Dog Park Drama

MSeel1984

Long winded story-sorry in advance.

So we took my two boxers to a dog park for the first time this past weekend. We learned our older dog (shelter dog) doesn't get along with big groups of dogs. He's insecure and doesn't understand how to play...he does get along with a select few stable dogs, but works best one on one or in small groups. It'll be a while before we bring him to a park again. We DID keep him on leash the whole time except a couple owners who requested that we take him to the other small fenced area to let him and their dog off leash to play...that was per their request/permission. We controlled him the whole time.

Our puppy did great and had no problems getting along with the other dogs, running and playing. We even met a husky puppy owned by another younger couple and the two pups got along great.

So last night I took our puppy back to the dog park...didn't bring the older dog because he obviously needs more socializing/skills before coming back.

When we got there, before we even got past the gate, there was another dog barking/snarling/baring it's teeth at my puppy. The older gentleman behind me who was also about to enter the park with his dog said that the dog that was barking (Zoey) is a regular at the park and is actually a good dog, just "very dominant/alpha". I tried not to worry too much and brought my puppy into the park.

Immediately, the other dog started nipping/barking/snarling at my puppy. She ended up hiding under the bench/near humans the whole time and didn't get to play much with the other dogs. At one point, she was cowering next to me (I was seated on the ground) while Zoey was barking at her incessantly (in my face as well).

Well the other couple that owned the husky puppy happened to come by to visit as well. Zuzu/my puppy seemed to remember her and the two of them started to romp and play as they did last time...Zoey didn't like that and immediately went after both puppies. She went after the husky to the extent that the puppy was yelping...My puppy was trying to be submissive (play bowing, rolling on her back in front of Zoey, etc)...

MEANWHILE, the dog's human/owner did NOTHING to stop his dog...the other people there seemed to think this was just fine because Zoey is "dominant" or an "alpha"...NO...this is NOT ok!

Would anybody else think this is just fine dog behavior? I'm a huge fan of Cesar Milan and he does not advocate a dog that behaves this way...HUMANS should be the dominant ones, not the dog! Am I right? I'm afraid to bring Zuzu back to this park because I don't want her to have negative associations with other dogs (we already have a dog with insecurity issues and it's been difficult to train him out of it).

mfrkorey

I think you are absolutely right. Zoey should be able to play and romp but a little common courtesy...

TitzMcGeez

honestly, the dog park I went to in San Antonio with our boy had a very explicitly spelled out rule board... Any dogs showing signs of aggression were to be removed IMMEDIATELY, no exceptions.

There were a few times, I would have to call animal control or get the park police over to have the owner remove his/her dog because their animal would aggressive/biting/snarling/attacking...

if there is a rule there, posted ANYWHERE that says anything like that, don't be afraid to stand up for your dog. You have JUST AS MUCH RIGHT to let your dog play as the jerkoff that wants to let their dog be aggressive and territorial... Dog parks are community area, not territory...

wineplease

MEANWHILE, the dog's human/owner did NOTHING to stop his dog...the other people there seemed to think this was just fine because Zoey is "dominant" or an "alpha"...NO...this is NOT ok!

Did you say anything to the dog's owner? I bet if you spoke up and said something, others who seem to be okay with it, might back you up. Sometimes all it takes is one person speaking up to get others to do the same.

bonitacash08

You're absolutely right. We can't always know what will set our dogs off, but it's our responsibility to act when they do start to get aggressive. I have an 18 month old pit bull puppy that loves to play--to an extent. She loves to run around with a group of other dogs but doesn't like when they touch her and try to play. One puppy tried to play with her and she got scared, started barking and baring her teeth. I immediately leashed her and left the park.

1. She's a pit bull and some people are already predisposed to think she's dangerous.

2. The other puppy did nothing wrong to her (that I saw)

3. I don't want my dog to be in distress.

Since my dog is the one who showed the aggressive behavior, it's my responsibility to rectify it.

IpuffyheartHeelsinthegym

seems to me Zoey's owners should have let their dog know that was not acceptable. If it had been me, I would have let them know that. You should not have to feel uncomfortable taking your dog to a dog park. They need to learn how to be more responsible dog owners.

tasharock

Dog parks are a recipe for disaster. Caesar is a moron. There are plenty of other ways to get adequate, well-rounded exercise for your dogs.

Also want to echo speaking up. It's a public place, yes, but rules are rules.

pcastagner

You're a huge fan of Caesar Milan? There is the problem right there. There were a bunch of other people at the park who are also fans of Caesar Milan or other pseudoscience advocates like him. Dominance/submission is possibly the worst approach for rearing animals with one foot in wolf culture and one foot in human culture. The real result of Caesar's way is a bunch of people who think bullying is "natural" and that dogs can "work it out".

A well educated dog owner uses rewards to shape their dog's behavior, in a way that decreases aggression and increases play. If you reward dominance, you get dominance until it is self rewarding, and in the dog park, it should become obvious why this is the wrong trait to reinforce in a pet dog trying to fit into urban human culture.

Dogs have a very high degree of social adaptability. I can't fathom why anyone would put less emphasis on that, and more emphasis on how they can be similar to wolves, other than the quick and visible but illusory results achieved by learning to act like an animal instead of teaching the animal something. That and I guess you feel like an instant badass when you "correct" (punish) a dog, whereas patiently working with treats and clickers feels like it can't possibly get results at first.

Lone_Wolf70

if one dog was aggressively messing with my dog i would just tell the owner to get your dog or ill knock you the F out. Problem solved.

4_Lisa

You are absolutely right. The dog should be submissive to the owner. We have a small breed dog and a boxer/old english bulldog cross, the boxer is very protective of our little guy and will let other dogs know it, however she is 100% submissive to us. We have been in dog parks as well, and had other bigger dogs go after the little one and she lets them know it is not ok...

I do think however you should still be taking the big boxer with you. Even if he is on a leash and sitting with you, he is still watching and learning what is acceptable and what is not simply by being there.

misanthropist319

The mean dog's (Zoey) should not come to the park. That is no way to behave and it's ridiculous that her owners did nothing. Are there any other dog parks around? I would try another park or try to go when that dog and it's rude owners are not present.

JustJennie1

It is NOT acceptable behavior in the least.

We found out that our dog -- who we obtained because he was abandoned at the end of our road -- was NOT social towards other dogs the hard way. We live in a very rural area on a dead end dirt road so it is perfectly acceptable for us to walk our dog off leash (we carry the leash with us) because no one except one person walks their dog down our road. Well, this person was walking their two dogs one day and ours went tearing off after them and was tangling with them pretty hard. Let me tell you, it is pretty scary to try and pull your 75lb German Shepherd off of two decent sized labs! The dog owner was rather good natured about it but I bought him a muzzle that we used when we walked him.

We have been socializing him with other dogs and he is a lot better than he was but we are still very mindful of his behavior and I always keep an eye out for strangers walking with their dogs and (provided I see them ahead of time) I am able to call our dog back and hook him up on the leash and then we can ask the other dog owner if they mind if we try to socialize our dog with theirs. If I don't see the ahead of time and he takes off he is no where near where he was with the first encounter. Now he just sniffs the other dog and tries to play a bit.

Believe me my dog KNOWS the behavior is absolutely unacceptable and we are trying very hard to break him of the habit.

kristafb

I have two dogs and my older guy was an abused rescue who came to me with a bad case of fear aggression and thinking he was the alpha dog everywhere we went. We are fortunate to have a wonderful off leash park near our home with a beach & long wooded trails which we get to most days. We've had a lot of trouble with dog aggression, especially at the beach where dogs tend to play in groups. My guy, though not aggressive any more still growls when aggressively approached by even the friendliest dogs and one of his least favorites are boxers because of their bouncy, playful nature. He also is part border collie and tries to herd puppies. If they are the least bit submissive he will try to dominate them by barking at them until they lay down. Everything you described this other dog as doing I've seen my Sam do. But as others said its up to the owner to correct this behavior. I am always after my guy to behave and when he starts to show too much anxiety and starts barking too much we walk the trails to get out of the situation. Its too bad that more owners don't take responsibility for their pets but its a sad state of life. Sorry you had a bad time, but please don't take your dogs to the park because of one bad apple, socialization is soooooo important, especially to puppies. Best of luck!

Lovdiamnd

I hate when people won't control their dogs. Around 7 of my friends and I took all of our dogs to the park in the evening 2 weeks ago. This guy came in the fenced area with his dog on a leash (which is a big no no because it can cause aggressive behavior) and his dog was terrified that he couldn't get away from the mob of happy dogs that were coming to say hello. His dog snarled at my friends lab (one of the most friendly and well behaved dogs I know) and the guy KICKED MY FRIENDS LAB!! When my friend yelled at him not to kick her dog the guy said that Freedom (her lab) was being aggressive (NOT EVEN!). We could smell the beer on them from from like 30 feet away! They guy dropped a few of his beers of your his grocery bag trying to untangle his dog from around him (because it was still on the leash). We explained that there is no alcohol allowed and explained that it's against the rules to have the dog on a leash when all the others are not... he got mad and started cussing and carrying on. Some people I swear.

lavieboheme1229

Dog parks are a recipe for disaster. Caesar is a moron. There are plenty of other ways to get adequate, well-rounded exercise for your dogs.

Also want to echo speaking up. It's a public place, yes, but rules are rules.

This guy put it very bluntly, but I have to admit, I agree with him. I've never had luck with dog parks. It's the equivalent of letting a bunch of sugar high 3 year old' who have never met run around in the playground when there is only 1 basketball and 1 swing, while their parents turn their back. I prefer structured dog classes as a way to social my dog (who also has dog aggressive behaviors/problems).

In regards to Cesar- I personally don't like the relationship he establishes with his dogs. I would equate it to parents who say their kids are behaved because they are afraid of them. And granted, some dogs need that. But a dog with a delicate psyche who has been traumatized before does NOT need to be scared into submission. I would recommend looking into Victoria Stillwell. An amazing dog trainer who believes in positive reinforcement, patience, and consistency. Her techniques have worked wonders for my traumatized Jack Russel.

I can understand how speaking up could be awkward and confrontational. However, it is public property. If the rule is posted (which I'm sure it must), a simple call to animal control could prompt an officer to monitor the park on a more regular basis.

Simply put- no, you were not out of line. I hope you can find a more structured socialization for your dog.

4_Lisa

You're a huge fan of Caesar Milan? There is the problem right there. There were a bunch of other people at the park who are also fans of Caesar Milan or other pseudoscience advocates like him. Dominance/submission is possibly the worst approach for rearing animals with one foot in wolf culture and one foot in human culture. The real result of Caesar's way is a bunch of people who think bullying is "natural" and that dogs can "work it out".

A well educated dog owner uses rewards to shape their dog's behavior, in a way that decreases aggression and increases play. If you reward dominance, you get dominance until it is self rewarding, and in the dog park, it should become obvious why this is the wrong trait to reinforce in a pet dog trying to fit into urban human culture.

Dogs have a very high degree of social adaptability. I can't fathom why anyone would put less emphasis on that, and more emphasis on how they can be similar to wolves, other than the quick and visible but illusory results achieved by learning to act like an animal instead of teaching the animal something. That and I guess you feel like an instant badass when you "correct" (punish) a dog, whereas patiently working with treats and clickers feels like it can't possibly get results at first.

I don't believe in rewarding with food. We play hard with our boxer, and since she was a puppy we play the same way animals do, and as soon as we give command, she's on her back or giving kisses (depending on the command given). We have never used the clicker approach, that to me is ridiculous, and we don't reward with treats, the dogs don't learn true behavior changes, in my opinion, by giving food. I have never used that approach with animals. Our dog responds to hand gestures and is one of the most social dogs I know.

Punishment is completely acceptable training, and a dog need to know who is in charge, dogs still need to have some sense that they are an animal and their instincts need to be fostered. I want a dog that knows when to be aggressive (when someone is breaking into my house/property that they are there to protect), and when not to be aggressive. THAT is responsible ownership!
Being alpha with your dog has nothing to do with it being afraid of you (or with kids for that matter) it's about being a leader. These lines seem to have been blurred over the years in both animal and child rearing. My kids are very well behaved, not because they are afraid of me (yes I punished them when they were younger) but because I have led them and taught them acceptable behaviour. They also know that there are consequences to actions, something that seems to be lacking as of late. Same thing goes for the animal world. Action = consequence. Positive = positive, negative = negative. SIMPLE.

JustJennie1

That and I guess you feel like an instant badass when you "correct" (punish) a dog

So when my dog is playing and he bites me hard I should just snatch my hand away and giggle instead of giving him a swat and a stern "NO"? Sorry but punishing a dog for doing wrong is the way to correct him from repeating the action. Had I not swatted him and told him NO he would think it's fine to bite. Now all I have to do is say "ow" or "NO!" and he releases.

sabified

You're absolutely right. We can't always know what will set our dogs off, but it's our responsibility to act when they do start to get aggressive. I have an 18 month old pit bull puppy that loves to play--to an extent. She loves to run around with a group of other dogs but doesn't like when they touch her and try to play. One puppy tried to play with her and she got scared, started barking and baring her teeth. I immediately leashed her and left the park.

1. She's a pit bull and some people are already predisposed to think she's dangerous.

2. The other puppy did nothing wrong to her (that I saw)

3. I don't want my dog to be in distress.

Since my dog is the one who showed the aggressive behavior, it's my responsibility to rectify it.

If only all dog owners thought like you. I had a doberman, who was honestly the sweetest thing ever, though most people were afraid of him. He used to have issues at dog parks with other dogs being aggressive to him... the only time he was ever overbearing himself was when he found a pretty little lassy type dog (can't remember what they're called) that he seemed to take a fancy to... he wasn't being aggressive at all, just kept sniffing and trying to make her play with him, but she clearly didn't like it and was hiding by her owner much the same as OPs puppy. I took him away because it was clearly not allowing the other dog to play, even though her owner didn't mind at all (she thought it was hilarious, lol).

4_Lisa

That and I guess you feel like an instant badass when you "correct" (punish) a dog

So when my dog is playing and he bites me hard I should just snatch my hand away and giggle instead of giving him a swat and a stern "NO"?

No, pull out the clicker.

3dogsrunning

You're a huge fan of Caesar Milan? There is the problem right there. There were a bunch of other people at the park who are also fans of Caesar Milan or other pseudoscience advocates like him. Dominance/submission is possibly the worst approach for rearing animals with one foot in wolf culture and one foot in human culture. The real result of Caesar's way is a bunch of people who think bullying is "natural" and that dogs can "work it out".

A well educated dog owner uses rewards to shape their dog's behavior, in a way that decreases aggression and increases play. If you reward dominance, you get dominance until it is self rewarding, and in the dog park, it should become obvious why this is the wrong trait to reinforce in a pet dog trying to fit into urban human culture.

Dogs have a very high degree of social adaptability. I can't fathom why anyone would put less emphasis on that, and more emphasis on how they can be similar to wolves, other than the quick and visible but illusory results achieved by learning to act like an animal instead of teaching the animal something. That and I guess you feel like an instant badass when you "correct" (punish) a dog, whereas patiently working with treats and clickers feels like it can't possibly get results at first.

I don't believe in rewarding with food. We play hard with our boxer, and since she was a puppy we play the same way animals do, and as soon as we give command, she's on her back or giving kisses (depending on the command given). We have never used the clicker approach, that to me is ridiculous, and we don't reward with treats, the dogs don't learn true behavior changes, in my opinion, by giving food. I have never used that approach with animals. Our dog responds to hand gestures and is one of the most social dogs I know.

Punishment is completely acceptable training, and a dog need to know who is in charge, dogs still need to have some sense that they are an animal and their instincts need to be fostered. I want a dog that knows when to be aggressive (when someone is breaking into my house/property that they are there to protect), and when not to be aggressive. THAT is responsible ownership!
Being alpha with your dog has nothing to do with it being afraid of you (or with kids for that matter) it's about being a leader. These lines seem to have been blurred over the years in both animal and child rearing. My kids are very well behaved, not because they are afraid of me (yes I punished them when they were younger) but because I have led them and taught them acceptable behaviour. They also know that there are consequences to actions, something that seems to be lacking as of late. Same thing goes for the animal world. Action = consequence. Positive = positive, negative = negative. SIMPLE.

Actually, in terms of training/operant conditioning, positive means added not "good" and negative means taken away, not "bad". Many corrections would be positive punishment. A reward would be positive reinforcement.
Reward based training, food or other rewards, is not ridiculous. Note - because I say that does not mean I do not believe in corrections either. All have their place in training. Ever train a dog to track? Rewards are used, not corrections.


ETA - sorry to address the OP - I'm in the "not a fan of dog parks" camp.

4_Lisa

You're a huge fan of Caesar Milan? There is the problem right there. There were a bunch of other people at the park who are also fans of Caesar Milan or other pseudoscience advocates like him. Dominance/submission is possibly the worst approach for rearing animals with one foot in wolf culture and one foot in human culture. The real result of Caesar's way is a bunch of people who think bullying is "natural" and that dogs can "work it out".

A well educated dog owner uses rewards to shape their dog's behavior, in a way that decreases aggression and increases play. If you reward dominance, you get dominance until it is self rewarding, and in the dog park, it should become obvious why this is the wrong trait to reinforce in a pet dog trying to fit into urban human culture.


Dogs have a very high degree of social adaptability. I can't fathom why anyone would put less emphasis on that, and more emphasis on how they can be similar to wolves, other than the quick and visible but illusory results achieved by learning to act like an animal instead of teaching the animal something. That and I guess you feel like an instant badass when you "correct" (punish) a dog, whereas patiently working with treats and clickers feels like it can't possibly get results at first.

I don't believe in rewarding with food. We play hard with our boxer, and since she was a puppy we play the same way animals do, and as soon as we give command, she's on her back or giving kisses (depending on the command given). We have never used the clicker approach, that to me is ridiculous, and we don't reward with treats, the dogs don't learn true behavior changes, in my opinion, by giving food. I have never used that approach with animals. Our dog responds to hand gestures and is one of the most social dogs I know.

Punishment is completely acceptable training, and a dog need to know who is in charge, dogs still need to have some sense that they are an animal and their instincts need to be fostered. I want a dog that knows when to be aggressive (when someone is breaking into my house/property that they are there to protect), and when not to be aggressive. THAT is responsible ownership!
Being alpha with your dog has nothing to do with it being afraid of you (or with kids for that matter) it's about being a leader. These lines seem to have been blurred over the years in both animal and child rearing. My kids are very well behaved, not because they are afraid of me (yes I punished them when they were younger) but because I have led them and taught them acceptable behaviour. They also know that there are consequences to actions, something that seems to be lacking as of late. Same thing goes for the animal world. Action = consequence. Positive = positive, negative = negative. SIMPLE.

Actually, in terms of training/operant conditioning, positive means added not "good" and negative means taken away, not "bad". Many corrections would be positive punishment. A reward would be positive reinforcement.
Reward based training, food or other rewards, is not ridiculous. Note - because I say that does not mean I do not believe in corrections either. All have their place in training. Ever train a dog to track? Rewards are used, not corrections.

I do both, I reward positives with play time, or belly rubs or something of that nature, and I correct negative behavior, the correction depends on the type of behavior, more serious (nipping) gets a tap on the nose, minor behaviors and she gets sent to her bed (on the floor in front of the tv). She's never given food as a reward, those are simply treats and she doesn't expect to get them when she does something right.

RelativeChaos00

I'm actually a little afraid to take our dogs to the dog park here. Our smaller dog is about 40 lbs and while she loves people, she hates small animals and the average dog here in San Antonio seems to be about the size of a chihuahua. I'm afraid she'd eat someone's rat. She lived outside for the first 7 years of her life until my husband and I got her. Our other dog terrifies people. He's about 90 lbs and people comment on how big the little one is! lol. He worried me though because he isn't a huge fan of strangers and doesn't really want people to mess with him without being properly introduced, he's very protective of his people. I do not think he'd hurt someone that wasn't trying to hurt us but I know he'll try to scare them off if they act at all afraid of him and most people do. I'd love to take them, the big one in particular, but I don't want to lose my dog because someone else doesn't keep an eye on their own or approaches him stupidly.

JustJennie1

That and I guess you feel like an instant badass when you "correct" (punish) a dog

So when my dog is playing and he bites me hard I should just snatch my hand away and giggle instead of giving him a swat and a stern "NO"?

No, pull out the clicker.

WTF is a clicker going to do?

kmm7309

Just being honest... I would have popped that dog in the face right in front of them.

My dog will NEVER be bitten by another dog in those kind of circumstances and get away with it. It is a dog park. I am okay with (very supervised) socializing going on. My dogs are not super comfortable around other dogs and the only way they will learn is with exposure.

Maybe it's not my place to punish someone else's dog, but my dogs are non-threatening and I expect to feel safe in a dog park. I would not bring an "alpha dog" to a dog park. I used to walk one of my dogs in the neighborhood and my (leashed) dog was attacked by a non-leashed dog. I did the only thing I could think of: I stabbed the other dog. I don't think I did anything wrong, and I defended my position when confronted by the owners.

reallymyBEST

I think dog parks are very stressful for dogs and odd and unpredictable behaviors will come out as a result. And just like a human going to a store and encountering ill-behaved humans, you will encounter ill-behaved dogs (and humans!) at the dog park just because it's for public use.

Seems like there are always a group of core users who know each other and all the pressure is on the "new guy" to try to find a way to initiate play and fine a way to fit in. True not only for the dogs, but for the humans. And that social structure is different on every visit, depending on which dogs are there. I think dogs want to play and spend time with their humans, not trying to figure out where they fit in with dogs they don't know.

ebr250

Dog parks are a recipe for disaster. Caesar is a moron. There are plenty of other ways to get adequate, well-rounded exercise for your dogs.

Also want to echo speaking up. It's a public place, yes, but rules are rules.

Well put and don't forget the fact that dog parks are perfect breeding grounds for disease and injury. You think the person that can't control the dog is keeping up with its vaccinations? Not likely. And when the dog bites you or your dog, there's another fat paycheck for the vet or ER.

4_Lisa

That and I guess you feel like an instant badass when you "correct" (punish) a dog

So when my dog is playing and he bites me hard I should just snatch my hand away and giggle instead of giving him a swat and a stern "NO"?

No, pull out the clicker.

WTF is a clicker going to do?

Nothing, I don't believe in them either... sarcasm just doesn't translate....

sabified

That and I guess you feel like an instant badass when you "correct" (punish) a dog

So when my dog is playing and he bites me hard I should just snatch my hand away and giggle instead of giving him a swat and a stern "NO"?

No, pull out the clicker.

WTF is a clicker going to do?

I think it was sarcasm... made me lol, at least

JustJennie1

That and I guess you feel like an instant badass when you "correct" (punish) a dog

So when my dog is playing and he bites me hard I should just snatch my hand away and giggle instead of giving him a swat and a stern "NO"?

No, pull out the clicker.

WTF is a clicker going to do?

Nothing, I don't believe in them either... sarcasm just doesn't translate....

Gotcha.

khoff170

Take a squirt bottle of WATER with you - buy a brand new, preferably clear one so there's no confusion as to what could be in it. The aggressive dog's owner does nothing to control their dog then you do what you have to to protect yours. Kindly ask him to mind his dog and either restrain or remove it should the owner object.

4_Lisa

I think dog parks are very stressful for dogs and odd and unpredictable behaviors will come out as a result.

I agree, we usually go to the larger off leash parks, we encounter other dogs, but not in a confined space, and we try to go during slower times, when we see the dogs getting stressed we leave. We know our dogs well enough to know when they are uncomfortable. Our little guy will give a whine, and he's letting us know he's not ok.