Looking for other pro science people on here
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I'm in, if you'll have me. Biologist and engineer here, so science and nothing but science for me. (Weird combination, I know. But the scientist in me asks "why" and the engineer wants to know "how"
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I have a Master's degree but not in the sciences and have to admit that math was not my thing. However, once I decided to unfriend my fat I began researching.
Numbers fascinate me now -- the simple elegance of calories in / calories out was a revelation for a math idiot like myself. Balancing the two is a true art form.
Eating as many calories as possible while still losing weight? Wow. I don't have to be hangry, ever. 50 lbs lost through balancing calories in / calories out over the last year and a half has empowered me to take control of my weight and health.
I adore the numbers now and bow to all you science and math people. I only regret that I didn't pay more attention in my math/science classes.
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robertw486 wrote: »Some of my friends are dumber than monkeys, since they don't like science or fact based studies at times. It's hard not to laugh when they cite documentaries as the reason for a 30 day juicing diet!
The more I work with monkeys the more I understand people.... we are really not that different... really really...
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If Shadowfax_c11 is an animal trainer, maybe she can add her opinion here and a better explanation than I can give, but there has been a lot of old and well-documented research in the field of behavior. You probably all know Skinner and Pavlov, but look up Bob Bailey, the Brelands, and Dr. Susan Friedman, whose field is applied behavioral analysis, in Utah (behaviorworks.org).
Well... yes and no. My job title in the lab is Animal care technician. I work with multiple species of nonhuman primates but primarily Rhesus macaques and cebus monkeys. I mostly feed them and keep the facility clean. I do a very small amount of cage training, mostly geared toward behavioral work, getting the more difficult animals to become less aggressive and more interested in seeking positive human interactions. The animals are HIGHLY food motivated and usually work for small food rewards. As training progresses I reduce the frequency of the food rewards and use intermittent reinforcement(AKA Operant conditioning). Studies have shown that a monkey will work harder to get a reward if he only has a 50% chance of actually getting the reward. Kinda like how humans get really hooked on gambling... or ebay. I have had success with a few animals now that were difficult and dangerous which have become much more inclined to good behavior.
One of the animal trainers in my facility took my suggestion that this might be useful and tried it with one of her working macaques. She found that his accuracy percentage on the task increased significantly, but he lost his concentration(tired) on the task more quickly. Could possibly relate to why so many humans have difficulty sticking to a eating program over a long period of time?
Aside from my "real job" in science, I have been a professional trainer,and hoof care provider, in the horse world for over 20 years. My area of expertise is working with troubled horses that are difficult and at times dangerous to handle and work on. Most of the time I use pressure and release but have found that some individuals respond extremely well to food rewards. One in particular would not allow anyone to touch him but his owners, making it extremely difficult and dangerous for his past farriers to work on his feet. Using food rewards and a great deal of patience we went from him taking 2.5 hours to allow me to handle all four of his feet briefly, to him willingly lifting his foot and holding it for me before I even touch him. It now takes an average of 15 minutes to do a full trim. He has been cut back gradually from a reward for every tiny try to a reward for a willing and compliant attitude through an entire cycle. Again something like intermittent rewards.
I think this might be a subject worth exploring for people but not real sure how it might apply in this particular model. Monkeys and horses don't have quite the same reasoning power that people do but I do notice a lot of threads where people want to be rewarded for their efforts. Personally for me the reward is seeing my goals being achieved. But that might be the martial artist in me. Being able to find satisfaction in the process of doing the thing rather than expecting the satisfaction to come at it's completion. I see weight management like I see my aikido training. it will never be finished ,at least not while I exist on this plane.
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shadowfax_c11 wrote: »robertw486 wrote: »Some of my friends are dumber than monkeys, since they don't like science or fact based studies at times. It's hard not to laugh when they cite documentaries as the reason for a 30 day juicing diet!
The more I work with monkeys the more I understand people.... we are really not that different... really really...
Some appear to have entered the stone age.
If any develop cooking and the brain power afforded by the increased calories, things could get planet of the apes weird.0 -
lithezebra wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »Biochemist here.
However, I would caution pro science people that we don't necessarily have the big picture about why some people are overweight and some people aren't, or why there is an obesity epidemic. Just telling people to eat less and exercise more doesn't seem to be ending the epidemic, though it has worked for me personally.
And isn't that the issue, though? Whenever it comes down to the individual level, a person exercising more and eating less, i.e. in a calorie deficit, invariably loses the weight. I've yet to hear of someone without a medical condition where that wasn't the case.
But it seems to be a hell of a lot harder for some people. I was a binge eater, and hypothyroid, and still stayed within my healthy weight range. I'm not especially prone to being overweight.
It's simple, not easy.
Geneticist and firm believer in CICO. :flowerforyou:
There is more than just calories in and calories out, when it comes to how much people want to eat, how much energy they actually use, and why some people eat too much. There are also an alarming number of studies showing that people almost invariably regain the weight they lose. If you want science that helps people with obesity and all the health problems associated with it, you can't stop at CICO, no matter how fervently you believe in it, and no matter how well it works for people who aren't overweight anyway, because it hasn't helped enough of the people who really need it.
Most people do fail at dieting, but honestly, the worst case scenario that gets thrown out of 90% comes from a study done in the 1950s - where they used the then cutting edge method of giving people a pamphlet with diet recommendations, sent them home, and then checked on them 1 year or so later.
Trying to deal with obesity as an epidemic involves complex policy decisions that are too political for MFP's general forums, and aren't really useful at the individual level. At the individual level, adherence to a calorie deficit is guaranteed to produce results, and personal responsibility will make it happen. Admittedly, not everyone wants to do that.
I was referring to a 2007 study out of UCLA and published in American Psychologist. People should still eat less and exercise more to lose weight. But the interesting science is the research on what drives overeating.
(Being pro-science, to me, means finding science interesting, not just rejecting unscientific ideas).
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shadowfax_c11 wrote: »robertw486 wrote: »Some of my friends are dumber than monkeys, since they don't like science or fact based studies at times. It's hard not to laugh when they cite documentaries as the reason for a 30 day juicing diet!
The more I work with monkeys the more I understand people.... we are really not that different... really really...
Some appear to have entered the stone age.
If any develop cooking and the brain power afforded by the increased calories, things could get planet of the apes weird.
ummm....You may have missed this.
npr.org/sections/thesalt/2015/06/03/411748170/chimps-are-no-chumps-give-them-an-oven-theyll-learn-to-cook0 -
Okay, dude I have to admit that was really funny.tincanonastring wrote: »Look for people with jailbars over their avatar.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I'm glad you enjoyed it.0 -
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I've of the same opinion. I believe that people that are more susceptible more than likely have lower tolerance/immunity for it. But if concern for is it mandatory for any individual, avoid by all means.
For reals? Impressive.I've got a PhD in toxicology, but I'll be over in the chit chat acting a fool most of the time...
So your take on BPA's?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
my take on most things toxicological is to back away from the edge of crazy and be rational about it.
(assuming you mean Bisphenol A there)
I'm not going to go full bore avoiding all products containing it, but it is nice when you can avoid it. There are just immeasurable compounds that have hormone antagonistic and agonistic effects though (and some of the strongest and most relevant being natural from our diet).
I'm of the opinion that most chemicals added to foods or pertaining to foods (as addetives/modifiers) have been studied well enough that there is at worst a "risk" that is acceptable within guidelines established.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Anecdotes from the many people in fitness who mindlessly follow decades old regimens that had no peer reviewed scientific support to substantiate them.MrsVelapanur wrote: »@ninerbuff - would you please explain what broscience is? Thanks!
As John and Auddii mentioned, things like eating multiple meals, drinking a gallon of water a day, post meal shakes to repair muscles, etc.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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I'm a social scientist *sobs* by education and a know-it-all by personal preference
Seriously I don't even have an 'ology (Economicsology anyone?). I'm not worthy.
But my job involves a lot of spreadsheets at times and I'm capable of using google scholar, understanding the socratic method and I love a good nerd
so c'n I play if I promise to act impressed with the real scientists0 -
Just poppin' in this AM because this thread is my happy place...even the grammar is better!
CICO always works (first law of Thermodynamics). A person who does not lose weight at 1000 calories a day is (somehow) not burning 1000 calories a day, for whatever reason (or it's PEBKAC)
The most common trouble stems from the difficulty balancing that equation, for instance when your hormones or history compel you to take actions that cause you to exceed or underachieve your intake or output.
At that point you are leaving the cut and dry field of physics and are moving into the areas of Biochem and Psychology. Tricky business - they have many more variables, and are much harder to measure!0 -
I'm a registered nutritionist, so I really am pro science stuff. I can't stand all these detoxes, juice cleanses, etc. They are a bunch of balogna that don't even work.0
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shadowfax_c11 wrote: »
Aside from my "real job" in science, I have been a professional trainer,and hoof care provider, in the horse world for over 20 years. My area of expertise is working with troubled horses that are difficult and at times dangerous to handle and work on. Most of the time I use pressure and release but have found that some individuals respond extremely well to food rewards. One in particular would not allow anyone to touch him but his owners, making it extremely difficult and dangerous for his past farriers to work on his feet. Using food rewards and a great deal of patience we went from him taking 2.5 hours to allow me to handle all four of his feet briefly, to him willingly lifting his foot and holding it for me before I even touch him. It now takes an average of 15 minutes to do a full trim. He has been cut back gradually from a reward for every tiny try to a reward for a willing and compliant attitude through an entire cycle. Again something like intermittent rewards.
I think this might be a subject worth exploring for people but not real sure how it might apply in this particular model. Monkeys and horses don't have quite the same reasoning power that people do but I do notice a lot of threads where people want to be rewarded for their efforts. Personally for me the reward is seeing my goals being achieved. But that might be the martial artist in me. Being able to find satisfaction in the process of doing the thing rather than expecting the satisfaction to come at it's completion. I see weight management like I see my aikido training. it will never be finished ,at least not while I exist on this plane.
Thanks for responding. Those horses are lucky to have you!
I saw the greatest application of behavioral science to dieting in the antecedents, the "A" of the "ABC" of antecedent-behavior-consequence. Humans do have a greater intellect, and the rewards of weight loss, improved appearance, and improved fitness are certainly delayed rewards, in contrast to the immediate food reward that can be given to animals. I was thinking of how the environment is set up for the learner to make the right choices. In the case of training the horses through positive reinforcement, maybe you position yourself and the horse in such as way as to make him more likely to lift a foot toward you, or you train when he is just hungry enough that the expectation of food is a good motivator, but he is not so hungry that he is frantic about getting the food. That would be setting the stage for success.
For humans trying to lose weight, thinking about when and why we overeat, and then making environmental changes to make the correct food choices more likely, can be helpful. It was for me. I think the most important factor for me was having good meals ready that involved no last minute time or work. I cook a couple of large pieces of salmon now about once a week, serve dinner to others and myself, then put the extra away in 6 oz portions in freezer containers. When my husband or my husband and kids (depending on who is home) eat more fattening meals or meat, both of which I will cook for them, I can thaw a piece of salmon and eat it either with salad or with frozen steam-in-the-bag vegetables, which I also keep in the house. Before I had my own meals ready, I had intended not to eat the more fattening food, but, at the last minute, tired and with other things going on, I wouldn't bother to make myself a better meal. A couple of other things that helped me were getting more sleep and buying things that come already portioned, such as the small cups of yogurt instead of a larger container, or cheese slices instead of a wedge, as I am much less likely to exceed the prefigured portion. There is some application of this principle of achieving behavior through manipulating the environment in politics and business, with opt out rather than opt in designs. Even without obscurity and with a clear and easy place to make the choice, people are less likely to opt out than to opt in, so making the desired choice the default option makes people more likely to make that choice.
I do believe that the truths of obesity and weight loss are in the biologic sciences, but there are so many confounding variables, and there is so much that we don't yet know, that it is difficult to get really reliable scientific results, and I think that's why so many studies contradict one another. Take obesity - general obesity seems to be different from abdominal obesity, and obese but healthy seems to be different from obese and affected by the extra weight. We know that genetics play a role in obesity, but we also know that genes have variable penetrance and expression. We know that hormones play a role and can affect the studies. We have our own known endogenous hormonal pathways to consider, but what of the increase in endocrine disruptors in the environment - how do we figure that in? Even studies of what to eat can be affected by how the foods are categorized: is oatmeal just oatmeal, or should it be separated into types - do steel cut oats have a lower glycemic index than instant oats? The list of factors that make it hard to get reliable, reproducible results goes on and on. Add to that the problem with working with humans, who aren't laboratory animals. Most of the studies with huge numbers rely on a lot of self reporting, and the best controlled studies are often short term and with fewer subjects. The truth is in the science, but we are a long way off from much of the definitive knowledge we seek. I look forward to following the science with the rest of you, as we try to figure it all out!
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Sorry - Shadowfax ends with the smile - somehow I messed up where the quote should have ended.0
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This is my favorite thread, to date.0
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tincanonastring wrote: »Look for people with jailbars over their avatar.0
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I'm a registered nutritionist, so I really am pro science stuff. I can't stand all these detoxes, juice cleanses, etc. They are a bunch of balogna that don't even work.
Wow good to see there are Nutritionists out there that don't recommend detoxing. 90% go straight to the "cut out wheat" and "you need to detox" approach without hesitation! In fact it seems to be the only thing they recommend here in Australia but what is really dangerous here is there are no rules about who can call themselves 'nutritionist' you don't even need qualifications or you can get one for $49 and you get a pretty certificate and bam your certified!
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Sorry - Shadowfax ends with the smile - somehow I messed up where the quote should have ended.
Got it. Great post! I agree with pretty much everything you said.
Yes with animals it is really a case of setting them up for success. So at first you put them into a position where they will almost immediately do a "correct" action unintentionally. In the case of the horse I mentioned the first "task" for him was to allow me to place my hand on his left shoulder for a moment. The key was to reward the exact instant he allowed the contact and then to break it myself before he did. This progressed to other parts of the body and down the leg to the foot. Then it went from allowing contact to allowing contact and thinking about picking up the foot. It takes a lot of sensitivity to find this moment but you can find it if you are quiet, relaxed and focused. Martial arts training is helpful in this aspect.
Most animals, once they figure out that there is something they are supposed to do in order to get the reward and shortly they will set about trying many different things to find the correct answer.
Many of our monkeys work for their daily water. So they are not given water in the home cage but receive it as they work. They are never deprived to the point of being frantic for the reward but they are set up to be a little thirsty so that they have motivation when they go to work. A very few work in a similar fashion for their daily food.
For the general public this model really won't work since as you noted people are not in a lab environment where every aspect of their life is documented and controlled.
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