a person who swore up down left and right she had physical reactions and everything to sugar. Yeah, um, and they were awful too.
Yeah, no. I have no physical problems eating sugar. I hope to have some cookies tonight.
0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »
I did value myself enough to not want to feel as awful as I felt, so I guess there is that.
[/quote]/snip
Bingo. Exactly. (Forget "high opinion" and sub "healthy self worth")
0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »vivmom2014 wrote: »What about helping/advising people? Positive self talk was mentioned, and I think it's really undervalued. (If you can get Stuart Smalley out of your head, ha.)
One of my purposes in starting this thread was to empower people. I think that how you view yourself is powerful. If you believe you can get control over your food, you'll get there, even if you're going to fake your way to doing it.
I tend to think that rushing to label food as having undue influence on your willingness to "cave" and over-consume it or mindlessly consume it puts you in the role of a victim, and that it's counterproductive to weight loss success.
Empowerment is being in charge of your choices. Are you an addict, or just a person with a bad habit who is going to do something about it?
Some outliers will truly have a real issue and need professional help, but for the most part, I firmly believe that most people have it within themselves to overcome their issues with problematic food behavior if they believe their commitment to improving is more important than the food.
The bolded is also true for people addicted to heroin, nicotine, and alcohol - the majority of addicts quit on their own.
But yes, feeling powerless is...disempowering. Being invalidated can also be disempowering. I prefer to not invalidate someone's experience because I don't think that's helpful.0 -
vivmom2014 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »vivmom2014 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »vivmom2014 wrote: »What about helping/advising people? Positive self talk was mentioned, and I think it's really undervalued. (If you can get Stuart Smalley out of your head, ha.)
I think the reverse of this is the key--not beating yourself up, not seeing your food decisions as about who you are as a person, but simply about meeting a goal and being more or less on track (without demanding any kind of perfection and while including in there that pleasure is a totally valid consideration).
Too often it's a spiral that people think if they engage in the behavior (overeating or, unfortunately, eating certain foods) they are losers or failures or bad or naughty (ugh) or even disgusting, and that causes shame which they fill by eating more (since they already blew it or suck anyway, etc.).
This is also why I get really uncomfortable with approaches to food where people try to convince themselves that the food is bad or disgusting, as then if they eat it they will be. But of course that only changes whether they desire it in the short-term and just plays into the horrible feelings about themselves. (I also think this echoes some really distorted ideas about sexuality people can learn, and how they then get to be self-hating and ashamed of their own natural desires.)
That's also why I think taking the focus away from the problem being with the person (an addict) and their weakness and more on a problem that needs to be solved--here is a habit I must break, this is how it will be temporarily tough, here are strategies to try--are better than telling yourself you lack the power to manage around certain foods or that there's something wrong or flawed in you.
For the record, I said POSITIVE self talk.
I know--my point was that rather than positive self talk, it might be the absence of negative self talk. Instead of adding the one (although I'm all for that too), subtracting the other as something very helpful to do.
Ah, okay.
I have seen great strides in a loved one who suffers from a profound guilt problem to say, immediately upon having negative thoughts, "I reject that thought." Is that positive self talk or the absence of negative? Hmmm. Whatever it is, it has really empowered this person to make some healthy mental shifts. Which is the end goal.I'd call that the absence of negative, and I really like that.
Me too!
Has your loved one seen Louise Hay's DVD "You can heal your life"?0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »vivmom2014 wrote: »What about helping/advising people? Positive self talk was mentioned, and I think it's really undervalued. (If you can get Stuart Smalley out of your head, ha.)
One of my purposes in starting this thread was to empower people. I think that how you view yourself is powerful. If you believe you can get control over your food, you'll get there, even if you're going to fake your way to doing it.
I tend to think that rushing to label food as having undue influence on your willingness to "cave" and over-consume it or mindlessly consume it puts you in the role of a victim, and that it's counterproductive to weight loss success.
Empowerment is being in charge of your choices. Are you an addict, or just a person with a bad habit who is going to do something about it?
Some outliers will truly have a real issue and need professional help, but for the most part, I firmly believe that most people have it within themselves to overcome their issues with problematic food behavior if they believe their commitment to improving is more important than the food.
The bolded is also true for people addicted to heroin, nicotine, and alcohol - the majority of addicts quit on their own.
But yes, feeling powerless is...disempowering. Being invalidated can also be disempowering. I prefer to not invalidate someone's experience because I don't think that's helpful.
It's not invalidating someone's experience to help them realize that they aren't addicted to food. It's validating to acknowledge that you are aware they have a problem and need help, and that you are willing to help them. Just because someone has labeled their problem of overeating with the wrong label - addiction - doesn't mean you just allow that label to stick and address the problem from that angle, because that's not helpful. Assisting the person in finding the reason for overeating is helpful.
And no, most people addicted to heroin, nicotine and alcohol do not quit on their own.0 -
Do you think it's helpful to validate an experience that all evidence shows couldn't be true? What's generally helpful, in my experience, is for people to be grounded in reality.kshama2001 wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »vivmom2014 wrote: »What about helping/advising people? Positive self talk was mentioned, and I think it's really undervalued. (If you can get Stuart Smalley out of your head, ha.)
One of my purposes in starting this thread was to empower people. I think that how you view yourself is powerful. If you believe you can get control over your food, you'll get there, even if you're going to fake your way to doing it.
I tend to think that rushing to label food as having undue influence on your willingness to "cave" and over-consume it or mindlessly consume it puts you in the role of a victim, and that it's counterproductive to weight loss success.
Empowerment is being in charge of your choices. Are you an addict, or just a person with a bad habit who is going to do something about it?
Some outliers will truly have a real issue and need professional help, but for the most part, I firmly believe that most people have it within themselves to overcome their issues with problematic food behavior if they believe their commitment to improving is more important than the food.
The bolded is also true for people addicted to heroin, nicotine, and alcohol - the majority of addicts quit on their own.
But yes, feeling powerless is...disempowering. Being invalidated can also be disempowering. I prefer to not invalidate someone's experience because I don't think that's helpful.0 -
@PeachyCarol Another shining example of excellence in posting - well-reasoned, emphatic, and logical.
Bravo Zulu!
0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »
But yes, feeling powerless is...disempowering. Being invalidated can also be disempowering. I prefer to not invalidate someone's experience because I don't think that's helpful.
Why is it invalidating to tell someone the truth?
Maybe the delivery can be too harsh, I grant you that. But really, tell someone the truth.
0 -
Are you making the claim that telling someone they don't have an addiction when what they have is not an addiction is invalidating and disempowering? Validation is for feelings, not facts. People who come on MFP saying "I'm addicted to blank" get a lot more resistance than people that say "I feel like I'm addicted to blank".kshama2001 wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »vivmom2014 wrote: »What about helping/advising people? Positive self talk was mentioned, and I think it's really undervalued. (If you can get Stuart Smalley out of your head, ha.)
One of my purposes in starting this thread was to empower people. I think that how you view yourself is powerful. If you believe you can get control over your food, you'll get there, even if you're going to fake your way to doing it.
I tend to think that rushing to label food as having undue influence on your willingness to "cave" and over-consume it or mindlessly consume it puts you in the role of a victim, and that it's counterproductive to weight loss success.
Empowerment is being in charge of your choices. Are you an addict, or just a person with a bad habit who is going to do something about it?
Some outliers will truly have a real issue and need professional help, but for the most part, I firmly believe that most people have it within themselves to overcome their issues with problematic food behavior if they believe their commitment to improving is more important than the food.
The bolded is also true for people addicted to heroin, nicotine, and alcohol - the majority of addicts quit on their own.
But yes, feeling powerless is...disempowering. Being invalidated can also be disempowering. I prefer to not invalidate someone's experience because I don't think that's helpful.
I think fueling a delusion is disempowering, but then again, I hold rational and empirical processes as the only shambling way humanity has moved forward.0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »vivmom2014 wrote: »What about helping/advising people? Positive self talk was mentioned, and I think it's really undervalued. (If you can get Stuart Smalley out of your head, ha.)
One of my purposes in starting this thread was to empower people. I think that how you view yourself is powerful. If you believe you can get control over your food, you'll get there, even if you're going to fake your way to doing it.
I tend to think that rushing to label food as having undue influence on your willingness to "cave" and over-consume it or mindlessly consume it puts you in the role of a victim, and that it's counterproductive to weight loss success.
Empowerment is being in charge of your choices. Are you an addict, or just a person with a bad habit who is going to do something about it?
Some outliers will truly have a real issue and need professional help, but for the most part, I firmly believe that most people have it within themselves to overcome their issues with problematic food behavior if they believe their commitment to improving is more important than the food.
The bolded is also true for people addicted to heroin, nicotine, and alcohol - the majority of addicts quit on their own.
But yes, feeling powerless is...disempowering. Being invalidated can also be disempowering. I prefer to not invalidate someone's experience because I don't think that's helpful.
Well, there's a fine line between validating and enabling.
Letting someone think they're addicted when they're not is enabling, imo.
Telling someone they're not addicted and leaving at that isn't helpful, I'll agree even though it's the truth and it's a message that the poster needs to absorb for their own well-being. Adding further advice? That's a different story. It changes the message of the first part to one where you're reframing the person's perception of themselves. You're not necessarily invalidating someone by challenging their assumptions.
I've been on many sugar threads, but have stopped responding, but I tend to respond in a similar fashion to lemurcat. I tell the person they're not addicted, but that I understand that certain foods are now a problem for them (there's that validation). I share my experience and what worked for me, because that's all the advice I'm comfortable giving.
Posts like that tend to get lost in the "it's addiction!" "it's not addiction!" furor.
0 -
Great article on a controversial issue.
I don't talk very much about the specifics of it all much on the forums, but I am one of the few that has been diagnosed with BED. For me BED is the closest thing clinically to the criteria for abuse or dependence aka addiction. However it is not the substance that is addictive as you stated so well, it is the trigger and then the binging as a response as self medicating or comfort.
I know what my trigger foods are and I could easily say I am addicted to them, but I know physically I am not. I did go to therapy (which I highly recommend for anyone who thinks they may have BED since it is not appropriate to self diagnose). Part of my treatment regimen was to identify the trigger foods, the trigger emotions and then to have an actionable plan in place when I am triggered in the future. It's a lot of self care activities, a healthy support system and some cognitive behavior techniques. Honestly, it is not a lot different than what happens often in and out of the rooms at AA and NA meetings.
However I am not addicted to food. I have a disorder where I pathological comfort with food.
I also know that for me it is not in my self care plan to deny myself in total my trigger foods. Well except in one circumstance....when I am triggered emotionally....I cannot consume those foods. They are off the table. Not because they are bad or because I am physically addicted to them, but because I know my brain is trying to feed an emotional hunger and I refuse to engage it.
Thanks for bringing this up and I have hope that the forum can have an honest and respectful conversation about this.
Well said.
It's discouraging to hear people who think these are excuses. They aren't.
There are reasons why someone develops a disorder.
That's not a choice.
The choice is what you did to get help.
Very inspiring.
Thanks for sharing.0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »vivmom2014 wrote: »What about helping/advising people? Positive self talk was mentioned, and I think it's really undervalued. (If you can get Stuart Smalley out of your head, ha.)
One of my purposes in starting this thread was to empower people. I think that how you view yourself is powerful. If you believe you can get control over your food, you'll get there, even if you're going to fake your way to doing it.
I tend to think that rushing to label food as having undue influence on your willingness to "cave" and over-consume it or mindlessly consume it puts you in the role of a victim, and that it's counterproductive to weight loss success.
Empowerment is being in charge of your choices. Are you an addict, or just a person with a bad habit who is going to do something about it?
Some outliers will truly have a real issue and need professional help, but for the most part, I firmly believe that most people have it within themselves to overcome their issues with problematic food behavior if they believe their commitment to improving is more important than the food.
The bolded is also true for people addicted to heroin, nicotine, and alcohol - the majority of addicts quit on their own.
But yes, feeling powerless is...disempowering. Being invalidated can also be disempowering. I prefer to not invalidate someone's experience because I don't think that's helpful.
It's not invalidating someone's experience to help them realize that they aren't addicted to food. It's validating to acknowledge that you are aware they have a problem and need help, and that you are willing to help them. Just because someone has labeled their problem of overeating with the wrong label - addiction - doesn't mean you just allow that label to stick and address the problem from that angle, because that's not helpful. Assisting the person in finding the reason for overeating is helpful.
And no, most people addicted to heroin, nicotine and alcohol do not quit on their own.
The Surprising Truth About Addiction
More people quit addictions than maintain them, and they do so on their own.
Read more: https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200407/the-surprising-truth-about-addiction
0 -
Excellent post and great discussion0
-
Is it Zombie thread day today?
I like the term Eating Addiction (has a better ring to it).
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S01497634140021400 -
tennisdude2004 wrote: »Is it Zombie thread day today?
I like the term Eating Addiction (has a better ring to it).
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0149763414002140
Nope. Couldn't prove their theory in humans, so they went back to the mice, which can't follow through to human studies. It's been proven over and over again. Doesn't matter what you call it.0
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 392.1K Introduce Yourself
- 43.6K Getting Started
- 259.9K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.7K Food and Nutrition
- 47.4K Recipes
- 232.4K Fitness and Exercise
- 403 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.4K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 152.8K Motivation and Support
- 7.9K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.4K MyFitnessPal Information
- 23 News and Announcements
- 982 Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.4K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions