Dog Park Drama
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Zoey is insecure, not dominant.
The thought of her not being able to control her environment sends her into a fit. So she tries to correct (and ends up over correcting) things that she think will endanger her.
The opportunity to repeat these actions make her more insecure and reactive.
The dog park is an adult playground where they can gossip while their dogs cause havoc.
Make a post on facebook or craigslist looking for puppy playdates and avoid the dog park.
Let me guess, shes a herding breed? She sounds like one.
LOL, yes...Cattle dog.0 -
Zoey is insecure, not dominant.
The thought of her not being able to control her environment sends her into a fit. So she tries to correct (and ends up over correcting) things that she think will endanger her.
The opportunity to repeat these actions make her more insecure and reactive.
The dog park is an adult playground where they can gossip while their dogs cause havoc.
Make a post on facebook or craigslist looking for puppy playdates and avoid the dog park.
Let me guess, shes a herding breed? She sounds like one.
While I am by no means a dog trainer I disagree.
Zoey is asserting her dominance by barking, nipping, going after the other dogs. My dog was/is the same way. He would see another dog and take off after them and start barking, jumping on top of them, grabbing them by the scruff of their neck. Even now with his dog friend he tries to assert his dominance by "body checking" him, mounting him etc. My friend who owns the other dog and has trained dogs said that my dog is trying to show he's dominant. Thankfully the other dog is really cool and just ignores him.0 -
Dog parks are not a good environment for dogs. Dogs are "pack" animals and instinctively socialize with a small number of other dogs within a stable and known group where every dog has a relatively set place within the social order. Dogs determine that social order by utilizing dominant and submissive behavior, including overt aggression between wanna-be alphas. When you take your dog to the dog park to interact with strange dogs, you are creating this pack order drama every single time, because you are putting your dog in the middle of a bunch of strange dogs and forcing them to determine social order amongst themselves. It would be the equivalent of the first day of high school for a human -- not a relaxing and enjoyable experience.
Ever notice when you watch "The Dog Whisperer" that Caesar's stable pack is always acting calm and happy until he adds a new dog to the mix and then all the dogs get squirrelly and aggressive? Ummm... yeah. Not a great idea to dump your dog into an unstable pack with unknown dogs who have the potential to be aggressive.
Dogs don't need to interact with 100 other dogs. They are perfectly happy interacting within their home canine/human pack, where they understand their place and don't have to constantly assess and prove their place in the social order.
Dog parks serve no purpose for dogs. They serve a purpose for humans who want to treat their dogs like human babies instead of dogs. Dog parks are also a great place for your dog to catch a canine virus or parasites (worms/fleas/ticks), because many owners don't vaccinate or provide veterinary care.
I take my dogs to the park or out in the woods/desert/country where there are no other dogs so they can run and play. I stay far away from other dogs because I don't trust other dog owners and their undisciplined "babies."0 -
No.Zoey is insecure, not dominant.
The thought of her not being able to control her environment sends her into a fit. So she tries to correct (and ends up over correcting) things that she think will endanger her.
The opportunity to repeat these actions make her more insecure and reactive.
The dog park is an adult playground where they can gossip while their dogs cause havoc.
Make a post on facebook or craigslist looking for puppy playdates and avoid the dog park.
Let me guess, shes a herding breed? She sounds like one.
While I am by no means a dog trainer I disagree.
Zoey is asserting her dominance by barking, nipping, going after the other dogs. My dog was/is the same way. He would see another dog and take off after them and start barking, jumping on top of them, grabbing them by the scruff of their neck. Even now with his dog friend he tries to assert his dominance by "body checking" him, mounting him etc. My friend who owns the other dog and has trained dogs said that my dog is trying to show he's dominant. Thankfully the other dog is really cool and just ignores him.
You're mistaken. That is not dominance.
This is an insecure dog that does not know how to read other dogs or communicate properly. It probably had this same stuff happen to it as a puppy and now has social issues.
A dominant dog is a dog who can control its environment and get what it wants, a dog rolling over can be the dominant one in many situations. Dominant dogs are crafty and know social hierarchy very well and are manipulative. They are NOT the loudest / most aggressive one. Dominant dogs are the quiet, well rounded and stable ones.
Your dog is trying to play, but is doing horribly at it. Humping, biting the scruff, jumping and barking.. All play behaviors. All signs of a stressed out dog. He is having fun, but does not know how to effectively control/communicate the other dog to get the response that he wants (either more play or no play). So he gets rough, trying to do things the only way he know(knew?) how, which is essentially being a bully.0 -
No.Zoey is insecure, not dominant.
The thought of her not being able to control her environment sends her into a fit. So she tries to correct (and ends up over correcting) things that she think will endanger her.
The opportunity to repeat these actions make her more insecure and reactive.
The dog park is an adult playground where they can gossip while their dogs cause havoc.
Make a post on facebook or craigslist looking for puppy playdates and avoid the dog park.
Let me guess, shes a herding breed? She sounds like one.
While I am by no means a dog trainer I disagree.
Zoey is asserting her dominance by barking, nipping, going after the other dogs. My dog was/is the same way. He would see another dog and take off after them and start barking, jumping on top of them, grabbing them by the scruff of their neck. Even now with his dog friend he tries to assert his dominance by "body checking" him, mounting him etc. My friend who owns the other dog and has trained dogs said that my dog is trying to show he's dominant. Thankfully the other dog is really cool and just ignores him.
You're mistaken. That is not dominance.
This is an insecure dog that does not know how to read other dogs or communicate properly. It probably had this same stuff happen to it as a puppy and now has social issues.
A dominant dog is a dog who can control its environment and get what it wants, a dog rolling over can be the dominant one in many situations. Dominant dogs are crafty and know social hierarchy very well and are manipulative. They are NOT the loudest / most aggressive one. Dominant dogs are the quiet, well rounded and stable ones.
Your dog is trying to play, but is doing horribly at it. Humping, biting the scruff, jumping and barking.. All play behaviors. All signs of a stressed out dog. He is having fun, but does not know how to effectively control/communicate the other dog to get the response that he wants (either more play or no play). So he gets rough, trying to do things the only way he know(knew?) how, which is essentially being a bully.
Totally agree with you!
Dominance is a bunch of boloney, when it's used in the manner that many here are. A dominant/alpha dog is calm and relaxed. They aren't running around trying to hump other dogs, biting them or rolling them. Insecure dogs are doing those things.
My alpha is 12 1/2 years old and all of the dogs that come to train with us or board with us defer to her without her having to do many, if any corrections. They just know she's the queen bee and they defer to her. She has NEVER actively gone after another dog.
I don't ascribe to the belief that dogs are trying to take over the world. They don't want to be in charge. They are no different than children in the fact that they want and need boundaries to feel happy and secure. Like children, they don't do well when beaten into submission or manhandled.0 -
Not that anyone is accusing here, but I just wanted to clarify something.
If my puppy does something I don't want her to do, I gently reprimand her (claw-shape hand to the rear or two fingers to the neck...touch only, not hitting/slapping/etc). I do reward for good behaviors that I want to reinforce.
I think a combination of training is important...I do think of it in terms of how I'd treat a child...
You don't reward a child for misbehaving or stepping outside their boundaries...you ground them. you put them in time out...if the behavior is good, you reward it.
I don't think that training solely based on treats and rewards will be effective...that's my own opinion and I stick to it.0 -
Ok but the problem is that 90% of people / can not / issue a correction correctly. Their timing, form, application and reasoning is ALL off. By the time you get to your dog to correct her and issue the correction, it means absolutely nothing to her. I'm not against corrections, I use an e-collar, pinch and clicker/treats. But I would never ever tell anyone to use them simply because these tools are abused. If you're issuing more than 5 corrections a day then something is seriously flawed in your training methods. The behavior should be trained with treats then corrected after the dog has a knowledge of what it should be doing. Corrections are to proof behaviors.Not that anyone is accusing here, but I just wanted to clarify something.
If my puppy does something I don't want her to do, I gently reprimand her (claw-shape hand to the rear or two fingers to the neck...touch only, not hitting/slapping/etc). I do reward for good behaviors that I want to reinforce.
I think a combination of training is important...I do think of it in terms of how I'd treat a child...
You don't reward a child for misbehaving or stepping outside their boundaries...you ground them. you put them in time out...if the behavior is good, you reward it.
I don't think that training solely based on treats and rewards will be effective...that's my own opinion and I stick to it.
When has grounding or time-outs ever worked for children? Look at todays teenagers.. They just continue to defy you. Besides, dogs are NOT humans and corrections do not work the same way. Humans can think abstractedly and feel guilt. Dogs can't go "Remember that time I pee'd on the couch.." They can't make the connections that we do, and even then, humans also suck with communication. Haven't you ever gotten into an argument with someone that you thought was because of X, but it was really because of Y? Yeah, me too.
The problem is that with the numbers of unstable and ill-bred dogs there are now-a-days, this can make or break a dog and get it sent to the shelter, abandoned, abused or killed.
I did not intend this to seem directed at you, but in a general speaking term, I'm speaking to everyone. :flowerforyou:
These are my guidelines to using corrections in training:
Only use when dog is engaged
Do not use on a stressed dog
Know when to call it quits
Use in conjunction with treats
Only use when dog knows what you're asking of it
Do not use to teach behaviors, but to proof them
Do not attempt if your timing is horrible and risk correcting too late or you're prone to getting frustrated/upset and over correcting
And if you're issuing more than 5 corrections in a 30 minute time span you aren't doing it right and have no business issuing a correction.0 -
Thank you. :flowerforyou:Totally agree with you!
Dominance is a bunch of boloney, when it's used in the manner that many here are. A dominant/alpha dog is calm and relaxed. They aren't running around trying to hump other dogs, biting them or rolling them. Insecure dogs are doing those things.
My alpha is 12 1/2 years old and all of the dogs that come to train with us or board with us defer to her without her having to do many, if any corrections. They just know she's the queen bee and they defer to her. She has NEVER actively gone after another dog.
I don't ascribe to the belief that dogs are trying to take over the world. They don't want to be in charge. They are no different than children in the fact that they want and need boundaries to feel happy and secure. Like children, they don't do well when beaten into submission or manhandled.
My guy in my pic is my alpha, he just turned 3 years. I've used him to rehabilitate a dozen dog-aggressive and fearful dogs. He knows how to communicate very well and has lots of self control. He knows exactly when to submit to calm the dog, and how to deflect dogs that want to bite his head off. The dog's owners are always so amazed how he can just calmly turn his back to their dog and disengage entirely when their dog is snapping in his face and trying to start trouble. Soon their dog stops displaying signs of insecurities and looks to him for approval.
All dogs want is order and stability. When there is no one playing leader they assume they must fill the role. They don't want to be a leader, it is too much stress for the majority of dogs and they do not know how to handle it. You must (gently) show your dog that you can control their environment and resources so they feel secure.
This is why everyone says 'Consistency is key'. Just wish everyone took that phrase more seriously lol.0 -
Ok but the problem is that 90% of people / can not / issue a correction correctly. Their timing, form, application and reasoning is ALL off. By the time you get to your dog to correct her and issue the correction, it means absolutely nothing to her. I'm not against corrections, I use an e-collar, pinch and clicker/treats. But I would never ever tell anyone to use them simply because these tools are abused. If you're issuing more than 5 corrections a day then something is seriously flawed in your training methods. The behavior should be trained with treats then corrected after the dog has a knowledge of what it should be doing. Corrections are to proof behaviors.Not that anyone is accusing here, but I just wanted to clarify something.
If my puppy does something I don't want her to do, I gently reprimand her (claw-shape hand to the rear or two fingers to the neck...touch only, not hitting/slapping/etc). I do reward for good behaviors that I want to reinforce.
I think a combination of training is important...I do think of it in terms of how I'd treat a child...
You don't reward a child for misbehaving or stepping outside their boundaries...you ground them. you put them in time out...if the behavior is good, you reward it.
I don't think that training solely based on treats and rewards will be effective...that's my own opinion and I stick to it.
When has grounding or time-outs ever worked for children? Look at todays teenagers.. They just continue to defy you. Besides, dogs are NOT humans and corrections do not work the same way. Humans can think abstractedly and feel guilt. Dogs can't go "Remember that time I pee'd on the couch.." They can't make the connections that we do, and even then, humans also suck with communication. Haven't you ever gotten into an argument with someone that you thought was because of X, but it was really because of Y? Yeah, me too.
The problem is that with the numbers of unstable and ill-bred dogs there are now-a-days, this can make or break a dog and get it sent to the shelter, abandoned, abused or killed.
I did not intend this to seem directed at you, but in a general speaking term, I'm speaking to everyone. :flowerforyou:
These are my guidelines to using corrections in training:
Only use when dog is engaged
Do not use on a stressed dog
Know when to call it quits
Use in conjunction with treats
Only use when dog knows what you're asking of it
Do not use to teach behaviors, but to proof them
Do not attempt if your timing is horrible and risk correcting too late or you're prone to getting frustrated/upset and over correcting
And if you're issuing more than 5 corrections in a 30 minute time span you aren't doing it right and have no business issuing a correction.
You, I like.
Even if your nickname first made me think of cats.
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Thank you. :flowerforyou:
My guy in my pic is my alpha, he just turned 3 years. I've used him to rehabilitate a dozen dog-aggressive and fearful dogs. He knows how to communicate very well and has lots of self control. He knows exactly when to submit to calm the dog, and how to deflect dogs that want to bite his head off. The dog's owners are always so amazed how he can just calmly turn his back to their dog and disengage entirely when their dog is snapping in his face and trying to start trouble. Soon their dog stops displaying signs of insecurities and looks to him for approval.
All dogs want is order and stability. When there is no one playing leader they assume they must fill the role. They don't want to be a leader, it is too much stress for the majority of dogs and they do not know how to handle it. You must (gently) show your dog that you can control their environment and resources so they feel secure.
This is why everyone says 'Consistency is key'. Just wish everyone took that phrase more seriously lol.
[/quote]
So you wanna help me rehabilitate my older dog? LoL...I've been very frustrated because I love him and he's such a sweetheart around people but...other dogs make him very skittish. He's very insecure (abandoned for the first year of his life)...
I agree about the points with the training. Now that she's older and growing to understand more (not to bite hands, not to chew on things, not to be overly aggressive with our other dog, etc) we're not reprimanding her as much...when it came to potty training we NEVER reprimanded her...just try to catch her in the act and take her outside where we wanted her to go potty. She's doing pretty well with potty training....it's a process LoL0 -
My dogs are English springer spaniels, not an aggressive breed per se, but I would NEVER permit them to act like that. Showing aggression ( to another dog, a human, or a tree for that matter) in the presence of ME, the pack alpha bytch, would bring the wrath of Dog down on their heads. As they well know.0
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I've only read about half of the replies so I apologize if this is a repeat response. I haven't had much luck with dog parks simply BECAUSE my dog is a husky. It actually warms my heart that your boxer made friends with a husky! I know it's the same thing with boxers, but I actually had a gentleman in my own backyard (of an apartment complex, before we bought our house) have his dog run up and attack my dog while he walked nonchalantly towards his dog, never rushing his pace or reprimanding his dog. He simply said "He's a husky, don't tell me he doesn't know how to hold his own." Okay... and people wonder where stereotypes of dogs come from! Sigh. My husky is very timid when he first meets another dog, but once he establishes the initial smell and whatnot, he's so playful! So for anybody to assume that my dog can "hold his own" is nonsense. Your boxer, which I'm sure faces criticism of his own simply for his breed, should not have to hide by you because of an intimidating dog.
Furthermore, I find it EMBARRASSING when Kato growls at people, dogs, anything. I wouldn't want my child throwing a temper tantrum in public, so I will certainly not tolerate my dog disrespecting anybody either. That's all training. If this dog owner at the park allows their dog to snarl, growl, and snip at your dog, tell that guy off!!!!! Don't get a dog if you're not going to invest the time to train him and certainly don't bring him to the park if he's not going to be friendly (exactly as you described with your other dog... I understand there are extenuating circumstances where sometimes, they are just scared).
I think you would be totally within your right to holler at the owner AND the dog. Who knows where that will get you though... after all, "he's a boxer, blah blah blah."0 -
The bottom line for me is that the owner did not take any responsibility for his dogs bad behavior. I would consider calling animal control. Once a dog starts down that dominant road its very important to make it stop as that behavior is inappropriate.
I have no tolerance for bad owners.0 -
The bottom line for me is that the owner did not take any responsibility for his dogs bad behavior. I would consider calling animal control. Once a dog starts down that dominant road its very important to make it stop as that behavior is inappropriate.
I have no tolerance for bad owners.
Amen.0 -
My dog is like my child. If another dog was attacking it & the owner was doing nothing, my only response would've been "Get your damn dog under control!" I wouldn't be surprised if that dog has bitten someone or will bite someone in the future. Unacceptable & even worse that it was barking at you & the owner did nothing to calm it down. Rude. I hate when people are inconsiderate to others. Ugh. The worst.
Oh & I had a Chow Chow Akita mix as a child. He was NEVER allowed to be mean even though his breed is considered aggressive. We took him to obedience classes as well as trained him to respond to commands. We only did that because he was super playful; we got him from the spca at like 12 weeks & raised him like a baby. So, he just loved everyone. Never was aggressive because we raised him right & never allowed it to happen.0 -
You're a huge fan of Caesar Milan? There is the problem right there. There were a bunch of other people at the park who are also fans of Caesar Milan or other pseudoscience advocates like him. Dominance/submission is possibly the worst approach for rearing animals with one foot in wolf culture and one foot in human culture. The real result of Caesar's way is a bunch of people who think bullying is "natural" and that dogs can "work it out".
A well educated dog owner uses rewards to shape their dog's behavior, in a way that decreases aggression and increases play. If you reward dominance, you get dominance until it is self rewarding, and in the dog park, it should become obvious why this is the wrong trait to reinforce in a pet dog trying to fit into urban human culture.
Dogs have a very high degree of social adaptability. I can't fathom why anyone would put less emphasis on that, and more emphasis on how they can be similar to wolves, other than the quick and visible but illusory results achieved by learning to act like an animal instead of teaching the animal something. That and I guess you feel like an instant badass when you "correct" (punish) a dog, whereas patiently working with treats and clickers feels like it can't possibly get results at first.
Thank you!!!0 -
I only brought my dog there once. She loved the open space, the friendly dogs. But she doesn't know her own size, and tries to play fight with the bigger dogs...not too far in and she starts yelping and trying to get away but the big dogs don't know their boundaries! I once picked her up from the centre of them and held her over my head and they were jumping on me and nearly knocked me over. Never again!0
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Dog parks are not a good environment for dogs. Dogs are "pack" animals and instinctively socialize with a small number of other dogs within a stable and known group where every dog has a relatively set place within the social order. Dogs determine that social order by utilizing dominant and submissive behavior, including overt aggression between wanna-be alphas. When you take your dog to the dog park to interact with strange dogs, you are creating this pack order drama every single time, because you are putting your dog in the middle of a bunch of strange dogs and forcing them to determine social order amongst themselves. It would be the equivalent of the first day of high school for a human -- not a relaxing and enjoyable experience.
Ever notice when you watch "The Dog Whisperer" that Caesar's stable pack is always acting calm and happy until he adds a new dog to the mix and then all the dogs get squirrelly and aggressive? Ummm... yeah. Not a great idea to dump your dog into an unstable pack with unknown dogs who have the potential to be aggressive.
Dogs don't need to interact with 100 other dogs. They are perfectly happy interacting within their home canine/human pack, where they understand their place and don't have to constantly assess and prove their place in the social order.
Dog parks serve no purpose for dogs. They serve a purpose for humans who want to treat their dogs like human babies instead of dogs. Dog parks are also a great place for your dog to catch a canine virus or parasites (worms/fleas/ticks), because many owners don't vaccinate or provide veterinary care.
I take my dogs to the park or out in the woods/desert/country where there are no other dogs so they can run and play. I stay far away from other dogs because I don't trust other dog owners and their undisciplined "babies."
Dog parks ruined my chocolate lab. She was attacked by other dogs on numerous occasions. She eventually got to the point where she would attack any dog that came near her out of fear that they would attack her first. She can no longer be around any other dogs.........I will NEVER take any other dog I get to a dog park! Oh and she got parvo!0 -
I don't know why Cesar Milan's getting so much hate. From my perspective his kind of training is really about the energy that you project when dealing with a dog. You have to be serious about your corrections or they're not going to work. And a correction can simply be a sound or a word, it doesn't mean hitting your dog. My dog responds to correction words only when I'm serious about it; she can feel the energy behind my voice. It's just like dealing with kids, you can say, "Wash your hands and set the table" halfheartedly and be ignored, or you can say the same thing in a strong, clear voice with no-nonsense energy behind it and they will hop to and do what you've asked. There's a difference between being feared and being respected, and being a strong leader and setting boundaries will earn respect from your dogs and they will be glad to know that you're in charge.
I agree. Those that hate Cesar Milan-I'm not going to say how you should feel about the topic, you are entitled to your opinions the same as I'm entitled to mine. I can't argue with his results.
Corrections for my dog are a noise and a touch...not a hit, not a slap...not screaming. Both of them respond well to it and they're not afraid.
I do appreciate all the feedback and I don't think I'll be taking my pups to the dog park again...I wouldn't want the negative experiences to impact their approach to other dogs. On a lighter note, I'm looking at possibly entering my pup in a beginner/puppy dog show next month. A way for her to meet pups her own age 0 -
I do think however you should still be taking the big boxer with you. Even if he is on a leash and sitting with you, he is still watching and learning what is acceptable and what is not simply by being there.
Having an unsocialized, potentially fear-aggressive, dog ON leash at the dog park is a recipe for disaster as well. They will feel completely trapped while free-roaming dogs come around to sniff, etc. I agree that she should take him back, but he needs to stay ON-leash, OUTside the fence, to watch.
People should also leave their un-altered dogs at home. Even if the unaltered (usually male) dog is friendly, many neutered males, seem to have what can only be described as "testicle envy". I've seen several sweet, un-neutered male dogs get jumped on at the dog park. I've also seen the hump fest that they bring as well.......not cool, since most spayed females do NOT appreciate being mounted (my old Chessie almost ate the face off of a lab for doing that....)0
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