Just consider this
Replies
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If a doctor told you that next time you ate your favorite "downfall" food (binge, "can't" moderate), smoked your next cigarette, drank your next latte, you would DEFINITELY get terminal cancer, would you eat/drink it?
I doubt it.
So what stops anyone from doing it then? Fear, right? So people who CAN'T seem to stop eating what they like to binge on would definitely stop right away.
Point is that if someone really "feared" that something was going to be their demise on a weight loss, they'd solve their issue. Problem is that people that "can't" seem to moderate don't ever feel this way.
I'm sure this will be a discussion that will spark some tough debate, so please be cordial.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I haven't read the comments yet but I do not as I know several ppl that were told just that. My both aunts were diagnosed with lung cancer, both continued to smoke. One passed away and the other co tines to smoke, has a breathing machine and cannot to sentences out without hacking away. I also had a cousin who was diagnosed with cirrhosis(sp?) of the liver. She continued to drink and dropped dead in the hallway. Basically, I completely understand the simplicity of the CICO but the addictive issues to food are usually just the symptoms of some other underlying issues (not always of course ) so changing a binge behavior requires a deeper look into those causes. Also it is safe to say that habits in general are very hard to eliminate. I once sucked hot sauce off my thumb when I was 10 because that's how strong my thumb habit was ( this is a small issue compared to the eating but you get my point...well hopefully )0 -
Ugh so many errors...sorry my phone app sucks0
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Let me try a different approach then.
If anyone who says they "can't" moderate, were told today that if they could moderate, they were "gauranteed" their weekly target loss and wouldn't regain weight (hypothetical) again, do you think the people who stated they couldn't, would?
I "can't" moderate certain foods and I've been at goal weight and peak fitness for a while now. So this whole premise of fear of not hitting my goals may as well be the bogeyman. It is irrelevant to me
I've learned many, many things from this site, and the fear or shaming approaches just never did it. A step by step solution set detailing how they overcame any shared concerns have tended to be the most useful to me.
Even if certain OP's were not ready to hear the solutions offered, imagine if they could come back to the same thread three months after the fact and realize, wow, this that and that could work, let me try it. That's unlikely to happen if they're shamed or berated, but the reasoning we usually see behind such an approach is that it is direct, and even if the OP may be hurt or offended, lurkers who are not being directly addressed (and therefore would not feel the sting as badly as the OP does) can be helped. It's hard to counter this because who knows how many lurkers are being helped? Dozens? Hundreds? Millions? Don't know.
It is not that I can't moderate certain foods it is that I choose not to. In some...maybe most cases...it is simpler just to eliminate it. Why make things harder for myself by struggling with moderation when elimination is easier for me?
I realize that this is not true for all...maybe not even most...that is why I try not to tell someone how they should make their food choices.0 -
I've consigned to the fact that fear of death isn't going to work for everyone. I believe where I went wrong here was that people really cared enough about life, that they'd be willing to do what they need to do to preserve it. My bad.
The problem with fear tactics is that for most people fear dissipates over time. For example the shootings and bombings that you used...yes for a period of time people are afraid but over time people go back to normal until something else comes along to cause fear.
Depends. I've had morbidly obese patients (3 whom I've actually helped reduce more than 200lbs) referred to me by a doctor letting them know that if they didn't change, they shouldn't expect a long life. I'd throw it in there here and there, but relied more on their successes (whether it be weight loss or new personal best on an exercise) because it was something more they strived for since success usually brings more effort.Does this fear approach work well with clients? Do you think it's ethical to use this approach even if it is effective (short term at best in the vast majority of cases)? Becuase a doctor telling a patient that their behaviour is going to kill them is one thing; they have the expertise, medical histories and the statistics that back that advice up. They can say it with relative certainty.
Lol, given that people react to fear on a daily basis (look at how shootings and bombings are now causing political rhetoric amongst Americans), I think fear can be used to an extend. But again, being more optimistic than pessimistic, I'd use the fear of something to help them achieve success by means of overcoming them.Is it wise to tell this to people that have a hard time sticking to a diet plan, nearly all of which are not in the crisis of dying if they take one more bite? Is it good to try to instill that sort of fear in a person? Is it wise to place that sort of pressure on them to the point where they fear for their lives if they fall off the wagon? Considering that the vast majority of people that lose weight will gain it back, I think that inserting a false sense of fear into that situation would be in extremely poor taste.
It is rarely the emotionally unstable that achieve healthy goals. I don't see how this approach would strengthen a person's emotional well being.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Emotions for the most part are temporary always being replaced by another emotion.
We see many examples in the weight loss world...people lose weight...people feel "good"...fear or sadness comes along and for many people the cycle begins again.
Fear could be useful initially but that fear has to be replaced with another emotion to continue. Fear in most cases can not be a long time motivator. If we could guarantee quick results then fear might work but we can't and we become complacent. Plus unless danger from weight is immediate most people believe they can always "start tomorrow". Most health issues from being over weight are accumulative long range and not necessarily immediate.
Besides using "fear" on someone is really close to sounding like a threat...most people don't respond well to being threatened...at least I don't.
It's basically now come down to the point that if someone really wants something bad enough, they WILL do what it takes to achieve it.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Consequences too far into the future are basically meaningless for many people.
And except for morbid obesity, the stats just don't definitively indicate enough actual likely harm to make a change anyhow.
I suspect looking good naked is a much stronger motivator than not dying a few years earlier decades from now for many. At least it is for me.0 -
Let me try a different approach then.
If anyone who says they "can't" moderate, were told today that if they could moderate, they were "gauranteed" their weekly target loss and wouldn't regain weight (hypothetical) again, do you think the people who stated they couldn't, would?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
This could work for some people.
I don't think moderation is the end all be all for weight loss and maintaining though. While I think moderation would be ideal, it may not work out that way for me. If it doesn't work out that I can moderate, that doesn't mean that I have failed as a human being or anything negative.
The disdain for people that want the easy way out puzzles me. I'm working very hard to lose and will continue to work very hard to maintain. If a magical unicorn showed up and said they were blessing me with a healthy weight without me having to do anything or think about it again, I'd take it in a skinny minute without shame.
When I was growing up calorie counts for food wasn't readily available but lots of fad diet information was. Nutrition (calorie count) information has gotten better while the fad diet information is even more available due to the internet. Many people feel desperate in their quest to lose weight. I understand why someone would get sucked in. Desperation makes people do many stupid things.0 -
susan100df wrote: »Let me try a different approach then.
If anyone who says they "can't" moderate, were told today that if they could moderate, they were "gauranteed" their weekly target loss and wouldn't regain weight (hypothetical) again, do you think the people who stated they couldn't, would?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
This could work for some people.
I don't think moderation is the end all be all for weight loss and maintaining though. While I think moderation would be ideal, it may not work out that way for me. If it doesn't work out that I can moderate, that doesn't mean that I have failed as a human being or anything negative.
The disdain for people that want the easy way out puzzles me. I'm working very hard to lose and will continue to work very hard to maintain. If a magical unicorn showed up and said they were blessing me with a healthy weight without me having to do anything or think about it again, I'd take it in a skinny minute without shame.
When I was growing up calorie counts for food wasn't readily available but lots of fad diet information was. Nutrition (calorie count) information has gotten better while the fad diet information is even more available due to the internet. Many people feel desperate in their quest to lose weight. I understand why someone would get sucked in. Desperation makes people do many stupid things.
Perhaps we have differing definitions of the word, but I believe moderation is actually the *only* thing that works in maintenance. How one arrives at their moderated calories may differ, but the necessity of moderation relative to their caloric needs is unchanged.0 -
jofjltncb6 wrote: »susan100df wrote: »Let me try a different approach then.
If anyone who says they "can't" moderate, were told today that if they could moderate, they were "gauranteed" their weekly target loss and wouldn't regain weight (hypothetical) again, do you think the people who stated they couldn't, would?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
This could work for some people.
I don't think moderation is the end all be all for weight loss and maintaining though. While I think moderation would be ideal, it may not work out that way for me. If it doesn't work out that I can moderate, that doesn't mean that I have failed as a human being or anything negative.
The disdain for people that want the easy way out puzzles me. I'm working very hard to lose and will continue to work very hard to maintain. If a magical unicorn showed up and said they were blessing me with a healthy weight without me having to do anything or think about it again, I'd take it in a skinny minute without shame.
When I was growing up calorie counts for food wasn't readily available but lots of fad diet information was. Nutrition (calorie count) information has gotten better while the fad diet information is even more available due to the internet. Many people feel desperate in their quest to lose weight. I understand why someone would get sucked in. Desperation makes people do many stupid things.
Perhaps we have differing definitions of the word, but I believe moderation is actually the *only* thing that works in maintenance. How one arrives at their moderated calories may differ, but the necessity of moderation relative to their caloric needs is unchanged.
Sorry, I was unclear. I meant moderating all foods. Not moderating calories. Moderating calories is how you maintain. There may be certain foods that I will not ever be able to eat in moderation.0 -
This is such an interesting discussion... One thing I didn't see come up (or may be missed): why does there have to be just one definition of moderation?
If person A can "moderate" ice cream by having just one portion from time to time, and can keep it in the house without finishing the box in one go; and person B can "moderate" ice-cream by rarely allowing it in the house and on those occasions eating the whole tub in one go, guilt-free, and if over a year A and B ate the same amount of ice-cream - or even not necessarily, but they lost weight / maintained their loss equally successfully.... Is B practcing "moderation" and does it the **** matter?
For some things I am A and for other things (or possibly times) B. I suspect most people are. The point is, not only will you rarely succeed in shaming or scaring B into behaving like A, you're actually not doing them any favours if you do succeed.0 -
The problem with the hypothetical is that its based on two mistaken premises: 1. That people value continued life over all other things, and 2. That people are essentially rational.
Their own lives are pretty special to most people, but, as others have pointed out, sometimes they only want that life on certain terms of their own. My father, for instance, made deliberate decisions that shortened his life but (I assume) let him enjoy it more.
As for being rational, well, you're totally right that people who use the "can't" position are being very irrational about it. And if you are implying that they are using this irrational approach to move blame for their behavior away from themselves, then you're right again. If a person can just stop saying "can't," and own the responsibility for their behavior, then, yes, a big part of the problem would be solved. So if you want to call it "fear" of the thing causing their weightloss downfall, ok. I would say its more just recognition of the problem, and taking responsibility for solving it, but I suppose if you were to fear the thing causing the issue, then that would be an approach to avoiding it.0 -
Let me try a different approach then.
If anyone who says they "can't" moderate, were told today that if they could moderate, they were "gauranteed" their weekly target loss and wouldn't regain weight (hypothetical) again, do you think the people who stated they couldn't, would?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
For me, I doubt it. I would still have cravings from the moderate amount of sweets or carbs I ate and be miserable. I found a better way for me.0 -
I've consigned to the fact that fear of death isn't going to work for everyone. I believe where I went wrong here was that people really cared enough about life, that they'd be willing to do what they need to do to preserve it. My bad.
The problem with fear tactics is that for most people fear dissipates over time. For example the shootings and bombings that you used...yes for a period of time people are afraid but over time people go back to normal until something else comes along to cause fear.
Depends. I've had morbidly obese patients (3 whom I've actually helped reduce more than 200lbs) referred to me by a doctor letting them know that if they didn't change, they shouldn't expect a long life. I'd throw it in there here and there, but relied more on their successes (whether it be weight loss or new personal best on an exercise) because it was something more they strived for since success usually brings more effort.Does this fear approach work well with clients? Do you think it's ethical to use this approach even if it is effective (short term at best in the vast majority of cases)? Becuase a doctor telling a patient that their behaviour is going to kill them is one thing; they have the expertise, medical histories and the statistics that back that advice up. They can say it with relative certainty.
Lol, given that people react to fear on a daily basis (look at how shootings and bombings are now causing political rhetoric amongst Americans), I think fear can be used to an extend. But again, being more optimistic than pessimistic, I'd use the fear of something to help them achieve success by means of overcoming them.Is it wise to tell this to people that have a hard time sticking to a diet plan, nearly all of which are not in the crisis of dying if they take one more bite? Is it good to try to instill that sort of fear in a person? Is it wise to place that sort of pressure on them to the point where they fear for their lives if they fall off the wagon? Considering that the vast majority of people that lose weight will gain it back, I think that inserting a false sense of fear into that situation would be in extremely poor taste.
It is rarely the emotionally unstable that achieve healthy goals. I don't see how this approach would strengthen a person's emotional well being.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Emotions for the most part are temporary always being replaced by another emotion.
We see many examples in the weight loss world...people lose weight...people feel "good"...fear or sadness comes along and for many people the cycle begins again.
Fear could be useful initially but that fear has to be replaced with another emotion to continue. Fear in most cases can not be a long time motivator. If we could guarantee quick results then fear might work but we can't and we become complacent. Plus unless danger from weight is immediate most people believe they can always "start tomorrow". Most health issues from being over weight are accumulative long range and not necessarily immediate.
Besides using "fear" on someone is really close to sounding like a threat...most people don't respond well to being threatened...at least I don't.
It's basically now come down to the point that if someone really wants something bad enough, they WILL do what it takes to achieve it.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Maybe what people value is "living", and under the right circumstances, you may be able to help people redefine that. That, Or just track down that awful picture that has magical powers and show it to them
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How about this ..... Instead of "pretending" these foods are poison and going to kill you ... Do your research on refined sugar. You will find that this product "IS in fact" poison and has a distinct and immediate physical and psychological impact on your body just as the refined poppy, morphine and heroin, does. Which one of us will consume heroine !!! If you are using MyFitnessPal you are probably trying to better your health so I assume you probably wouldn't take heroine.
If you took time to understand the slavery, the religions involvement, FDA's negligence, all for the love of money and taxes, let alone the ending medical results of the sugar history. Just Look at the size of society (don't leave out our kids) look at the physical condition of our society (don't leave out diabetes 2) and look at the mental health of society (don't leave out depression). These and much more are not pretend results these ARE real results of poisoning ourselves.
We are all sick - why??? Because we live in a society that says it's ok to poison yourself with the drug of our choice. Its OK to poison yourself even just a little or in moderation because it feels good. People like us just happen to make our drug - food. People like us are addicted to the stuff and moderation is not acceptable any more than it would be for an alcoholic or druggy.
Did we get fat by eating vegetables including potatoes - no
Did we get fat eating good grains (not the refined white ones) - no
Did we get fat on eating meat or cheese - probably not
Did we get fat in eating fruit - unlikely
Even if you binge on foods like the above ... You can't do it for long because it will actually fill you up.
We got fat on eating crap. So let's stop lying to ourselves and convincing ourselves that moderation with sugar is ok - it's not - refined sugar is more addictive than heroine - get off the stuff so you can find pleasure in your fruits which will then become sweeter to you
Good health and weight loss will automatically follow
No I'm not a health food nut - I do eat canned and packaged foods
No I'm not a fit and trim person on some sort of health kick
I just educated myself on sugar and it's BAD0 -
I haven't read all four pages yet. But I plan to. This is interesting and I want to quickly throw my two cents in the mix. I definitely get the point.
BUT I developed some very disordered eating when I was younger because of fear. I got so completely wrapped up in what would happen if I ate something I eliminated from my diet... this started an overwhelming fixation on "good" and "bad" foods. I was living with this intense fear of "bad" foods. Because of this, I wouldn't let myself moderate because I had a very unhealthy relationship with food. It was a long road back from that and still have some minor lingering issues. But that's just me. And everyone is different.0 -
7.5 billion humans on earth and you can't
understand why they all don't think and reason like you?0 -
How about this ..... Instead of "pretending" these foods are poison and going to kill you ... Do your research on refined sugar. You will find that this product "IS in fact" poison and has a distinct and immediate physical and psychological impact on your body just as the refined poppy, morphine and heroin, does.
<snip>
I just educated myself on sugar and it's BAD
I'm going to guess that if asked to provide your sources for said 'research', you'd point to either Taubes or Mercola.
The rest of your post is unsubstantiated pseudoscience. Excess calorie intake is what makes us fat.0 -
How about this ..... Instead of "pretending" these foods are poison and going to kill you ... Do your research on refined sugar. You will find that this product "IS in fact" poison and has a distinct and immediate physical and psychological impact on your body just as the refined poppy, morphine and heroin, does. Which one of us will consume heroine !!! If you are using MyFitnessPal you are probably trying to better your health so I assume you probably wouldn't take heroine.
If you took time to understand the slavery, the religions involvement, FDA's negligence, all for the love of money and taxes, let alone the ending medical results of the sugar history. Just Look at the size of society (don't leave out our kids) look at the physical condition of our society (don't leave out diabetes 2) and look at the mental health of society (don't leave out depression). These and much more are not pretend results these ARE real results of poisoning ourselves.
We are all sick - why??? Because we live in a society that says it's ok to poison yourself with the drug of our choice. Its OK to poison yourself even just a little or in moderation because it feels good. People like us just happen to make our drug - food. People like us are addicted to the stuff and moderation is not acceptable any more than it would be for an alcoholic or druggy.
Did we get fat by eating vegetables including potatoes - no
Did we get fat eating good grains (not the refined white ones) - no
Did we get fat on eating meat or cheese - probably not
Did we get fat in eating fruit - unlikely
Even if you binge on foods like the above ... You can't do it for long because it will actually fill you up.
We got fat on eating crap. So let's stop lying to ourselves and convincing ourselves that moderation with sugar is ok - it's not - refined sugar is more addictive than heroine - get off the stuff so you can find pleasure in your fruits which will then become sweeter to you
Good health and weight loss will automatically follow
No I'm not a health food nut - I do eat canned and packaged foods
No I'm not a fit and trim person on some sort of health kick
I just educated myself on sugar and it's BAD
I'm sorry, but this post in almost entirely 100% wrong wrong wrong.0 -
Did we get fat by eating vegetables including potatoes - yes
Did we get fat eating good grains (not the refined white ones) - yes
Did we get fat on eating meat or cheese - *kitten* yes
Did we get fat in eating fruit - definitely
Girl, I could eat 2-3 pounds of cherries in one sitting. And don't even get me started on delicious meat dishes marinated in oils and spices.
CALORIES made you fat. Where they come from is completely irrelevant to your body.0 -
I believe the initial comments were poorly written. Just like a people have problems with food intake, other's problems are finding ways to express themselves clearly, as in your case. If I try to put your words together. to make sense of it all, you don't seem to be able to understand why there are people in this world who over eat knowing that the outcomes are negative? Obviously you have either never had an eating issue or you have overcome one. In either case, good on you. People overeat for many reasons. Perhaps you'd have a different outlook on this issue if you researched your query. You would then understand why so many people are having a hard time with food. If you are a personal trainer I think it would be an asset for you to do this research and help your cliental in their quest for health. Over coming an eating disorder isn't as easy as choosing which color shirt you are going to wear for that day. I'm fifty-three years old and am still trying to find my self in a weight loss journey. Easy does it and one day at a time.0
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How about this ..... Instead of "pretending" these foods are poison and going to kill you ... Do your research on refined sugar. You will find that this product "IS in fact" poison and has a distinct and immediate physical and psychological impact on your body just as the refined poppy, morphine and heroin, does. Which one of us will consume heroine !!! If you are using MyFitnessPal you are probably trying to better your health so I assume you probably wouldn't take heroine.
If you took time to understand the slavery, the religions involvement, FDA's negligence, all for the love of money and taxes, let alone the ending medical results of the sugar history. Just Look at the size of society (don't leave out our kids) look at the physical condition of our society (don't leave out diabetes 2) and look at the mental health of society (don't leave out depression). These and much more are not pretend results these ARE real results of poisoning ourselves.
We are all sick - why??? Because we live in a society that says it's ok to poison yourself with the drug of our choice. Its OK to poison yourself even just a little or in moderation because it feels good. People like us just happen to make our drug - food. People like us are addicted to the stuff and moderation is not acceptable any more than it would be for an alcoholic or druggy.
Did we get fat by eating vegetables including potatoes - no
Did we get fat eating good grains (not the refined white ones) - no
Did we get fat on eating meat or cheese - probably not
Did we get fat in eating fruit - unlikely
Even if you binge on foods like the above ... You can't do it for long because it will actually fill you up.
We got fat on eating crap. So let's stop lying to ourselves and convincing ourselves that moderation with sugar is ok - it's not - refined sugar is more addictive than heroine - get off the stuff so you can find pleasure in your fruits which will then become sweeter to you
Good health and weight loss will automatically follow
No I'm not a health food nut - I do eat canned and packaged foods
No I'm not a fit and trim person on some sort of health kick
I just educated myself on sugar and it's BAD
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