Eating Clean?

BrainyBurro

My friends I am all up for learning. So lets have a legit dialogue. I think the disconnect lies in who the subject of the conversation regarding intake is.

Are you hitting the gym and ramming the intensity through the roof, are you crossfitting, are you doing the traditional bodybuilding style types of workouts, running marathons, triathlons basically is this person exercising with a high intensity? Or is this the typical person not doing anything or doing some very low impact, low intensity exercising.

If you are going to the gym and pounding the steel. Then yes a carb loading philosophy filled with high glycemic intake will reap benefits. Especially when timed properly and when dialed in, in terms of amounts. I have seen folks reap the benefits of eating "dirty" and consuming pastries, pizza, white rice, etc. because their muscles needed it after depleting their glycogen stores.

If you are someone that participates in long distance, place whatever exercise you want here, then your intake should definitely have more carbs than the average bear. And yes I agree these folks can stray away from nutrient dense with no ill effects and some positive ones.

But if you're the average person. Who's hitting the Zumba classes or Strength and Core hour at the local Golds, are you suggesting that a diet filled with those same high sugar, highly refined insulin spiking carbs will help them in their effort to drop fat. If their muscles are not needing the glycogen, because the stores are not depleted what happens to the influx of glucose. There's no immediate need to burn it, the muscles don't need it, so that leaves only one place for it to go. At least that's my understanding. If I'm wrong then lets chat, like I said only a fool doesn't want to learn.

I agree caloric monitoring plays a huge factor in weight loss, achieving a physique and body that is healthy and performs at an optimal level. My argument is that if you are not active or not exercising with a high intensity then consuming a caloric deficit of junk will not provide the results you want. Consuming at a deficit with clean food will.

And I'm not saying its a nonstop 24x7 thing. Who the hell doesn't like cookies and pizza. I'm saying keep it in check.

Forgive any spelling or cut up sentences this was done on my iPhone.

the problem with these arguments is that the clean eaters ALWAYS resort to strawman arguments. either intentionally or purposefully. i have bolded that strawman sentence that you used above.

to the clean eaters, anybody NOT eating clean must be sitting around all day stuffing nothing but bon-bons in their face. this is not at all the case. people who follow IIFYM don't worry about individual foods, just their daily nutrient needs. if those are met, then the foods eaten to meet them are irrelevant. in practice, this means IIFYM'ers eat largely the same type of foods that clean eaters do. however IIFYM'ers have room for the occasional pop tart or bowl of ice cream or cheeseburger. they feel no shame or guilt for indulging once in a while (or in small amounts daily). to the IIFYM'er, it's all about giving your body what it needs, not about what foods you eat. to a clean eater, it's the opposite. what one eats is all important to them. eating something "dirty" is not only forbidden, but also bad. i just think that's a sad way to think and live.

give me IIFYM any day. i will never, ever adhere to any notion called clean eating, even though i may well routinely eat foods that clean eaters consider clean.

i think that, in a nutshell, is the issue. the 2 philosophies are fundamentally at odds, although in practice there is plenty of overlap in implementation.

magerum

So...through the nature of my food I have far exceeded my nutritional needs by the time I've finished dinner. I have, typically, consumed 1.5 lbs of chicken breast, & 2 lbs of veggies consisting of mixed vegetables, spinach, brocolli, cauliflower, white potato, with some almonds, cottage cheese & a protein shake by this time. Coming in around 1700 calories and several hundred percent of my micro & macro needs.

That leaves me with energy needs, aka caloires, in the range of 1300 - 2400 additional calories. Depending if I'm cutting, maintaining or slow bulking will dictate how much more. You don't get extra credit for more nutrients, how is it bad then if I get my purely energy needs from ice cream, pop tarts, cereal, cookies, and corn bread? ( I can, and will, argue that these items have nutritional value but that's a different topic.)

jwdieter

You can absolutely lose weight (and yes, get ripped too) by focusing solely on a calorie deficit. There are countless examples, here on MFP, of people who eat "dirty" and got shredded.

It's pretty silly when approached as a binary scenario - as in, a bite of ice cream changes "clean" to "dirty".

The folks with open diaries and low body fat I've seen on MFP tend to eat relatively clean, from my perspective.

I've also personally eaten 5k+/day of whatever trash was available and maintained low body fat. But that was exercising at an unsustainable level for a responsible adult. Would be irresponsible to provide a 10-cheeseburger lunch diet as an option here.

Outside of MFP, there is a general approach to attaining very low body fat. Most bodybuilders do not even attempt to get shredded with a random crap diet. Maybe they're all wrong. Maybe it doesn't matter, and all they need is a deficit.

Carol_L

So...through the nature of my food I have far exceeded my nutritional needs by the time I've finished dinner. I have, typically, consumed 1.5 lbs of chicken breast, & 2 lbs of veggies consisting of mixed vegetables, spinach, brocolli, cauliflower, white potato, with some almonds, cottage cheese & a protein shake by this time. Coming in around 1700 calories and several hundred percent of my micro & macro needs.

That leaves me with energy needs, aka caloires, in the range of 1300 - 2400 additional calories. Depending if I'm cutting, maintaining or slow bulking will dictate how much more. You don't get extra credit for more nutrients, how is it bad then if I get my purely energy needs from ice cream, pop tarts, cereal, cookies, and corn bread? ( I can, and will, argue that these items have nutritional value but that's a different topic.)

Gee....walk away for a few hours and come back to all the fun that has broken out.

The ultimate point is that you match your caloric needs to what it is that you are trying to accomplish, hit your macros and carry on. Your body does not care if your calories come from hand massaged, spoon-fed, Wagyu beef carpaccio harvested by Taoist monks under a full moon or a smokey from your BBQ. The laws of Thermodynamics do not automatically change the way they work based on what you eat.

magerum

So...through the nature of my food I have far exceeded my nutritional needs by the time I've finished dinner. I have, typically, consumed 1.5 lbs of chicken breast, & 2 lbs of veggies consisting of mixed vegetables, spinach, brocolli, cauliflower, white potato, with some almonds, cottage cheese & a protein shake by this time. Coming in around 1700 calories and several hundred percent of my micro & macro needs.

That leaves me with energy needs, aka caloires, in the range of 1300 - 2400 additional calories. Depending if I'm cutting, maintaining or slow bulking will dictate how much more. You don't get extra credit for more nutrients, how is it bad then if I get my purely energy needs from ice cream, pop tarts, cereal, cookies, and corn bread? ( I can, and will, argue that these items have nutritional value but that's a different topic.)

Gee....walk away for a few hours and come back to all the fun that has broken out.

The ultimate point is that you match your caloric needs to what it is that you are trying to accomplish, hit your macros and carry on. Your body does not care if your calories come from hand massaged, spoon-fed, Wagyu beef carpaccio harvested by Taoist monks under a full moon or a smokey from your BBQ. The laws of Thermodynamics do not automatically change the way they work based on what you eat.

My body might not, but my mind does! Gimme the KOBE!!

IpuffyheartHeelsinthegym

You can absolutely lose weight (and yes, get ripped too) by focusing solely on a calorie deficit. There are countless examples, here on MFP, of people who eat "dirty" and got shredded.

It's pretty silly when approached as a binary scenario - as in, a bite of ice cream changes "clean" to "dirty".

The folks with open diaries and low body fat I've seen on MFP tend to eat relatively clean, from my perspective.

I've also personally eaten 5k+/day of whatever trash was available and maintained low body fat. But that was exercising at an unsustainable level for a responsible adult. Would be irresponsible to provide a 10-cheeseburger lunch diet as an option here.

Outside of MFP, there is a general approach to attaining very low body fat. Most bodybuilders do not even attempt to get shredded with a random crap diet. Maybe they're all wrong. Maybe it doesn't matter, and all they need is a deficit.

have you seen some of the people who are posting that they can eat whatever they want, within a deficit? Some of them could compete right now... I mean, when its time to prep to compete, I am much more restrictive than in my off season, but I firmly believe in moderation on occasion.

Acg67

My friends I am all up for learning. So lets have a legit dialogue. I think the disconnect lies in who the subject of the conversation regarding intake is.

Are you hitting the gym and ramming the intensity through the roof, are you crossfitting, are you doing the traditional bodybuilding style types of workouts, running marathons, triathlons basically is this person exercising with a high intensity? Or is this the typical person not doing anything or doing some very low impact, low intensity exercising.

If you are going to the gym and pounding the steel. Then yes a carb loading philosophy filled with high glycemic intake will reap benefits. Especially when timed properly and when dialed in, in terms of amounts. I have seen folks reap the benefits of eating "dirty" and consuming pastries, pizza, white rice, etc. because their muscles needed it after depleting their glycogen stores.

If you are someone that participates in long distance, place whatever exercise you want here, then your intake should definitely have more carbs than the average bear. And yes I agree these folks can stray away from nutrient dense with no ill effects and some positive ones.

But if you're the average person. Who's hitting the Zumba classes or Strength and Core hour at the local Golds, are you suggesting that a diet filled with those same high sugar, highly refined insulin spiking carbs will help them in their effort to drop fat. If their muscles are not needing the glycogen, because the stores are not depleted what happens to the influx of glucose. There's no immediate need to burn it, the muscles don't need it, so that leaves only one place for it to go. At least that's my understanding. If I'm wrong then lets chat, like I said only a fool doesn't want to learn.

I agree caloric monitoring plays a huge factor in weight loss, achieving a physique and body that is healthy and performs at an optimal level. My argument is that if you are not active or not exercising with a high intensity then consuming a caloric deficit of junk will not provide the results you want. Consuming at a deficit with clean food will.

And I'm not saying its a nonstop 24x7 thing. Who the hell doesn't like cookies and pizza. I'm saying keep it in check.

Forgive any spelling or cut up sentences this was done on my iPhone.

What about evil insulin spiking protein? Would that also hinder your goals to drop fat?

As for DNL, you should prob look a tad more into it.

BurningAway

eating clean means different things to different people and you'll get a thousand different answers,

for me, it means no artificial sugar other than what is in fruits, or stevia.

no soda, no junk food , or processed foods ie. 100 calorie snack things. if it has more than 4 ingredients, i dont eat it. (with the exception of my protein powder, and protein bars).

I cook all of my food so I know what went into it and how many calories are in it.

I stay away from white pasta, white rice (thats just my personal preference) and am trying to eat gluten free (no wheat products bc I bloat).

the times I break all of these rules are when I have a cheat meal.

Clean eating or any kind of eating however, wont help your weightloss if youre eating at a surplus or at maintenance.

On the bright side, cookies and cake appear clean ..

Butter
Sugar (real)
Eggs
Flour

Wrong, butter and flour are def processed, therefore unclean

But .. But .. I can pronounce them.

*snort*

-.- never gonna live that piece of ignorance down am i lol

Bharsa1

My friends I am all up for learning. So lets have a legit dialogue. I think the disconnect lies in who the subject of the conversation regarding intake is.

Are you hitting the gym and ramming the intensity through the roof, are you crossfitting, are you doing the traditional bodybuilding style types of workouts, running marathons, triathlons basically is this person exercising with a high intensity? Or is this the typical person not doing anything or doing some very low impact, low intensity exercising.

If you are going to the gym and pounding the steel. Then yes a carb loading philosophy filled with high glycemic intake will reap benefits. Especially when timed properly and when dialed in, in terms of amounts. I have seen folks reap the benefits of eating "dirty" and consuming pastries, pizza, white rice, etc. because their muscles needed it after depleting their glycogen stores.

If you are someone that participates in long distance, place whatever exercise you want here, then your intake should definitely have more carbs than the average bear. And yes I agree these folks can stray away from nutrient dense with no ill effects and some positive ones.

But if you're the average person. Who's hitting the Zumba classes or Strength and Core hour at the local Golds, are you suggesting that a diet filled with those same high sugar, highly refined insulin spiking carbs will help them in their effort to drop fat. If their muscles are not needing the glycogen, because the stores are not depleted what happens to the influx of glucose. There's no immediate need to burn it, the muscles don't need it, so that leaves only one place for it to go. At least that's my understanding. If I'm wrong then lets chat, like I said only a fool doesn't want to learn.

I agree caloric monitoring plays a huge factor in weight loss, achieving a physique and body that is healthy and performs at an optimal level. My argument is that if you are not active or not exercising with a high intensity then consuming a caloric deficit of junk will not provide the results you want. Consuming at a deficit with clean food will.

And I'm not saying its a nonstop 24x7 thing. Who the hell doesn't like cookies and pizza. I'm saying keep it in check.

Forgive any spelling or cut up sentences this was done on my iPhone.

the problem with these arguments is that the clean eaters ALWAYS resort to strawman arguments. either intentionally or purposefully. i have bolded that strawman sentence that you used above.

to the clean eaters, anybody NOT eating clean must be sitting around all day stuffing nothing but bon-bons in their face. this is not at all the case. people who follow IIFYM don't worry about individual foods, just their daily nutrient needs. if those are met, then the foods eaten to meet them are irrelevant. in practice, this means IIFYM'ers eat largely the same type of foods that clean eaters do. however IIFYM'ers have room for the occasional pop tart or bowl of ice cream or cheeseburger. they feel no shame or guilt for indulging once in a while (or in small amounts daily). to the IIFYM'er, it's all about giving your body what it needs, not about what foods you eat. to a clean eater, it's the opposite. what one eats is all important to them. eating something "dirty" is not only forbidden, but also bad. i just think that's a sad way to think and live.

give me IIFYM any day. i will never, ever adhere to any notion called clean eating, even though i may well routinely eat foods that clean eaters consider clean.

i think that, in a nutshell, is the issue. the 2 philosophies are fundamentally at odds, although in practice there is plenty of overlap in implementation.

Please don't lump me in with any group of crazies that think 100% adherence is the only way.

I think we are arguing the same point. If you are following IIFYM or any other similar protocal in order to hit your micros and get the necessary vitamins and minerals then you are going to eat a lot of whole "clean" food, as you said above. And as I've said before have a cookie, eat some cake, grab a slice of Grimaldis you'll be okay. I just don't believe all of your carbs should come from these foods. The bulk should come from vegetables and fruits with some wild rice, oatmeal throw in on occasion.

Using the IIFYM for myslef to attain fat loss I need to be around 1900 calories a day with a 40%P-40%F-20%C breakdown while hitting the gym 4 times a week. This leaves me with 100G of carbs to consume daily if I want to lose fat. If I can get in the appropriate amount of fiber and other micros and still have left over calories to consume a donut then why the hell not. Especially in the hours following my workout when my muscles are craving glucose.

But my question is how many people, not you, but people in general eat just one donut or have just .5 cup of ice cream? And yes unfortunately there are too many people who sit around and eat nothing but potato chips, cookies, donuts, fast food and anything else as a staple of their nutritional intake and not as an occasional addition.

@AcG67.... Yes, I realize protein will raise insulin levels. But are you suggesting that the resulting insulin levels raised from eating a 16 oz Wagyu or Kobe (yes I love that stuff too) steak are the same as those raised from eating 16oz of white bread?

The bottom line is we can both show studies that prove or disprove this theory or that theory. What I have found through trial and error is do what works for you. I believe there are general principals that apply accross the board. But, during that dialing in phase that last bit that helps you go from looking good in clothes to looking good naked or from being kinda strong to that mofo is crazy is strong.....it's in that phase where personalization comes into play.

I'm glad I found this message board, I enjoy these types of discussions.

sweetpea03b

Nothing that comes from a box. No soda.. commercial juices... no fast food. Whole foods - fruits, veggies, lean meats, dairy. A good rule of thumb is to stay out of the aisles... most of what you need is on the outside perimeter of the grocery store.

Acg67

My friends I am all up for learning. So lets have a legit dialogue. I think the disconnect lies in who the subject of the conversation regarding intake is.

Are you hitting the gym and ramming the intensity through the roof, are you crossfitting, are you doing the traditional bodybuilding style types of workouts, running marathons, triathlons basically is this person exercising with a high intensity? Or is this the typical person not doing anything or doing some very low impact, low intensity exercising.

If you are going to the gym and pounding the steel. Then yes a carb loading philosophy filled with high glycemic intake will reap benefits. Especially when timed properly and when dialed in, in terms of amounts. I have seen folks reap the benefits of eating "dirty" and consuming pastries, pizza, white rice, etc. because their muscles needed it after depleting their glycogen stores.

If you are someone that participates in long distance, place whatever exercise you want here, then your intake should definitely have more carbs than the average bear. And yes I agree these folks can stray away from nutrient dense with no ill effects and some positive ones.

But if you're the average person. Who's hitting the Zumba classes or Strength and Core hour at the local Golds, are you suggesting that a diet filled with those same high sugar, highly refined insulin spiking carbs will help them in their effort to drop fat. If their muscles are not needing the glycogen, because the stores are not depleted what happens to the influx of glucose. There's no immediate need to burn it, the muscles don't need it, so that leaves only one place for it to go. At least that's my understanding. If I'm wrong then lets chat, like I said only a fool doesn't want to learn.

I agree caloric monitoring plays a huge factor in weight loss, achieving a physique and body that is healthy and performs at an optimal level. My argument is that if you are not active or not exercising with a high intensity then consuming a caloric deficit of junk will not provide the results you want. Consuming at a deficit with clean food will.

And I'm not saying its a nonstop 24x7 thing. Who the hell doesn't like cookies and pizza. I'm saying keep it in check.

Forgive any spelling or cut up sentences this was done on my iPhone.

the problem with these arguments is that the clean eaters ALWAYS resort to strawman arguments. either intentionally or purposefully. i have bolded that strawman sentence that you used above.

to the clean eaters, anybody NOT eating clean must be sitting around all day stuffing nothing but bon-bons in their face. this is not at all the case. people who follow IIFYM don't worry about individual foods, just their daily nutrient needs. if those are met, then the foods eaten to meet them are irrelevant. in practice, this means IIFYM'ers eat largely the same type of foods that clean eaters do. however IIFYM'ers have room for the occasional pop tart or bowl of ice cream or cheeseburger. they feel no shame or guilt for indulging once in a while (or in small amounts daily). to the IIFYM'er, it's all about giving your body what it needs, not about what foods you eat. to a clean eater, it's the opposite. what one eats is all important to them. eating something "dirty" is not only forbidden, but also bad. i just think that's a sad way to think and live.

give me IIFYM any day. i will never, ever adhere to any notion called clean eating, even though i may well routinely eat foods that clean eaters consider clean.

i think that, in a nutshell, is the issue. the 2 philosophies are fundamentally at odds, although in practice there is plenty of overlap in implementation.

Please don't lump me in with any group of crazies that think 100% adherence is the only way.

I think we are arguing the same point. If you are following IIFYM or any other similar protocal in order to hit your micros and get the necessary vitamins and minerals then you are going to eat a lot of whole "clean" food, as you said above. And as I've said before have a cookie, eat some cake, grab a slice of Grimaldis you'll be okay. I just don't believe all of your carbs should come from these foods. The bulk should come from vegetables and fruits with some wild rice, oatmeal throw in on occasion.

Using the IIFYM for myslef to attain fat loss I need to be around 1900 calories a day with a 40%P-40%F-20%C breakdown while hitting the gym 4 times a week. This leaves me with 100G of carbs to consume daily if I want to lose fat. If I can get in the appropriate amount of fiber and other micros and still have left over calories to consume a donut then why the hell not. Especially in the hours following my workout when my muscles are craving glucose.

But my question is how many people, not you, but people in general eat just one donut or have just .5 cup of ice cream? And yes unfortunately there are too many people who sit around and eat nothing but potato chips, cookies, donuts, fast food and anything else as a staple of their nutritional intake and not as an occasional addition.

@AcG67.... Yes, I realize protein will raise insulin levels. But are you suggesting that the resulting insulin levels raised from eating a 16 oz Wagyu or Kobe (yes I love that stuff too) steak are the same as those raised from eating 16oz of white bread?

The bottom line is we can both show studies that prove or disprove this theory or that theory. What I have found through trial and error is do what works for you. I believe there are general principals that apply accross the board. But, during that dialing in phase that last bit that helps you go from looking good in clothes to looking good naked or from being kinda strong to that mofo is crazy is strong.....it's in that phase where personalization comes into play.

I'm glad I found this message board, I enjoy these types of discussions.

Not as much as the common reference food for the GI index, but as much if not more than white pasta, brown rice, french fries, popcorn and potato chips. BTW if you use evil uber processed why protein powder, then yes it would spike insulin higher than white bread

"The bottom line is we can both show studies that prove or disprove this theory or that theory."

"If you consume, picka a number that is your deficit, calories a day of pre-packaged fake garbage food (breakfast cereals, ice cream, dessert, almost anything from a fast food restaraunt, etc) compared to that same number of calories of lean protein, vegetables, fruits and real fats (not transfats or hydrogenated BS), you will not only not lose weight, you will probably gain weight and see a decline in your health. "

Awaits studies to show the above ^, make sure cals and macros are held constant so they don't confound things

xstarxdustx

Agree with much of the above. A calorie deficit despite what is dietarily involved. Eating 'clean' does have many different interpretations and what I've drawn from many of those and interpreted them as is less processed foods, more 'whole' foods-fruits, veg, etc.


Incorporating more fruit, veg, whole grain carbs etc makes my body feel better than when I eat a lot of refined/processed/junk food, but that is me. I don't feel as sluggish which I enjoy.

Not sure what types of foods your diet primarily consists of right now, but if you're curious, incorporate more fruit, veg, lean protein, etc into your diet and see how you feel. If it leaves you feeling better, great. Something you might want to stick with. If you don't feel any different from when you (again not sure if you do) eat processed/refined foods, then don't continue.

Ultimately the bottom line with all of this->weight loss, 'clean' eating, fitness and health, etc. is doing what's makes your body feel the best and that definitely varies from person to person. Only you know what's right for you body.

Bharsa1

Yes, I agree with you if I consume 1900 calories a day combined with the appropriate Macros then I will see weight come off. I'm not arguing this point.

I will not agree that hitting those numbers (not going over) and consuming all of the macros from KFC, McDonalds, Frozen Pizzas, Ice Cream and any food you can imagine will also lead to a healthy body. Which for me is the number one priority and this is the disconnect between us. Beyond that I will say just look around you at the local mall and on the streets the problem with these foods is that people in general cannot limit their consumption and consequently will continue to overeat when they use that as the staple of their intake. IIFYM and philosophies similar to it acknowledge it's purpose is not to promote health but fat loss.

Yes, I'm aware whey powders especially ones loaded with leucine will amp up insulin compared to those foods, but let's compare apples to apples. A liquid is absorbed much quicker than a solid, so with that in mind lets' compare that protein drink to any number of the pre workout/energy drinks out there whose main stable is carbs. Would you say that the insulin release from these drinks are the same, less or greater than the protein?

Brother, I'm not on here to ridicule or be ridiculed. I'm here to learn and point out what I have seen work for not only myself but many others that I have been helping and watch be helped with a similar approach that I take. That is to eat real foods, get the bulk of your carbs from vegetables and fruits occasional whole grains, consume lean proteins and real fats not ones made in a chemistry lab. Adhere to this 80% of the time and get into the gym and hit it.

You obviously are different and able to eat fast food, refined carbohydrates, trans fats, basically whatever you want and have been able to achieve a very low BF % by just operating at a calorie deficit. I wish I was like you and I'm sure many on here on do to. I could not and found myself feeling like **** and not seeing any improvements when I didn't monitor my intake despite hitting the gym. Good on you brother, I've enjoyed this exchange.

cmeiron

I will not agree that hitting those numbers (not going over) and consuming all of the macros from KFC, McDonalds, Frozen Pizzas, Ice Cream and any food you can imagine will also lead to a healthy body.

It's pretty much impossible to hit your macros and calorie goals by JUST eating those things. You're being pretty hyperbolic.

"I only eat fast food and fried stuff and ice cream all day, every day", said no follower of IIFYM ever.

You can work reasonable amounts of this stuff into your day, however, and still be "healthy".

Acg67

Yes, I'm aware whey powders especially ones loaded with leucine will amp up insulin compared to those foods, but let's compare apples to apples. A liquid is absorbed much quicker than a solid, so with that in mind lets' compare that protein drink to any number of the pre workout/energy drinks out there whose main stable is carbs. Would you say that the insulin release from these drinks are the same, less or greater than the protein?

Most of the pres I use don't contain a lot if any carbs, but i'll still say whey would produce a higher insulin AUC

Brother, I'm not on here to ridicule or be ridiculed. I'm here to learn and point out what I have seen work for not only myself but many others that I have been helping and watch be helped with a similar approach that I take. That is to eat real foods, get the bulk of your carbs from vegetables and fruits occasional whole grains, consume lean proteins and real fats not ones made in a chemistry lab. Adhere to this 80% of the time and get into the gym and hit it.

What if I told you grassfed beef was chock full of your so called evil tans fats? Also lol to whole grains

You obviously are different and able to eat fast food, refined carbohydrates, trans fats, basically whatever you want and have been able to achieve a very low BF % by just operating at a calorie deficit. I wish I was like you and I'm sure many on here on do to. I could not and found myself feeling like **** and not seeing any improvements when I didn't monitor my intake despite hitting the gym. Good on you brother, I've enjoyed this exchange.

No, anyone barring certain metabolic conditions or intolerances could eat whatever they want and drop bf, you still have yet to produce any evidence that "junk" food would cause weight gain or stop weight loss in it's track compared with matched cals and macros of "clean food"