Try exercising with a gun in your bra

SteveJWatson

That is an interesting red herring and I see you use them regularly in your attempts to persuade. I do not find them helpful or productive. You also missed my point. The argument that guns are a product of anger and fear are typical of the Northeastern academic set who are intent on proving their own superiority and seem to desire to be part of a special class that they themselves are out to create. I am originally from Florida, and very well educated, have lived abroad for a number of years, have made rather good money, and am certainly not angry and scared. Nice try though at painting all firearms owners with a very broad and negative brush.

That really isn't the point. Nice strawman.

Wetcoaster

[/quote]



from a country that still respects a monarch giving us grief about our values
[/quote]

No one I know does....... the right wing Conservative Govt is big on it though. And by Right wing I mean that you would call them commies

anemoneprose

Crime rate has dropped in states that have passed conceal carry. Also, somewhere around 60% of prison inmates have admitted to calling off a mugging because of fear that the "targeted victim" may be carrying.

oh great, an escalating arms race driven by fear, yes, that is a beautiful vision for society.

Beats the heck out of being a victim, wouldnt you agree?

I'll add that the arms race comment is not even close to the reality here. I live in Florida and grew up with firearms. They are just something I grew up knowing how to handle and use, and honestly not something I spend a lot of time focusing on. They are a tool used for specific purposes, and yes criminals will use them for violence but I'm not going to disarm myself in the hopes that criminals will follow suit and obey the law. Is there a big chance of ever using one? Not really. My wife used one to defend herself once, but I doubt it will ever happen again. Of course I've never used my fire insurance or life insurance, but I'm not canceling those either.

For those of you from Oz, the UK and Canada that don't understand, well you just don't understand, and values are not something that can be easily explained. Perhaps like the UK's focus on class. I just don't get why some people truly feel that they are entitled to be treated better than everyone else. And no, I will never understand that, and yet I've seen it first hand working with upper class solicitors from the UK. They are some of the most self entitled and, frankly, often racist people I've ever met. I don't bother to try and understand them because I have so little in common with them. It just is the way it is. Americans, for the most part, value our diverse and multi-racial society. It's been a long time coming in moving from our written ideals to seeing them slowly realized, and we certainly have room to improve, but I'm honestly amused by a person from a country that still respects a monarch giving us grief about our values. As much as I like to give the French good natured grief, at least they had the good sense to rid themselves of that garbage.

But I digress. Our values differ. Oh well.

there's a massive class system in the US too, it's just taboo to talk about it, and invisible to most, because everyone really wants to believe it's a meritocracy and that pulling yourself up by the bootstraps is the way to access social goods (it isn't, it's class, networks, etc). poor people in the US know this. they're angry and scared, too. hence guns.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0ehzfQ4hAQ

That is an interesting red herring and I see you use them regularly in your attempts to persuade. I do not find them helpful or productive. You also missed my point. The argument that guns are a product of anger and fear are typical of the Northeastern academic set who are intent on proving their own superiority and seem to desire to be part of a special class that they themselves are out to create. I am originally from Florida, and very well educated, have lived abroad for a number of years, have made rather good money, and am certainly not angry and scared. Nice try though at painting all firearms owners with a very broad and negative brush.

what red herring? it's a standard analysis. & again you've gone for the ad hominem.

i didn't say *all* firearm owners were angry & scared, just pointed to a (generally accepted) pattern. mind your modus tollens and ponens

anemoneprose

there's a massive class system in the US too, it's just taboo to talk about it, and invisible to most, because everyone really wants to believe it's a meritocracy and that pulling yourself up by the bootstraps is the way to access social goods (it isn't, it's class, networks, etc). poor people in the US know this. they're angry and scared, too. hence guns.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0ehzfQ4hAQ

edit: also, ad hominem attacks, really not impressive

There is a 'class system' everywhere - the only difference is that in the US you really don't have the vestiges of the feudal upper classes like you do in the UK. But, as long as you have those who own the means of production and those who don't, then you will have a class system (when the state owns the means of production, you still have a class system, it is just based around other things than that).

yup yup, brother not-in-arms

BeachIron

That is an interesting red herring and I see you use them regularly in your attempts to persuade. I do not find them helpful or productive. You also missed my point. The argument that guns are a product of anger and fear are typical of the Northeastern academic set who are intent on proving their own superiority and seem to desire to be part of a special class that they themselves are out to create. I am originally from Florida, and very well educated, have lived abroad for a number of years, have made rather good money, and am certainly not angry and scared. Nice try though at painting all firearms owners with a very broad and negative brush.

That really isn't the point. Nice strawman.

Please elaborate if you are going to argue these points. She used a red herring and I called her on it. There are intelligent points to be made on both sides of the debate but I'm seeing way too much in terms of moral superiority and outright labeling of gun owners in the above which I find offensive.

As for the statistical arguments, I've read extensively on this subject and did quite a bit of work on it during law school. Most of the studies on the subject are skewed one way or the other and that makes for some frustration. I personally have no desire to get too deep into this argument because I'm bored with it. My only request is keep the argument on point. And while I disagree with you, your stats arguments were at least a good example of fair argumentation. The above was not.

WDEvy

Not trying to troll anyone here. I was not raised in a gun culture or in a paranoid one. I do not live in the boondocks I live and always lived in a city of over 1 million people ( and for years lots more than that) and I have NEVER felt unsafe.

Even if carrying handguns was legal here I would never think of doing so, especially not to work out. I run by myself every week. I go hiking in the woods by myself every week and the only thing I take with me is my cell phone.

I am in the process of moving to the US, my husband is American, and I am really wondering if the problem is that the country itself is completely unsafe or is everyone thinking it's normal to carry a gun every day ( and especially when running!) because there's a paranoid mentality going on that you were all raised with?

I'm trying to understand it.

anemoneprose

That is an interesting red herring and I see you use them regularly in your attempts to persuade. I do not find them helpful or productive. You also missed my point. The argument that guns are a product of anger and fear are typical of the Northeastern academic set who are intent on proving their own superiority and seem to desire to be part of a special class that they themselves are out to create. I am originally from Florida, and very well educated, have lived abroad for a number of years, have made rather good money, and am certainly not angry and scared. Nice try though at painting all firearms owners with a very broad and negative brush.

That really isn't the point. Nice strawman.

Please elaborate if you are going to argue these points. She used a red herring and I called her on it. There are intelligent points to be made on both sides of the debate but I'm seeing way too much in terms of moral superiority and outright labeling of gun owners in the above which I find offensive.

As for the statistical arguments, I've read extensively on this subject and did quite a bit of work on it during law school. Most of the studies on the subject are skewed one way or the other and that makes for some interesting arguments. I personally have no desire to get too deep into this argument because I'm bored with it. My only request is keep the argument on point. And while I disagree with you, your stats arguments were at least a good example of fair argumentation. The above was not.

um, would it please the court for you to point this herring out? you just don't like the argument, is all.

i'm not fussed about convincing you, there is research to support the position i've stated. but this is an online board, and i'm not about to spend my sunday digging up citations.

BeachIron

Not trying to troll anyone here. I was not raised in a gun culture or in a paranoid one. I do not live in the boondocks I live and always lived in a city of over 1 million people ( and for years lots more than that) and I have NEVER felt unsafe.

Even if carrying handguns was legal here I would never think of doing so, especially not to work out. I run by myself every week. I go hiking in the woods by myself every week and the only thing I take with me is my cell phone.

I am in the process of moving to the US, my husband is American, and I am really wondering if the problem is that the country itself is completely unsafe or is everyone thinking it's normal to carry a gun every day ( and especially when running!) because there's a paranoid mentality going on that you were all raised with?

I'm trying to understand it.

Please do some searches for "running safety" on here. You will find quite a number of threads by women in the U.K. who are scared to run because they are regularly verbally assaulted by men and are truly afraid of being raped. Is it fair to assume that the U.K. is awash with women being assaulted when they run? I'm guessing no. You will likely find the U.S. to be a very safe place to live if you are not living in a poor and crime ridden neighborhood. We were not all raised with a "paranoid mentality" anymore than the all people in the U.K. are paranoid.

SteveJWatson

That is an interesting red herring and I see you use them regularly in your attempts to persuade. I do not find them helpful or productive. You also missed my point. The argument that guns are a product of anger and fear are typical of the Northeastern academic set who are intent on proving their own superiority and seem to desire to be part of a special class that they themselves are out to create. I am originally from Florida, and very well educated, have lived abroad for a number of years, have made rather good money, and am certainly not angry and scared. Nice try though at painting all firearms owners with a very broad and negative brush.

That really isn't the point. Nice strawman.

Please elaborate if you are going to argue these points. She used a red herring and I called her on it. There are intelligent points to be made on both sides of the debate but I'm seeing way too much in terms of moral superiority and outright labeling of gun owners in the above which I find offensive.

As for the statistical arguments, I've read extensively on this subject and did quite a bit of work on it during law school. Most of the studies on the subject are skewed one way or the other and that makes for some frustration. I personally have no desire to get too deep into this argument because I'm bored with it. My only request is keep the argument on point. And while I disagree with you, your stats arguments were at least a good example of fair argumentation. The above was not.

The point is; that by saying that *you* dont fall into the category of being either part of the underclass or scared, you infer that the whole argument is invalid. It isn't - you have created (in this case made yourself into) a strawman to whom the trend does not apply. One person does not a trend make.

For what its worth, I live in the UK and I own legally-held firearms. So; I'm hardly what you would call anti-gun. However, I find the notion that one would be better protected by carrying a pistol in ones brassiere misguided to say the very least.

WDEvy

Not trying to troll anyone here. I was not raised in a gun culture or in a paranoid one. I do not live in the boondocks I live and always lived in a city of over 1 million people ( and for years lots more than that) and I have NEVER felt unsafe.

Even if carrying handguns was legal here I would never think of doing so, especially not to work out. I run by myself every week. I go hiking in the woods by myself every week and the only thing I take with me is my cell phone.

I am in the process of moving to the US, my husband is American, and I am really wondering if the problem is that the country itself is completely unsafe or is everyone thinking it's normal to carry a gun every day ( and especially when running!) because there's a paranoid mentality going on that you were all raised with?

I'm trying to understand it.

Please do some searches for "running safety" on here. You will find quite a number of threads by women in the U.K. who are scared to run because they are regularly verbally assaulted by men and are truly afraid of being raped. Is it fair to assume that the U.K. is awash with women being assaulted when they run? I'm guessing no. You will likely find the U.S. to be a very safe place to live if you are not living in a poor and crime ridden neighborhood. We were not all raised with a "paranoid mentality" anymore than the all people in the U.K. are paranoid.

First thing First.: Not in the UK.

Let me change "paranoid" to having been raised in a culture of fear, it doesn't sound as negative. We have big cities here and some with gangs and high crime rates but people are not walking around every day fearing for their safety. Why are Americans so scared? That's what I'm trying to understand. How do you go through life fearing that someone will attack you EVERY day? I don't want my children to develop that fear.

I mean it's intelligence 101 not go walk alone or run alone in "bad neighbourhoods" and even if I could carry a gun or a knife or pepper spray I would not pull it on someone verbally assaulting me. What happened to ignoring idiots or telling them off?

I can honestly say that the thing that scares me the most about moving is having to live with people carrying guns on them, that's a lot more terrifying to me than the chance that I might fall victim to a criminal. ( But I'm moving to NE so I have better chance of getting lost in a cornfield than murdered)

LexiAtel

I do! I have been told I will have to gun a gun if I plan on walking in our new place. It's in OK though, in a small town. I am not half as worried as he, but I don't blame him.

BeachIron

That is an interesting red herring and I see you use them regularly in your attempts to persuade. I do not find them helpful or productive. You also missed my point. The argument that guns are a product of anger and fear are typical of the Northeastern academic set who are intent on proving their own superiority and seem to desire to be part of a special class that they themselves are out to create. I am originally from Florida, and very well educated, have lived abroad for a number of years, have made rather good money, and am certainly not angry and scared. Nice try though at painting all firearms owners with a very broad and negative brush.

That really isn't the point. Nice strawman.

Please elaborate if you are going to argue these points. She used a red herring and I called her on it. There are intelligent points to be made on both sides of the debate but I'm seeing way too much in terms of moral superiority and outright labeling of gun owners in the above which I find offensive.

As for the statistical arguments, I've read extensively on this subject and did quite a bit of work on it during law school. Most of the studies on the subject are skewed one way or the other and that makes for some frustration. I personally have no desire to get too deep into this argument because I'm bored with it. My only request is keep the argument on point. And while I disagree with you, your stats arguments were at least a good example of fair argumentation. The above was not.

The point is; that by saying that *you* dont fall into the category of being either part of the underclass or scared, you infer that the whole argument is invalid. It isn't - you have created (in this case made yourself into) a strawman to whom the trend does not apply. One person does not a trend make.

For what its worth, I live in the UK and I own legally-held firearms. So; I'm hardly what you would call anti-gun. However, I find the notion that one would be better protected by carrying a pistol in ones brassiere misguided to say the very least.

There is no trend. These "documentaries" intentionally select individuals because they portray what the producers what to portray. I find it interesting that you want to somehow separate me from the group of other firearms owners rather than actually listen to what I have to say on the subject. Come to the U.S. I'm happy to show you the good and the bad.

As for the brassiere comment, it depends on the individual's mind-set, her training, and the situation. The importance of judgment cannot be underestimated.

BeachIron

Not trying to troll anyone here. I was not raised in a gun culture or in a paranoid one. I do not live in the boondocks I live and always lived in a city of over 1 million people ( and for years lots more than that) and I have NEVER felt unsafe.

Even if carrying handguns was legal here I would never think of doing so, especially not to work out. I run by myself every week. I go hiking in the woods by myself every week and the only thing I take with me is my cell phone.

I am in the process of moving to the US, my husband is American, and I am really wondering if the problem is that the country itself is completely unsafe or is everyone thinking it's normal to carry a gun every day ( and especially when running!) because there's a paranoid mentality going on that you were all raised with?

I'm trying to understand it.

Please do some searches for "running safety" on here. You will find quite a number of threads by women in the U.K. who are scared to run because they are regularly verbally assaulted by men and are truly afraid of being raped. Is it fair to assume that the U.K. is awash with women being assaulted when they run? I'm guessing no. You will likely find the U.S. to be a very safe place to live if you are not living in a poor and crime ridden neighborhood. We were not all raised with a "paranoid mentality" anymore than the all people in the U.K. are paranoid.

First thing First.: Not in the UK.

Let me change "paranoid" to having been raised in a culture of fear, it doesn't sound as negative. We have big cities here and some with gangs and high crime rates but people are not walking around every day fearing for their safety. Why are Americans so scared? That's what I'm trying to understand. How do you go through life fearing that someone will attack you EVERY day? I don't want my children to develop that fear.

I mean it's intelligence 101 not go walk alone or run alone in "bad neighbourhoods" and even if I could carry a gun or a knife or pepper spray I would not pull it on someone verbally assaulting me. What happened to ignoring idiots or telling them off?

I can honestly say that the thing that scares me the most about moving is having to live with people carrying guns on them, that's a lot more terrifying to me than the chance that I might fall victim to a criminal. ( But I'm moving to NE so I have better chance of getting lost in a cornfield than murdered)

As I stated above, we were not all raised with a "paranoid mentality" or a "culture of fear." You obviously watch way too much American TV and Hollywood movies.

WDEvy

Not trying to troll anyone here. I was not raised in a gun culture or in a paranoid one. I do not live in the boondocks I live and always lived in a city of over 1 million people ( and for years lots more than that) and I have NEVER felt unsafe.

Even if carrying handguns was legal here I would never think of doing so, especially not to work out. I run by myself every week. I go hiking in the woods by myself every week and the only thing I take with me is my cell phone.

I am in the process of moving to the US, my husband is American, and I am really wondering if the problem is that the country itself is completely unsafe or is everyone thinking it's normal to carry a gun every day ( and especially when running!) because there's a paranoid mentality going on that you were all raised with?

I'm trying to understand it.

Please do some searches for "running safety" on here. You will find quite a number of threads by women in the U.K. who are scared to run because they are regularly verbally assaulted by men and are truly afraid of being raped. Is it fair to assume that the U.K. is awash with women being assaulted when they run? I'm guessing no. You will likely find the U.S. to be a very safe place to live if you are not living in a poor and crime ridden neighborhood. We were not all raised with a "paranoid mentality" anymore than the all people in the U.K. are paranoid.

First thing First.: Not in the UK.

Let me change "paranoid" to having been raised in a culture of fear, it doesn't sound as negative. We have big cities here and some with gangs and high crime rates but people are not walking around every day fearing for their safety. Why are Americans so scared? That's what I'm trying to understand. How do you go through life fearing that someone will attack you EVERY day? I don't want my children to develop that fear.

I mean it's intelligence 101 not go walk alone or run alone in "bad neighbourhoods" and even if I could carry a gun or a knife or pepper spray I would not pull it on someone verbally assaulting me. What happened to ignoring idiots or telling them off?

I can honestly say that the thing that scares me the most about moving is having to live with people carrying guns on them, that's a lot more terrifying to me than the chance that I might fall victim to a criminal. ( But I'm moving to NE so I have better chance of getting lost in a cornfield than murdered)

As I stated above, we were not all raised with a "paranoid mentality" or a "culture of fear." You obviously watch way too much American TV and Hollywood movies.

The OP is running with a gun in her bra.......... and a lot of the posters find this to be normal behavior. That kind makes my point.

Anyways. Thank you for your answers.

lithezebra

I prefer a thigh holster.

anemoneprose

wow, who referred to "documentaries"? there is solid research, published in peer-reviewed journals, supporting the analysis above.

lovely lady moving to the US: the reason they're afraid is they don't trust each other (the diversity they celebrate correlates to inequalities), and they don't trust the state. use of guns-> historical accident around availability & production + because of certain interpretations of their constitution, they equate gun ownership with personhood & freedom, which is central to the idealized american identity. you'll take the guns from their cold, dead hands. (yup trolling now)

BeachIron

That is an interesting red herring and I see you use them regularly in your attempts to persuade. I do not find them helpful or productive. You also missed my point. The argument that guns are a product of anger and fear are typical of the Northeastern academic set who are intent on proving their own superiority and seem to desire to be part of a special class that they themselves are out to create. I am originally from Florida, and very well educated, have lived abroad for a number of years, have made rather good money, and am certainly not angry and scared. Nice try though at painting all firearms owners with a very broad and negative brush.

That really isn't the point. Nice strawman.

Please elaborate if you are going to argue these points. She used a red herring and I called her on it. There are intelligent points to be made on both sides of the debate but I'm seeing way too much in terms of moral superiority and outright labeling of gun owners in the above which I find offensive.

As for the statistical arguments, I've read extensively on this subject and did quite a bit of work on it during law school. Most of the studies on the subject are skewed one way or the other and that makes for some interesting arguments. I personally have no desire to get too deep into this argument because I'm bored with it. My only request is keep the argument on point. And while I disagree with you, your stats arguments were at least a good example of fair argumentation. The above was not.

um, would it please the court for you to point this herring out? you just don't like the argument, is all.

i'm not fussed about convincing you, there is research to support the position i've stated. but this is an online board, and i'm not about to spend my sunday digging up citations.

As I alluded to above, I've dug quite deeply into the work of Gary Kleck and others. If you want to discuss the subject of safety intelligently then the statistics are necessary. The ad hominems and red herrings are not, and they do not move the discussion forward.

alecialudwickjones

Re: Fear

I carry quite often, openly as I don't have my CCL yet. I'm not really afraid of being attacked and realize it's very unlikely. The fact that I'm comfortable with firearms and it COULD happen is enough. I'm not scared I'm going to die but I'm a big supporter of life insurance, and carrying a condom even if I wasn't planning on getting laid. An ounce of prevention ya know?

BeachIron

Not trying to troll anyone here. I was not raised in a gun culture or in a paranoid one. I do not live in the boondocks I live and always lived in a city of over 1 million people ( and for years lots more than that) and I have NEVER felt unsafe.

Even if carrying handguns was legal here I would never think of doing so, especially not to work out. I run by myself every week. I go hiking in the woods by myself every week and the only thing I take with me is my cell phone.

I am in the process of moving to the US, my husband is American, and I am really wondering if the problem is that the country itself is completely unsafe or is everyone thinking it's normal to carry a gun every day ( and especially when running!) because there's a paranoid mentality going on that you were all raised with?

I'm trying to understand it.

Please do some searches for "running safety" on here. You will find quite a number of threads by women in the U.K. who are scared to run because they are regularly verbally assaulted by men and are truly afraid of being raped. Is it fair to assume that the U.K. is awash with women being assaulted when they run? I'm guessing no. You will likely find the U.S. to be a very safe place to live if you are not living in a poor and crime ridden neighborhood. We were not all raised with a "paranoid mentality" anymore than the all people in the U.K. are paranoid.

First thing First.: Not in the UK.

Let me change "paranoid" to having been raised in a culture of fear, it doesn't sound as negative. We have big cities here and some with gangs and high crime rates but people are not walking around every day fearing for their safety. Why are Americans so scared? That's what I'm trying to understand. How do you go through life fearing that someone will attack you EVERY day? I don't want my children to develop that fear.

I mean it's intelligence 101 not go walk alone or run alone in "bad neighbourhoods" and even if I could carry a gun or a knife or pepper spray I would not pull it on someone verbally assaulting me. What happened to ignoring idiots or telling them off?

I can honestly say that the thing that scares me the most about moving is having to live with people carrying guns on them, that's a lot more terrifying to me than the chance that I might fall victim to a criminal. ( But I'm moving to NE so I have better chance of getting lost in a cornfield than murdered)

As I stated above, we were not all raised with a "paranoid mentality" or a "culture of fear." You obviously watch way too much American TV and Hollywood movies.

The OP is running with a gun in her bra.......... and a lot of the posters find this to be normal behavior. That kind makes my point.

Anyways. Thank you for your answers.

So the one poster raising the point paints the entire U.S. under that light, but my pointing out that I am not like what is being portrayed in videos is not valid? Interesting. Well done, folks. Believe what you want to believe. I see intelligent discussion with this group is impossible.

lithezebra

I'm less worried about serial killers and muggers where I live, and more worried about accidentally finding someone's illegal pot plantation on public land, while I'm hiking, again.