CICO
Replies
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queenliz99 wrote: »Tinawood40 wrote: »Ok so I believe in CICO - I've lost 33 lbs and I'm sold. But I do wonder sometimes why some weeks I don't lose weight then others I lose more than usual. My diet is much the same all the time - I log super carefully and weigh my food. If it's all CICO - then every 3500 calories down should result in a lb lost. Then I hear - weight loss is not linear - why not ? If it's simple math then every time I eat at a 3500 calorie deficit I should lose a pound. I have gone for a couple of 2 week stretches with no losses eating and logging the same food. And what about plateau's ? How the hell does that happen ???
Our bodies are not machines
Yes they are. All physical processes in the body can be modeled with mathematical equations. We may need to develop some math to do it but it can be done.
sorry, but that is a pretty absurd claim. If our bodies were machines then when one was bulking with a structured progressive overload program you would be able to convert 100% of excess calories to muscle building and have zero fat gains, or, conversely, one would be able to cut with a structured lifting program and adequate protein intake and have 100% fat loss with zero muscle loss.
our bodies are complex systems, yes, but they are not machines…
Define a machine then.
Why don't you define it for us, since you are making the claim???0 -
Thanks for the constructive comments! Most were of that sort.
What drives me crazy is when people say stuff like the body isn’t a machine and you can’t mathematically model it. YES WE CAN for all physical processes. It might take a lot of work and experimentation to figure it out but it can be done. It might take some new math to do it also. A lot of the math we have now came about to model the physics of phenomenon that we observed. At a Decision Control Conference I attended a few years ago, Edwardo Sontag of Rutgers University gave the plenary talk and stated that he believed that the furtherance of math would be accomplished with the motivating force being trying to understand biological systems (He is a PhD mathematician and is the head or was the head of Rutger’s Quantitative Biology program). When I did my masters at UC Santa Barbara in Electrical Engineering, I attended a guest lecture from some people who modeled calcium dynamics of cows. Apparently a certain percentage of cows would get calcium deficient and die when they started lactating. They had a treatment that cut the numbers down but they thought they might be able to do better. They did some dynamic systems modeling that has a lot more complexity than just assigning some probability distribution to parameters. This type of modeling typically has some non-linear terms and usually has magnitude and rate limit terms in them (all physical processes are magnitude and rate limited). The equations are differential equations that are integrated to estimate a future state of the system. Elements in the equations may be of a random nature. They were able to come up with a model that directed them to treat the cows with the problems in a very different way than they were treating them and they SIGNIFICANTLY reduced the mortality rate of the cows that went into this calcium deficiency state. I also was associates with some folks working on their doctorate that were modeling drug delivery schedules for the treatment of AIDS patients.
I do think that there are significant things that can be discovered to help outlier people and those who plateau. Those who say it’s majoring in the minors or is insignificant didn’t offer any studies as evidence and only gave their opinion as if it was fact (there was one poster that reference some material). Prove it that what you said is true! I wouldn’t ask someone dieting to try crazy things. There may be simple things (notice I said may be) that you could tell them, and each one of us, that would be easy to implement. I’m not trying or promoting some plan that will cost money. I didn’t ever say CICO was broke but said there are possibilities for improving it. If you don’t have something to contribute and just want to naysay, then please by all means ignore the post.
I was athletic for a long time when younger and then I started having a lot of allergy problems and would get sick a lot which made it very difficult to lose weight. I also developed gout and have had some injuries too. All those made it hard to exercise. I remember saying things like, if your fat why don’t they just go run 10-miles, lazy bums! Now I understand not everyone can go out and run 10-miles for various reasons. I tried to lose weight through exercise only numerous times but always ended up sick or injured. I tried to diet once before and was successful but I didn’t maintain it because it made me crazy hungry. I’m doing an IF diet now (21:3) that I think is way more sustainable because I get to eat tell full each day which allows me to fast the next day. I’ve lost 32 lbs in 14 weeks. I do hope I can keep it off. This type of dieting, counting my calories, and other things, some of which I still hope to discover, I think will enable me to do it. I am doing cardio 4xweek and am lifting weights twice a week presently. I feel way better doing that now than I’ve felt in a lot of years.
@blambo61
Could you PLEASE write the thoughts you are conveying in simpler terms.....I REALLY am trying to follow but your way of writing and citing the data/studies confuses the Hell out of me.....
It is probably just me.....and I apologize if I am the only with brain hurtz.....1 -
HippySkoppy wrote: »Thanks for the constructive comments! Most were of that sort.
What drives me crazy is when people say stuff like the body isn’t a machine and you can’t mathematically model it. YES WE CAN for all physical processes. It might take a lot of work and experimentation to figure it out but it can be done. It might take some new math to do it also. A lot of the math we have now came about to model the physics of phenomenon that we observed. At a Decision Control Conference I attended a few years ago, Edwardo Sontag of Rutgers University gave the plenary talk and stated that he believed that the furtherance of math would be accomplished with the motivating force being trying to understand biological systems (He is a PhD mathematician and is the head or was the head of Rutger’s Quantitative Biology program). When I did my masters at UC Santa Barbara in Electrical Engineering, I attended a guest lecture from some people who modeled calcium dynamics of cows. Apparently a certain percentage of cows would get calcium deficient and die when they started lactating. They had a treatment that cut the numbers down but they thought they might be able to do better. They did some dynamic systems modeling that has a lot more complexity than just assigning some probability distribution to parameters. This type of modeling typically has some non-linear terms and usually has magnitude and rate limit terms in them (all physical processes are magnitude and rate limited). The equations are differential equations that are integrated to estimate a future state of the system. Elements in the equations may be of a random nature. They were able to come up with a model that directed them to treat the cows with the problems in a very different way than they were treating them and they SIGNIFICANTLY reduced the mortality rate of the cows that went into this calcium deficiency state. I also was associates with some folks working on their doctorate that were modeling drug delivery schedules for the treatment of AIDS patients.
I do think that there are significant things that can be discovered to help outlier people and those who plateau. Those who say it’s majoring in the minors or is insignificant didn’t offer any studies as evidence and only gave their opinion as if it was fact (there was one poster that reference some material). Prove it that what you said is true! I wouldn’t ask someone dieting to try crazy things. There may be simple things (notice I said may be) that you could tell them, and each one of us, that would be easy to implement. I’m not trying or promoting some plan that will cost money. I didn’t ever say CICO was broke but said there are possibilities for improving it. If you don’t have something to contribute and just want to naysay, then please by all means ignore the post.
I was athletic for a long time when younger and then I started having a lot of allergy problems and would get sick a lot which made it very difficult to lose weight. I also developed gout and have had some injuries too. All those made it hard to exercise. I remember saying things like, if your fat why don’t they just go run 10-miles, lazy bums! Now I understand not everyone can go out and run 10-miles for various reasons. I tried to lose weight through exercise only numerous times but always ended up sick or injured. I tried to diet once before and was successful but I didn’t maintain it because it made me crazy hungry. I’m doing an IF diet now (21:3) that I think is way more sustainable because I get to eat tell full each day which allows me to fast the next day. I’ve lost 32 lbs in 14 weeks. I do hope I can keep it off. This type of dieting, counting my calories, and other things, some of which I still hope to discover, I think will enable me to do it. I am doing cardio 4xweek and am lifting weights twice a week presently. I feel way better doing that now than I’ve felt in a lot of years.
@blambo61
Could you PLEASE write the thoughts you are conveying in simpler terms.....I REALLY am trying to follow but your way of writing and citing the data/studies confuses the Hell out of me.....
It is probably just me.....and I apologize if I am the only with brain hurtz.....
It's not you, @HippySkoppy.1 -
In the dictionary next to minutiThanks for the constructive comments! Most were of that sort.
What drives me crazy is when people say stuff like the body isn’t a machine and you can’t mathematically model it. YES WE CAN for all physical processes. It might take a lot of work and experimentation to figure it out but it can be done. It might take some new math to do it also. A lot of the math we have now came about to model the physics of phenomenon that we observed. At a Decision Control Conference I attended a few years ago, Edwardo Sontag of Rutgers University gave the plenary talk and stated that he believed that the furtherance of math would be accomplished with the motivating force being trying to understand biological systems (He is a PhD mathematician and is the head or was the head of Rutger’s Quantitative Biology program). When I did my masters at UC Santa Barbara in Electrical Engineering (I studied Control Theory which is a branch of applied mathematics where understanding the system your trying to control is important), I attended a guest lecture from some people who modeled calcium dynamics of cows. Apparently a certain percentage of cows would get calcium deficient and die when they started lactating. They had a treatment that cut the numbers down but they thought they might be able to do better. They did some dynamic systems modeling that has a lot more complexity than just assigning some probability distribution to parameters. This type of modeling typically has some non-linear terms and usually has magnitude and rate limit terms in them (all physical processes are magnitude and rate limited). The equations are differential equations that are integrated to estimate a future state of the system. Elements in the equations may be of a random nature. They were able to come up with a model that directed them to treat the cows with the problems in a very different way than they were treating them and they SIGNIFICANTLY reduced the mortality rate of the cows that went into this calcium deficiency state. I also was associates with some folks working on their doctorate that were modeling drug delivery schedules for the treatment of AIDS patients.
I do think that there are significant things that can be discovered to help outlier people and those who plateau. Those who say it’s majoring in the minors or is insignificant didn’t offer any studies as evidence and only gave their opinion as if it was fact (there was one poster that reference some material). Prove it that what you said is true! I wouldn’t ask someone dieting to try crazy things. There may be simple things (notice I said may be) that you could tell them, and each one of us, that would be easy to implement. I’m not trying or promoting some plan that will cost money. I didn’t ever say CICO was broke but said there are possibilities for improving it. If you don’t have something to contribute and just want to naysay, then please by all means ignore the post.
I was athletic for a long time when younger and then I started having a lot of allergy problems and would get sick a lot which made it very difficult to lose weight. I also developed gout and have had some injuries too. All those made it hard to exercise. I remember saying things like, if your fat why don’t they just go run 10-miles, lazy bums! Now I understand not everyone can go out and run 10-miles for various reasons. I tried to lose weight through exercise only numerous times but always ended up sick or injured. I tried to diet once before and was successful but I didn’t maintain it because it made me crazy hungry. I’m doing an IF diet now (21:3) that I think is way more sustainable because I get to eat tell full each day which allows me to fast the next day. I’ve lost 32 lbs in 14 weeks. I do hope I can keep it off. This type of dieting, counting my calories, and other things, some of which I still hope to discover, I think will enable me to do it. I am doing cardio 4xweek and am lifting weights twice a week presently. I feel way better doing that now than I’ve felt in a lot of years.
I counted calories once in college when I was running a lot because I ate a lot and was curious how much I was eating. It was between 4000 to 5000 cals a day. I couldn't gain weight to save myself at the time. Right now, I think I'm loosing more than the standard 3500 cal/day model would predict. My base cals needed are probably higher than what MFP estimated. Also, here goes, my IF diet might be playing a role also because for various reasons, one being that the body is rate limited in producing the enzymes needed to lay down fat as fast as I'm putting away the cals in the time I eat. I know food is in the stomach for a long time, but I'm sure the mechanical mixing isn't complete and absorption isn't as complete as way when you eat a candy bar between meals where probably every single calorie is absorbed.
i am just commenting on the bolded part..
why does it need improving? There is not one person on the face of the planet that eat less calories then they burn and does not lose weight…unless you know of someone that gains weight in a calorie deficit, I really don't see what the point is here…
More than likely you thought you were eating 4000 to 5000 calories a day in college, and you were not. Were you weighing all your food in college? If not your estimating was probably off by 30-40% and you were eating less than you thought.
To absorption rates, that has already been shown by @stevencloser to be negligible and he even linked a study.0 -
HippySkoppy wrote: »Thanks for the constructive comments! Most were of that sort.
What drives me crazy is when people say stuff like the body isn’t a machine and you can’t mathematically model it. YES WE CAN for all physical processes. It might take a lot of work and experimentation to figure it out but it can be done. It might take some new math to do it also. A lot of the math we have now came about to model the physics of phenomenon that we observed. At a Decision Control Conference I attended a few years ago, Edwardo Sontag of Rutgers University gave the plenary talk and stated that he believed that the furtherance of math would be accomplished with the motivating force being trying to understand biological systems (He is a PhD mathematician and is the head or was the head of Rutger’s Quantitative Biology program). When I did my masters at UC Santa Barbara in Electrical Engineering, I attended a guest lecture from some people who modeled calcium dynamics of cows. Apparently a certain percentage of cows would get calcium deficient and die when they started lactating. They had a treatment that cut the numbers down but they thought they might be able to do better. They did some dynamic systems modeling that has a lot more complexity than just assigning some probability distribution to parameters. This type of modeling typically has some non-linear terms and usually has magnitude and rate limit terms in them (all physical processes are magnitude and rate limited). The equations are differential equations that are integrated to estimate a future state of the system. Elements in the equations may be of a random nature. They were able to come up with a model that directed them to treat the cows with the problems in a very different way than they were treating them and they SIGNIFICANTLY reduced the mortality rate of the cows that went into this calcium deficiency state. I also was associates with some folks working on their doctorate that were modeling drug delivery schedules for the treatment of AIDS patients.
I do think that there are significant things that can be discovered to help outlier people and those who plateau. Those who say it’s majoring in the minors or is insignificant didn’t offer any studies as evidence and only gave their opinion as if it was fact (there was one poster that reference some material). Prove it that what you said is true! I wouldn’t ask someone dieting to try crazy things. There may be simple things (notice I said may be) that you could tell them, and each one of us, that would be easy to implement. I’m not trying or promoting some plan that will cost money. I didn’t ever say CICO was broke but said there are possibilities for improving it. If you don’t have something to contribute and just want to naysay, then please by all means ignore the post.
I was athletic for a long time when younger and then I started having a lot of allergy problems and would get sick a lot which made it very difficult to lose weight. I also developed gout and have had some injuries too. All those made it hard to exercise. I remember saying things like, if your fat why don’t they just go run 10-miles, lazy bums! Now I understand not everyone can go out and run 10-miles for various reasons. I tried to lose weight through exercise only numerous times but always ended up sick or injured. I tried to diet once before and was successful but I didn’t maintain it because it made me crazy hungry. I’m doing an IF diet now (21:3) that I think is way more sustainable because I get to eat tell full each day which allows me to fast the next day. I’ve lost 32 lbs in 14 weeks. I do hope I can keep it off. This type of dieting, counting my calories, and other things, some of which I still hope to discover, I think will enable me to do it. I am doing cardio 4xweek and am lifting weights twice a week presently. I feel way better doing that now than I’ve felt in a lot of years.
@blambo61
Could you PLEASE write the thoughts you are conveying in simpler terms.....I REALLY am trying to follow but your way of writing and citing the data/studies confuses the Hell out of me.....
It is probably just me.....and I apologize if I am the only with brain hurtz.....
Please see my post in the middle of the thread. I think I explained there well. I just think a refinement of the model could be useful. That doesn't destroy the simple model and just adds to it.
In the post you quoted, I'm trying to address a lot of posts so it is fragmented. Sorry about that. I can't address each one each time.0 -
HippySkoppy wrote: »Thanks for the constructive comments! Most were of that sort.
What drives me crazy is when people say stuff like the body isn’t a machine and you can’t mathematically model it. YES WE CAN for all physical processes. It might take a lot of work and experimentation to figure it out but it can be done. It might take some new math to do it also. A lot of the math we have now came about to model the physics of phenomenon that we observed. At a Decision Control Conference I attended a few years ago, Edwardo Sontag of Rutgers University gave the plenary talk and stated that he believed that the furtherance of math would be accomplished with the motivating force being trying to understand biological systems (He is a PhD mathematician and is the head or was the head of Rutger’s Quantitative Biology program). When I did my masters at UC Santa Barbara in Electrical Engineering, I attended a guest lecture from some people who modeled calcium dynamics of cows. Apparently a certain percentage of cows would get calcium deficient and die when they started lactating. They had a treatment that cut the numbers down but they thought they might be able to do better. They did some dynamic systems modeling that has a lot more complexity than just assigning some probability distribution to parameters. This type of modeling typically has some non-linear terms and usually has magnitude and rate limit terms in them (all physical processes are magnitude and rate limited). The equations are differential equations that are integrated to estimate a future state of the system. Elements in the equations may be of a random nature. They were able to come up with a model that directed them to treat the cows with the problems in a very different way than they were treating them and they SIGNIFICANTLY reduced the mortality rate of the cows that went into this calcium deficiency state. I also was associates with some folks working on their doctorate that were modeling drug delivery schedules for the treatment of AIDS patients.
I do think that there are significant things that can be discovered to help outlier people and those who plateau. Those who say it’s majoring in the minors or is insignificant didn’t offer any studies as evidence and only gave their opinion as if it was fact (there was one poster that reference some material). Prove it that what you said is true! I wouldn’t ask someone dieting to try crazy things. There may be simple things (notice I said may be) that you could tell them, and each one of us, that would be easy to implement. I’m not trying or promoting some plan that will cost money. I didn’t ever say CICO was broke but said there are possibilities for improving it. If you don’t have something to contribute and just want to naysay, then please by all means ignore the post.
I was athletic for a long time when younger and then I started having a lot of allergy problems and would get sick a lot which made it very difficult to lose weight. I also developed gout and have had some injuries too. All those made it hard to exercise. I remember saying things like, if your fat why don’t they just go run 10-miles, lazy bums! Now I understand not everyone can go out and run 10-miles for various reasons. I tried to lose weight through exercise only numerous times but always ended up sick or injured. I tried to diet once before and was successful but I didn’t maintain it because it made me crazy hungry. I’m doing an IF diet now (21:3) that I think is way more sustainable because I get to eat tell full each day which allows me to fast the next day. I’ve lost 32 lbs in 14 weeks. I do hope I can keep it off. This type of dieting, counting my calories, and other things, some of which I still hope to discover, I think will enable me to do it. I am doing cardio 4xweek and am lifting weights twice a week presently. I feel way better doing that now than I’ve felt in a lot of years.
@blambo61
Could you PLEASE write the thoughts you are conveying in simpler terms.....I REALLY am trying to follow but your way of writing and citing the data/studies confuses the Hell out of me.....
It is probably just me.....and I apologize if I am the only with brain hurtz.....
It's not you, @HippySkoppy.
@kkenseth Thank God for that.....I thought I may finally have slipped over into neurons imploding rather than firing
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HippySkoppy wrote: »Thanks for the constructive comments! Most were of that sort.
What drives me crazy is when people say stuff like the body isn’t a machine and you can’t mathematically model it. YES WE CAN for all physical processes. It might take a lot of work and experimentation to figure it out but it can be done. It might take some new math to do it also. A lot of the math we have now came about to model the physics of phenomenon that we observed. At a Decision Control Conference I attended a few years ago, Edwardo Sontag of Rutgers University gave the plenary talk and stated that he believed that the furtherance of math would be accomplished with the motivating force being trying to understand biological systems (He is a PhD mathematician and is the head or was the head of Rutger’s Quantitative Biology program). When I did my masters at UC Santa Barbara in Electrical Engineering, I attended a guest lecture from some people who modeled calcium dynamics of cows. Apparently a certain percentage of cows would get calcium deficient and die when they started lactating. They had a treatment that cut the numbers down but they thought they might be able to do better. They did some dynamic systems modeling that has a lot more complexity than just assigning some probability distribution to parameters. This type of modeling typically has some non-linear terms and usually has magnitude and rate limit terms in them (all physical processes are magnitude and rate limited). The equations are differential equations that are integrated to estimate a future state of the system. Elements in the equations may be of a random nature. They were able to come up with a model that directed them to treat the cows with the problems in a very different way than they were treating them and they SIGNIFICANTLY reduced the mortality rate of the cows that went into this calcium deficiency state. I also was associates with some folks working on their doctorate that were modeling drug delivery schedules for the treatment of AIDS patients.
I do think that there are significant things that can be discovered to help outlier people and those who plateau. Those who say it’s majoring in the minors or is insignificant didn’t offer any studies as evidence and only gave their opinion as if it was fact (there was one poster that reference some material). Prove it that what you said is true! I wouldn’t ask someone dieting to try crazy things. There may be simple things (notice I said may be) that you could tell them, and each one of us, that would be easy to implement. I’m not trying or promoting some plan that will cost money. I didn’t ever say CICO was broke but said there are possibilities for improving it. If you don’t have something to contribute and just want to naysay, then please by all means ignore the post.
I was athletic for a long time when younger and then I started having a lot of allergy problems and would get sick a lot which made it very difficult to lose weight. I also developed gout and have had some injuries too. All those made it hard to exercise. I remember saying things like, if your fat why don’t they just go run 10-miles, lazy bums! Now I understand not everyone can go out and run 10-miles for various reasons. I tried to lose weight through exercise only numerous times but always ended up sick or injured. I tried to diet once before and was successful but I didn’t maintain it because it made me crazy hungry. I’m doing an IF diet now (21:3) that I think is way more sustainable because I get to eat tell full each day which allows me to fast the next day. I’ve lost 32 lbs in 14 weeks. I do hope I can keep it off. This type of dieting, counting my calories, and other things, some of which I still hope to discover, I think will enable me to do it. I am doing cardio 4xweek and am lifting weights twice a week presently. I feel way better doing that now than I’ve felt in a lot of years.
@blambo61
Could you PLEASE write the thoughts you are conveying in simpler terms.....I REALLY am trying to follow but your way of writing and citing the data/studies confuses the Hell out of me.....
It is probably just me.....and I apologize if I am the only with brain hurtz.....
Please see my post in the middle of the thread. I think I explained there well. I just think a refinement of the model could be useful. That doesn't destroy the simple model and just adds to it.
In the post you quoted, I'm trying to address a lot of posts so it is fragmented. Sorry about that. I can't address each one each time.
Dude,
this is it in nutshell for you!
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In the dictionary next to minutiThanks for the constructive comments! Most were of that sort.
What drives me crazy is when people say stuff like the body isn’t a machine and you can’t mathematically model it. YES WE CAN for all physical processes. It might take a lot of work and experimentation to figure it out but it can be done. It might take some new math to do it also. A lot of the math we have now came about to model the physics of phenomenon that we observed. At a Decision Control Conference I attended a few years ago, Edwardo Sontag of Rutgers University gave the plenary talk and stated that he believed that the furtherance of math would be accomplished with the motivating force being trying to understand biological systems (He is a PhD mathematician and is the head or was the head of Rutger’s Quantitative Biology program). When I did my masters at UC Santa Barbara in Electrical Engineering (I studied Control Theory which is a branch of applied mathematics where understanding the system your trying to control is important), I attended a guest lecture from some people who modeled calcium dynamics of cows. Apparently a certain percentage of cows would get calcium deficient and die when they started lactating. They had a treatment that cut the numbers down but they thought they might be able to do better. They did some dynamic systems modeling that has a lot more complexity than just assigning some probability distribution to parameters. This type of modeling typically has some non-linear terms and usually has magnitude and rate limit terms in them (all physical processes are magnitude and rate limited). The equations are differential equations that are integrated to estimate a future state of the system. Elements in the equations may be of a random nature. They were able to come up with a model that directed them to treat the cows with the problems in a very different way than they were treating them and they SIGNIFICANTLY reduced the mortality rate of the cows that went into this calcium deficiency state. I also was associates with some folks working on their doctorate that were modeling drug delivery schedules for the treatment of AIDS patients.
I do think that there are significant things that can be discovered to help outlier people and those who plateau. Those who say it’s majoring in the minors or is insignificant didn’t offer any studies as evidence and only gave their opinion as if it was fact (there was one poster that reference some material). Prove it that what you said is true! I wouldn’t ask someone dieting to try crazy things. There may be simple things (notice I said may be) that you could tell them, and each one of us, that would be easy to implement. I’m not trying or promoting some plan that will cost money. I didn’t ever say CICO was broke but said there are possibilities for improving it. If you don’t have something to contribute and just want to naysay, then please by all means ignore the post.
I was athletic for a long time when younger and then I started having a lot of allergy problems and would get sick a lot which made it very difficult to lose weight. I also developed gout and have had some injuries too. All those made it hard to exercise. I remember saying things like, if your fat why don’t they just go run 10-miles, lazy bums! Now I understand not everyone can go out and run 10-miles for various reasons. I tried to lose weight through exercise only numerous times but always ended up sick or injured. I tried to diet once before and was successful but I didn’t maintain it because it made me crazy hungry. I’m doing an IF diet now (21:3) that I think is way more sustainable because I get to eat tell full each day which allows me to fast the next day. I’ve lost 32 lbs in 14 weeks. I do hope I can keep it off. This type of dieting, counting my calories, and other things, some of which I still hope to discover, I think will enable me to do it. I am doing cardio 4xweek and am lifting weights twice a week presently. I feel way better doing that now than I’ve felt in a lot of years.
I counted calories once in college when I was running a lot because I ate a lot and was curious how much I was eating. It was between 4000 to 5000 cals a day. I couldn't gain weight to save myself at the time. Right now, I think I'm loosing more than the standard 3500 cal/day model would predict. My base cals needed are probably higher than what MFP estimated. Also, here goes, my IF diet might be playing a role also because for various reasons, one being that the body is rate limited in producing the enzymes needed to lay down fat as fast as I'm putting away the cals in the time I eat. I know food is in the stomach for a long time, but I'm sure the mechanical mixing isn't complete and absorption isn't as complete as way when you eat a candy bar between meals where probably every single calorie is absorbed.
i am just commenting on the bolded part..
why does it need improving? There is not one person on the face of the planet that eat less calories then they burn and does not lose weight…unless you know of someone that gains weight in a calorie deficit, I really don't see what the point is here…
More than likely you thought you were eating 4000 to 5000 calories a day in college, and you were not. Were you weighing all your food in college? If not your estimating was probably off by 30-40% and you were eating less than you thought.
To absorption rates, that has already been shown by @stevencloser to be negligible and he even linked a study.
I've explained my motivation behind trying to improve it. I don't know if my cals in college were accurate but I ate like a horse and couldn't gain. I ran track at the time (800 meters).0 -
Thanks for the constructive comments! Most were of that sort.
What drives me crazy is when people say stuff like the body isn’t a machine and you can’t mathematically model it. YES WE CAN for all physical processes. It might take a lot of work and experimentation to figure it out but it can be done. It might take some new math to do it also. A lot of the math we have now came about to model the physics of phenomenon that we observed. At a Decision Control Conference I attended a few years ago, Edwardo Sontag of Rutgers University gave the plenary talk and stated that he believed that the furtherance of math would be accomplished with the motivating force being trying to understand biological systems (He is a PhD mathematician and is the head or was the head of Rutger’s Quantitative Biology program). When I did my masters at UC Santa Barbara in Electrical Engineering (I studied Control Theory which is a branch of applied mathematics where understanding the system your trying to control is important), I attended a guest lecture from some people who modeled calcium dynamics of cows. Apparently a certain percentage of cows would get calcium deficient and die when they started lactating. They had a treatment that cut the numbers down but they thought they might be able to do better. They did some dynamic systems modeling that has a lot more complexity than just assigning some probability distribution to parameters. This type of modeling typically has some non-linear terms and usually has magnitude and rate limit terms in them (all physical processes are magnitude and rate limited). The equations are differential equations that are integrated to estimate a future state of the system. Elements in the equations may be of a random nature. They were able to come up with a model that directed them to treat the cows with the problems in a very different way than they were treating them and they SIGNIFICANTLY reduced the mortality rate of the cows that went into this calcium deficiency state. I also was associates with some folks working on their doctorate that were modeling drug delivery schedules for the treatment of AIDS patients.
I do think that there are significant things that can be discovered to help outlier people and those who plateau. Those who say it’s majoring in the minors or is insignificant didn’t offer any studies as evidence and only gave their opinion as if it was fact (there was one poster that reference some material). Prove it that what you said is true! I wouldn’t ask someone dieting to try crazy things. There may be simple things (notice I said may be) that you could tell them, and each one of us, that would be easy to implement. I’m not trying or promoting some plan that will cost money. I didn’t ever say CICO was broke but said there are possibilities for improving it. If you don’t have something to contribute and just want to naysay, then please by all means ignore the post.
I was athletic for a long time when younger and then I started having a lot of allergy problems and would get sick a lot which made it very difficult to lose weight. I also developed gout and have had some injuries too. All those made it hard to exercise. I remember saying things like, if your fat why don’t they just go run 10-miles, lazy bums! Now I understand not everyone can go out and run 10-miles for various reasons. I tried to lose weight through exercise only numerous times but always ended up sick or injured. I tried to diet once before and was successful but I didn’t maintain it because it made me crazy hungry. I’m doing an IF diet now (21:3) that I think is way more sustainable because I get to eat tell full each day which allows me to fast the next day. I’ve lost 32 lbs in 14 weeks. I do hope I can keep it off. This type of dieting, counting my calories, and other things, some of which I still hope to discover, I think will enable me to do it. I am doing cardio 4xweek and am lifting weights twice a week presently. I feel way better doing that now than I’ve felt in a lot of years.
I counted calories once in college when I was running a lot because I ate a lot and was curious how much I was eating. It was between 4000 to 5000 cals a day. I couldn't gain weight to save myself at the time. Right now, I think I'm loosing more than the standard 3500 cal/day model would predict. My base cals needed are probably higher than what MFP estimated. Also, here goes, my IF diet might be playing a role also because for various reasons, one being that the body is rate limited in producing the enzymes needed to lay down fat as fast as I'm putting away the cals in the time I eat. I know food is in the stomach for a long time, but I'm sure the mechanical mixing isn't complete and absorption isn't as complete as way when you eat a candy bar between meals where probably every single calorie is absorbed.
There are much more practical suggestions for developing a healthy lifetstyle and relationship with food than obsessing over formulating a mathematical model to explain what even the most advanced scientists haven't yet been able to explain.
CICO in the absolute sense has not even been able to be calculated by top scientists.
However, the body? Well, it still will factor in all the unknowns we can't really grasp and it is the perfect calculator.
We really are stuck making the best guess.0 -
queenliz99 wrote: »HippySkoppy wrote: »Thanks for the constructive comments! Most were of that sort.
What drives me crazy is when people say stuff like the body isn’t a machine and you can’t mathematically model it. YES WE CAN for all physical processes. It might take a lot of work and experimentation to figure it out but it can be done. It might take some new math to do it also. A lot of the math we have now came about to model the physics of phenomenon that we observed. At a Decision Control Conference I attended a few years ago, Edwardo Sontag of Rutgers University gave the plenary talk and stated that he believed that the furtherance of math would be accomplished with the motivating force being trying to understand biological systems (He is a PhD mathematician and is the head or was the head of Rutger’s Quantitative Biology program). When I did my masters at UC Santa Barbara in Electrical Engineering, I attended a guest lecture from some people who modeled calcium dynamics of cows. Apparently a certain percentage of cows would get calcium deficient and die when they started lactating. They had a treatment that cut the numbers down but they thought they might be able to do better. They did some dynamic systems modeling that has a lot more complexity than just assigning some probability distribution to parameters. This type of modeling typically has some non-linear terms and usually has magnitude and rate limit terms in them (all physical processes are magnitude and rate limited). The equations are differential equations that are integrated to estimate a future state of the system. Elements in the equations may be of a random nature. They were able to come up with a model that directed them to treat the cows with the problems in a very different way than they were treating them and they SIGNIFICANTLY reduced the mortality rate of the cows that went into this calcium deficiency state. I also was associates with some folks working on their doctorate that were modeling drug delivery schedules for the treatment of AIDS patients.
I do think that there are significant things that can be discovered to help outlier people and those who plateau. Those who say it’s majoring in the minors or is insignificant didn’t offer any studies as evidence and only gave their opinion as if it was fact (there was one poster that reference some material). Prove it that what you said is true! I wouldn’t ask someone dieting to try crazy things. There may be simple things (notice I said may be) that you could tell them, and each one of us, that would be easy to implement. I’m not trying or promoting some plan that will cost money. I didn’t ever say CICO was broke but said there are possibilities for improving it. If you don’t have something to contribute and just want to naysay, then please by all means ignore the post.
I was athletic for a long time when younger and then I started having a lot of allergy problems and would get sick a lot which made it very difficult to lose weight. I also developed gout and have had some injuries too. All those made it hard to exercise. I remember saying things like, if your fat why don’t they just go run 10-miles, lazy bums! Now I understand not everyone can go out and run 10-miles for various reasons. I tried to lose weight through exercise only numerous times but always ended up sick or injured. I tried to diet once before and was successful but I didn’t maintain it because it made me crazy hungry. I’m doing an IF diet now (21:3) that I think is way more sustainable because I get to eat tell full each day which allows me to fast the next day. I’ve lost 32 lbs in 14 weeks. I do hope I can keep it off. This type of dieting, counting my calories, and other things, some of which I still hope to discover, I think will enable me to do it. I am doing cardio 4xweek and am lifting weights twice a week presently. I feel way better doing that now than I’ve felt in a lot of years.
@blambo61
Could you PLEASE write the thoughts you are conveying in simpler terms.....I REALLY am trying to follow but your way of writing and citing the data/studies confuses the Hell out of me.....
It is probably just me.....and I apologize if I am the only with brain hurtz.....
Please see my post in the middle of the thread. I think I explained there well. I just think a refinement of the model could be useful. That doesn't destroy the simple model and just adds to it.
In the post you quoted, I'm trying to address a lot of posts so it is fragmented. Sorry about that. I can't address each one each time.
Dude,
this is it in nutshell for you!
I've seen it. It is a good chart. I'm not having problems loosing weight. Doesn't go contrary to anything I've posted. I'm not suggesting every jane and joe needs to do what I'm interested in. I'm saying it is an area that can be looked at further. I'm sure some people have already done or are doing what I've suggested. I've looked some and found some things and will look more.0 -
Adding a bunch of minute complications to something that already works might be a good way to discourage a whole lot of people.
The beauty of CICO is in its simplicity and accessibility.0 -
HippySkoppy wrote: »HippySkoppy wrote: »Thanks for the constructive comments! Most were of that sort.
What drives me crazy is when people say stuff like the body isn’t a machine and you can’t mathematically model it. YES WE CAN for all physical processes. It might take a lot of work and experimentation to figure it out but it can be done. It might take some new math to do it also. A lot of the math we have now came about to model the physics of phenomenon that we observed. At a Decision Control Conference I attended a few years ago, Edwardo Sontag of Rutgers University gave the plenary talk and stated that he believed that the furtherance of math would be accomplished with the motivating force being trying to understand biological systems (He is a PhD mathematician and is the head or was the head of Rutger’s Quantitative Biology program). When I did my masters at UC Santa Barbara in Electrical Engineering, I attended a guest lecture from some people who modeled calcium dynamics of cows. Apparently a certain percentage of cows would get calcium deficient and die when they started lactating. They had a treatment that cut the numbers down but they thought they might be able to do better. They did some dynamic systems modeling that has a lot more complexity than just assigning some probability distribution to parameters. This type of modeling typically has some non-linear terms and usually has magnitude and rate limit terms in them (all physical processes are magnitude and rate limited). The equations are differential equations that are integrated to estimate a future state of the system. Elements in the equations may be of a random nature. They were able to come up with a model that directed them to treat the cows with the problems in a very different way than they were treating them and they SIGNIFICANTLY reduced the mortality rate of the cows that went into this calcium deficiency state. I also was associates with some folks working on their doctorate that were modeling drug delivery schedules for the treatment of AIDS patients.
I do think that there are significant things that can be discovered to help outlier people and those who plateau. Those who say it’s majoring in the minors or is insignificant didn’t offer any studies as evidence and only gave their opinion as if it was fact (there was one poster that reference some material). Prove it that what you said is true! I wouldn’t ask someone dieting to try crazy things. There may be simple things (notice I said may be) that you could tell them, and each one of us, that would be easy to implement. I’m not trying or promoting some plan that will cost money. I didn’t ever say CICO was broke but said there are possibilities for improving it. If you don’t have something to contribute and just want to naysay, then please by all means ignore the post.
I was athletic for a long time when younger and then I started having a lot of allergy problems and would get sick a lot which made it very difficult to lose weight. I also developed gout and have had some injuries too. All those made it hard to exercise. I remember saying things like, if your fat why don’t they just go run 10-miles, lazy bums! Now I understand not everyone can go out and run 10-miles for various reasons. I tried to lose weight through exercise only numerous times but always ended up sick or injured. I tried to diet once before and was successful but I didn’t maintain it because it made me crazy hungry. I’m doing an IF diet now (21:3) that I think is way more sustainable because I get to eat tell full each day which allows me to fast the next day. I’ve lost 32 lbs in 14 weeks. I do hope I can keep it off. This type of dieting, counting my calories, and other things, some of which I still hope to discover, I think will enable me to do it. I am doing cardio 4xweek and am lifting weights twice a week presently. I feel way better doing that now than I’ve felt in a lot of years.
@blambo61
Could you PLEASE write the thoughts you are conveying in simpler terms.....I REALLY am trying to follow but your way of writing and citing the data/studies confuses the Hell out of me.....
It is probably just me.....and I apologize if I am the only with brain hurtz.....
It's not you, @HippySkoppy.
@kkenseth Thank God for that.....I thought I may finally have slipped over into neurons imploding rather than firingjennifer_417 wrote: »Adding a bunch of minute complications to something that already works might be a good way to discourage a whole lot of people.
The beauty of CICO is in its simplicity and accessibility.
I haven't promoted any dieting method to anyone except CICO! I'm promoting getting more knowledge, then if it make sense, recommendations could be made.0 -
HippySkoppy wrote: »HippySkoppy wrote: »Thanks for the constructive comments! Most were of that sort.
What drives me crazy is when people say stuff like the body isn’t a machine and you can’t mathematically model it. YES WE CAN for all physical processes. It might take a lot of work and experimentation to figure it out but it can be done. It might take some new math to do it also. A lot of the math we have now came about to model the physics of phenomenon that we observed. At a Decision Control Conference I attended a few years ago, Edwardo Sontag of Rutgers University gave the plenary talk and stated that he believed that the furtherance of math would be accomplished with the motivating force being trying to understand biological systems (He is a PhD mathematician and is the head or was the head of Rutger’s Quantitative Biology program). When I did my masters at UC Santa Barbara in Electrical Engineering, I attended a guest lecture from some people who modeled calcium dynamics of cows. Apparently a certain percentage of cows would get calcium deficient and die when they started lactating. They had a treatment that cut the numbers down but they thought they might be able to do better. They did some dynamic systems modeling that has a lot more complexity than just assigning some probability distribution to parameters. This type of modeling typically has some non-linear terms and usually has magnitude and rate limit terms in them (all physical processes are magnitude and rate limited). The equations are differential equations that are integrated to estimate a future state of the system. Elements in the equations may be of a random nature. They were able to come up with a model that directed them to treat the cows with the problems in a very different way than they were treating them and they SIGNIFICANTLY reduced the mortality rate of the cows that went into this calcium deficiency state. I also was associates with some folks working on their doctorate that were modeling drug delivery schedules for the treatment of AIDS patients.
I do think that there are significant things that can be discovered to help outlier people and those who plateau. Those who say it’s majoring in the minors or is insignificant didn’t offer any studies as evidence and only gave their opinion as if it was fact (there was one poster that reference some material). Prove it that what you said is true! I wouldn’t ask someone dieting to try crazy things. There may be simple things (notice I said may be) that you could tell them, and each one of us, that would be easy to implement. I’m not trying or promoting some plan that will cost money. I didn’t ever say CICO was broke but said there are possibilities for improving it. If you don’t have something to contribute and just want to naysay, then please by all means ignore the post.
I was athletic for a long time when younger and then I started having a lot of allergy problems and would get sick a lot which made it very difficult to lose weight. I also developed gout and have had some injuries too. All those made it hard to exercise. I remember saying things like, if your fat why don’t they just go run 10-miles, lazy bums! Now I understand not everyone can go out and run 10-miles for various reasons. I tried to lose weight through exercise only numerous times but always ended up sick or injured. I tried to diet once before and was successful but I didn’t maintain it because it made me crazy hungry. I’m doing an IF diet now (21:3) that I think is way more sustainable because I get to eat tell full each day which allows me to fast the next day. I’ve lost 32 lbs in 14 weeks. I do hope I can keep it off. This type of dieting, counting my calories, and other things, some of which I still hope to discover, I think will enable me to do it. I am doing cardio 4xweek and am lifting weights twice a week presently. I feel way better doing that now than I’ve felt in a lot of years.
@blambo61
Could you PLEASE write the thoughts you are conveying in simpler terms.....I REALLY am trying to follow but your way of writing and citing the data/studies confuses the Hell out of me.....
It is probably just me.....and I apologize if I am the only with brain hurtz.....
It's not you, @HippySkoppy.
@kkenseth Thank God for that.....I thought I may finally have slipped over into neurons imploding rather than firingjennifer_417 wrote: »Adding a bunch of minute complications to something that already works might be a good way to discourage a whole lot of people.
The beauty of CICO is in its simplicity and accessibility.
I haven't promoted any dieting method to anyone except CICO! I'm promoting getting more knowledge, then if it make sense, recommendations could be made.
But why complicate it?0 -
This whole thread is interesting for some of us no doubt...but for sure it is one of the reasons why a lot of people are searching/looking for magic...
They are confused enough as it is.
0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »Thanks for the constructive comments! Most were of that sort.
What drives me crazy is when people say stuff like the body isn’t a machine and you can’t mathematically model it. YES WE CAN for all physical processes. It might take a lot of work and experimentation to figure it out but it can be done. It might take some new math to do it also. A lot of the math we have now came about to model the physics of phenomenon that we observed. At a Decision Control Conference I attended a few years ago, Edwardo Sontag of Rutgers University gave the plenary talk and stated that he believed that the furtherance of math would be accomplished with the motivating force being trying to understand biological systems (He is a PhD mathematician and is the head or was the head of Rutger’s Quantitative Biology program). When I did my masters at UC Santa Barbara in Electrical Engineering (I studied Control Theory which is a branch of applied mathematics where understanding the system your trying to control is important), I attended a guest lecture from some people who modeled calcium dynamics of cows. Apparently a certain percentage of cows would get calcium deficient and die when they started lactating. They had a treatment that cut the numbers down but they thought they might be able to do better. They did some dynamic systems modeling that has a lot more complexity than just assigning some probability distribution to parameters. This type of modeling typically has some non-linear terms and usually has magnitude and rate limit terms in them (all physical processes are magnitude and rate limited). The equations are differential equations that are integrated to estimate a future state of the system. Elements in the equations may be of a random nature. They were able to come up with a model that directed them to treat the cows with the problems in a very different way than they were treating them and they SIGNIFICANTLY reduced the mortality rate of the cows that went into this calcium deficiency state. I also was associates with some folks working on their doctorate that were modeling drug delivery schedules for the treatment of AIDS patients.
I do think that there are significant things that can be discovered to help outlier people and those who plateau. Those who say it’s majoring in the minors or is insignificant didn’t offer any studies as evidence and only gave their opinion as if it was fact (there was one poster that reference some material). Prove it that what you said is true! I wouldn’t ask someone dieting to try crazy things. There may be simple things (notice I said may be) that you could tell them, and each one of us, that would be easy to implement. I’m not trying or promoting some plan that will cost money. I didn’t ever say CICO was broke but said there are possibilities for improving it. If you don’t have something to contribute and just want to naysay, then please by all means ignore the post.
I was athletic for a long time when younger and then I started having a lot of allergy problems and would get sick a lot which made it very difficult to lose weight. I also developed gout and have had some injuries too. All those made it hard to exercise. I remember saying things like, if your fat why don’t they just go run 10-miles, lazy bums! Now I understand not everyone can go out and run 10-miles for various reasons. I tried to lose weight through exercise only numerous times but always ended up sick or injured. I tried to diet once before and was successful but I didn’t maintain it because it made me crazy hungry. I’m doing an IF diet now (21:3) that I think is way more sustainable because I get to eat tell full each day which allows me to fast the next day. I’ve lost 32 lbs in 14 weeks. I do hope I can keep it off. This type of dieting, counting my calories, and other things, some of which I still hope to discover, I think will enable me to do it. I am doing cardio 4xweek and am lifting weights twice a week presently. I feel way better doing that now than I’ve felt in a lot of years.
I counted calories once in college when I was running a lot because I ate a lot and was curious how much I was eating. It was between 4000 to 5000 cals a day. I couldn't gain weight to save myself at the time. Right now, I think I'm loosing more than the standard 3500 cal/day model would predict. My base cals needed are probably higher than what MFP estimated. Also, here goes, my IF diet might be playing a role also because for various reasons, one being that the body is rate limited in producing the enzymes needed to lay down fat as fast as I'm putting away the cals in the time I eat. I know food is in the stomach for a long time, but I'm sure the mechanical mixing isn't complete and absorption isn't as complete as way when you eat a candy bar between meals where probably every single calorie is absorbed.
There are much more practical suggestions for developing a healthy lifetstyle and relationship with food than obsessing over formulating a mathematical model to explain what even the most advanced scientists haven't yet been able to explain.
CICO in the absolute sense has not even been able to be calculated by top scientists.
However, the body? Well, it still will factor in all the unknowns we can't really grasp and it is the perfect calculator.
We really are stuck making the best guess.
Doing the modelling I suggested isn’t practicle for everyone for sure. You need heavy hitters in math, biology, and chemistry. Obsessing about something is how progress can be made. People at places like UC Santa Barabara do have some of the best scientists in the world and are making progress on these type of things.0 -
queenliz99 wrote: »HippySkoppy wrote: »HippySkoppy wrote: »Thanks for the constructive comments! Most were of that sort.
What drives me crazy is when people say stuff like the body isn’t a machine and you can’t mathematically model it. YES WE CAN for all physical processes. It might take a lot of work and experimentation to figure it out but it can be done. It might take some new math to do it also. A lot of the math we have now came about to model the physics of phenomenon that we observed. At a Decision Control Conference I attended a few years ago, Edwardo Sontag of Rutgers University gave the plenary talk and stated that he believed that the furtherance of math would be accomplished with the motivating force being trying to understand biological systems (He is a PhD mathematician and is the head or was the head of Rutger’s Quantitative Biology program). When I did my masters at UC Santa Barbara in Electrical Engineering, I attended a guest lecture from some people who modeled calcium dynamics of cows. Apparently a certain percentage of cows would get calcium deficient and die when they started lactating. They had a treatment that cut the numbers down but they thought they might be able to do better. They did some dynamic systems modeling that has a lot more complexity than just assigning some probability distribution to parameters. This type of modeling typically has some non-linear terms and usually has magnitude and rate limit terms in them (all physical processes are magnitude and rate limited). The equations are differential equations that are integrated to estimate a future state of the system. Elements in the equations may be of a random nature. They were able to come up with a model that directed them to treat the cows with the problems in a very different way than they were treating them and they SIGNIFICANTLY reduced the mortality rate of the cows that went into this calcium deficiency state. I also was associates with some folks working on their doctorate that were modeling drug delivery schedules for the treatment of AIDS patients.
I do think that there are significant things that can be discovered to help outlier people and those who plateau. Those who say it’s majoring in the minors or is insignificant didn’t offer any studies as evidence and only gave their opinion as if it was fact (there was one poster that reference some material). Prove it that what you said is true! I wouldn’t ask someone dieting to try crazy things. There may be simple things (notice I said may be) that you could tell them, and each one of us, that would be easy to implement. I’m not trying or promoting some plan that will cost money. I didn’t ever say CICO was broke but said there are possibilities for improving it. If you don’t have something to contribute and just want to naysay, then please by all means ignore the post.
I was athletic for a long time when younger and then I started having a lot of allergy problems and would get sick a lot which made it very difficult to lose weight. I also developed gout and have had some injuries too. All those made it hard to exercise. I remember saying things like, if your fat why don’t they just go run 10-miles, lazy bums! Now I understand not everyone can go out and run 10-miles for various reasons. I tried to lose weight through exercise only numerous times but always ended up sick or injured. I tried to diet once before and was successful but I didn’t maintain it because it made me crazy hungry. I’m doing an IF diet now (21:3) that I think is way more sustainable because I get to eat tell full each day which allows me to fast the next day. I’ve lost 32 lbs in 14 weeks. I do hope I can keep it off. This type of dieting, counting my calories, and other things, some of which I still hope to discover, I think will enable me to do it. I am doing cardio 4xweek and am lifting weights twice a week presently. I feel way better doing that now than I’ve felt in a lot of years.
@blambo61
Could you PLEASE write the thoughts you are conveying in simpler terms.....I REALLY am trying to follow but your way of writing and citing the data/studies confuses the Hell out of me.....
It is probably just me.....and I apologize if I am the only with brain hurtz.....
It's not you, @HippySkoppy.
@kkenseth Thank God for that.....I thought I may finally have slipped over into neurons imploding rather than firingjennifer_417 wrote: »Adding a bunch of minute complications to something that already works might be a good way to discourage a whole lot of people.
The beauty of CICO is in its simplicity and accessibility.
I haven't promoted any dieting method to anyone except CICO! I'm promoting getting more knowledge, then if it make sense, recommendations could be made.
But why complicate it?
Why improve anything? Computers are complicated right? Should they not have been invented?0 -
BurnWithBarn2015 wrote: »This whole thread is interesting for some of us no doubt...but for sure it is one of the reasons why a lot of people are searching/looking for magic...
They are confused enough as it is.
Sorry, there might be better places to discuss this. I don't want people to mix thinks up and look for magic bullets.0 -
jennifer_417 wrote: »Adding a bunch of minute complications to something that already works might be a good way to discourage a whole lot of people.
The beauty of CICO is in its simplicity and accessibility.
Bears repeating.
If you want something else to take on board, here are my thoughts.
OP, You are reducing this to a matter of physical and mathematical functions, and I can tell you right now that food is a much more complicated subject than that.
We all have a relationship with food, and for those of us who have become overweight, it's pretty much guaranteed to be a dysfunctional one. That relationship can carry with it a host of lovely companions like guilt, denial, shame, scapegoating, self-loathing, and a host of other issues.
Unless and until a person is able to sift through all this baggage that comes along for the ride when it comes to food, every effort to get somewhere with dieting will ultimately fail.
Frankly, and I am being blunt here, OP... you are striking me as a person desperate for answers, but you are looking in the wrong place.0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »jennifer_417 wrote: »Adding a bunch of minute complications to something that already works might be a good way to discourage a whole lot of people.
The beauty of CICO is in its simplicity and accessibility.
Bears repeating.
If you want something else to take on board, here are my thoughts.
OP, You are reducing this to a matter of physical and mathematical functions, and I can tell you right now that food is a much more complicated subject than that.
We all have a relationship with food, and for those of us who have become overweight, it's pretty much guaranteed to be a dysfunctional one. That relationship can carry with it a host of lovely companions like guilt, denial, shame, scapegoating, self-loathing, and a host of other issues.
Unless and until a person is able to sift through all this baggage that comes along for the ride when it comes to food, every effort to get somewhere with dieting will ultimately fail.
Frankly, and I am being blunt here, OP... you are striking me as a person desperate for answers, but you are looking in the wrong place.
I agree that there are a lot of mental and psychological issues with loosing weight as you stated and I think you are wise to remember that.
There is some tie-in here with that though. If more understanding of the physical side were known and good easy recommendations made, then it could help those that struggle.
I probably should take this elsewhere. I will be blunt too. I don't think many people here understand a lot about math and what I'm saying so a lot of it falls on deaf ears. I do think that there are a lot of people here with some good physiology knowledge (a lot better than mine). But until the two get together, progress in what I've suggested won't get very far. I'm not desperate, just curious.0 -
BurnWithBarn2015 wrote: »This whole thread is interesting for some of us no doubt...but for sure it is one of the reasons why a lot of people are searching/looking for magic...
They are confused enough as it is.
Sorry, there might be better places to discuss this. I don't want people to mix thinks up and look for magic bullets.
sorry OP you opened this thread, and for many people out there CICO is already difficult and what you are talking about is even more confusing for them.
Thats why i said why make it so hard...keep it simple. 0 -
CICO is still a thing?0
-
HippySkoppy wrote: »HippySkoppy wrote: »Thanks for the constructive comments! Most were of that sort.
What drives me crazy is when people say stuff like the body isn’t a machine and you can’t mathematically model it. YES WE CAN for all physical processes. It might take a lot of work and experimentation to figure it out but it can be done. It might take some new math to do it also. A lot of the math we have now came about to model the physics of phenomenon that we observed. At a Decision Control Conference I attended a few years ago, Edwardo Sontag of Rutgers University gave the plenary talk and stated that he believed that the furtherance of math would be accomplished with the motivating force being trying to understand biological systems (He is a PhD mathematician and is the head or was the head of Rutger’s Quantitative Biology program). When I did my masters at UC Santa Barbara in Electrical Engineering, I attended a guest lecture from some people who modeled calcium dynamics of cows. Apparently a certain percentage of cows would get calcium deficient and die when they started lactating. They had a treatment that cut the numbers down but they thought they might be able to do better. They did some dynamic systems modeling that has a lot more complexity than just assigning some probability distribution to parameters. This type of modeling typically has some non-linear terms and usually has magnitude and rate limit terms in them (all physical processes are magnitude and rate limited). The equations are differential equations that are integrated to estimate a future state of the system. Elements in the equations may be of a random nature. They were able to come up with a model that directed them to treat the cows with the problems in a very different way than they were treating them and they SIGNIFICANTLY reduced the mortality rate of the cows that went into this calcium deficiency state. I also was associates with some folks working on their doctorate that were modeling drug delivery schedules for the treatment of AIDS patients.
I do think that there are significant things that can be discovered to help outlier people and those who plateau. Those who say it’s majoring in the minors or is insignificant didn’t offer any studies as evidence and only gave their opinion as if it was fact (there was one poster that reference some material). Prove it that what you said is true! I wouldn’t ask someone dieting to try crazy things. There may be simple things (notice I said may be) that you could tell them, and each one of us, that would be easy to implement. I’m not trying or promoting some plan that will cost money. I didn’t ever say CICO was broke but said there are possibilities for improving it. If you don’t have something to contribute and just want to naysay, then please by all means ignore the post.
I was athletic for a long time when younger and then I started having a lot of allergy problems and would get sick a lot which made it very difficult to lose weight. I also developed gout and have had some injuries too. All those made it hard to exercise. I remember saying things like, if your fat why don’t they just go run 10-miles, lazy bums! Now I understand not everyone can go out and run 10-miles for various reasons. I tried to lose weight through exercise only numerous times but always ended up sick or injured. I tried to diet once before and was successful but I didn’t maintain it because it made me crazy hungry. I’m doing an IF diet now (21:3) that I think is way more sustainable because I get to eat tell full each day which allows me to fast the next day. I’ve lost 32 lbs in 14 weeks. I do hope I can keep it off. This type of dieting, counting my calories, and other things, some of which I still hope to discover, I think will enable me to do it. I am doing cardio 4xweek and am lifting weights twice a week presently. I feel way better doing that now than I’ve felt in a lot of years.
@blambo61
Could you PLEASE write the thoughts you are conveying in simpler terms.....I REALLY am trying to follow but your way of writing and citing the data/studies confuses the Hell out of me.....
It is probably just me.....and I apologize if I am the only with brain hurtz.....
It's not you, @HippySkoppy.
@kkenseth Thank God for that.....I thought I may finally have slipped over into neurons imploding rather than firing
Read between the lines, it's a lot easier. What he's really saying is quite easy to understand and has been from the very first post he made on the other thread.0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »jennifer_417 wrote: »Adding a bunch of minute complications to something that already works might be a good way to discourage a whole lot of people.
The beauty of CICO is in its simplicity and accessibility.
Bears repeating.
If you want something else to take on board, here are my thoughts.
OP, You are reducing this to a matter of physical and mathematical functions, and I can tell you right now that food is a much more complicated subject than that.
We all have a relationship with food, and for those of us who have become overweight, it's pretty much guaranteed to be a dysfunctional one. That relationship can carry with it a host of lovely companions like guilt, denial, shame, scapegoating, self-loathing, and a host of other issues.
Unless and until a person is able to sift through all this baggage that comes along for the ride when it comes to food, every effort to get somewhere with dieting will ultimately fail.
Frankly, and I am being blunt here, OP... you are striking me as a person desperate for answers, but you are looking in the wrong place.
I agree that there are a lot of mental and psychological issues with loosing weight as you stated and I think you are wise to remember that.
There is some tie-in here with that though. If more understanding of the physical side were known and good easy recommendations made, then it could help those that struggle.
I probably should take this elsewhere. I will be blunt too. I don't think many people here have a clue about math and what I'm saying so a lot of it falls on deaf ears. I do think that there are a lot of people here with some good physiology knowledge (a lot better than mine). But until the two get together, progress in what I've suggested won't get very far. I'm not desperate, just curious.
I lost 23 pounds in 6 months, and have been maintaining for 6 months. That's all the numbers I need. Your complicated engineering math is great - for engineering. It's completely unnecessary for weight loss and health maintenance.0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »jennifer_417 wrote: »Adding a bunch of minute complications to something that already works might be a good way to discourage a whole lot of people.
The beauty of CICO is in its simplicity and accessibility.
Bears repeating.
If you want something else to take on board, here are my thoughts.
OP, You are reducing this to a matter of physical and mathematical functions, and I can tell you right now that food is a much more complicated subject than that.
We all have a relationship with food, and for those of us who have become overweight, it's pretty much guaranteed to be a dysfunctional one. That relationship can carry with it a host of lovely companions like guilt, denial, shame, scapegoating, self-loathing, and a host of other issues.
Unless and until a person is able to sift through all this baggage that comes along for the ride when it comes to food, every effort to get somewhere with dieting will ultimately fail.
Frankly, and I am being blunt here, OP... you are striking me as a person desperate for answers, but you are looking in the wrong place.
I agree that there are a lot of mental and psychological issues with loosing weight as you stated and I think you are wise to remember that.
There is some tie-in here with that though. If more understanding of the physical side were known and good easy recommendations made, then it could help those that struggle.
I probably should take this elsewhere. I will be blunt too. I don't think many people here have a clue about math and what I'm saying so a lot of it falls on deaf ears. I do think that there are a lot of people here with some good physiology knowledge (a lot better than mine). But until the two get together, progress in what I've suggested won't get very far. I'm not desperate, just curious.
Give some practical suggestions, then.
You are the one who wants to bring more to the table. Well, bring it.
What do you think this break-through in math will do for the person struggling?0 -
Edit because too snarky and I know I will eventually regret it.0
-
jeramiahandkate wrote: »CICO is still a thing?
How do you think people lose/gain/maintain weight?0 -
Didn't think my reply was that complex. I stated right at the start that CICO is the beginning.
I do believe there is individual variation though. That isn't an excuse (stinks, but not an excuse). Some people are able to maintain a lower weight while eating more and/or moving less.
My brother and I grew up in the same home eating the same food and running around the neighborhood, riding our bikes, etc. He was always slim and I was always thick.
My 10 year old daughter is about 5 foot tall and 110 pounds. I'm 5'6 an presently over 200 pounds. She can out eat me anytime and usually does. Heck, she eats as much as my 6'1 220ish husband. She does have recess at school, but no special exercise program or sports. I walk if the weather is any good at all, about an hour.
Which is a long way of saying that it isn't all that helpful to shout CICO at someone who is struggling. Yes, they may need to eat less/move more, but that doesn't mean that they aren't presently following the guidelines on the site that are supposed to produce weight loss.
I was 200 pounds and my adult height at age 13. I've been as high as 280. Lowest weight I've ever achieved at my adult height was about 160 and that was eating 800-1000 calories a day/high protein. Ate that way for about 8 months to get there. Couldn't maintain it, tried to find a moderate spot to maintain at, might have been able to stick at 175, but had a lot of stress (multiple moves, loss) and here I am at it again....1200 or less a day because I am hoping to find something I can stick with.
0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »jennifer_417 wrote: »Adding a bunch of minute complications to something that already works might be a good way to discourage a whole lot of people.
The beauty of CICO is in its simplicity and accessibility.
Bears repeating.
If you want something else to take on board, here are my thoughts.
OP, You are reducing this to a matter of physical and mathematical functions, and I can tell you right now that food is a much more complicated subject than that.
We all have a relationship with food, and for those of us who have become overweight, it's pretty much guaranteed to be a dysfunctional one. That relationship can carry with it a host of lovely companions like guilt, denial, shame, scapegoating, self-loathing, and a host of other issues.
Unless and until a person is able to sift through all this baggage that comes along for the ride when it comes to food, every effort to get somewhere with dieting will ultimately fail.
Frankly, and I am being blunt here, OP... you are striking me as a person desperate for answers, but you are looking in the wrong place.
I agree that there are a lot of mental and psychological issues with loosing weight as you stated and I think you are wise to remember that.
There is some tie-in here with that though. If more understanding of the physical side were known and good easy recommendations made, then it could help those that struggle.
I probably should take this elsewhere. I will be blunt too. I don't think many people here have a clue about math and what I'm saying so a lot of it falls on deaf ears. I do think that there are a lot of people here with some good physiology knowledge (a lot better than mine). But until the two get together, progress in what I've suggested won't get very far. I'm not desperate, just curious.
Give some practical suggestions, then.
You are the one who wants to bring more to the table. Well, bring it.
What do you think this break-through in math will do for the person struggling?
The model would have to be developed 1st to make practicle recommendations.0 -
jennifer_417 wrote: »Edit because too snarky and I know I will eventually regret it.
I hate it when that happens
0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »jennifer_417 wrote: »Adding a bunch of minute complications to something that already works might be a good way to discourage a whole lot of people.
The beauty of CICO is in its simplicity and accessibility.
Bears repeating.
If you want something else to take on board, here are my thoughts.
OP, You are reducing this to a matter of physical and mathematical functions, and I can tell you right now that food is a much more complicated subject than that.
We all have a relationship with food, and for those of us who have become overweight, it's pretty much guaranteed to be a dysfunctional one. That relationship can carry with it a host of lovely companions like guilt, denial, shame, scapegoating, self-loathing, and a host of other issues.
Unless and until a person is able to sift through all this baggage that comes along for the ride when it comes to food, every effort to get somewhere with dieting will ultimately fail.
Frankly, and I am being blunt here, OP... you are striking me as a person desperate for answers, but you are looking in the wrong place.
I agree that there are a lot of mental and psychological issues with loosing weight as you stated and I think you are wise to remember that.
There is some tie-in here with that though. If more understanding of the physical side were known and good easy recommendations made, then it could help those that struggle.
I probably should take this elsewhere. I will be blunt too. I don't think many people here have a clue about math and what I'm saying so a lot of it falls on deaf ears. I do think that there are a lot of people here with some good physiology knowledge (a lot better than mine). But until the two get together, progress in what I've suggested won't get very far. I'm not desperate, just curious.
Give some practical suggestions, then.
You are the one who wants to bring more to the table. Well, bring it.
What do you think this break-through in math will do for the person struggling?
The model would have to be developed 1st to make practicle recommendations.
Looks like a good project for you then.0
This discussion has been closed.
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