Article of a Women's Journey With Anorexia and Orthorexia that Almost Killed Her
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Replies
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Thanks Shell for posting. I did not understand what Orthorexia was before. Very informative, I agree with those who have stated that it is more about control than food or exercise. Just like domestic abuse is more about control than anger management, we can go so wrong with treatment when there is an incorrect understanding of what is at root of the issue.0
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snickerscharlie wrote: »Fabulous thread, shelley! Thanks for starting it.
Another one who thinks that allowing the thread to devolve into a debate over "good" parenting versus "bad" parenting would NOT have been the message to be gotten out of this very informative article, nor the reason the OP posted it to begin with.
I think it does point to a need for parents to work towards and model self-acceptance re body image, though.
Yes, by educating, not shaming.
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snickerscharlie wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »Fabulous thread, shelley! Thanks for starting it.
Another one who thinks that allowing the thread to devolve into a debate over "good" parenting versus "bad" parenting would NOT have been the message to be gotten out of this very informative article, nor the reason the OP posted it to begin with.
I think it does point to a need for parents to work towards and model self-acceptance re body image, though.
Yes, by educating, not shaming.
Of course0 -
@shell1005 Thank you so much for posting this article.
It has resonated with me very much.....particularly the concept that there could be a genetic component to the development of an Eating Disorder alongside the internalized messages one may or may not receive is a very interesting one.
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My mom had eating disorder. We'd call it anorexia today. Back then, that wasn't even a word yet. Anyway, I noticed one day I was mad about something and didn't eat. I just kind of noticed and thought, "Well, that's stupid. Why is making yourself feel bad going to hurt the other person, anyway?"
I quit doing that and haven't ever since then, so I think the idea that parents are so powerful is suspect. I chose to follow some stuff and I chose to not follow other stuff.0 -
I read this woman's account of focusing on her health and how the strict rules became pathological for her. I don't think everyone who gets all CLEAN EATING WHOLE FOODS focused will have this almost fatal outcome, however I found it interesting.
I also found the article interesting since she talked some about the recovery and treatment of her eating/exercising disorders.
http://www.self.com/wellness/health/2015/03/care-too-much-about-healthy-eating/
Wow. Thanks for posting this. It's important to remember that eating disorders aren't limited to young teens.0 -
Loved that article. Its great motivation that there is light at the end of the tunnel0
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Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »I read this woman's account of focusing on her health and how the strict rules became pathological for her. I don't think everyone who gets all CLEAN EATING WHOLE FOODS focused will have this almost fatal outcome, however I found it interesting.
I also found the article interesting since she talked some about the recovery and treatment of her eating/exercising disorders.
http://www.self.com/wellness/health/2015/03/care-too-much-about-healthy-eating/
Wow. Thanks for posting this. It's important to remember that eating disorders aren't limited to young teens.
It certainly isn't. We've been watching a friend's wife slide into and denial of anorexia, and she's in her early 40's. A desire to lose a few vanity pounds turned into cutting out everything "bad" and swiftly led to orthorexia. I've watched her have nothing but a cup of hot water at functions, because she doesn't eat (insert list here).
Knowing her pre-teen daughter is watching and absorbing all of this breaks my heart.
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Thanks for the read!0
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Thanks for posting this! great article0
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Thanks for posting this, it's a good article and a good / inspiring story. I could say that I fall into the orthorexia category. It's about control and feeling better than everyone else for not only making what we perceive as the "right" choices for 100% clean and healthy foods but for having the willpower and discipline to do so. I get compliments and praise all day long from various colleagues about how strong and lean I am, about how good I am, about my discipline, how they wish they had half of my energy and passion.... and you know what? I love every minute of it. I love having control over what I buy, what I cook, how I prepare it. There are still things I enjoy... some breads, some healthy desserts, etc. But these are things I make myself so I know exactly what ingredients are used. I am not in the habit of eating at the same spot at the same time with the same fork and all of that.. in fact it's quite the opposite. I frequently change the times that I eat and the items that I eat based upon the physical activities I'm performing that day. Anyway, again, good article, good post. I'm glad she got help.0
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Nope. With the exception of one woman (who, by the way, was extremely intelligent and Ivy League educated), my patients were teens or just out of their teens. They lived at home and ate what their parents served. If mom served healthy food, they ate that. If mom gave them McDonald's, they ate that.snickerscharlie wrote: »Fabulous thread, shelley! Thanks for starting it.
Another one who thinks that allowing the thread to devolve into a debate over "good" parenting versus "bad" parenting would NOT have been the message to be gotten out of this very informative article, nor the reason the OP posted it to begin with.
Thank you.
I thought this article was really poignant and interesting.
I also think it shows that sometimes there is a great divide between "healthy eating" and disordered eating patterns and sometimes the differences are so small that we can no longer differentiate.
I can't agree
Arguably *any* dieter's preoccupation with food (quantity or quality) , especially in the beginning of weight loss, could look concerning. Beginning losers often spend a LOT of time thinking about food & planning meals, and being anxious about going over, seeing losses, eating among others in uncontrolled situations. The difference between that and an eating disorder might be small, I grant you. And that applies to anyone on any kind of diet.
But for someone who's not vulnerable, that is just a learning curve. Once you find a groove, and especially into maintenance, there's a lot less anxiety, preoccupation, time spent thinking about food etc.
The paradox is that we have a *culture* with a disordered relationship with food, an obesogenic culture. Anyone eating for health and healthy weight is going to be at odds with it and experience some strain.
You are right, we don't agree.
For most, an obsession with healthy eating will not turn into an eating disorder, however I still think the rigidity of it can be problematic. This woman seemed predisposed due to her perfectionistic/obsessive nature. The article made that clear. However the line sometimes is not so cut and dry. I think there is value in recognizing that.
But it's the same for being rigid about calories and amounts. There are people who count peas on their plate ("no more than 10") or will have no more than three bites of any food. It doesn't matter what the diet is, it's the fact of restriction and the rigid *approach* itself.
Maybe so, maybe not.
It's a googleable question, probably. Or we could ask Kalikel what kinds of diets were common among her patients, for an idea.
I'd rather not ask someone to share anything specific about work they did with clients. It's something that I consider a professional no no.
I've worked within the population and I do think diets full of rigidity can be problematic to those who may be more inclined.
She could talk about *trends* without discussing the patients themselves.
Did your patients all start with "clean eating"?
Many (most) adopted "healthy eating" but it was less of an orthorexic thing than it was a desire to eat food that was low-cal. Plus, if you tell your parents that you're a vegan, then that's a good explanation for why you don't wish to eat what they're serving. It's not that you don't want to eat food, it's that you're philosophically opposed to it!
I absolutely love the anorexics. They have a special place in my heart, for sure. I love them like people love babies, flowers or rainy days. Just something that touches you, you know? They come off as bellicose, angry and sullen at first, but deep down, they're a very sweet group of girls; it's hard not to love them. However, as a group, by they are one lying (sometimes even to themselves), secretive and conniving group of girls!
I never had a patient who remained a vegan after recovery. I'm sure some do! But none of mine did. Some get orthorexic, and that's a nightmare, for sure, but most are using it as an excuse to not eat.
One thing people are always surprised to hear is that MANY of the anorexics eat junk food. For some, it's pretty much all they eat. They starve and starve, go to the bathroom and try, unsuccessfully, to poop and then lie and starve some more. They don't eat. Then, something happens (hunger is a powerful motivator) and they crack. One girl described the binging as instinctive, bordering on primal, though she used the words, "It's like...it's like I'm an animal." They must eat. The don't want to, but they must.
Do they think, "Well, I'm starving all the time and my body is seriously malnourished. I lack all the vitamins and minerals, so I should probably have some fruits, veggies and meat"???? No! When they eat, it's often candy, donuts, chips, cake. Almost always, it's high-fat, high-sugar treats. Even if they aren't binging, if mom brings home McDonald's, they might eat two McNuggets and a few fries. It always surprises people to find out that girls with EDs eat junk food. We think that if one wanted to starve, they'd eat only low-cal items, but you can starve and eat a little bit of what mom severs so she won't get upset and there won't be the emotional conversation about your eating. They eat all different kinds of food and still starve.
Orthorexia is a real thing and it happens to many people with EDs, but not all of them get that way. Many will, even when not binging, eat peanut butter, chips, sandwiches, whatever. When they "binge" (and to an anorexic, 300 calories in a meal could be considered a binge, no joke...to some, any eating is "a binge")...it's almost always done on junk food.
They most certainly do not all begin as orthorexics. Many don't even know why they began starving.
If I had one wish for the girls who are actively anorexic (aside from not being anorexic and just "eat more!"), it would be that they eat more healthy food, not less.0 -
Nope. With the exception of one woman (who, by the way, was extremely intelligent and Ivy League educated), my patients were teens or just out of their teens. They lived at home and ate what their parents served. If mom served healthy food, they ate that. If mom gave them McDonald's, they ate that.snickerscharlie wrote: »Fabulous thread, shelley! Thanks for starting it.
Another one who thinks that allowing the thread to devolve into a debate over "good" parenting versus "bad" parenting would NOT have been the message to be gotten out of this very informative article, nor the reason the OP posted it to begin with.
Thank you.
I thought this article was really poignant and interesting.
I also think it shows that sometimes there is a great divide between "healthy eating" and disordered eating patterns and sometimes the differences are so small that we can no longer differentiate.
I can't agree
Arguably *any* dieter's preoccupation with food (quantity or quality) , especially in the beginning of weight loss, could look concerning. Beginning losers often spend a LOT of time thinking about food & planning meals, and being anxious about going over, seeing losses, eating among others in uncontrolled situations. The difference between that and an eating disorder might be small, I grant you. And that applies to anyone on any kind of diet.
But for someone who's not vulnerable, that is just a learning curve. Once you find a groove, and especially into maintenance, there's a lot less anxiety, preoccupation, time spent thinking about food etc.
The paradox is that we have a *culture* with a disordered relationship with food, an obesogenic culture. Anyone eating for health and healthy weight is going to be at odds with it and experience some strain.
You are right, we don't agree.
For most, an obsession with healthy eating will not turn into an eating disorder, however I still think the rigidity of it can be problematic. This woman seemed predisposed due to her perfectionistic/obsessive nature. The article made that clear. However the line sometimes is not so cut and dry. I think there is value in recognizing that.
But it's the same for being rigid about calories and amounts. There are people who count peas on their plate ("no more than 10") or will have no more than three bites of any food. It doesn't matter what the diet is, it's the fact of restriction and the rigid *approach* itself.
Maybe so, maybe not.
It's a googleable question, probably. Or we could ask Kalikel what kinds of diets were common among her patients, for an idea.
I'd rather not ask someone to share anything specific about work they did with clients. It's something that I consider a professional no no.
I've worked within the population and I do think diets full of rigidity can be problematic to those who may be more inclined.
She could talk about *trends* without discussing the patients themselves.
Did your patients all start with "clean eating"?
Many (most) adopted "healthy eating" but it was less of an orthorexic thing than it was a desire to eat food that was low-cal. Plus, if you tell your parents that you're a vegan, then that's a good explanation for why you don't wish to eat what they're serving. It's not that you don't want to eat food, it's that you're philosophically opposed to it!
I absolutely love the anorexics. They have a special place in my heart, for sure. I love them like people love babies, flowers or rainy days. Just something that touches you, you know? They come off as bellicose, angry and sullen at first, but deep down, they're a very sweet group of girls; it's hard not to love them. However, as a group, by they are one lying (sometimes even to themselves), secretive and conniving group of girls!
I never had a patient who remained a vegan after recovery. I'm sure some do! But none of mine did. Some get orthorexic, and that's a nightmare, for sure, but most are using it as an excuse to not eat.
One thing people are always surprised to hear is that MANY of the anorexics eat junk food. For some, it's pretty much all they eat. They starve and starve, go to the bathroom and try, unsuccessfully, to poop and then lie and starve some more. They don't eat. Then, something happens (hunger is a powerful motivator) and they crack. One girl described the binging as instinctive, bordering on primal, though she used the words, "It's like...it's like I'm an animal." They must eat. The don't want to, but they must.
Do they think, "Well, I'm starving all the time and my body is seriously malnourished. I lack all the vitamins and minerals, so I should probably have some fruits, veggies and meat"???? No! When they eat, it's often candy, donuts, chips, cake. Almost always, it's high-fat, high-sugar treats. Even if they aren't binging, if mom brings home McDonald's, they might eat two McNuggets and a few fries. It always surprises people to find out that girls with EDs eat junk food. We think that if one wanted to starve, they'd eat only low-cal items, but you can starve and eat a little bit of what mom severs so she won't get upset and there won't be the emotional conversation about your eating. They eat all different kinds of food and still starve.
Orthorexia is a real thing and it happens to many people with EDs, but not all of them get that way. Many will, even when not binging, eat peanut butter, chips, sandwiches, whatever. When they "binge" (and to an anorexic, 300 calories in a meal could be considered a binge, no joke...to some, any eating is "a binge")...it's almost always done on junk food.
They most certainly do not all begin as orthorexics. Many don't even know why they began starving.
If I had one wish for the girls who are actively anorexic (aside from not being anorexic and just "eat more!"), it would be that they eat more healthy food, not less.
Thank you so much, @Kalikel, for this insightful and empathetic account of your experiences with this group and their approach to food.0 -
I'd always try to say something nice about them because 1) I like them and 2) it was true and 3) they're often so sensitive. Nasty comments could send some of them spiraling into tears and that breaks my heart. I wanted them to see that someone gave a rat's behind. So, I'd say something nice and a bunch of them would friend me.
Nope. With the exception of one woman (who, by the way, was extremely intelligent and Ivy League educated), my patients were teens or just out of their teens. They lived at home and ate what their parents served. If mom served healthy food, they ate that. If mom gave them McDonald's, they ate that.snickerscharlie wrote: »Fabulous thread, shelley! Thanks for starting it.
Another one who thinks that allowing the thread to devolve into a debate over "good" parenting versus "bad" parenting would NOT have been the message to be gotten out of this very informative article, nor the reason the OP posted it to begin with.
Thank you.
I thought this article was really poignant and interesting.
I also think it shows that sometimes there is a great divide between "healthy eating" and disordered eating patterns and sometimes the differences are so small that we can no longer differentiate.
I can't agree
Arguably *any* dieter's preoccupation with food (quantity or quality) , especially in the beginning of weight loss, could look concerning. Beginning losers often spend a LOT of time thinking about food & planning meals, and being anxious about going over, seeing losses, eating among others in uncontrolled situations. The difference between that and an eating disorder might be small, I grant you. And that applies to anyone on any kind of diet.
But for someone who's not vulnerable, that is just a learning curve. Once you find a groove, and especially into maintenance, there's a lot less anxiety, preoccupation, time spent thinking about food etc.
The paradox is that we have a *culture* with a disordered relationship with food, an obesogenic culture. Anyone eating for health and healthy weight is going to be at odds with it and experience some strain.
You are right, we don't agree.
For most, an obsession with healthy eating will not turn into an eating disorder, however I still think the rigidity of it can be problematic. This woman seemed predisposed due to her perfectionistic/obsessive nature. The article made that clear. However the line sometimes is not so cut and dry. I think there is value in recognizing that.
But it's the same for being rigid about calories and amounts. There are people who count peas on their plate ("no more than 10") or will have no more than three bites of any food. It doesn't matter what the diet is, it's the fact of restriction and the rigid *approach* itself.
Maybe so, maybe not.
It's a googleable question, probably. Or we could ask Kalikel what kinds of diets were common among her patients, for an idea.
I'd rather not ask someone to share anything specific about work they did with clients. It's something that I consider a professional no no.
I've worked within the population and I do think diets full of rigidity can be problematic to those who may be more inclined.
She could talk about *trends* without discussing the patients themselves.
Did your patients all start with "clean eating"?
Many (most) adopted "healthy eating" but it was less of an orthorexic thing than it was a desire to eat food that was low-cal. Plus, if you tell your parents that you're a vegan, then that's a good explanation for why you don't wish to eat what they're serving. It's not that you don't want to eat food, it's that you're philosophically opposed to it!
I absolutely love the anorexics. They have a special place in my heart, for sure. I love them like people love babies, flowers or rainy days. Just something that touches you, you know? They come off as bellicose, angry and sullen at first, but deep down, they're a very sweet group of girls; it's hard not to love them. However, as a group, by they are one lying (sometimes even to themselves), secretive and conniving group of girls!
I never had a patient who remained a vegan after recovery. I'm sure some do! But none of mine did. Some get orthorexic, and that's a nightmare, for sure, but most are using it as an excuse to not eat.
One thing people are always surprised to hear is that MANY of the anorexics eat junk food. For some, it's pretty much all they eat. They starve and starve, go to the bathroom and try, unsuccessfully, to poop and then lie and starve some more. They don't eat. Then, something happens (hunger is a powerful motivator) and they crack. One girl described the binging as instinctive, bordering on primal, though she used the words, "It's like...it's like I'm an animal." They must eat. The don't want to, but they must.
Do they think, "Well, I'm starving all the time and my body is seriously malnourished. I lack all the vitamins and minerals, so I should probably have some fruits, veggies and meat"???? No! When they eat, it's often candy, donuts, chips, cake. Almost always, it's high-fat, high-sugar treats. Even if they aren't binging, if mom brings home McDonald's, they might eat two McNuggets and a few fries. It always surprises people to find out that girls with EDs eat junk food. We think that if one wanted to starve, they'd eat only low-cal items, but you can starve and eat a little bit of what mom severs so she won't get upset and there won't be the emotional conversation about your eating. They eat all different kinds of food and still starve.
Orthorexia is a real thing and it happens to many people with EDs, but not all of them get that way. Many will, even when not binging, eat peanut butter, chips, sandwiches, whatever. When they "binge" (and to an anorexic, 300 calories in a meal could be considered a binge, no joke...to some, any eating is "a binge")...it's almost always done on junk food.
They most certainly do not all begin as orthorexics. Many don't even know why they began starving.
If I had one wish for the girls who are actively anorexic (aside from not being anorexic and just "eat more!"), it would be that they eat more healthy food, not less.
Thank you so much, @Kalikel, for this insightful and empathetic account of your experiences with this group and their approach to food.
Then I'd start bitching at them to stop eating candy and start eating some veggies. They have like 400 calories for the day and 300 of it is "Nestle Crunch." There I'd be, "For 300 calories, you could get X amount of protein and some vitamins! Eat your fruits and veggies!" One girl literally never ate anything healthy. One day, after months, I saw green beans and practically jumped for joy. When she had McDonald's, I was so happy. Meat!
Some unfriended me because of my constant, "Eat a damn vegetable!" stuff, lol. Surprisingly, many didn't. I thought for sure they would, but lots didn't.
It's too much, watching it and seeing that, even with tiny amounts of food, NO vitamins and minerals.
(Which is not o say that none ever ate a veggie.)
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There used to be an issue on this board. There were some bullies who would seriously pick on anorexics. I'd always try to say something nice about them because 1) I like them and 2) it was true and 3) they're often so sensitive. Nasty comments could send some of them spiraling into tears and that breaks my heart. I wanted them to see that someone gave a rat's behind. So, I'd say something nice and a bunch of them would friend me.
Nope. With the exception of one woman (who, by the way, was extremely intelligent and Ivy League educated), my patients were teens or just out of their teens. They lived at home and ate what their parents served. If mom served healthy food, they ate that. If mom gave them McDonald's, they ate that.snickerscharlie wrote: »Fabulous thread, shelley! Thanks for starting it.
Another one who thinks that allowing the thread to devolve into a debate over "good" parenting versus "bad" parenting would NOT have been the message to be gotten out of this very informative article, nor the reason the OP posted it to begin with.
Thank you.
I thought this article was really poignant and interesting.
I also think it shows that sometimes there is a great divide between "healthy eating" and disordered eating patterns and sometimes the differences are so small that we can no longer differentiate.
I can't agree
Arguably *any* dieter's preoccupation with food (quantity or quality) , especially in the beginning of weight loss, could look concerning. Beginning losers often spend a LOT of time thinking about food & planning meals, and being anxious about going over, seeing losses, eating among others in uncontrolled situations. The difference between that and an eating disorder might be small, I grant you. And that applies to anyone on any kind of diet.
But for someone who's not vulnerable, that is just a learning curve. Once you find a groove, and especially into maintenance, there's a lot less anxiety, preoccupation, time spent thinking about food etc.
The paradox is that we have a *culture* with a disordered relationship with food, an obesogenic culture. Anyone eating for health and healthy weight is going to be at odds with it and experience some strain.
You are right, we don't agree.
For most, an obsession with healthy eating will not turn into an eating disorder, however I still think the rigidity of it can be problematic. This woman seemed predisposed due to her perfectionistic/obsessive nature. The article made that clear. However the line sometimes is not so cut and dry. I think there is value in recognizing that.
But it's the same for being rigid about calories and amounts. There are people who count peas on their plate ("no more than 10") or will have no more than three bites of any food. It doesn't matter what the diet is, it's the fact of restriction and the rigid *approach* itself.
Maybe so, maybe not.
It's a googleable question, probably. Or we could ask Kalikel what kinds of diets were common among her patients, for an idea.
I'd rather not ask someone to share anything specific about work they did with clients. It's something that I consider a professional no no.
I've worked within the population and I do think diets full of rigidity can be problematic to those who may be more inclined.
She could talk about *trends* without discussing the patients themselves.
Did your patients all start with "clean eating"?
Many (most) adopted "healthy eating" but it was less of an orthorexic thing than it was a desire to eat food that was low-cal. Plus, if you tell your parents that you're a vegan, then that's a good explanation for why you don't wish to eat what they're serving. It's not that you don't want to eat food, it's that you're philosophically opposed to it!
I absolutely love the anorexics. They have a special place in my heart, for sure. I love them like people love babies, flowers or rainy days. Just something that touches you, you know? They come off as bellicose, angry and sullen at first, but deep down, they're a very sweet group of girls; it's hard not to love them. However, as a group, by they are one lying (sometimes even to themselves), secretive and conniving group of girls!
I never had a patient who remained a vegan after recovery. I'm sure some do! But none of mine did. Some get orthorexic, and that's a nightmare, for sure, but most are using it as an excuse to not eat.
One thing people are always surprised to hear is that MANY of the anorexics eat junk food. For some, it's pretty much all they eat. They starve and starve, go to the bathroom and try, unsuccessfully, to poop and then lie and starve some more. They don't eat. Then, something happens (hunger is a powerful motivator) and they crack. One girl described the binging as instinctive, bordering on primal, though she used the words, "It's like...it's like I'm an animal." They must eat. The don't want to, but they must.
Do they think, "Well, I'm starving all the time and my body is seriously malnourished. I lack all the vitamins and minerals, so I should probably have some fruits, veggies and meat"???? No! When they eat, it's often candy, donuts, chips, cake. Almost always, it's high-fat, high-sugar treats. Even if they aren't binging, if mom brings home McDonald's, they might eat two McNuggets and a few fries. It always surprises people to find out that girls with EDs eat junk food. We think that if one wanted to starve, they'd eat only low-cal items, but you can starve and eat a little bit of what mom severs so she won't get upset and there won't be the emotional conversation about your eating. They eat all different kinds of food and still starve.
Orthorexia is a real thing and it happens to many people with EDs, but not all of them get that way. Many will, even when not binging, eat peanut butter, chips, sandwiches, whatever. When they "binge" (and to an anorexic, 300 calories in a meal could be considered a binge, no joke...to some, any eating is "a binge")...it's almost always done on junk food.
They most certainly do not all begin as orthorexics. Many don't even know why they began starving.
If I had one wish for the girls who are actively anorexic (aside from not being anorexic and just "eat more!"), it would be that they eat more healthy food, not less.
Thank you so much, @Kalikel, for this insightful and empathetic account of your experiences with this group and their approach to food.
Then I'd start bitching at them to stop eating candy and start eating some veggies. They have like 400 calories for the day and 300 of it is "Nestle Crunch." There I'd be, "For 300 calories, you could get X amount of protein and some vitamins! Eat your fruits and veggies!" One girl literally never ate anything healthy. One day, after months, I saw green beans and practically jumped for joy. When she had McDonald's, I was so happy. Meat!
Some unfriended me because of my constant, "Eat a damn vegetable!" stuff, lol. Surprisingly, many didn't. I thought for sure they would, but lots didn't.
It's too much, watching it and seeing that, even with tiny amounts of food, NO vitamins and minerals.
(Which is not o say that none ever ate a veggie.)
So there's a big difference between eating only junk (being anorexic), and eating only clean, very specific foods (orthorexic). I would not eat McDonalds (or as I like to call it, McPoisions) if someone paid me! I mean if you want to go ahead and call that meat go nuts... but we all know it isn't really meat right? lol 0 -
Nope. With the exception of one woman (who, by the way, was extremely intelligent and Ivy League educated), my patients were teens or just out of their teens. They lived at home and ate what their parents served. If mom served healthy food, they ate that. If mom gave them McDonald's, they ate that.snickerscharlie wrote: »Fabulous thread, shelley! Thanks for starting it.
Another one who thinks that allowing the thread to devolve into a debate over "good" parenting versus "bad" parenting would NOT have been the message to be gotten out of this very informative article, nor the reason the OP posted it to begin with.
Thank you.
I thought this article was really poignant and interesting.
I also think it shows that sometimes there is a great divide between "healthy eating" and disordered eating patterns and sometimes the differences are so small that we can no longer differentiate.
I can't agree
Arguably *any* dieter's preoccupation with food (quantity or quality) , especially in the beginning of weight loss, could look concerning. Beginning losers often spend a LOT of time thinking about food & planning meals, and being anxious about going over, seeing losses, eating among others in uncontrolled situations. The difference between that and an eating disorder might be small, I grant you. And that applies to anyone on any kind of diet.
But for someone who's not vulnerable, that is just a learning curve. Once you find a groove, and especially into maintenance, there's a lot less anxiety, preoccupation, time spent thinking about food etc.
The paradox is that we have a *culture* with a disordered relationship with food, an obesogenic culture. Anyone eating for health and healthy weight is going to be at odds with it and experience some strain.
You are right, we don't agree.
For most, an obsession with healthy eating will not turn into an eating disorder, however I still think the rigidity of it can be problematic. This woman seemed predisposed due to her perfectionistic/obsessive nature. The article made that clear. However the line sometimes is not so cut and dry. I think there is value in recognizing that.
But it's the same for being rigid about calories and amounts. There are people who count peas on their plate ("no more than 10") or will have no more than three bites of any food. It doesn't matter what the diet is, it's the fact of restriction and the rigid *approach* itself.
Maybe so, maybe not.
It's a googleable question, probably. Or we could ask Kalikel what kinds of diets were common among her patients, for an idea.
I'd rather not ask someone to share anything specific about work they did with clients. It's something that I consider a professional no no.
I've worked within the population and I do think diets full of rigidity can be problematic to those who may be more inclined.
She could talk about *trends* without discussing the patients themselves.
Did your patients all start with "clean eating"?
Many (most) adopted "healthy eating" but it was less of an orthorexic thing than it was a desire to eat food that was low-cal. Plus, if you tell your parents that you're a vegan, then that's a good explanation for why you don't wish to eat what they're serving. It's not that you don't want to eat food, it's that you're philosophically opposed to it!
I absolutely love the anorexics. They have a special place in my heart, for sure. I love them like people love babies, flowers or rainy days. Just something that touches you, you know? They come off as bellicose, angry and sullen at first, but deep down, they're a very sweet group of girls; it's hard not to love them. However, as a group, by they are one lying (sometimes even to themselves), secretive and conniving group of girls!
I never had a patient who remained a vegan after recovery. I'm sure some do! But none of mine did. Some get orthorexic, and that's a nightmare, for sure, but most are using it as an excuse to not eat.
One thing people are always surprised to hear is that MANY of the anorexics eat junk food. For some, it's pretty much all they eat. They starve and starve, go to the bathroom and try, unsuccessfully, to poop and then lie and starve some more. They don't eat. Then, something happens (hunger is a powerful motivator) and they crack. One girl described the binging as instinctive, bordering on primal, though she used the words, "It's like...it's like I'm an animal." They must eat. The don't want to, but they must.
Do they think, "Well, I'm starving all the time and my body is seriously malnourished. I lack all the vitamins and minerals, so I should probably have some fruits, veggies and meat"???? No! When they eat, it's often candy, donuts, chips, cake. Almost always, it's high-fat, high-sugar treats. Even if they aren't binging, if mom brings home McDonald's, they might eat two McNuggets and a few fries. It always surprises people to find out that girls with EDs eat junk food. We think that if one wanted to starve, they'd eat only low-cal items, but you can starve and eat a little bit of what mom severs so she won't get upset and there won't be the emotional conversation about your eating. They eat all different kinds of food and still starve.
Orthorexia is a real thing and it happens to many people with EDs, but not all of them get that way. Many will, even when not binging, eat peanut butter, chips, sandwiches, whatever. When they "binge" (and to an anorexic, 300 calories in a meal could be considered a binge, no joke...to some, any eating is "a binge")...it's almost always done on junk food.
They most certainly do not all begin as orthorexics. Many don't even know why they began starving.
If I had one wish for the girls who are actively anorexic (aside from not being anorexic and just "eat more!"), it would be that they eat more healthy food, not less.
You sound like a truely caring person. I would have loved to have met you 30 years ago. Thank you0 -
You can be anorexic and orthorexic. You can also be anorexic and eat junk food. If you're orthorexic, though, you'll likely end up anorexic if you don't seek help.cushman5279 wrote: »
There used to be an issue on this board. There were some bullies who would seriously pick on anorexics. I'd always try to say something nice about them because 1) I like them and 2) it was true and 3) they're often so sensitive. Nasty comments could send some of them spiraling into tears and that breaks my heart. I wanted them to see that someone gave a rat's behind. So, I'd say something nice and a bunch of them would friend me.
Nope. With the exception of one woman (who, by the way, was extremely intelligent and Ivy League educated), my patients were teens or just out of their teens. They lived at home and ate what their parents served. If mom served healthy food, they ate that. If mom gave them McDonald's, they ate that.snickerscharlie wrote: »Fabulous thread, shelley! Thanks for starting it.
Another one who thinks that allowing the thread to devolve into a debate over "good" parenting versus "bad" parenting would NOT have been the message to be gotten out of this very informative article, nor the reason the OP posted it to begin with.
Thank you.
I thought this article was really poignant and interesting.
I also think it shows that sometimes there is a great divide between "healthy eating" and disordered eating patterns and sometimes the differences are so small that we can no longer differentiate.
I can't agree
Arguably *any* dieter's preoccupation with food (quantity or quality) , especially in the beginning of weight loss, could look concerning. Beginning losers often spend a LOT of time thinking about food & planning meals, and being anxious about going over, seeing losses, eating among others in uncontrolled situations. The difference between that and an eating disorder might be small, I grant you. And that applies to anyone on any kind of diet.
But for someone who's not vulnerable, that is just a learning curve. Once you find a groove, and especially into maintenance, there's a lot less anxiety, preoccupation, time spent thinking about food etc.
The paradox is that we have a *culture* with a disordered relationship with food, an obesogenic culture. Anyone eating for health and healthy weight is going to be at odds with it and experience some strain.
You are right, we don't agree.
For most, an obsession with healthy eating will not turn into an eating disorder, however I still think the rigidity of it can be problematic. This woman seemed predisposed due to her perfectionistic/obsessive nature. The article made that clear. However the line sometimes is not so cut and dry. I think there is value in recognizing that.
But it's the same for being rigid about calories and amounts. There are people who count peas on their plate ("no more than 10") or will have no more than three bites of any food. It doesn't matter what the diet is, it's the fact of restriction and the rigid *approach* itself.
Maybe so, maybe not.
It's a googleable question, probably. Or we could ask Kalikel what kinds of diets were common among her patients, for an idea.
I'd rather not ask someone to share anything specific about work they did with clients. It's something that I consider a professional no no.
I've worked within the population and I do think diets full of rigidity can be problematic to those who may be more inclined.
She could talk about *trends* without discussing the patients themselves.
Did your patients all start with "clean eating"?
Many (most) adopted "healthy eating" but it was less of an orthorexic thing than it was a desire to eat food that was low-cal. Plus, if you tell your parents that you're a vegan, then that's a good explanation for why you don't wish to eat what they're serving. It's not that you don't want to eat food, it's that you're philosophically opposed to it!
I absolutely love the anorexics. They have a special place in my heart, for sure. I love them like people love babies, flowers or rainy days. Just something that touches you, you know? They come off as bellicose, angry and sullen at first, but deep down, they're a very sweet group of girls; it's hard not to love them. However, as a group, by they are one lying (sometimes even to themselves), secretive and conniving group of girls!
I never had a patient who remained a vegan after recovery. I'm sure some do! But none of mine did. Some get orthorexic, and that's a nightmare, for sure, but most are using it as an excuse to not eat.
One thing people are always surprised to hear is that MANY of the anorexics eat junk food. For some, it's pretty much all they eat. They starve and starve, go to the bathroom and try, unsuccessfully, to poop and then lie and starve some more. They don't eat. Then, something happens (hunger is a powerful motivator) and they crack. One girl described the binging as instinctive, bordering on primal, though she used the words, "It's like...it's like I'm an animal." They must eat. The don't want to, but they must.
Do they think, "Well, I'm starving all the time and my body is seriously malnourished. I lack all the vitamins and minerals, so I should probably have some fruits, veggies and meat"???? No! When they eat, it's often candy, donuts, chips, cake. Almost always, it's high-fat, high-sugar treats. Even if they aren't binging, if mom brings home McDonald's, they might eat two McNuggets and a few fries. It always surprises people to find out that girls with EDs eat junk food. We think that if one wanted to starve, they'd eat only low-cal items, but you can starve and eat a little bit of what mom severs so she won't get upset and there won't be the emotional conversation about your eating. They eat all different kinds of food and still starve.
Orthorexia is a real thing and it happens to many people with EDs, but not all of them get that way. Many will, even when not binging, eat peanut butter, chips, sandwiches, whatever. When they "binge" (and to an anorexic, 300 calories in a meal could be considered a binge, no joke...to some, any eating is "a binge")...it's almost always done on junk food.
They most certainly do not all begin as orthorexics. Many don't even know why they began starving.
If I had one wish for the girls who are actively anorexic (aside from not being anorexic and just "eat more!"), it would be that they eat more healthy food, not less.
Thank you so much, @Kalikel, for this insightful and empathetic account of your experiences with this group and their approach to food.
Then I'd start bitching at them to stop eating candy and start eating some veggies. They have like 400 calories for the day and 300 of it is "Nestle Crunch." There I'd be, "For 300 calories, you could get X amount of protein and some vitamins! Eat your fruits and veggies!" One girl literally never ate anything healthy. One day, after months, I saw green beans and practically jumped for joy. When she had McDonald's, I was so happy. Meat!
Some unfriended me because of my constant, "Eat a damn vegetable!" stuff, lol. Surprisingly, many didn't. I thought for sure they would, but lots didn't.
It's too much, watching it and seeing that, even with tiny amounts of food, NO vitamins and minerals.
(Which is not o say that none ever ate a veggie.)
So there's a big difference between eating only junk (being anorexic), and eating only clean, very specific foods (orthorexic). I would not eat McDonalds (or as I like to call it, McPoisions) if someone paid me! I mean if you want to go ahead and call that meat go nuts... but we all know it isn't really meat right? lol
Lots of EDs go hand in hand. Sometimes, it really hard to diagnose and you kind of have to flip a coin to choose. Is she anorexic or bulimic? Sometimes, it's really hard to say. The girls, themselves, get frustrated because their diagnoses change. "I was bulimic, but now I'm anorexic?! You guys suck. You don't know what you're doing." They have a point, lol. I might counter it, though, with, "If you'd start eating and stop throwing up, we wouldn't have to diagnose you at all."
Diagnoses are more important for insurance companies and less important for treatment. Sometimes they're easy to call and other times, very difficult. And as someone's behavior changes, so, too, can their diagnosis(es).
There is a big difference between all of these:
Eating healthy & Orthorexia
Lifting weights & Muscle dysmorphia
Exercising & bulimia
Dieting & anorexia
Counting calories & disordered eating/anorexia/bulimia
Someone may develop anorexia after they were on a diet, but that doesn't mean that everyone who loses weight is now at a huge risk because they count their calories, KWIM? Muscle dysmorphics may start off as just regular guys lifting weight, but that doesn't mean everyone who picks up a barbell will develop a disorder.
You really don't need a DSM for this. Plain, old-fashioned common sense should tell you that everyone who eats a healthy diet - or a fad diet - is not going to end up with an ED.0 -
You can be anorexic and orthorexic. You can also be anorexic and eat junk food. If you're orthorexic, though, you'll likely end up anorexic if you don't seek help.cushman5279 wrote: »
There used to be an issue on this board. There were some bullies who would seriously pick on anorexics. I'd always try to say something nice about them because 1) I like them and 2) it was true and 3) they're often so sensitive. Nasty comments could send some of them spiraling into tears and that breaks my heart. I wanted them to see that someone gave a rat's behind. So, I'd say something nice and a bunch of them would friend me.
Nope. With the exception of one woman (who, by the way, was extremely intelligent and Ivy League educated), my patients were teens or just out of their teens. They lived at home and ate what their parents served. If mom served healthy food, they ate that. If mom gave them McDonald's, they ate that.snickerscharlie wrote: »Fabulous thread, shelley! Thanks for starting it.
Another one who thinks that allowing the thread to devolve into a debate over "good" parenting versus "bad" parenting would NOT have been the message to be gotten out of this very informative article, nor the reason the OP posted it to begin with.
Thank you.
I thought this article was really poignant and interesting.
I also think it shows that sometimes there is a great divide between "healthy eating" and disordered eating patterns and sometimes the differences are so small that we can no longer differentiate.
I can't agree
Arguably *any* dieter's preoccupation with food (quantity or quality) , especially in the beginning of weight loss, could look concerning. Beginning losers often spend a LOT of time thinking about food & planning meals, and being anxious about going over, seeing losses, eating among others in uncontrolled situations. The difference between that and an eating disorder might be small, I grant you. And that applies to anyone on any kind of diet.
But for someone who's not vulnerable, that is just a learning curve. Once you find a groove, and especially into maintenance, there's a lot less anxiety, preoccupation, time spent thinking about food etc.
The paradox is that we have a *culture* with a disordered relationship with food, an obesogenic culture. Anyone eating for health and healthy weight is going to be at odds with it and experience some strain.
You are right, we don't agree.
For most, an obsession with healthy eating will not turn into an eating disorder, however I still think the rigidity of it can be problematic. This woman seemed predisposed due to her perfectionistic/obsessive nature. The article made that clear. However the line sometimes is not so cut and dry. I think there is value in recognizing that.
But it's the same for being rigid about calories and amounts. There are people who count peas on their plate ("no more than 10") or will have no more than three bites of any food. It doesn't matter what the diet is, it's the fact of restriction and the rigid *approach* itself.
Maybe so, maybe not.
It's a googleable question, probably. Or we could ask Kalikel what kinds of diets were common among her patients, for an idea.
I'd rather not ask someone to share anything specific about work they did with clients. It's something that I consider a professional no no.
I've worked within the population and I do think diets full of rigidity can be problematic to those who may be more inclined.
She could talk about *trends* without discussing the patients themselves.
Did your patients all start with "clean eating"?
Many (most) adopted "healthy eating" but it was less of an orthorexic thing than it was a desire to eat food that was low-cal. Plus, if you tell your parents that you're a vegan, then that's a good explanation for why you don't wish to eat what they're serving. It's not that you don't want to eat food, it's that you're philosophically opposed to it!
I absolutely love the anorexics. They have a special place in my heart, for sure. I love them like people love babies, flowers or rainy days. Just something that touches you, you know? They come off as bellicose, angry and sullen at first, but deep down, they're a very sweet group of girls; it's hard not to love them. However, as a group, by they are one lying (sometimes even to themselves), secretive and conniving group of girls!
I never had a patient who remained a vegan after recovery. I'm sure some do! But none of mine did. Some get orthorexic, and that's a nightmare, for sure, but most are using it as an excuse to not eat.
One thing people are always surprised to hear is that MANY of the anorexics eat junk food. For some, it's pretty much all they eat. They starve and starve, go to the bathroom and try, unsuccessfully, to poop and then lie and starve some more. They don't eat. Then, something happens (hunger is a powerful motivator) and they crack. One girl described the binging as instinctive, bordering on primal, though she used the words, "It's like...it's like I'm an animal." They must eat. The don't want to, but they must.
Do they think, "Well, I'm starving all the time and my body is seriously malnourished. I lack all the vitamins and minerals, so I should probably have some fruits, veggies and meat"???? No! When they eat, it's often candy, donuts, chips, cake. Almost always, it's high-fat, high-sugar treats. Even if they aren't binging, if mom brings home McDonald's, they might eat two McNuggets and a few fries. It always surprises people to find out that girls with EDs eat junk food. We think that if one wanted to starve, they'd eat only low-cal items, but you can starve and eat a little bit of what mom severs so she won't get upset and there won't be the emotional conversation about your eating. They eat all different kinds of food and still starve.
Orthorexia is a real thing and it happens to many people with EDs, but not all of them get that way. Many will, even when not binging, eat peanut butter, chips, sandwiches, whatever. When they "binge" (and to an anorexic, 300 calories in a meal could be considered a binge, no joke...to some, any eating is "a binge")...it's almost always done on junk food.
They most certainly do not all begin as orthorexics. Many don't even know why they began starving.
If I had one wish for the girls who are actively anorexic (aside from not being anorexic and just "eat more!"), it would be that they eat more healthy food, not less.
Thank you so much, @Kalikel, for this insightful and empathetic account of your experiences with this group and their approach to food.
Then I'd start bitching at them to stop eating candy and start eating some veggies. They have like 400 calories for the day and 300 of it is "Nestle Crunch." There I'd be, "For 300 calories, you could get X amount of protein and some vitamins! Eat your fruits and veggies!" One girl literally never ate anything healthy. One day, after months, I saw green beans and practically jumped for joy. When she had McDonald's, I was so happy. Meat!
Some unfriended me because of my constant, "Eat a damn vegetable!" stuff, lol. Surprisingly, many didn't. I thought for sure they would, but lots didn't.
It's too much, watching it and seeing that, even with tiny amounts of food, NO vitamins and minerals.
(Which is not o say that none ever ate a veggie.)
So there's a big difference between eating only junk (being anorexic), and eating only clean, very specific foods (orthorexic). I would not eat McDonalds (or as I like to call it, McPoisions) if someone paid me! I mean if you want to go ahead and call that meat go nuts... but we all know it isn't really meat right? lol
Lots of EDs go hand in hand. Sometimes, it really hard to diagnose and you kind of have to flip a coin to choose. Is she anorexic or bulimic? Sometimes, it's really hard to say. The girls, themselves, get frustrated because their diagnoses change. "I was bulimic, but now I'm anorexic?! You guys suck. You don't know what you're doing."
There is a big difference between all of these:
Eating healthy & Orthorexia
Lifting weights & Muscle dysmorphia
Exercising & bulimia
Dieting & anorexia
Counting calories & disordered eating/anorexia/bulimia
Someone may develop anorexia after they were on a diet, but that doesn't mean that everyone who loses weight is now at a huge risk because they count their calories, KWIM? Muscle dysmorphics may start off as just regular guys lifting weight, but that doesn't mean everyone who picks up a barbell will develop a disorder.
You really don't need a DSM for this. Plain, old-fashioned common sense should tell you that everyone who eats a healthy diet - or a fad diet - is not going to end up with an ED.
Exactly! But not a lot of people have common sense!0 -
I do agree that not everyone who eats a healthy diet is going to end up with an ED.
I think the cautionary tale is to look at yourself and see if you can handle being relaxed... does it bother you if your husband tastes something off your plate? Do you feel guilty or beat yourself up if you don't feel like exercising one day? Do you, as tomatoey said, count peas on your plate?
There are distinctions between wanting to eat nutritious food because it's an admirable goal and wanting it being an issue of control and obsession.
The cautionary tale for all of us is to realize that for some people, it does sometimes cross a line. Saying that isn't an indictment of the act of healthy eating at all. Perfectly benign things often become harmful in the wrong hands on a daily basis, you know? My can of compressed air that I use to clean my keyboard killed the child of the neighbor up the street, for example.0
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