Study finds vegetarian diets may actually be worse for the environment
Replies
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TheopolisAmbroiseIII wrote: »PikaKnight wrote: »Thin_Beauty94 wrote: »Your point? I'm a proud vegetarian and don't care what others think of it. It's my choice and if anyone has a playing they can screw themselves. I don't care.
Maybe he's just sharing an interesting article? Why so hostile? He's not telling anyone to stop being a vegetarian. Sheesh.
You'd be hostile, too, if you were vitamin B, and iron deficient. Imagine seeing everyone eating delicious food and you're there with your couscous and tabouli smoothie. Hostility.
but...it doesn't look delicious! Steak tartares and oysters, snails and roaches, pungent game meat and fatty beef steaks and veals, bloody sausages',unidentified meats nuggets and hot-dogs...
Thanks a lot. Now I really want nuggets and venison stew.0 -
What the article linked actually says:The researchers acknowledge that their findings may be somewhat surprising in light of the zeitgeist over meat's impact. "These perhaps counterintuitive results are primarily due to USDA recommendations for greater caloric intake of fruits, vegetables, dairy, and fish/seafood, which have relatively high resource use and emissions per calorie," they write in Environment Systems & Decisions....
Inevitably, producing far greater amounts of foods like broccoli to compensate for the calories lost from meat and other high-energy food sources involves larger amounts of energy, water and emissions than any simple kilo-for-kilo comparison of environmental footprint allows. Take a look at the graphic here to see how the impact of foods is reordered when they're ranked by calorie content as opposed to by weight.
"There's a complex relationship between diet and the environment," said Michelle Tom, one of the team. "What is good for us health-wise isn't always what's best for the environment. That's important for public officials to know and for them to be cognisant of these tradeoffs as they develop or continue to develop dietary guidelines in the future."
Update: The researchers did not find that vegetarians or vegetarianism are harmful to the environment, or that producing vegetables is more harmful to the environment than producing meat.
What they found, in light of the data they examined, is that producing some vegetables and other foods results in high use of natural resources – and that eating more of those foods (as recommended for health by the USDA) in two particular scenarios results in higher energy use, blue water footprint and greenhouse gas emissions.0 -
ericGold15 wrote: »
They wouldn't be wrong either, though.0 -
ericGold15 wrote: »
Speak for yourself, if you cannot contain the urge. But don't do it for me, since I could not care less.MarziPanda95 wrote: »You're the kind of vegetarian... ...
I did not start this troll thread;
I am not the one throwing out snide insults;
Or FUD.
And I don't have to rationalize my lifestyle or treatment of life.
I am quite able and willing, however, to stomp on any turkeys who feel the need to belittle vegetarians or a plant based diet.
You're not throwing out insults? You don't have to rationalize your lifestyle? *looks back* Ummmm...but you are....0 -
TheopolisAmbroiseIII wrote: »PikaKnight wrote: »Thin_Beauty94 wrote: »Your point? I'm a proud vegetarian and don't care what others think of it. It's my choice and if anyone has a playing they can screw themselves. I don't care.
Maybe he's just sharing an interesting article? Why so hostile? He's not telling anyone to stop being a vegetarian. Sheesh.
You'd be hostile, too, if you were vitamin B, and iron deficient. Imagine seeing everyone eating delicious food and you're there with your couscous and tabouli smoothie. Hostility.
but...it doesn't look delicious! Steak tartares and oysters, snails and roaches, pungent game meat and fatty beef steaks and veals, bloody sausages',unidentified meats nuggets and hot-dogs...
If your sausage is bloody, something went very wrong.0 -
I assumed she meant blood sausage, but yeah. ;-)0
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Grains are the true enemy...cheap calories to feed the world's hungry.0
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lemurcat12 wrote: »I assumed she meant blood sausage, but yeah. ;-)
Aren't all sausages made with blood?
Disclaimer: I do eat the odd fish or chicken once in a while0 -
Can anyone recommend a way of eating that won't make me hulk out on the forums?0
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This is cause for celebration!0
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tincanonastring wrote: »Can anyone recommend a way of eating that won't make me hulk out on the forums?
The peep cleanse.0 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »Can anyone recommend a way of eating that won't make me hulk out on the forums?
The peep cleanse.
I don't know what you're talking about. *blinks*0 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »Can anyone recommend a way of eating that won't make me hulk out on the forums?
The peep cleanse.
We do not speak it's name. It's the Voldemort of diets.0 -
juggernaut1974 wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »Can anyone recommend a way of eating that won't make me hulk out on the forums?
The peep cleanse.
We do not speak it's name. It's the Voldemort of diets.
OOPS! I had to do a search to find out why. I didn't know. Everybody move along. Nothing to see here.0 -
Yeah, don't you dare be having any fun here, now. <eye rolly>0
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lemurcat12 wrote: »I assumed she meant blood sausage, but yeah. ;-)
Aren't all sausages made with blood?
Disclaimer: I do eat the odd fish or chicken once in a while
Made with blood does not = bloody. Also, no.
Not that there's anything wrong with a lovely rare steak.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I assumed she meant blood sausage, but yeah. ;-)
Aren't all sausages made with blood?
Disclaimer: I do eat the odd fish or chicken once in a while
Made with blood does not = bloody. Also, no.
Not that there's anything wrong with a lovely rare steak.
Which, as I've learned also isn't blood but some other liquid that happens to be red that I can't remember.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I assumed she meant blood sausage, but yeah. ;-)
Aren't all sausages made with blood?
Disclaimer: I do eat the odd fish or chicken once in a while
Made with blood does not = bloody. Also, no.
Not that there's anything wrong with a lovely rare steak.
Which, as I've learned also isn't blood but some other liquid that happens to be red that I can't remember.
True, but someone talking about a bloody steak would make more sense, and somehow thinking of it that way doesn't make it less appetizing to me. Now I want steak.
(Myoglobin.)0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I assumed she meant blood sausage, but yeah. ;-)
Aren't all sausages made with blood?
Disclaimer: I do eat the odd fish or chicken once in a while
Made with blood does not = bloody. Also, no.
Not that there's anything wrong with a lovely rare steak.
Which, as I've learned also isn't blood but some other liquid that happens to be red that I can't remember.
True, but someone talking about a bloody steak would make more sense, and somehow thinking of it that way doesn't make it less appetizing to me. Now I want steak.
(Myoglobin.)
My husband bbq's an awesome rare tenderloin steak... what time will you be here?0 -
It's not the point of being a vegetarian. Lots of vegetarians defend animals and one of the stances is that modern beef agriculture creates lots of green house gases. The claim is that switching to a being a vegetarian would reduce the emissions, when here the study doesn't support that.Thin_Beauty94 wrote: »Your point? I'm a proud vegetarian and don't care what others think of it. It's my choice and if anyone has a playing they can screw themselves. I don't care.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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blankiefinder wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I assumed she meant blood sausage, but yeah. ;-)
Aren't all sausages made with blood?
Disclaimer: I do eat the odd fish or chicken once in a while
Made with blood does not = bloody. Also, no.
Not that there's anything wrong with a lovely rare steak.
Which, as I've learned also isn't blood but some other liquid that happens to be red that I can't remember.
True, but someone talking about a bloody steak would make more sense, and somehow thinking of it that way doesn't make it less appetizing to me. Now I want steak.
(Myoglobin.)
My husband bbq's an awesome rare tenderloin steak... what time will you be here?
;-)
I'm jealous!0 -
It wasn't a "belittling" of vegetarians. You just perceived it that way. The OP just posted a study on the possible fallacy that switching to a vegetarian diet would reduce emissions. That should be the discussion, not WHY you take the stance on being a vegetarian. No one really cares whether people are carnivores, vegetarians, ominvores, etc.ericGold15 wrote: »
Speak for yourself, if you cannot contain the urge. But don't do it for me, since I could not care less.MarziPanda95 wrote: »You're the kind of vegetarian... ...
I did not start this troll thread;
I am not the one throwing out snide insults;
Or FUD.
And I don't have to rationalize my lifestyle or treatment of life.
I am quite able and willing, however, to stomp on any turkeys who feel the need to belittle vegetarians or a plant based diet.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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MarziPanda95 wrote: »ericGold15 wrote: »
As for the new report? Doesn't surprise me one bit. Animals can be grazed on land that is not suitable as crop land. They can be fed with feed from poor-quality land that will never be up to human standard. Crops take up more space than animals (so cut down more natural forest etc... big problem right now is rainforest housing orangutans being cut down for land to grow palm oil (used as vegetarian and vegan substitute in many foods) and soy) require more water, and kill more wildlife because of the machines used which grind up the rabbits, mice etc that live in the fields, which are then food for owls and the like and the whole food chain gets affected. Add to that calorie needs. Out of one pig you can probably get more calories than a whole field of lettuce. Vegetarian or omnivore our calorie needs are the same. A vegetarian needs to eat a lot more to get the right calories.TheopolisAmbroiseIII wrote: »I was being tongue in cheek and facetious. ... ... don't do the proper research to find out how to eat a diet our bodies aren't ideally adapted for and how to make up for what a diet will lack when you eliminate meat and end up sick and anemic.
I think we all, vegetarian, vegan or omnivore, need to consider more carefully how our food impacts the planet. I'm lucky that I live in a farming area and can buy local, most of the time.
While I agree with almost all of what you said, I don't know where you're getting that crops take up more space then animals? I guess it depends on the factory being run, that definitely wouldn't be the case for free range cows. Then you have the factory farms that are housing lots of animals in smaller places. Maybe that takes up less space than some crops, but then you have to grow the grains to feed those animals, and it takes a lot more grain to feed a cow than it takes to feed a human, so I would count those crops being grown to feed factory farmed animals as part of the meat industry, since that's all they're being grown for. Plenty of rainforests are being chopped down for meat farming, whether it be for housing the animals themselves or growing feed for the animals and not people. Then the ground most of these animals are farmed becomes poor-quality, and difficult to sustain crops on, when originally it would have been just fine.
Also, don't forget about GMO crops which, the whole point of them, is to take up less space and become hardier than regular crops.
Next let's not pretend like it's just vegetable crops that kill wild life. You have to tear down forests to make meat factories as well, and all of the extra waste coming from the animals does plenty to disrupt the surrounding ecosystem.
One final point, vegetarians aren't just eating leafy greens, there are plenty of calorie dense food to eat for us as well, so no, I generally don't have to eat a lot more to get the right calories. I'm perfectly capable of filling up on some peanut butter, some ice cream, or beans, you name it.0 -
_nicolemarie_ wrote: »While I agree with almost all of what you said, I don't know where you're getting that crops take up more space then animals?
All of this depends on the type of farming being done, but I suspect the point is that animals can be raised on land that is not suited for farming and can be grazed there also. (And if they are grazed and not grain-fed, no need to grow grains for them to eat.)
(I disagree with other bits of it, like that keto is one of the most-admired diets, but there are enough keto threads.)
I don't actually think the article should have provoked a vegetarian vs. meat-eater debate, as if you look at it (I quoted some of it above), it is talking about the environmental cost of producing the types of foods that we are all recommended to eat more of -- meat-eaters as well as vegetarians.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »_nicolemarie_ wrote: »While I agree with almost all of what you said, I don't know where you're getting that crops take up more space then animals?
All of this depends on the type of farming being done, but I suspect the point is that animals can be raised on land that is not suited for farming and can be grazed there also. (And if they are grazed and not grain-fed, no need to grow grains for them to eat.)
(I disagree with other bits of it, like that keto is one of the most-admired diets, but there are enough keto threads.)
I don't actually think the article should have provoked a vegetarian vs. meat-eater debate, as if you look at it (I quoted some of it above), it is talking about the environmental cost of producing the types of foods that we are all recommended to eat more of -- meat-eaters as well as vegetarians.
I suppose, but I'm not quite sure how an animal can graze on land unsuitable for crops? They'd need something to graze on. Not too mention, they graze far more than what is going to be grown in a sustainable way, they'll need to expand the grazing area because they'll eventually run down the land they are currently grazing on, making it completely unsuitable for growth after they're finished on it. Mind you, I am talking about large factory farming operations because that is what is being used for the majority of meat production. I have no issues with sustainable, responsible farming, but the amount of space that would need is just not a possibility for the current amount of meat being consumed.
I think it was more the comments on the first page (and the little bit of an over-reaction from someone) which sparked the meat vs vegetarian debate. Some people are a little more sensitive. I'm more interested in the sustainability of it.0 -
Now the really funny part?
The diet parts of vegetarianism that increase emissions (eating more broccoli, vegetables, etc) is what healthy vegetarians do.
The diet parts that decrease emissions (eating mostly grains) is what trenditarian vegetarians tend to do.
The balance of most vegetarian diets will probably favor lowered emissions overall. The people trying to eat like they're a fruit bat on 80/10/10 plans probably aren't doing the world any favors.
It is also worth considering that for anyone already at a proper, healthy weight, the advice of getting more exercise will also increase greenhouse emissions as they'll have to eat back calories for that exercise. Unless maybe the exercise is bike or jog to work, than maybe they're coming out ahead.
Heads your health wins, tails the planet's health wins.
Never care for these scenarios that make you feel there's no winning.0 -
Now the really funny part?
The diet parts of vegetarianism that increase emissions (eating more broccoli, vegetables, etc) is what healthy vegetarians do.
The diet parts that decrease emissions (eating mostly grains) is what trenditarian vegetarians tend to do.
The balance of most vegetarian diets will probably favor lowered emissions overall. The people trying to eat like they're a fruit bat on 80/10/10 plans probably aren't doing the world any favors.
It is also worth considering that for anyone already at a proper, healthy weight, the advice of getting more exercise will also increase greenhouse emissions as they'll have to eat back calories for that exercise. Unless maybe the exercise is bike or jog to work, than maybe they're coming out ahead.
Heads your health wins, tails the planet's health wins.
Never care for these scenarios that make you feel there's no winning.
I had to laugh at the bolded :laugh: I hadn't thought of it like that :laugh:0 -
_nicolemarie_ wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »_nicolemarie_ wrote: »While I agree with almost all of what you said, I don't know where you're getting that crops take up more space then animals?
All of this depends on the type of farming being done, but I suspect the point is that animals can be raised on land that is not suited for farming and can be grazed there also. (And if they are grazed and not grain-fed, no need to grow grains for them to eat.)
(I disagree with other bits of it, like that keto is one of the most-admired diets, but there are enough keto threads.)
I don't actually think the article should have provoked a vegetarian vs. meat-eater debate, as if you look at it (I quoted some of it above), it is talking about the environmental cost of producing the types of foods that we are all recommended to eat more of -- meat-eaters as well as vegetarians.
I suppose, but I'm not quite sure how an animal can graze on land unsuitable for crops? They'd need something to graze on.
Grass. This is common in the western US (including western mid-west, like parts of Nebraska, where some of my family is from), for example, where much of the area is more suited to ranching than farming (water being one reason why).Mind you, I am talking about large factory farming operations because that is what is being used for the majority of meat production.
Why focus just on this?I think it was more the comments on the first page (and the little bit of an over-reaction from someone) which sparked the meat vs vegetarian debate. Some people are a little more sensitive. I'm more interested in the sustainability of it.
It's about growing vegetables, not vegetarianism itself.
Edit: I don't want this to sound argumentative -- I agree with you, I'm interested in the topic itself, not the superiority of vegetarians vs. meat-eaters (which I think is stupid, I think both are perfectly good choices and can be healthy or not).0 -
A couple of quotes:It wasn't a "belittling" of vegetarians. You just perceived it that way.
"You'd be hostile, too, if you were vitamin B, and iron deficient. Imagine seeing everyone eating delicious food and you're there with your couscous and tabouli smoothie. Hostility."
"You'd be hostile, too, if you could only eat rabbit food."
[Edited by MFP Staff]
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ericGold15 wrote: »
A couple of quotes:It wasn't a "belittling" of vegetarians. You just perceived it that way.
"You'd be hostile, too, if you were vitamin B, and iron deficient. Imagine seeing everyone eating delicious food and you're there with your couscous and tabouli smoothie. Hostility."
"You'd be hostile, too, if you could only eat rabbit food."
My perceptions are just fine, thank you. Now how about some even-handed moderating from you ?
It's called humor. There is a big difference between a joke and an actual belittling comment.
Now calling someone a twit -> THAT is a belittling comment.0
This discussion has been closed.
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