Eating clean?
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My family's homemade pizza vs typical commercial pizza is a great example of what I'd consider being largely clean vs unclean.
We grind our own flour for a large portion of the flour that goes into making the dough. So, right from the start we're using freshly ground flour. Most of the flour we use is 100% whole grain. The flour ferments in a sourdough starter for over 12 hours, which breaks a lot of the anti-nutrients in grains like gluten and phytic acid. The dough is made in a bread machine. We then put tomato sauce on when it's time to put the toppings on. The mozzarella cheese we use comes from a farm in another state, and it has only the basic ingredients. I also put turkey pepperoni slices on my pizza.
Now, compare that to any commercial pizza. There is a huge difference in the pizza dough. I can't guarantee it, but I can't imagine there are too many pizza places that are using freshly ground whole wheat flour, not to mention the absence of other dough conditioners and preservatives (which are not necessary to make pizza). The significance of the fermented whole wheat flour means that the micronutrient content of my pizza is dramatically higher than any pizza made from primarily white flour. Instead of just fitting pizza into my macro needs, my own pizza (due to the dough) does a wonderful job of helping me meet several micros, which commercial pizza in general cannot come close to rivaling.0 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »
In my family we make a lot of things from scratch, including pizza. In terms of validating how "clean" one pizza is from another, I would look at the main components: dough, sauce, cheese, and any other toppings. If you made your own pizza dough and then put on the sauce and toppings, then based on what it sounds like you did I wouldn't necessarily call that "unclean".lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
Well, personally I'd say there's a massive difference between someone making their own bread from their own mill 100+ years ago versus someone getting a random loaf of white bread off the shelf at a commercial grocery store today. There's no question that in general (I realize there are some exceptions), the ingredient list is probably not going to be even close. And to further illustrate my point, I'll refer to this earlier post in the thread.lemurcat12 wrote: »Didn't you ever see Deadwood? Canned peaches were a treat item.
It's not uncommon for people's grandparents and great-grandparents to have bought such things from the general store (my grandfather on one side even ran the town's general store in an area where fresh food was not available much of the year). Also, given that we saw above that some claim any grains are "unclean," obviously grains were common in prior generations. My own great great great (I dunno, I'd have to look it up) grandparents even had the first mill in their Iowa county. Guess they were among the harbingers of uncleanliness in the US midwest.
You do know, right, that the definition of "unclean" foods is not limited to things with lots of added ingredients of the sort you are referring to, right? I'd say if you think there's something wrong with some ingredient, don't consume it, but just assuming that it has a chemical name so must be somehow bad for you isn't sensible, IMO. I made homemade pizza a few days ago (I'm sure not clean -- it involved white flour and a bit of sugar). I could buy pretty similar pizza depending on where I purchased it (local Italian place, for example), so trying to say one is "clean" and one not is silly.
As for Hawaiian Punch, apart from "clean" or not it's way too sweet for me and seems like a drink that would appeal perhaps to kids, not adults. But the main difference between it and the homemade punch is not the preservatives, but the added sugar, which adds tons of calories, and the absence of micronutrients. Someone who craves HP likely would dump lots of added sugar in homemade punch and if so it's just as caloric and thus IMO not much of an advantage.
But go back to my mac and cheese example for a similar point that you ignored before.
That's nice, but lots would, that's the point. (I know lots of people who do paleo, and for them eating clean means, among other things, avoiding grains. Others claim "clean" means not processed, and white flour -- any flour, in fact -- is processed. As is cheese, etc.)With mac-and-cheese, I'm assuming you mean this post:
So, if I understand what you're saying, since mac-and-cheese is a calorie dense food, that doesn't fit in well with your macro and micro needs. But to me, it doesn't change the fact that homemade mac-and-cheese would mainly stick to the basics and not have a lot of other "stuff". Also, as a side note, homemade mac and-cheese is something that we don't do much in my family for other reasons. But even when we did to it regularly, it was never as fattening as what a typical homemade recipe would call for. I'm pretty sure we always put less cheese, even though we all thought it was plenty cheesy enough.In that I don't like Kraft mac and cheese and love homemade mac and cheese, I will agree they are different. Sadly, the stuff I like has many more calories, so homemade or not, clean or not (who knows what clean means), it still doesn't usually fit in my day. (On Thanksgiving, sure!)
IME, homemade mac and cheese usually has more calories than the Kraft stuff. I don't think the Kraft stuff actually is that high cal, I just don't care for it. That yours may not be high cal doesn't really change that fact or that homemade mac & cheese pretty much fits the usual definition of "junk food" (high cal, relatively low nutrient), as well as involving "processed" ingredients, of course. People often say the problem with Kraft mac and cheese is that it's not particularly nutritious and is high cal (both true), but that goes for the homemade version too.0 -
Eating clean is one of those terms that get skewed a lot. Google the phrase and you get similar but slightly different variations of what it means..but every definition is defined by the author of a book, program, diet or website so until Websters gets on board, we can all debate it )
Generally agreed that clean eating means eating most of your calories from whole sources, few additives. Avoiding highly processed foods..beyond that, you are on your own.0 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »My family's homemade pizza vs typical commercial pizza is a great example of what I'd consider being largely clean vs unclean.
We grind our own flour for a large portion of the flour that goes into making the dough. So, right from the start we're using freshly ground flour. Most of the flour we use is 100% whole grain. The flour ferments in a sourdough starter for over 12 hours, which breaks a lot of the anti-nutrients in grains like gluten and phytic acid. The dough is made in a bread machine. We then put tomato sauce on when it's time to put the toppings on. The mozzarella cheese we use comes from a farm in another state, and it has only the basic ingredients. I also put turkey pepperoni slices on my pizza.
Now, compare that to any commercial pizza. There is a huge difference in the pizza dough. I can't guarantee it, but I can't imagine there are too many pizza places that are using freshly ground whole wheat flour, not to mention the absence of other dough conditioners and preservatives (which are not necessary to make pizza). The significance of the fermented whole wheat flour means that the micronutrient content of my pizza is dramatically higher than any pizza made from primarily white flour. Instead of just fitting pizza into my macro needs, my own pizza (due to the dough) does a wonderful job of helping me meet several micros, which commercial pizza in general cannot come close to rivaling.
So from what I'm getting from your parameters of clean - going to a lot of trouble to make your own pizza dough from scratch = clean. Additional micronutrients in your pizza dough = clean. What about the pizza sauce. Did you make that from scratch? Canned tomatoes? Clean I'm assuming.
So if I go to a local pizza shop that makes their own crust, and they make the sauce themselves, and use fresh buffalo mozzarella and basil they grow in their own garden out back - that's not clean because they didn't mill the flour themselves? But turkey pepperoni, one of the most processed and unnatural ingredients I can imagine, is clean.
Got it.0 -
Well, we don't normally make our own pizza/tomato sauce. But the ingredient list on the one we use states: "tomatoes, corn oil, salt, spices, garlic powder". I don't see any unnecessary ingredients there. Also, the pepperoni I use is reduced fat, so there isn't much saturated fat there. (And it's not like I don't get any other saturated fat in my diet, so it would be unnecessary to use a higher fat version of pepperoni). I also think it's worth noting that the caloric and volume content of the pepperoni I use doesn't take up that much of the total content of the pizza, either. In the example you gave of a local pizza shop, I wouldn't really call that unclean. But most commercial pizza (Dominoes, Papa Johns, Pizza Hut, etc.) isn't made that way. Also, unless they're using whole wheat flour, that pizza can't fulfil one's micro needs as well as my pizza would.WinoGelato wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »My family's homemade pizza vs typical commercial pizza is a great example of what I'd consider being largely clean vs unclean.
We grind our own flour for a large portion of the flour that goes into making the dough. So, right from the start we're using freshly ground flour. Most of the flour we use is 100% whole grain. The flour ferments in a sourdough starter for over 12 hours, which breaks a lot of the anti-nutrients in grains like gluten and phytic acid. The dough is made in a bread machine. We then put tomato sauce on when it's time to put the toppings on. The mozzarella cheese we use comes from a farm in another state, and it has only the basic ingredients. I also put turkey pepperoni slices on my pizza.
Now, compare that to any commercial pizza. There is a huge difference in the pizza dough. I can't guarantee it, but I can't imagine there are too many pizza places that are using freshly ground whole wheat flour, not to mention the absence of other dough conditioners and preservatives (which are not necessary to make pizza). The significance of the fermented whole wheat flour means that the micronutrient content of my pizza is dramatically higher than any pizza made from primarily white flour. Instead of just fitting pizza into my macro needs, my own pizza (due to the dough) does a wonderful job of helping me meet several micros, which commercial pizza in general cannot come close to rivaling.
So from what I'm getting from your parameters of clean - going to a lot of trouble to make your own pizza dough from scratch = clean. Additional micronutrients in your pizza dough = clean. What about the pizza sauce. Did you make that from scratch? Canned tomatoes? Clean I'm assuming.
So if I go to a local pizza shop that makes their own crust, and they make the sauce themselves, and use fresh buffalo mozzarella and basil they grow in their own garden out back - that's not clean because they didn't mill the flour themselves? But turkey pepperoni, one of the most processed and unnatural ingredients I can imagine, is clean.
Got it.
I should also add in reality, I don't really use the terms "clean" and "unclean" to describe food, but rather "healthy" and "unhealthy" (which I know most people here don't like either.) Not that I would consider pizza made the way you described as being all that "unhealthy", but I would still consider my pizza "healthier" because of its higher micro content.0 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »
Well, we don't normally make our own pizza/tomato sauce. But the ingredient list on the one we use states: "tomatoes, corn oil, salt, spices, garlic powder". I don't see any unnecessary ingredients there. Also, the pepperoni I use is reduced fat, so there isn't much saturated fat there. (And it's not like I don't get any other saturated fat in my diet, so it would be unnecessary to use a higher fat version of pepperoni). I also think it's worth noting that the caloric and volume content of the pepperoni I use doesn't take up that much of the total content of the pizza, either. In the example you gave of a local pizza shop, I wouldn't really call that unclean. But most commercial pizza (Dominoes, Papa Johns, Pizza Hut, etc.) isn't made that way. Also, unless they're using whole wheat flour, that pizza can't fulfil one's micro needs as well as my pizza would.WinoGelato wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »My family's homemade pizza vs typical commercial pizza is a great example of what I'd consider being largely clean vs unclean.
We grind our own flour for a large portion of the flour that goes into making the dough. So, right from the start we're using freshly ground flour. Most of the flour we use is 100% whole grain. The flour ferments in a sourdough starter for over 12 hours, which breaks a lot of the anti-nutrients in grains like gluten and phytic acid. The dough is made in a bread machine. We then put tomato sauce on when it's time to put the toppings on. The mozzarella cheese we use comes from a farm in another state, and it has only the basic ingredients. I also put turkey pepperoni slices on my pizza.
Now, compare that to any commercial pizza. There is a huge difference in the pizza dough. I can't guarantee it, but I can't imagine there are too many pizza places that are using freshly ground whole wheat flour, not to mention the absence of other dough conditioners and preservatives (which are not necessary to make pizza). The significance of the fermented whole wheat flour means that the micronutrient content of my pizza is dramatically higher than any pizza made from primarily white flour. Instead of just fitting pizza into my macro needs, my own pizza (due to the dough) does a wonderful job of helping me meet several micros, which commercial pizza in general cannot come close to rivaling.
So from what I'm getting from your parameters of clean - going to a lot of trouble to make your own pizza dough from scratch = clean. Additional micronutrients in your pizza dough = clean. What about the pizza sauce. Did you make that from scratch? Canned tomatoes? Clean I'm assuming.
So if I go to a local pizza shop that makes their own crust, and they make the sauce themselves, and use fresh buffalo mozzarella and basil they grow in their own garden out back - that's not clean because they didn't mill the flour themselves? But turkey pepperoni, one of the most processed and unnatural ingredients I can imagine, is clean.
Got it.
I should also add in reality, I don't really use the terms "clean" and "unclean" to describe food, but rather "healthy" and "unhealthy" (which I know most people here don't like either.) Not that I would consider pizza made the way you described as being all that "unhealthy", but I would still consider my pizza "healthier" because of its higher micro content.
Does clean or unclean have something to do with sat fat content in your definition?
Peperoni salami is a highly processed food, full stop. If it's low fat it's even more processed. As a highly processed food, most people eating "clean" would never have salami. Q.E.D.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
Well, we don't normally make our own pizza/tomato sauce. But the ingredient list on the one we use states: "tomatoes, corn oil, salt, spices, garlic powder". I don't see any unnecessary ingredients there. Also, the pepperoni I use is reduced fat, so there isn't much saturated fat there. (And it's not like I don't get any other saturated fat in my diet, so it would be unnecessary to use a higher fat version of pepperoni). I also think it's worth noting that the caloric and volume content of the pepperoni I use doesn't take up that much of the total content of the pizza, either. In the example you gave of a local pizza shop, I wouldn't really call that unclean. But most commercial pizza (Dominoes, Papa Johns, Pizza Hut, etc.) isn't made that way. Also, unless they're using whole wheat flour, that pizza can't fulfil one's micro needs as well as my pizza would.WinoGelato wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »My family's homemade pizza vs typical commercial pizza is a great example of what I'd consider being largely clean vs unclean.
We grind our own flour for a large portion of the flour that goes into making the dough. So, right from the start we're using freshly ground flour. Most of the flour we use is 100% whole grain. The flour ferments in a sourdough starter for over 12 hours, which breaks a lot of the anti-nutrients in grains like gluten and phytic acid. The dough is made in a bread machine. We then put tomato sauce on when it's time to put the toppings on. The mozzarella cheese we use comes from a farm in another state, and it has only the basic ingredients. I also put turkey pepperoni slices on my pizza.
Now, compare that to any commercial pizza. There is a huge difference in the pizza dough. I can't guarantee it, but I can't imagine there are too many pizza places that are using freshly ground whole wheat flour, not to mention the absence of other dough conditioners and preservatives (which are not necessary to make pizza). The significance of the fermented whole wheat flour means that the micronutrient content of my pizza is dramatically higher than any pizza made from primarily white flour. Instead of just fitting pizza into my macro needs, my own pizza (due to the dough) does a wonderful job of helping me meet several micros, which commercial pizza in general cannot come close to rivaling.
So from what I'm getting from your parameters of clean - going to a lot of trouble to make your own pizza dough from scratch = clean. Additional micronutrients in your pizza dough = clean. What about the pizza sauce. Did you make that from scratch? Canned tomatoes? Clean I'm assuming.
So if I go to a local pizza shop that makes their own crust, and they make the sauce themselves, and use fresh buffalo mozzarella and basil they grow in their own garden out back - that's not clean because they didn't mill the flour themselves? But turkey pepperoni, one of the most processed and unnatural ingredients I can imagine, is clean.
Got it.
I should also add in reality, I don't really use the terms "clean" and "unclean" to describe food, but rather "healthy" and "unhealthy" (which I know most people here don't like either.) Not that I would consider pizza made the way you described as being all that "unhealthy", but I would still consider my pizza "healthier" because of its higher micro content.
Does clean or unclean have something to do with sat fat content in your definition?
Peperoni salami is a highly processed food, full stop. If it's low fat it's even more processed. As a highly processed food, most people eating "clean" would never have salami. Q.E.D.
Turkey Pepperoni. You know, straight off the turkey. From the pepperoni section.
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Ok, well I wasn't trying to say that my pizza is one of the "healthiest foods" out there. Rather, if you're going to eat pepperoni pizza, putting all of the components together mine is about as "healthy" as it gets.stevencloser wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
Well, we don't normally make our own pizza/tomato sauce. But the ingredient list on the one we use states: "tomatoes, corn oil, salt, spices, garlic powder". I don't see any unnecessary ingredients there. Also, the pepperoni I use is reduced fat, so there isn't much saturated fat there. (And it's not like I don't get any other saturated fat in my diet, so it would be unnecessary to use a higher fat version of pepperoni). I also think it's worth noting that the caloric and volume content of the pepperoni I use doesn't take up that much of the total content of the pizza, either. In the example you gave of a local pizza shop, I wouldn't really call that unclean. But most commercial pizza (Dominoes, Papa Johns, Pizza Hut, etc.) isn't made that way. Also, unless they're using whole wheat flour, that pizza can't fulfil one's micro needs as well as my pizza would.WinoGelato wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »My family's homemade pizza vs typical commercial pizza is a great example of what I'd consider being largely clean vs unclean.
We grind our own flour for a large portion of the flour that goes into making the dough. So, right from the start we're using freshly ground flour. Most of the flour we use is 100% whole grain. The flour ferments in a sourdough starter for over 12 hours, which breaks a lot of the anti-nutrients in grains like gluten and phytic acid. The dough is made in a bread machine. We then put tomato sauce on when it's time to put the toppings on. The mozzarella cheese we use comes from a farm in another state, and it has only the basic ingredients. I also put turkey pepperoni slices on my pizza.
Now, compare that to any commercial pizza. There is a huge difference in the pizza dough. I can't guarantee it, but I can't imagine there are too many pizza places that are using freshly ground whole wheat flour, not to mention the absence of other dough conditioners and preservatives (which are not necessary to make pizza). The significance of the fermented whole wheat flour means that the micronutrient content of my pizza is dramatically higher than any pizza made from primarily white flour. Instead of just fitting pizza into my macro needs, my own pizza (due to the dough) does a wonderful job of helping me meet several micros, which commercial pizza in general cannot come close to rivaling.
So from what I'm getting from your parameters of clean - going to a lot of trouble to make your own pizza dough from scratch = clean. Additional micronutrients in your pizza dough = clean. What about the pizza sauce. Did you make that from scratch? Canned tomatoes? Clean I'm assuming.
So if I go to a local pizza shop that makes their own crust, and they make the sauce themselves, and use fresh buffalo mozzarella and basil they grow in their own garden out back - that's not clean because they didn't mill the flour themselves? But turkey pepperoni, one of the most processed and unnatural ingredients I can imagine, is clean.
Got it.
I should also add in reality, I don't really use the terms "clean" and "unclean" to describe food, but rather "healthy" and "unhealthy" (which I know most people here don't like either.) Not that I would consider pizza made the way you described as being all that "unhealthy", but I would still consider my pizza "healthier" because of its higher micro content.
Does clean or unclean have something to do with sat fat content in your definition?
Peperoni salami is a highly processed food, full stop. If it's low fat it's even more processed. As a highly processed food, most people eating "clean" would never have salami. Q.E.D.
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ForecasterJason wrote: »
Ok, well I wasn't trying to say that my pizza is one of the "healthiest foods" out there. Rather, if you're going to eat pepperoni pizza, putting all of the components together mine is about as "healthy" as it gets.stevencloser wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
Well, we don't normally make our own pizza/tomato sauce. But the ingredient list on the one we use states: "tomatoes, corn oil, salt, spices, garlic powder". I don't see any unnecessary ingredients there. Also, the pepperoni I use is reduced fat, so there isn't much saturated fat there. (And it's not like I don't get any other saturated fat in my diet, so it would be unnecessary to use a higher fat version of pepperoni). I also think it's worth noting that the caloric and volume content of the pepperoni I use doesn't take up that much of the total content of the pizza, either. In the example you gave of a local pizza shop, I wouldn't really call that unclean. But most commercial pizza (Dominoes, Papa Johns, Pizza Hut, etc.) isn't made that way. Also, unless they're using whole wheat flour, that pizza can't fulfil one's micro needs as well as my pizza would.WinoGelato wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »My family's homemade pizza vs typical commercial pizza is a great example of what I'd consider being largely clean vs unclean.
We grind our own flour for a large portion of the flour that goes into making the dough. So, right from the start we're using freshly ground flour. Most of the flour we use is 100% whole grain. The flour ferments in a sourdough starter for over 12 hours, which breaks a lot of the anti-nutrients in grains like gluten and phytic acid. The dough is made in a bread machine. We then put tomato sauce on when it's time to put the toppings on. The mozzarella cheese we use comes from a farm in another state, and it has only the basic ingredients. I also put turkey pepperoni slices on my pizza.
Now, compare that to any commercial pizza. There is a huge difference in the pizza dough. I can't guarantee it, but I can't imagine there are too many pizza places that are using freshly ground whole wheat flour, not to mention the absence of other dough conditioners and preservatives (which are not necessary to make pizza). The significance of the fermented whole wheat flour means that the micronutrient content of my pizza is dramatically higher than any pizza made from primarily white flour. Instead of just fitting pizza into my macro needs, my own pizza (due to the dough) does a wonderful job of helping me meet several micros, which commercial pizza in general cannot come close to rivaling.
So from what I'm getting from your parameters of clean - going to a lot of trouble to make your own pizza dough from scratch = clean. Additional micronutrients in your pizza dough = clean. What about the pizza sauce. Did you make that from scratch? Canned tomatoes? Clean I'm assuming.
So if I go to a local pizza shop that makes their own crust, and they make the sauce themselves, and use fresh buffalo mozzarella and basil they grow in their own garden out back - that's not clean because they didn't mill the flour themselves? But turkey pepperoni, one of the most processed and unnatural ingredients I can imagine, is clean.
Got it.
I should also add in reality, I don't really use the terms "clean" and "unclean" to describe food, but rather "healthy" and "unhealthy" (which I know most people here don't like either.) Not that I would consider pizza made the way you described as being all that "unhealthy", but I would still consider my pizza "healthier" because of its higher micro content.
Does clean or unclean have something to do with sat fat content in your definition?
Peperoni salami is a highly processed food, full stop. If it's low fat it's even more processed. As a highly processed food, most people eating "clean" would never have salami. Q.E.D.
Actually, your pizza example was meant to illustrate how much more "clean" your pizza is than those which are commercially available. Through your description, it is clear that your interpretation of "clean" means that it has more micronutrients, which again takes us back to that question of if people who use the term "clean" mean it interchangeably with "healthy". It seems that you do.0 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »
Your great-grandparents ate all of kinds of foods out of a box??? I find that very hard to believe, unless you're referring to them eating those foods very late in life. As an example, Kraft mac-and-cheese didn't come out until 1937, and a lot of those other foods didn't really become popular in commercialized form until well into the 20th century. Anyone over the age of 40 would have great-grandparents who would have been born roughly a century ago (at least). So, they would have grown up prior to World War II, when many of those foods were certainly not nearly as widespread in households as they are now.Our general rule of thumb for "eating clean" is would our great grandfathers recognize/pronounce these ingredients.
So:
Homemade mac & cheese - clean; Kraft blue box - not clean
Homemade bread - clean; in a plastic sleeve - not clean
etc etc.
We of course don't always achieve it, but we at least try.
I always get a kick out of the "grandparents" definition. My grandparents and great-grandparents ate all kinds of things out of boxes and bags: snack cakes, candy, white bread, kielbasi, pudding, macaroni and cheese, etc.
Does that means these foods are "clean?"
In the clean eating definition that says "If your great-grandparents ate it" or "recognized it as food" or whatever, nowhere does it say "in their youth", or "before you were born." If the definition even said "clean foods are foods that were widely available in 1900", I could buy that. It's at least a firm definition. But the generational definition is slippery and glib.
For the record, I'm 49. I knew a few of my great-grandparents when I was a child. They definitely ate things like box cakes, white sugar, and margarine. By definition they could only eat these things when they were available, i.e. later in their lives.0 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »Now, compare that to any commercial pizza. There is a huge difference in the pizza dough. I can't guarantee it, but I can't imagine there are too many pizza places that are using freshly ground whole wheat flour, not to mention the absence of other dough conditioners and preservatives (which are not necessary to make pizza).
I'm not sure I understand why flour in general (here's a good list of the ingredients: http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop-img/labels/1443556090857.pdf) is not "clean" as compared to your home ground flour. I mean, that's kind of neat that you can do that, but it's not reasonably possible for most people and for me there are lots of things that would take a higher priority (and yet I wouldn't choose to eat turkey pepperoni, although I wouldn't call it unclean). I have nothing against you drawing lines where you want, as I do, but I do take issue with you trying to define in a more general way what is "clean" and what isn't.The significance of the fermented whole wheat flour means that the micronutrient content of my pizza is dramatically higher than any pizza made from primarily white flour.
You realize it's possible to purchase whole grain flour, right? I make pizza with it sometimes, but when making it for my family or purchasing it at a local Italian restaurant (which usually has the ability to make a higher quality product than most home kitchens/cooks), I am happy to use white and focus on adding lots of vegetables and my other meals for my micros. I get plenty in my diet as a whole.Well, we don't normally make our own pizza/tomato sauce.
Interesting. I'm happy with good store-bought flour, and have no desire to grind my own, but I do always make my own pizza sauce (although I'll used canned tomatoes out of season, like now). So again, we just all have different ideas about what is important and what is not.But the ingredient list on the one we use states: "tomatoes, corn oil, salt, spices, garlic powder". I don't see any unnecessary ingredients there.
Who decides what is "unnecessary"? It's subjective. I certainly know those who would consider corn oil a less than desirable ingredient.Also, the pepperoni I use is reduced fat, so there isn't much saturated fat there.
Many people consider reduced fat products to be not "clean." (I have no issue with skim milk or cottage cheese or yogurt, but I wouldn't eat reduced fat cheese and don't do turkey "bacon" or pretend that any processed meat is other than, well, processed. That said, I'm snobby about the processed meats I like -- I happily added some prosciutto to the pizza I made recently.)But most commercial pizza (Dominoes, Papa Johns, Pizza Hut, etc.) isn't made that way.
Those are not at all what I'm thinking of when I talk about getting pizza from a local Italian place, btw -- it's not a matter of cleanliness, but personal taste.
Whether or not you have white or whole wheat flour on your pizza really shouldn't make that much difference to whether one has an overall nutritious diet. Like I said before, when possible I tend to choose whole grain over refined, but when it makes a difference to taste I might go for white, and I don't rely on grains much for micros (they do add some nice fiber and a little protein).0 -
Ok, but would they have recognized a lot of the ingredients that are on a lot of packaged foods today, and did they grow up with it? I would think the answer is "no". Just because they ate it doesn't mean that they paid attention to the ingredient list, and more than likely it's still plenty different from what they were used to when they were a lot younger. When foods eaten by grandparents and great-grandparents in general come up in a discussion, I wouldn't necessarily think of what was eaten very late in life, since that doesn't define the majority of their years.ForecasterJason wrote: »
Your great-grandparents ate all of kinds of foods out of a box??? I find that very hard to believe, unless you're referring to them eating those foods very late in life. As an example, Kraft mac-and-cheese didn't come out until 1937, and a lot of those other foods didn't really become popular in commercialized form until well into the 20th century. Anyone over the age of 40 would have great-grandparents who would have been born roughly a century ago (at least). So, they would have grown up prior to World War II, when many of those foods were certainly not nearly as widespread in households as they are now.Our general rule of thumb for "eating clean" is would our great grandfathers recognize/pronounce these ingredients.
So:
Homemade mac & cheese - clean; Kraft blue box - not clean
Homemade bread - clean; in a plastic sleeve - not clean
etc etc.
We of course don't always achieve it, but we at least try.
I always get a kick out of the "grandparents" definition. My grandparents and great-grandparents ate all kinds of things out of boxes and bags: snack cakes, candy, white bread, kielbasi, pudding, macaroni and cheese, etc.
Does that means these foods are "clean?"
In the clean eating definition that says "If your great-grandparents ate it" or "recognized it as food" or whatever, nowhere does it say "in their youth", or "before you were born." If the definition even said "clean foods are foods that were widely available in 1900", I could buy that. It's at least a firm definition. But the generational definition is slippery and glib.
For the record, I'm 49. I knew a few of my great-grandparents when I was a child. They definitely ate things like box cakes, white sugar, and margarine. By definition they could only eat these things when they were available, i.e. later in their lives.
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As for the flour, it's not so much about the "flour" itself but the dough. Pizza was not originally made with dough conditioners and lots of preservatives.lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »Now, compare that to any commercial pizza. There is a huge difference in the pizza dough. I can't guarantee it, but I can't imagine there are too many pizza places that are using freshly ground whole wheat flour, not to mention the absence of other dough conditioners and preservatives (which are not necessary to make pizza).
I'm not sure I understand why flour in general (here's a good list of the ingredients: http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop-img/labels/1443556090857.pdf) is not "clean" as compared to your home ground flour. I mean, that's kind of neat that you can do that, but it's not reasonably possible for most people and for me there are lots of things that would take a higher priority (and yet I wouldn't choose to eat turkey pepperoni, although I wouldn't call it unclean). I have nothing against you drawing lines where you want, as I do, but I do take issue with you trying to define in a more general way what is "clean" and what isn't.The significance of the fermented whole wheat flour means that the micronutrient content of my pizza is dramatically higher than any pizza made from primarily white flour.
You realize it's possible to purchase whole grain flour, right? I make pizza with it sometimes, but when making it for my family or purchasing it at a local Italian restaurant (which usually has the ability to make a higher quality product than most home kitchens/cooks), I am happy to use white and focus on adding lots of vegetables and my other meals for my micros. I get plenty in my diet as a whole.Well, we don't normally make our own pizza/tomato sauce.
Interesting. I'm happy with good store-bought flour, and have no desire to grind my own, but I do always make my own pizza sauce (although I'll used canned tomatoes out of season, like now). So again, we just all have different ideas about what is important and what is not.But the ingredient list on the one we use states: "tomatoes, corn oil, salt, spices, garlic powder". I don't see any unnecessary ingredients there.
Who decides what is "unnecessary"? It's subjective. I certainly know those who would consider corn oil a less than desirable ingredient.Also, the pepperoni I use is reduced fat, so there isn't much saturated fat there.
Many people consider reduced fat products to be not "clean." (I have no issue with skim milk or cottage cheese or yogurt, but I wouldn't eat reduced fat cheese and don't do turkey "bacon" or pretend that any processed meat is other than, well, processed. That said, I'm snobby about the processed meats I like -- I happily added some prosciutto to the pizza I made recently.)But most commercial pizza (Dominoes, Papa Johns, Pizza Hut, etc.) isn't made that way.
Those are not at all what I'm thinking of when I talk about getting pizza from a local Italian place, btw -- it's not a matter of cleanliness, but personal taste.
Whether or not you have white or whole wheat flour on your pizza really shouldn't make that much difference to whether one has an overall nutritious diet. Like I said before, when possible I tend to choose whole grain over refined, but when it makes a difference to taste I might go for white, and I don't rely on grains much for micros (they do add some nice fiber and a little protein).
I think I said it before, I wouldn't call your homemade pizza "unhealthy". I'd say your homemade pizza is still well ahead of most commercial pizza in terms of nutrition.
And I do get your point about "unnecessary" ingredients being subjective. But even still, that ingredient list for the sauce doesn't have preservatives or other chemicals that don't seem "right" for tomato sauce.
I look at "healthy" and "unhealthy" as a continuum. I'd call pizza from certain authentic, local places healthier than many other commercial varieties (like Dominoes, Pizza Hut), but I'd still consider mine to be healthiest overall.0 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »Now, compare that to any commercial pizza. There is a huge difference in the pizza dough. I can't guarantee it, but I can't imagine there are too many pizza places that are using freshly ground whole wheat flour, not to mention the absence of other dough conditioners and preservatives (which are not necessary to make pizza).
I'm not sure I understand why flour in general (here's a good list of the ingredients: http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop-img/labels/1443556090857.pdf) is not "clean" as compared to your home ground flour. I mean, that's kind of neat that you can do that, but it's not reasonably possible for most people and for me there are lots of things that would take a higher priority (and yet I wouldn't choose to eat turkey pepperoni, although I wouldn't call it unclean). I have nothing against you drawing lines where you want, as I do, but I do take issue with you trying to define in a more general way what is "clean" and what isn't.The significance of the fermented whole wheat flour means that the micronutrient content of my pizza is dramatically higher than any pizza made from primarily white flour.
You realize it's possible to purchase whole grain flour, right? I make pizza with it sometimes, but when making it for my family or purchasing it at a local Italian restaurant (which usually has the ability to make a higher quality product than most home kitchens/cooks), I am happy to use white and focus on adding lots of vegetables and my other meals for my micros. I get plenty in my diet as a whole.Well, we don't normally make our own pizza/tomato sauce.
Interesting. I'm happy with good store-bought flour, and have no desire to grind my own, but I do always make my own pizza sauce (although I'll used canned tomatoes out of season, like now). So again, we just all have different ideas about what is important and what is not.But the ingredient list on the one we use states: "tomatoes, corn oil, salt, spices, garlic powder". I don't see any unnecessary ingredients there.
Who decides what is "unnecessary"? It's subjective. I certainly know those who would consider corn oil a less than desirable ingredient.Also, the pepperoni I use is reduced fat, so there isn't much saturated fat there.
Many people consider reduced fat products to be not "clean." (I have no issue with skim milk or cottage cheese or yogurt, but I wouldn't eat reduced fat cheese and don't do turkey "bacon" or pretend that any processed meat is other than, well, processed. That said, I'm snobby about the processed meats I like -- I happily added some prosciutto to the pizza I made recently.)But most commercial pizza (Dominoes, Papa Johns, Pizza Hut, etc.) isn't made that way.
Those are not at all what I'm thinking of when I talk about getting pizza from a local Italian place, btw -- it's not a matter of cleanliness, but personal taste.
Whether or not you have white or whole wheat flour on your pizza really shouldn't make that much difference to whether one has an overall nutritious diet. Like I said before, when possible I tend to choose whole grain over refined, but when it makes a difference to taste I might go for white, and I don't rely on grains much for micros (they do add some nice fiber and a little protein).
As for the flour, it's not so much about the "flour" itself but the dough.
I thought you were comparing your pizza dough to mine, and the difference is primarily the flour, as I don't add anything else besides yeast, olive oil, salt, and a bit of sugar (to help out the yeast). I don't expect my neighborhood Italian restaurant does either.
As for nutrition, I think a more important question is what do you put on the pizza (or what else do you eat in your day). I tend to like vegetarian pizza (although the ones I made recently were not), so usually get lots of veg on mine, and I tend to eat lots of veg anyway. If yours didn't have vegetables I might consider it less nutritious, but in the context of a good balanced day, that wouldn't matter. The nutrition challenge for me when having pizza is getting in enough protein. Thus, I usually have lunch of lean protein (like fish or chicken) plus vegetables if I'm planning to have a pizza dinner. But that has nothing to do with "clean" or not.0 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »
Ok, but would they have recognized a lot of the ingredients that are on a lot of packaged foods today, and did they grow up with it? I would think the answer is "no". Just because they ate it doesn't mean that they paid attention to the ingredient list, and more than likely it's still plenty different from what they were used to when they were a lot younger. When foods eaten by grandparents and great-grandparents in general come up in a discussion, I wouldn't necessarily think of what was eaten very late in life, since that doesn't define the majority of their years.ForecasterJason wrote: »
Your great-grandparents ate all of kinds of foods out of a box??? I find that very hard to believe, unless you're referring to them eating those foods very late in life. As an example, Kraft mac-and-cheese didn't come out until 1937, and a lot of those other foods didn't really become popular in commercialized form until well into the 20th century. Anyone over the age of 40 would have great-grandparents who would have been born roughly a century ago (at least). So, they would have grown up prior to World War II, when many of those foods were certainly not nearly as widespread in households as they are now.Our general rule of thumb for "eating clean" is would our great grandfathers recognize/pronounce these ingredients.
So:
Homemade mac & cheese - clean; Kraft blue box - not clean
Homemade bread - clean; in a plastic sleeve - not clean
etc etc.
We of course don't always achieve it, but we at least try.
I always get a kick out of the "grandparents" definition. My grandparents and great-grandparents ate all kinds of things out of boxes and bags: snack cakes, candy, white bread, kielbasi, pudding, macaroni and cheese, etc.
Does that means these foods are "clean?"
In the clean eating definition that says "If your great-grandparents ate it" or "recognized it as food" or whatever, nowhere does it say "in their youth", or "before you were born." If the definition even said "clean foods are foods that were widely available in 1900", I could buy that. It's at least a firm definition. But the generational definition is slippery and glib.
For the record, I'm 49. I knew a few of my great-grandparents when I was a child. They definitely ate things like box cakes, white sugar, and margarine. By definition they could only eat these things when they were available, i.e. later in their lives.
I find these posts amusing since it presumes that our grandparents and great grandparents were so much healthier than we are today, simply because they didn't eat food from a box. My maternal grandparents died 30 years before I was born, at the ages of 57 and 59. My paternal grandfather (who ate "gravy sandwiches" every day on packaged white bread and smoked 2 packs a day) died at 68 and my paternal grandmother at 75.
Yeah, I will go ahead and take my chances with the boxed foods and unpronounceable ingredients of today. Fortunately I have a chemistry degree so I know not only how to pronounce many of those scary ingredients, but what their purpose is in the food and why they should not be considered scary not does their presence negate any health benefits of the food they are added to or undo the other healthy things that I include in my overall balanced diet.
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The funny thing is that I personally know a couple people who also have chemistry degrees, but they take a different stance. Even though they know more about those other ingredients, they don't think it belongs in the food, and so they do the best they can to minimize consumption of those foods (or more specifically, not the food itself but the brand or variety that includes additional "stuff"). But I guess like the phrase goes, "to each their own".WinoGelato wrote: »
Fortunately I have a chemistry degree so I know not only how to pronounce many of those scary ingredients, but what their purpose is in the food and why they should not be considered scary not does their presence negate any health benefits of the food they are added to or undo the other healthy things that I include in my overall balanced diet.ForecasterJason wrote: »
Ok, but would they have recognized a lot of the ingredients that are on a lot of packaged foods today, and did they grow up with it? I would think the answer is "no". Just because they ate it doesn't mean that they paid attention to the ingredient list, and more than likely it's still plenty different from what they were used to when they were a lot younger. When foods eaten by grandparents and great-grandparents in general come up in a discussion, I wouldn't necessarily think of what was eaten very late in life, since that doesn't define the majority of their years.ForecasterJason wrote: »
Your great-grandparents ate all of kinds of foods out of a box??? I find that very hard to believe, unless you're referring to them eating those foods very late in life. As an example, Kraft mac-and-cheese didn't come out until 1937, and a lot of those other foods didn't really become popular in commercialized form until well into the 20th century. Anyone over the age of 40 would have great-grandparents who would have been born roughly a century ago (at least). So, they would have grown up prior to World War II, when many of those foods were certainly not nearly as widespread in households as they are now.Our general rule of thumb for "eating clean" is would our great grandfathers recognize/pronounce these ingredients.
So:
Homemade mac & cheese - clean; Kraft blue box - not clean
Homemade bread - clean; in a plastic sleeve - not clean
etc etc.
We of course don't always achieve it, but we at least try.
I always get a kick out of the "grandparents" definition. My grandparents and great-grandparents ate all kinds of things out of boxes and bags: snack cakes, candy, white bread, kielbasi, pudding, macaroni and cheese, etc.
Does that means these foods are "clean?"
In the clean eating definition that says "If your great-grandparents ate it" or "recognized it as food" or whatever, nowhere does it say "in their youth", or "before you were born." If the definition even said "clean foods are foods that were widely available in 1900", I could buy that. It's at least a firm definition. But the generational definition is slippery and glib.
For the record, I'm 49. I knew a few of my great-grandparents when I was a child. They definitely ate things like box cakes, white sugar, and margarine. By definition they could only eat these things when they were available, i.e. later in their lives.
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