Try exercising with a gun in your bra
Replies
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I live in a not-so-safe neighborhood, I run in the day through the city where there are always people around. I don't go if it's dark, or getting dark. If I want to go for a run and it's getting dark, I go to the gym and run on the treadmill or the indoor track.
There is also a track at the high school by me that always has people running/walking.
You cannot carry a concealed weapon here, so I just make myself aware of my surroundings and don't put myself in situations where I am alone.0 -
Coming form Australia I love reading these posts! Sounds so funny that you would even be allowed to carry any type of weapon!
What I think is so funny is a 26 year old who has all the answers!
The basic role of police is not proactive, but reactionary. They generally show up after the crime has been committed and document the event.
Crime Stats: World Ranking - Australia VS United States
Assault Victims
Oz - 2.4% Ranked 4th - 100% more than the USA
USA -1.2% Ranked 11th
Rape Victims
Oz -1% - Ranked 5th - 150% more than USA
USA - 0.4% - Ranked 13
Total Crime Victims
Oz - 30.1% - Ranked #1 - 43% more than the USA
USA - 21.1% Ranked 15
Perception of Safety Walking in the dark
Oz - 64% Ranked 14th
USA - 82% Ranked 2nd - 28% more than Oz
http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Australia/United-States/Crime
Murders committed with firearms:
OZ - 59
USA - 9,369
Murders committed by youths:
OZ - 88
USA - 8,226
Think you missed a couple of stats you didn't like out of that slapdown buddy!
2010 Population of Australia: ~22 Million
Murders in Australia in 2010: 260
http://www.aic.gov.au/documents/0/B/6/{0B619F44-B18B-47B4-9B59-F87BA643CBAA}facts11.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Australia#Population
2010 Population of the USA: 309 Million
2010 Murders in the USA: 16,259
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_United_States_Census
So, with 15 times the population, we have 62 times the homicide rate. Is the reason for this the easy acquisition of firearms? Possibly, but what seems more likely is the greater rate of poverty in the US oriented around large urban areas. Why? Because rich people don't usually commit murder. A good control for this is Switzerland.
2009 Population of Switzerland: 7.8 Million
2009 Murders in Switzerland: 84
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Switzerland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Switzerland#Population
So, Switzerland has 35% of the population of Australia, but only 32% of the homocide totals. This is especially perplexing considering that EVERY HOUSEHOLD IN SWITZERLAND HAS A FULLY-AUTOMATIC ASSAULT RIFLE.
The answer seems fairly obvious. Gun Control doesn't prevent murders (the US Murder rate has fallen year over year for the last ~30 years, regardless of the presence/absence of federal level gun control), and homocide rates are a reflection of urbanization and poverty moreso than the prevalence or absence of firearms.0 -
Wow...that's a bit much. I live in one of the most dangerous cities in the US and don't carry weapons. But then again, I've lived here my whole life, so I'm not paranoid like someone may be coming from a small town.
Agreed. I work in Wilmington, DE (Neighborhood Scout named it 17th most dangerous in the US, parenting.com/parenting magazine ranked it MOST dangerous city in the US). I don't think it is that dangerous, but per capita it is bad. Every day there is someone getting shot, stabbed, or robbed, etc. I walk all the time in Wilmington. I'm not a runner. But I also went to college here for a couple years. Walked all over. Never been scared for my safety. I keep my phone on me, just in case someone starts doing something stupid near me, then I'd call the cops and hide somewhere. I'm not interested in being a hero at all. I don't walk down alleys or creepy side streets either. There was this one time a *gasp* homeless-looking man almost touched my shoulder and asked for money or a bus pass or something and I kindly said "I am sorry, I do not", and kept it moving. LOL no offense though. Some folks have seen some crazy crap. I haven't experienced a crazy gun-point robbery or a rape or anything. I've seen plenty of folks with weapons they shouldn't have, drugs they shouldn't have, bullet wounds they got as an innocent bystander, and I've witnessed a couple shoot-outs, was almost raped but screamed, like I was taught, and he backed off quick. My choice is not to add to the gun shops & medical sectors profits and the empty shell-casings on the ground around here. There are better ways to solve the madness in my opinion. Not everyone shares that opinion though, and that is OK.
I guess it is really about people perspectives, experiences, and biases. I completely understand though if the OP's hubby is ex-military or police. Completely understand then. They see things that no one should see or experience.
Don't put yourself in a scary position and nothing scary will happen. It seems easy to me. If you don't like your neighborhood, drive a little ways to a park or a nicer neighborhood. I'm sure the West Coast has parks... Just a suggestions as opposed to packing a gun, taser, and a knife. You can't use all that in an instant if someone pops out on you... And if you did, they would be stunned on the ground, then..... stabbed by you, and then...shot? I don't get it. One weapon seems to be enough IMO.
Um, People get robbed/beaten/raped in "non-scary" settings too. Not all violence occurs in shady allys. Your lucky you stopped a potential rape by yelling.0 -
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Lol it's not locked though?0
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Coming form Australia I love reading these posts! Sounds so funny that you would even be allowed to carry any type of weapon!
What I think is so funny is a 26 year old who has all the answers!
The basic role of police is not proactive, but reactionary. They generally show up after the crime has been committed and document the event.
Crime Stats: World Ranking - Australia VS United States
Assault Victims
Oz - 2.4% Ranked 4th - 100% more than the USA
USA -1.2% Ranked 11th
Rape Victims
Oz -1% - Ranked 5th - 150% more than USA
USA - 0.4% - Ranked 13
Total Crime Victims
Oz - 30.1% - Ranked #1 - 43% more than the USA
USA - 21.1% Ranked 15
Perception of Safety Walking in the dark
Oz - 64% Ranked 14th
USA - 82% Ranked 2nd - 28% more than Oz
http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Australia/United-States/Crime
Murders committed with firearms:
OZ - 59
USA - 9,369
Murders committed by youths:
OZ - 88
USA - 8,226
Think you missed a couple of stats you didn't like out of that slapdown buddy!
The bottom line is that Americans are willing to tolerate more deaths for less crime and more freedom to own firearms. Newtown and similar incidents are the price we pay for the right to bear arms, and judging by the response of Congress people consider that it's worth it. Silly or not, it is what it is.0 -
Coming form Australia I love reading these posts! Sounds so funny that you would even be allowed to carry any type of weapon!
What I think is so funny is a 26 year old who has all the answers!
The basic role of police is not proactive, but reactionary. They generally show up after the crime has been committed and document the event.
Crime Stats: World Ranking - Australia VS United States
Assault Victims
Oz - 2.4% Ranked 4th - 100% more than the USA
USA -1.2% Ranked 11th
Rape Victims
Oz -1% - Ranked 5th - 150% more than USA
USA - 0.4% - Ranked 13
Total Crime Victims
Oz - 30.1% - Ranked #1 - 43% more than the USA
USA - 21.1% Ranked 15
Perception of Safety Walking in the dark
Oz - 64% Ranked 14th
USA - 82% Ranked 2nd - 28% more than Oz
http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Australia/United-States/Crime
Murders committed with firearms:
OZ - 59
USA - 9,369
Murders committed by youths:
OZ - 88
USA - 8,226
Think you missed a couple of stats you didn't like out of that slapdown buddy!
2010 Population of Australia: ~22 Million
Murders in Australia in 2010: 260
http://www.aic.gov.au/documents/0/B/6/{0B619F44-B18B-47B4-9B59-F87BA643CBAA}facts11.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Australia#Population
2010 Population of the USA: 309 Million
2010 Murders in the USA: 16,259
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_United_States_Census
So, with 15 times the population, we have 62 times the homicide rate. Is the reason for this the easy acquisition of firearms? Possibly, but what seems more likely is the greater rate of poverty in the US oriented around large urban areas. Why? Because rich people don't usually commit murder. A good control for this is Switzerland.
2009 Population of Switzerland: 7.8 Million
2009 Murders in Switzerland: 84
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Switzerland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Switzerland#Population
So, Switzerland has 35% of the population of Australia, but only 32% of the homocide totals. This is especially perplexing considering that EVERY HOUSEHOLD IN SWITZERLAND HAS A FULLY-AUTOMATIC ASSAULT RIFLE.
The answer seems fairly obvious. Gun Control doesn't prevent murders (the US Murder rate has fallen year over year for the last ~30 years, regardless of the presence/absence of federal level gun control), and homocide rates are a reflection of urbanization and poverty moreso than the prevalence or absence of firearms.
canadian here, anti-gun, but this is a rational argument. it is true that not just poverty, but *relative poverty*, i.e., inequity, i.e., the unequal distribution of wealth, is the root cause of your problem.
but i think you'll have more luck banning guns than talking about that. (i.e., pigs will fly first)
OP: i think you guys should just move back to your old town, so your husband can relax and feel at home.0 -
Crime rate has dropped in states that have passed conceal carry. Also, somewhere around 60% of prison inmates have admitted to calling off a mugging because of fear that the "targeted victim" may be carrying.0
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Crime rate has dropped in states that have passed conceal carry. Also, somewhere around 60% of prison inmates have admitted to calling off a mugging because of fear that the "targeted victim" may be carrying.
oh great, an escalating arms race driven by fear, yes, that is a beautiful vision for society.0 -
Has anyone brushed on the fact that if someone was intent on attacking you whilst you were jogging/had your earbuds in etc, you wouldn't have time to get your gun anyway - even if you *could* draw it in however many seconds, that is seconds *after* you knew you had to.
People who give you time to react are probably opportunists anyway.0 -
Coming form Australia I love reading these posts! Sounds so funny that you would even be allowed to carry any type of weapon!
What I think is so funny is a 26 year old who has all the answers!
The basic role of police is not proactive, but reactionary. They generally show up after the crime has been committed and document the event.
Crime Stats: World Ranking - Australia VS United States
Assault Victims
Oz - 2.4% Ranked 4th - 100% more than the USA
USA -1.2% Ranked 11th
Rape Victims
Oz -1% - Ranked 5th - 150% more than USA
USA - 0.4% - Ranked 13
Total Crime Victims
Oz - 30.1% - Ranked #1 - 43% more than the USA
USA - 21.1% Ranked 15
Perception of Safety Walking in the dark
Oz - 64% Ranked 14th
USA - 82% Ranked 2nd - 28% more than Oz
http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Australia/United-States/Crime
Murders committed with firearms:
OZ - 59
USA - 9,369
Murders committed by youths:
OZ - 88
USA - 8,226
Think you missed a couple of stats you didn't like out of that slapdown buddy!
2010 Population of Australia: ~22 Million
Murders in Australia in 2010: 260
http://www.aic.gov.au/documents/0/B/6/{0B619F44-B18B-47B4-9B59-F87BA643CBAA}facts11.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Australia#Population
2010 Population of the USA: 309 Million
2010 Murders in the USA: 16,259
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_United_States_Census
So, with 15 times the population, we have 62 times the homicide rate. Is the reason for this the easy acquisition of firearms? Possibly, but what seems more likely is the greater rate of poverty in the US oriented around large urban areas. Why? Because rich people don't usually commit murder. A good control for this is Switzerland.
2009 Population of Switzerland: 7.8 Million
2009 Murders in Switzerland: 84
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Switzerland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Switzerland#Population
So, Switzerland has 35% of the population of Australia, but only 32% of the homocide totals. This is especially perplexing considering that EVERY HOUSEHOLD IN SWITZERLAND HAS A FULLY-AUTOMATIC ASSAULT RIFLE.
The answer seems fairly obvious. Gun Control doesn't prevent murders (the US Murder rate has fallen year over year for the last ~30 years, regardless of the presence/absence of federal level gun control), and homocide rates are a reflection of urbanization and poverty moreso than the prevalence or absence of firearms.
canadian here, anti-gun, but this is a rational argument. it is true that not just poverty, but *relative poverty*, i.e., inequity, i.e., the unequal distribution of wealth, is the root cause of your problem.
but i think you'll have more luck banning guns than talking about that. (i.e., pigs will fly first)
OP: i think you guys should just move back to your old town, so your husband can relax and feel at home.
I'm surprised anybody bothered to address the initial statistics anyway.
Assault victims - this is the easiest to attempt to draw some link with carrying firearms, but at best it is shaky. What about domestic assaults for example?
Rape victims: the majority of rapes are carried out by people that knew the attacker - this will mean that they are far less likely to draw a gun, therefore those stats are pretty pointless.
Total crime victims - how anybody can draw any kind of link with carrying firearms is baffling. Total crime includes things like, say internet fraud, driving infringements etc....
Fear of crime: Has more to do with the media than anything else. Fear of crime seems to be rising across the board in Europe/America/Aus/Canada etc, whilst in most of these places, crime is dropping.
To use the O'Brian analogy - fear of zombies is quite high, whilst actual attacks by zombies are at an all-time low.0 -
Crime rate has dropped in states that have passed conceal carry. Also, somewhere around 60% of prison inmates have admitted to calling off a mugging because of fear that the "targeted victim" may be carrying.
oh great, an escalating arms race driven by fear, yes, that is a beautiful vision for society.
Beats the heck out of being a victim, wouldnt you agree?0 -
Coming form Australia I love reading these posts! Sounds so funny that you would even be allowed to carry any type of weapon!
What I think is so funny is a 26 year old who has all the answers!
The basic role of police is not proactive, but reactionary. They generally show up after the crime has been committed and document the event.
Crime Stats: World Ranking - Australia VS United States
Assault Victims
Oz - 2.4% Ranked 4th - 100% more than the USA
USA -1.2% Ranked 11th
Rape Victims
Oz -1% - Ranked 5th - 150% more than USA
USA - 0.4% - Ranked 13
Total Crime Victims
Oz - 30.1% - Ranked #1 - 43% more than the USA
USA - 21.1% Ranked 15
Perception of Safety Walking in the dark
Oz - 64% Ranked 14th
USA - 82% Ranked 2nd - 28% more than Oz
http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Australia/United-States/Crime
Murders committed with firearms:
OZ - 59
USA - 9,369
Murders committed by youths:
OZ - 88
USA - 8,226
Think you missed a couple of stats you didn't like out of that slapdown buddy!
2010 Population of Australia: ~22 Million
Murders in Australia in 2010: 260
http://www.aic.gov.au/documents/0/B/6/{0B619F44-B18B-47B4-9B59-F87BA643CBAA}facts11.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Australia#Population
2010 Population of the USA: 309 Million
2010 Murders in the USA: 16,259
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_United_States_Census
So, with 15 times the population, we have 62 times the homicide rate. Is the reason for this the easy acquisition of firearms? Possibly, but what seems more likely is the greater rate of poverty in the US oriented around large urban areas. Why? Because rich people don't usually commit murder. A good control for this is Switzerland.
2009 Population of Switzerland: 7.8 Million
2009 Murders in Switzerland: 84
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Switzerland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Switzerland#Population
So, Switzerland has 35% of the population of Australia, but only 32% of the homocide totals. This is especially perplexing considering that EVERY HOUSEHOLD IN SWITZERLAND HAS A FULLY-AUTOMATIC ASSAULT RIFLE.
The answer seems fairly obvious. Gun Control doesn't prevent murders (the US Murder rate has fallen year over year for the last ~30 years, regardless of the presence/absence of federal level gun control), and homocide rates are a reflection of urbanization and poverty moreso than the prevalence or absence of firearms.
canadian here, anti-gun, but this is a rational argument. it is true that not just poverty, but *relative poverty*, i.e., inequity, i.e., the unequal distribution of wealth, is the root cause of your problem.
but i think you'll have more luck banning guns than talking about that. (i.e., pigs will fly first)
OP: i think you guys should just move back to your old town, so your husband can relax and feel at home.
I'm surprised anybody bothered to address the initial statistics anyway.
Assault victims - this is the easiest to attempt to draw some link with carrying firearms, but at best it is shaky. What about domestic assaults for example?
Rape victims: the majority of rapes are carried out by people that knew the attacker - this will mean that they are far less likely to draw a gun, therefore those stats are pretty pointless.
Total crime victims - how anybody can draw any kind of link with carrying firearms is baffling. Total crime includes things like, say internet fraud, driving infringements etc....
Fear of crime: Has more to do with the media than anything else. Fear of crime seems to be rising across the board in Europe/America/Aus/Canada etc, whilst in most of these places, crime is dropping.
To use the O'Brian analogy - fear of zombies is quite high, whilst actual attacks by zombies are at an all-time low.
Youre speculating, but does domestic assaults make it somehow better? Knowing your rapist somehow more pleasant? Come on, these arguments are invalid.
The fact remains. Defensive weapons level the playing field as it makes the 5', 100 lb every bit equal to the 6', 200 lb "acquaintance".0 -
Crime rate has dropped in states that have passed conceal carry. Also, somewhere around 60% of prison inmates have admitted to calling off a mugging because of fear that the "targeted victim" may be carrying.
oh great, an escalating arms race driven by fear, yes, that is a beautiful vision for society.
Beats the heck out of being a victim, wouldnt you agree?
I'll add that the arms race comment is not even close to the reality here. I live in Florida and grew up with firearms. They are just something I grew up knowing how to handle and use, and honestly not something I spend a lot of time focusing on. They are a tool used for specific purposes, and yes criminals will use them for violence but I'm not going to disarm myself in the hopes that criminals will follow suit and obey the law. Is there a big chance of ever using one? Not really. My wife used one to defend herself once, but I doubt it will ever happen again. Of course I've never used my fire insurance or life insurance, but I'm not canceling those either.
For those of you from Oz, the UK and Canada that don't understand, well you just don't understand, and values are not something that can be easily explained. Perhaps like the UK's focus on class. I just don't get why some people truly feel that they are entitled to be treated better than everyone else. And no, I will never understand that, and yet I've seen it first hand working with upper class solicitors from the UK. They are some of the most self entitled and, frankly, often racist people I've ever met. I don't bother to try and understand them because I have so little in common with them. It just is the way it is. Americans, for the most part, value our diverse and multi-racial society. It's been a long time coming in moving from our written ideals to seeing them slowly realized, and we certainly have room to improve, but I'm honestly amused by a person from a country that still respects a monarch giving us grief about our values. As much as I like to give the French good natured grief, at least they had the good sense to rid themselves of that garbage.
But I digress. Our values differ. Oh well.0 -
Where do you live Compton?
0 -
I'm surprised anybody bothered to address the initial statistics anyway.
Assault victims - this is the easiest to attempt to draw some link with carrying firearms, but at best it is shaky. What about domestic assaults for example?
Rape victims: the majority of rapes are carried out by people that knew the attacker - this will mean that they are far less likely to draw a gun, therefore those stats are pretty pointless.
Total crime victims - how anybody can draw any kind of link with carrying firearms is baffling. Total crime includes things like, say internet fraud, driving infringements etc....
Fear of crime: Has more to do with the media than anything else. Fear of crime seems to be rising across the board in Europe/America/Aus/Canada etc, whilst in most of these places, crime is dropping.
To use the O'Brian analogy - fear of zombies is quite high, whilst actual attacks by zombies are at an all-time low.
Youre speculating, but does domestic assaults make it somehow better? Knowing your rapist somehow more pleasant? Come on, these arguments are invalid.
The fact remains. Defensive weapons level the playing field as it makes the 5', 100 lb every bit equal to the 6', 200 lb "acquaintance".
Domestic assaults don't make it better, but I would wager one is far less likely to use a firearm in those situations, unless you wander round the house with your gun to hand.
Knowing your rapist means, again that you are far less likely to be in a position to use a gun.
My point was, that the ability to carry a gun does little to deter either of these attacks, because most are not of the 'random violent stranger' type, whereas the underlying assertion in your satistics was that carrying a gun might make deter these kind of attacks. For the most part, it will have no effect.0 -
Crime rate has dropped in states that have passed conceal carry. Also, somewhere around 60% of prison inmates have admitted to calling off a mugging because of fear that the "targeted victim" may be carrying.
oh great, an escalating arms race driven by fear, yes, that is a beautiful vision for society.
Beats the heck out of being a victim, wouldnt you agree?
I'm not at all convinced it's an either/or thing. A third option involves investing in civil society, building trust, and addressing inequalities. And it's not just up to leaders to do that, anyone can do a bit to make his or her community better. Schools & young people are a good place to start.0 -
Crime rate has dropped in states that have passed conceal carry. Also, somewhere around 60% of prison inmates have admitted to calling off a mugging because of fear that the "targeted victim" may be carrying.
oh great, an escalating arms race driven by fear, yes, that is a beautiful vision for society.
Beats the heck out of being a victim, wouldnt you agree?
I'll add that the arms race comment is not even close to the reality here. I live in Florida and grew up with firearms. They are just something I grew up knowing how to handle and use, and honestly not something I spend a lot of time focusing on. They are a tool used for specific purposes, and yes criminals will use them for violence but I'm not going to disarm myself in the hopes that criminals will follow suit and obey the law. Is there a big chance of ever using one? Not really. My wife used one to defend herself once, but I doubt it will ever happen again. Of course I've never used my fire insurance or life insurance, but I'm not canceling those either.
For those of you from Oz, the UK and Canada that don't understand, well you just don't understand, and values are not something that can be easily explained. Perhaps like the UK's focus on class. I just don't get why some people truly feel that they are entitled to be treated better than everyone else. And no, I will never understand that, and yet I've seen it first hand working with upper class solicitors from the UK. They are some of the most self entitled and, frankly, often racist people I've ever met. I don't bother to try and understand them because I have so little in common with them. It just is the way it is. Americans, for the most part, value our diverse and multi-racial society. It's been a long time coming in moving from our written ideals to seeing them slowly realized, and we certainly have room to improve, but I'm honestly amused by a person from a country that still respects a monarch giving us grief about our values. As much as I like to give the French good natured grief, at least they had the good sense to rid themselves of that garbage.
But I digress. Our values differ. Oh well.
there's a massive class system in the US too, it's just taboo to talk about it, and invisible to most, because everyone really wants to believe it's a meritocracy and that pulling yourself up by the bootstraps is the way to access social goods (it isn't, it's class, networks, etc). poor people in the US know this. they're angry and scared, too. hence guns.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0ehzfQ4hAQ
edit: also, ad hominem attacks, really not impressive0 -
Crime rate has dropped in states that have passed conceal carry. Also, somewhere around 60% of prison inmates have admitted to calling off a mugging because of fear that the "targeted victim" may be carrying.
oh great, an escalating arms race driven by fear, yes, that is a beautiful vision for society.
Beats the heck out of being a victim, wouldnt you agree?
I'll add that the arms race comment is not even close to the reality here. I live in Florida and grew up with firearms. They are just something I grew up knowing how to handle and use, and honestly not something I spend a lot of time focusing on. They are a tool used for specific purposes, and yes criminals will use them for violence but I'm not going to disarm myself in the hopes that criminals will follow suit and obey the law. Is there a big chance of ever using one? Not really. My wife used one to defend herself once, but I doubt it will ever happen again. Of course I've never used my fire insurance or life insurance, but I'm not canceling those either.
For those of you from Oz, the UK and Canada that don't understand, well you just don't understand, and values are not something that can be easily explained. Perhaps like the UK's focus on class. I just don't get why some people truly feel that they are entitled to be treated better than everyone else. And no, I will never understand that, and yet I've seen it first hand working with upper class solicitors from the UK. They are some of the most self entitled and, frankly, often racist people I've ever met. I don't bother to try and understand them because I have so little in common with them. It just is the way it is. Americans, for the most part, value our diverse and multi-racial society. It's been a long time coming in moving from our written ideals to seeing them slowly realized, and we certainly have room to improve, but I'm honestly amused by a person from a country that still respects a monarch giving us grief about our values. As much as I like to give the French good natured grief, at least they had the good sense to rid themselves of that garbage.
But I digress. Our values differ. Oh well.
there's a massive class system in the US too, it's just taboo to talk about it, and invisible to most, because everyone really wants to believe it's a meritocracy and that pulling yourself up by the bootstraps is the way to access social goods (it isn't, it's class, networks, etc). poor people in the US know this. they're angry and scared, too. hence guns.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0ehzfQ4hAQ
That is an interesting red herring and I see you use them regularly in your attempts to persuade. I do not find them helpful or productive. You also missed my point. The argument that guns are a product of anger and fear are typical of the Northeastern academic set who are intent on proving their own superiority and seem to desire to be part of a special class that they themselves are out to create. I am originally from Florida, and very well educated, have lived abroad for a number of years, have made rather good money, and am certainly not angry and scared. Nice try though at painting all firearms owners with a very broad and negative brush.0 -
there's a massive class system in the US too, it's just taboo to talk about it, and invisible to most, because everyone really wants to believe it's a meritocracy and that pulling yourself up by the bootstraps is the way to access social goods (it isn't, it's class, networks, etc). poor people in the US know this. they're angry and scared, too. hence guns.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0ehzfQ4hAQ
edit: also, ad hominem attacks, really not impressive
There is a 'class system' everywhere - the only difference is that in the US you really don't have the vestiges of the feudal upper classes like you do in the UK. But, as long as you have those who own the means of production and those who don't, then you will have a class system (when the state owns the means of production, you still have a class system, it is just based around other things than that).0 -
That is an interesting red herring and I see you use them regularly in your attempts to persuade. I do not find them helpful or productive. You also missed my point. The argument that guns are a product of anger and fear are typical of the Northeastern academic set who are intent on proving their own superiority and seem to desire to be part of a special class that they themselves are out to create. I am originally from Florida, and very well educated, have lived abroad for a number of years, have made rather good money, and am certainly not angry and scared. Nice try though at painting all firearms owners with a very broad and negative brush.
That really isn't the point. Nice strawman.0 -
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from a country that still respects a monarch giving us grief about our values
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No one I know does....... the right wing Conservative Govt is big on it though. And by Right wing I mean that you would call them commies
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Crime rate has dropped in states that have passed conceal carry. Also, somewhere around 60% of prison inmates have admitted to calling off a mugging because of fear that the "targeted victim" may be carrying.
oh great, an escalating arms race driven by fear, yes, that is a beautiful vision for society.
Beats the heck out of being a victim, wouldnt you agree?
I'll add that the arms race comment is not even close to the reality here. I live in Florida and grew up with firearms. They are just something I grew up knowing how to handle and use, and honestly not something I spend a lot of time focusing on. They are a tool used for specific purposes, and yes criminals will use them for violence but I'm not going to disarm myself in the hopes that criminals will follow suit and obey the law. Is there a big chance of ever using one? Not really. My wife used one to defend herself once, but I doubt it will ever happen again. Of course I've never used my fire insurance or life insurance, but I'm not canceling those either.
For those of you from Oz, the UK and Canada that don't understand, well you just don't understand, and values are not something that can be easily explained. Perhaps like the UK's focus on class. I just don't get why some people truly feel that they are entitled to be treated better than everyone else. And no, I will never understand that, and yet I've seen it first hand working with upper class solicitors from the UK. They are some of the most self entitled and, frankly, often racist people I've ever met. I don't bother to try and understand them because I have so little in common with them. It just is the way it is. Americans, for the most part, value our diverse and multi-racial society. It's been a long time coming in moving from our written ideals to seeing them slowly realized, and we certainly have room to improve, but I'm honestly amused by a person from a country that still respects a monarch giving us grief about our values. As much as I like to give the French good natured grief, at least they had the good sense to rid themselves of that garbage.
But I digress. Our values differ. Oh well.
there's a massive class system in the US too, it's just taboo to talk about it, and invisible to most, because everyone really wants to believe it's a meritocracy and that pulling yourself up by the bootstraps is the way to access social goods (it isn't, it's class, networks, etc). poor people in the US know this. they're angry and scared, too. hence guns.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0ehzfQ4hAQ
That is an interesting red herring and I see you use them regularly in your attempts to persuade. I do not find them helpful or productive. You also missed my point. The argument that guns are a product of anger and fear are typical of the Northeastern academic set who are intent on proving their own superiority and seem to desire to be part of a special class that they themselves are out to create. I am originally from Florida, and very well educated, have lived abroad for a number of years, have made rather good money, and am certainly not angry and scared. Nice try though at painting all firearms owners with a very broad and negative brush.
what red herring? it's a standard analysis. & again you've gone for the ad hominem.
i didn't say *all* firearm owners were angry & scared, just pointed to a (generally accepted) pattern. mind your modus tollens and ponens 0 -
there's a massive class system in the US too, it's just taboo to talk about it, and invisible to most, because everyone really wants to believe it's a meritocracy and that pulling yourself up by the bootstraps is the way to access social goods (it isn't, it's class, networks, etc). poor people in the US know this. they're angry and scared, too. hence guns.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0ehzfQ4hAQ
edit: also, ad hominem attacks, really not impressive
There is a 'class system' everywhere - the only difference is that in the US you really don't have the vestiges of the feudal upper classes like you do in the UK. But, as long as you have those who own the means of production and those who don't, then you will have a class system (when the state owns the means of production, you still have a class system, it is just based around other things than that).
yup yup, brother not-in-arms0 -
That is an interesting red herring and I see you use them regularly in your attempts to persuade. I do not find them helpful or productive. You also missed my point. The argument that guns are a product of anger and fear are typical of the Northeastern academic set who are intent on proving their own superiority and seem to desire to be part of a special class that they themselves are out to create. I am originally from Florida, and very well educated, have lived abroad for a number of years, have made rather good money, and am certainly not angry and scared. Nice try though at painting all firearms owners with a very broad and negative brush.
That really isn't the point. Nice strawman.
Please elaborate if you are going to argue these points. She used a red herring and I called her on it. There are intelligent points to be made on both sides of the debate but I'm seeing way too much in terms of moral superiority and outright labeling of gun owners in the above which I find offensive.
As for the statistical arguments, I've read extensively on this subject and did quite a bit of work on it during law school. Most of the studies on the subject are skewed one way or the other and that makes for some frustration. I personally have no desire to get too deep into this argument because I'm bored with it. My only request is keep the argument on point. And while I disagree with you, your stats arguments were at least a good example of fair argumentation. The above was not.0 -
Not trying to troll anyone here. I was not raised in a gun culture or in a paranoid one. I do not live in the boondocks I live and always lived in a city of over 1 million people ( and for years lots more than that) and I have NEVER felt unsafe.
Even if carrying handguns was legal here I would never think of doing so, especially not to work out. I run by myself every week. I go hiking in the woods by myself every week and the only thing I take with me is my cell phone.
I am in the process of moving to the US, my husband is American, and I am really wondering if the problem is that the country itself is completely unsafe or is everyone thinking it's normal to carry a gun every day ( and especially when running!) because there's a paranoid mentality going on that you were all raised with?
I'm trying to understand it.0 -
That is an interesting red herring and I see you use them regularly in your attempts to persuade. I do not find them helpful or productive. You also missed my point. The argument that guns are a product of anger and fear are typical of the Northeastern academic set who are intent on proving their own superiority and seem to desire to be part of a special class that they themselves are out to create. I am originally from Florida, and very well educated, have lived abroad for a number of years, have made rather good money, and am certainly not angry and scared. Nice try though at painting all firearms owners with a very broad and negative brush.
That really isn't the point. Nice strawman.
Please elaborate if you are going to argue these points. She used a red herring and I called her on it. There are intelligent points to be made on both sides of the debate but I'm seeing way too much in terms of moral superiority and outright labeling of gun owners in the above which I find offensive.
As for the statistical arguments, I've read extensively on this subject and did quite a bit of work on it during law school. Most of the studies on the subject are skewed one way or the other and that makes for some interesting arguments. I personally have no desire to get too deep into this argument because I'm bored with it. My only request is keep the argument on point. And while I disagree with you, your stats arguments were at least a good example of fair argumentation. The above was not.
um, would it please the court for you to point this herring out? you just don't like the argument, is all.
i'm not fussed about convincing you, there is research to support the position i've stated. but this is an online board, and i'm not about to spend my sunday digging up citations.0 -
Not trying to troll anyone here. I was not raised in a gun culture or in a paranoid one. I do not live in the boondocks I live and always lived in a city of over 1 million people ( and for years lots more than that) and I have NEVER felt unsafe.
Even if carrying handguns was legal here I would never think of doing so, especially not to work out. I run by myself every week. I go hiking in the woods by myself every week and the only thing I take with me is my cell phone.
I am in the process of moving to the US, my husband is American, and I am really wondering if the problem is that the country itself is completely unsafe or is everyone thinking it's normal to carry a gun every day ( and especially when running!) because there's a paranoid mentality going on that you were all raised with?
I'm trying to understand it.
Please do some searches for "running safety" on here. You will find quite a number of threads by women in the U.K. who are scared to run because they are regularly verbally assaulted by men and are truly afraid of being raped. Is it fair to assume that the U.K. is awash with women being assaulted when they run? I'm guessing no. You will likely find the U.S. to be a very safe place to live if you are not living in a poor and crime ridden neighborhood. We were not all raised with a "paranoid mentality" anymore than the all people in the U.K. are paranoid.0 -
That is an interesting red herring and I see you use them regularly in your attempts to persuade. I do not find them helpful or productive. You also missed my point. The argument that guns are a product of anger and fear are typical of the Northeastern academic set who are intent on proving their own superiority and seem to desire to be part of a special class that they themselves are out to create. I am originally from Florida, and very well educated, have lived abroad for a number of years, have made rather good money, and am certainly not angry and scared. Nice try though at painting all firearms owners with a very broad and negative brush.
That really isn't the point. Nice strawman.
Please elaborate if you are going to argue these points. She used a red herring and I called her on it. There are intelligent points to be made on both sides of the debate but I'm seeing way too much in terms of moral superiority and outright labeling of gun owners in the above which I find offensive.
As for the statistical arguments, I've read extensively on this subject and did quite a bit of work on it during law school. Most of the studies on the subject are skewed one way or the other and that makes for some frustration. I personally have no desire to get too deep into this argument because I'm bored with it. My only request is keep the argument on point. And while I disagree with you, your stats arguments were at least a good example of fair argumentation. The above was not.
The point is; that by saying that *you* dont fall into the category of being either part of the underclass or scared, you infer that the whole argument is invalid. It isn't - you have created (in this case made yourself into) a strawman to whom the trend does not apply. One person does not a trend make.
For what its worth, I live in the UK and I own legally-held firearms. So; I'm hardly what you would call anti-gun. However, I find the notion that one would be better protected by carrying a pistol in ones brassiere misguided to say the very least.0 -
Not trying to troll anyone here. I was not raised in a gun culture or in a paranoid one. I do not live in the boondocks I live and always lived in a city of over 1 million people ( and for years lots more than that) and I have NEVER felt unsafe.
Even if carrying handguns was legal here I would never think of doing so, especially not to work out. I run by myself every week. I go hiking in the woods by myself every week and the only thing I take with me is my cell phone.
I am in the process of moving to the US, my husband is American, and I am really wondering if the problem is that the country itself is completely unsafe or is everyone thinking it's normal to carry a gun every day ( and especially when running!) because there's a paranoid mentality going on that you were all raised with?
I'm trying to understand it.
Please do some searches for "running safety" on here. You will find quite a number of threads by women in the U.K. who are scared to run because they are regularly verbally assaulted by men and are truly afraid of being raped. Is it fair to assume that the U.K. is awash with women being assaulted when they run? I'm guessing no. You will likely find the U.S. to be a very safe place to live if you are not living in a poor and crime ridden neighborhood. We were not all raised with a "paranoid mentality" anymore than the all people in the U.K. are paranoid.
First thing First.: Not in the UK.
Let me change "paranoid" to having been raised in a culture of fear, it doesn't sound as negative. We have big cities here and some with gangs and high crime rates but people are not walking around every day fearing for their safety. Why are Americans so scared? That's what I'm trying to understand. How do you go through life fearing that someone will attack you EVERY day? I don't want my children to develop that fear.
I mean it's intelligence 101 not go walk alone or run alone in "bad neighbourhoods" and even if I could carry a gun or a knife or pepper spray I would not pull it on someone verbally assaulting me. What happened to ignoring idiots or telling them off?
I can honestly say that the thing that scares me the most about moving is having to live with people carrying guns on them, that's a lot more terrifying to me than the chance that I might fall victim to a criminal. ( But I'm moving to NE so I have better chance of getting lost in a cornfield than murdered)0
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