Considering Creatine

24

Replies

  • schandler1011
    schandler1011 Posts: 83 Member
    I've just started taking a supplement because the products I use came out with a new line (whey protein shakes and all that). It's pretty delicious. I have noticed a fair amount of difference. Mainly I need to workout for longer and push through it. However if you take more than the minimum dose I have seen friends with great results for making gains.
  • Wheelhouse15
    Wheelhouse15 Posts: 5,575 Member
    nakedraygun wrote: »
    When EAS was the first to manufacture and market creatine back in the 90s, I was an early adopter. I've never felt it necessary to buy anything other than just the white powdered form.

    The loading phase and the cycling is very outdated information that was given as advice before more science was done on the stuff. (The inventor, Anthony Alameda had a hunch about the stuff, tried it on himself and was convinced, had a meeting with Bill Phillips the next day and the rest, as they say, is history.)

    Anyway, I've used it on and off for years (when I've been on and off in the gym) to no ill-side effects -- and the pump is real.

    Ahh yes, good old EAS Phosphagen Creatine, couldn't mix it in anything and tasted like crap. The good old days!
  • giantrobot_powerlifting
    giantrobot_powerlifting Posts: 2,598 Member
    edited January 2016
    Wheelhouse15 wrote: »
    nakedraygun wrote: »
    When EAS was the first to manufacture and market creatine back in the 90s, I was an early adopter. I've never felt it necessary to buy anything other than just the white powdered form.

    The loading phase and the cycling is very outdated information that was given as advice before more science was done on the stuff. (The inventor, Anthony Alameda had a hunch about the stuff, tried it on himself and was convinced, had a meeting with Bill Phillips the next day and the rest, as they say, is history.)

    Anyway, I've used it on and off for years (when I've been on and off in the gym) to no ill-side effects -- and the pump is real.

    Ahh yes, good old EAS Phosphagen Creatine, couldn't mix it in anything and tasted like crap. The good old days!
    Everything tasted like crap back then. The whey protein? Yuck. I had to blend it with frozen fruit, yogurt, and whole milk just choke it down twice a day. PowerBars... more like buttock-flavored sawdust. I was kind of expecting the same-old-same in 2014, but supplement companies have made great strides in the flavor department since then.
  • Wheelhouse15
    Wheelhouse15 Posts: 5,575 Member
    nakedraygun wrote: »
    Wheelhouse15 wrote: »
    nakedraygun wrote: »
    When EAS was the first to manufacture and market creatine back in the 90s, I was an early adopter. I've never felt it necessary to buy anything other than just the white powdered form.

    The loading phase and the cycling is very outdated information that was given as advice before more science was done on the stuff. (The inventor, Anthony Alameda had a hunch about the stuff, tried it on himself and was convinced, had a meeting with Bill Phillips the next day and the rest, as they say, is history.)

    Anyway, I've used it on and off for years (when I've been on and off in the gym) to no ill-side effects -- and the pump is real.

    Ahh yes, good old EAS Phosphagen Creatine, couldn't mix it in anything and tasted like crap. The good old days!
    Everything tasted like crap back then. The whey protein? Yuck. I had to blend it with frozen fruit, yogurt, and whole milk just choke it down twice a day. PowerBars... more like buttock-flavored sawdust. I was kind of expecting the same old same in 2014, but supplement companies have made great strides in the flavor department.

    (In the voice of Monty Python characters) You had whey? We would have killed for whey! I only had Weider soy in deathray vanilla or rattlesnake venom choclate -- always go with the chocolate.
  • giantrobot_powerlifting
    giantrobot_powerlifting Posts: 2,598 Member
    Wheelhouse15 wrote: »
    nakedraygun wrote: »
    Wheelhouse15 wrote: »
    nakedraygun wrote: »
    When EAS was the first to manufacture and market creatine back in the 90s, I was an early adopter. I've never felt it necessary to buy anything other than just the white powdered form.

    The loading phase and the cycling is very outdated information that was given as advice before more science was done on the stuff. (The inventor, Anthony Alameda had a hunch about the stuff, tried it on himself and was convinced, had a meeting with Bill Phillips the next day and the rest, as they say, is history.)

    Anyway, I've used it on and off for years (when I've been on and off in the gym) to no ill-side effects -- and the pump is real.

    Ahh yes, good old EAS Phosphagen Creatine, couldn't mix it in anything and tasted like crap. The good old days!
    Everything tasted like crap back then. The whey protein? Yuck. I had to blend it with frozen fruit, yogurt, and whole milk just choke it down twice a day. PowerBars... more like buttock-flavored sawdust. I was kind of expecting the same old same in 2014, but supplement companies have made great strides in the flavor department.

    (In the voice of Monty Python characters) You had whey? We would have killed for whey! I only had Weider soy in deathray vanilla or rattlesnake venom choclate -- always go with the chocolate.
    I never used any supplements before I started reading Muscle Media 2000, which just happened to be the marketing arm of EAS (since owned by the same entity). MM2K was a different mag from all the other body building magazines (even though Duchaine column was nothing but steroids), it didn't have obviously juiced bodybuilders on the cover -- which is what I had no interest in becoming -- so it seemed like a reasonable approach to bodybuilding and supplementation.
  • Wheelhouse15
    Wheelhouse15 Posts: 5,575 Member
    nakedraygun wrote: »
    Wheelhouse15 wrote: »
    nakedraygun wrote: »
    Wheelhouse15 wrote: »
    nakedraygun wrote: »
    When EAS was the first to manufacture and market creatine back in the 90s, I was an early adopter. I've never felt it necessary to buy anything other than just the white powdered form.

    The loading phase and the cycling is very outdated information that was given as advice before more science was done on the stuff. (The inventor, Anthony Alameda had a hunch about the stuff, tried it on himself and was convinced, had a meeting with Bill Phillips the next day and the rest, as they say, is history.)

    Anyway, I've used it on and off for years (when I've been on and off in the gym) to no ill-side effects -- and the pump is real.

    Ahh yes, good old EAS Phosphagen Creatine, couldn't mix it in anything and tasted like crap. The good old days!
    Everything tasted like crap back then. The whey protein? Yuck. I had to blend it with frozen fruit, yogurt, and whole milk just choke it down twice a day. PowerBars... more like buttock-flavored sawdust. I was kind of expecting the same old same in 2014, but supplement companies have made great strides in the flavor department.

    (In the voice of Monty Python characters) You had whey? We would have killed for whey! I only had Weider soy in deathray vanilla or rattlesnake venom choclate -- always go with the chocolate.
    I never used any supplements before I started reading Muscle Media 2000, which just happened to be the marketing arm of EAS (since owned by the same entity). MM2K was a different mag from all the other body building magazines (even though Duchaine column was nothing but steroids), it didn't have obviously juiced bodybuilders on the cover -- which is what I had no interest in becoming -- so it seemed like a reasonable approach to bodybuilding and supplementation.

    I think all the mags were just suppliment ads with some articles, just like Prevention magazine is for it's segment of sumpliments and alternative treatments. It's too bad, but how many articles do you really need on building killer arms? ;)
  • giantrobot_powerlifting
    giantrobot_powerlifting Posts: 2,598 Member
    Wheelhouse15 wrote: »
    nakedraygun wrote: »
    Wheelhouse15 wrote: »
    nakedraygun wrote: »
    Wheelhouse15 wrote: »
    nakedraygun wrote: »
    When EAS was the first to manufacture and market creatine back in the 90s, I was an early adopter. I've never felt it necessary to buy anything other than just the white powdered form.

    The loading phase and the cycling is very outdated information that was given as advice before more science was done on the stuff. (The inventor, Anthony Alameda had a hunch about the stuff, tried it on himself and was convinced, had a meeting with Bill Phillips the next day and the rest, as they say, is history.)

    Anyway, I've used it on and off for years (when I've been on and off in the gym) to no ill-side effects -- and the pump is real.

    Ahh yes, good old EAS Phosphagen Creatine, couldn't mix it in anything and tasted like crap. The good old days!
    Everything tasted like crap back then. The whey protein? Yuck. I had to blend it with frozen fruit, yogurt, and whole milk just choke it down twice a day. PowerBars... more like buttock-flavored sawdust. I was kind of expecting the same old same in 2014, but supplement companies have made great strides in the flavor department.

    (In the voice of Monty Python characters) You had whey? We would have killed for whey! I only had Weider soy in deathray vanilla or rattlesnake venom choclate -- always go with the chocolate.
    I never used any supplements before I started reading Muscle Media 2000, which just happened to be the marketing arm of EAS (since owned by the same entity). MM2K was a different mag from all the other body building magazines (even though Duchaine column was nothing but steroids), it didn't have obviously juiced bodybuilders on the cover -- which is what I had no interest in becoming -- so it seemed like a reasonable approach to bodybuilding and supplementation.

    I think all the mags were just suppliment ads with some articles, just like Prevention magazine is for it's segment of sumpliments and alternative treatments. It's too bad, but how many articles do you really need on building killer arms? ;)

    :D:D:D

    Apparently, many. Bodybuilding magazines still turn out that flotsam with headlines like "build giant slabs of muscle..." in some kind of infinitely recycled roulette-wheel of only four possible headlines.

    *Groan*
  • richln
    richln Posts: 809 Member
    Wheelhouse15 wrote: »
    nakedraygun wrote: »
    Wheelhouse15 wrote: »
    nakedraygun wrote: »
    When EAS was the first to manufacture and market creatine back in the 90s, I was an early adopter. I've never felt it necessary to buy anything other than just the white powdered form.

    The loading phase and the cycling is very outdated information that was given as advice before more science was done on the stuff. (The inventor, Anthony Alameda had a hunch about the stuff, tried it on himself and was convinced, had a meeting with Bill Phillips the next day and the rest, as they say, is history.)

    Anyway, I've used it on and off for years (when I've been on and off in the gym) to no ill-side effects -- and the pump is real.

    Ahh yes, good old EAS Phosphagen Creatine, couldn't mix it in anything and tasted like crap. The good old days!
    Everything tasted like crap back then. The whey protein? Yuck. I had to blend it with frozen fruit, yogurt, and whole milk just choke it down twice a day. PowerBars... more like buttock-flavored sawdust. I was kind of expecting the same old same in 2014, but supplement companies have made great strides in the flavor department.

    (In the voice of Monty Python characters) You had whey? We would have killed for whey! I only had Weider soy in deathray vanilla or rattlesnake venom choclate -- always go with the chocolate.

    Lulz... early 90's Weider chocolate mass gainer. I am pretty sure the last step on the directions stated: "Try not to puke!"
  • Wheelhouse15
    Wheelhouse15 Posts: 5,575 Member
    richln wrote: »
    Wheelhouse15 wrote: »
    nakedraygun wrote: »
    Wheelhouse15 wrote: »
    nakedraygun wrote: »
    When EAS was the first to manufacture and market creatine back in the 90s, I was an early adopter. I've never felt it necessary to buy anything other than just the white powdered form.

    The loading phase and the cycling is very outdated information that was given as advice before more science was done on the stuff. (The inventor, Anthony Alameda had a hunch about the stuff, tried it on himself and was convinced, had a meeting with Bill Phillips the next day and the rest, as they say, is history.)

    Anyway, I've used it on and off for years (when I've been on and off in the gym) to no ill-side effects -- and the pump is real.

    Ahh yes, good old EAS Phosphagen Creatine, couldn't mix it in anything and tasted like crap. The good old days!
    Everything tasted like crap back then. The whey protein? Yuck. I had to blend it with frozen fruit, yogurt, and whole milk just choke it down twice a day. PowerBars... more like buttock-flavored sawdust. I was kind of expecting the same old same in 2014, but supplement companies have made great strides in the flavor department.

    (In the voice of Monty Python characters) You had whey? We would have killed for whey! I only had Weider soy in deathray vanilla or rattlesnake venom choclate -- always go with the chocolate.

    Lulz... early 90's Weider chocolate mass gainer. I am pretty sure the last step on the directions stated: "Try not to puke!"

    Yes, right after "Hold nose" and "Drink fast".
  • TR0berts
    TR0berts Posts: 7,739 Member
    Hmmm... I don't remember having any problems with the Vanilla Weider Mass Gainer back in the early-mid 90s. I don't remember it tasting good, but not particularly bad.

    And I'm not sure if I want to know how nrg knows what buttock-flavored sawdust tastes like.
  • Wheelhouse15
    Wheelhouse15 Posts: 5,575 Member
    TR0berts wrote: »
    Hmmm... I don't remember having any problems with the Vanilla Weider Mass Gainer back in the early-mid 90s. I don't remember it tasting good, but not particularly bad.

    And I'm not sure if I want to know how nrg knows what buttock-flavored sawdust tastes like.

    The soy I had was in the mid80s but I didn't use the mass gainer but Weider wasn't known for flavours.
  • AnvilHead
    AnvilHead Posts: 18,343 Member
    nakedraygun wrote: »
    Wheelhouse15 wrote: »
    nakedraygun wrote: »
    Wheelhouse15 wrote: »
    nakedraygun wrote: »
    Wheelhouse15 wrote: »
    nakedraygun wrote: »
    When EAS was the first to manufacture and market creatine back in the 90s, I was an early adopter. I've never felt it necessary to buy anything other than just the white powdered form.

    The loading phase and the cycling is very outdated information that was given as advice before more science was done on the stuff. (The inventor, Anthony Alameda had a hunch about the stuff, tried it on himself and was convinced, had a meeting with Bill Phillips the next day and the rest, as they say, is history.)

    Anyway, I've used it on and off for years (when I've been on and off in the gym) to no ill-side effects -- and the pump is real.

    Ahh yes, good old EAS Phosphagen Creatine, couldn't mix it in anything and tasted like crap. The good old days!
    Everything tasted like crap back then. The whey protein? Yuck. I had to blend it with frozen fruit, yogurt, and whole milk just choke it down twice a day. PowerBars... more like buttock-flavored sawdust. I was kind of expecting the same old same in 2014, but supplement companies have made great strides in the flavor department.

    (In the voice of Monty Python characters) You had whey? We would have killed for whey! I only had Weider soy in deathray vanilla or rattlesnake venom choclate -- always go with the chocolate.
    I never used any supplements before I started reading Muscle Media 2000, which just happened to be the marketing arm of EAS (since owned by the same entity). MM2K was a different mag from all the other body building magazines (even though Duchaine column was nothing but steroids), it didn't have obviously juiced bodybuilders on the cover -- which is what I had no interest in becoming -- so it seemed like a reasonable approach to bodybuilding and supplementation.

    I think all the mags were just suppliment ads with some articles, just like Prevention magazine is for it's segment of sumpliments and alternative treatments. It's too bad, but how many articles do you really need on building killer arms? ;)

    :D:D:D

    Apparently, many. Bodybuilding magazines still turn out that flotsam with headlines like "build giant slabs of muscle..." in some kind of infinitely recycled roulette-wheel of only four possible headlines.

    *Groan*

    That's why "Muscle and Fitness" is sometimes referred to as "Muscle and Fiction", lol. It's more of a supplement catalog than it is a magazine. They also conveniently fail to acknowledge that the workout routines being used by 'roided up BB'ers aren't necessarily appropriate for natural lifters, who don't have the same, errrr, "supplementation" levels or recovery ability.

    I can still remember the taste of the weight gainer shake I started taking in the late '70s ( MLO, I think). It was like somebody went into a school classroom, scooped all the chalk dust off the rail of the blackboard and put it in a jug. You didn't drink that stuff, you choked it down as fast as you could and then made nasty faces for 10 minutes afterward.

    As far as the OP goes - creatine is one of the very few supplements on the market which has actually shown through scientific research to be worth taking. @jmule24 provided the examine.com link upthread, which has plenty of resources to back up the benefits.
  • jmule24
    jmule24 Posts: 1,382 Member
    Creatine was banned for high school athletes in my day('98-2001)......."It's anabolic like a steroid, makes your hair fall out, and shrinks your junk....."
  • kjm3579
    kjm3579 Posts: 3,974 Member
    I've been looking at Creatine supplements as well and was considering this: http://www.amazon.com/BlueBonnet-Extreme-Workout-Powder-Vigorous/dp/B00806FK8I
  • AnvilHead
    AnvilHead Posts: 18,343 Member
    edited January 2016
    kjm3579 wrote: »
    I've been looking at Creatine supplements as well and was considering this: http://www.amazon.com/BlueBonnet-Extreme-Workout-Powder-Vigorous/dp/B00806FK8I

    That's a pre-workout, not a creatine supplement. Completely different thing. It doesn't even contain any creatine.
  • Wheelhouse15
    Wheelhouse15 Posts: 5,575 Member
    kjm3579 wrote: »
    I've been looking at Creatine supplements as well and was considering this: http://www.amazon.com/BlueBonnet-Extreme-Workout-Powder-Vigorous/dp/B00806FK8I

    Any creatine suppliment that is more expensive than Creapure (or other quality monohydrate) is just designer hype, but as mentioned this is a pre and not the same thing. Suppliment companies love to throw out new terms and claim that something is revolutionary and better than the old but it's all just hype and the products will be gone in 3 years for new ones that promise the same but never deliver.
  • kjm3579
    kjm3579 Posts: 3,974 Member
    AnvilHead wrote: »
    kjm3579 wrote: »
    I've been looking at Creatine supplements as well and was considering this: http://www.amazon.com/BlueBonnet-Extreme-Workout-Powder-Vigorous/dp/B00806FK8I

    That's a pre-workout, not a creatine supplement. Completely different thing. It doesn't even contain any creatine.

    Label says 2000 mg creatine.....
  • DaddieCat
    DaddieCat Posts: 3,643 Member
    kjm3579 wrote: »
    AnvilHead wrote: »
    kjm3579 wrote: »
    I've been looking at Creatine supplements as well and was considering this: http://www.amazon.com/BlueBonnet-Extreme-Workout-Powder-Vigorous/dp/B00806FK8I

    That's a pre-workout, not a creatine supplement. Completely different thing. It doesn't even contain any creatine.

    Label says 2000 mg creatine.....

    Actually it says 2000mg of Muscle Pump stack and then lists creatine as one of the ingredients in said stack. Which means you don't actually know how much is in there. Additionally, 2000mg is 2grams, while the recommended daily creatine intake is 5grams.
  • Wheelhouse15
    Wheelhouse15 Posts: 5,575 Member
    edited January 2016
    kjm3579 wrote: »
    AnvilHead wrote: »
    kjm3579 wrote: »
    I've been looking at Creatine supplements as well and was considering this: http://www.amazon.com/BlueBonnet-Extreme-Workout-Powder-Vigorous/dp/B00806FK8I

    That's a pre-workout, not a creatine supplement. Completely different thing. It doesn't even contain any creatine.

    Label says 2000 mg creatine.....

    Which is less than half of the 5g recommend for maintenance. It's often put into other products to appear as of you are getting a better deal but the reality is only modified creatine e.g. Monohydrate can actually increase usable phosphocreatine in your muscles to super physiological levels; regular creatine won't do it.
  • legacybush
    legacybush Posts: 78 Member
    I heard a rumor that creatine makes you grow a 3rd nipple...hasn't happened to me yet but if I continue praying to my cat statue I'm sure it'll come in one of these days!
  • tillerstouch
    tillerstouch Posts: 608 Member
    legacybush wrote: »
    I heard a rumor that creatine makes you grow a 3rd nipple...hasn't happened to me yet but if I continue praying to my cat statue I'm sure it'll come in one of these days!

    So if I take triple the dose I could maybe get 2 extra nipples? And have 4?
  • pbryd
    pbryd Posts: 364 Member
    I've also never noticed an improvement when taking creatine. I've tried a few times because the evidence is so strong that it works but nothing .
  • Wheelhouse15
    Wheelhouse15 Posts: 5,575 Member
    pbryd wrote: »
    I've also never noticed an improvement when taking creatine. I've tried a few times because the evidence is so strong that it works but nothing .

    There are non-responders, about 20% I believe, but also creatine isn't necessarily going to show much unless you are doing a particular rep range etc and it's not like steroids so you don't necessarily get a noticeable boast. You might end up with an extra rep at 80% so that's good but you might not find it particularly amazing.
  • psuLemon
    psuLemon Posts: 38,427 MFP Moderator
    edited February 2016
    Wheelhouse15 wrote: »
    psulemon wrote: »
    Personally, creatine gives me the worst stomach aches.

    How do you take your creatine? I find that if I mix it with my oatmeal it works best for avoiding digetional distress.

    Sorry I didn't see this, for some reason I am only getting half of my notifications.


    I tried it a few different ways (different mixes and different timing) and used several different brands. The methods I tried:
    • Plain water at night
    • Plain water before a workout
    • Mixed with grape juice (saw this trick for others who experience in GI pain)
    • Tried in water with my dinner

    I didn't mix with food, and I am not even sure I would try it anymore since my tendinitis has been flaring and I am limited to free weights on my lifting days. I will say, i suspect I might be a non responder (just like I am with caffeine) since I never really noticed any improvements for the few months I was taking it.
  • Wheelhouse15
    Wheelhouse15 Posts: 5,575 Member
    psulemon wrote: »
    Wheelhouse15 wrote: »
    psulemon wrote: »
    Personally, creatine gives me the worst stomach aches.

    How do you take your creatine? I find that if I mix it with my oatmeal it works best for avoiding digetional distress.

    Sorry I didn't see this, for some reason I am only getting half of my notifications.


    I tried it a few different ways (different mixes and different timing) and used several different brands. The methods I tried:
    • Plain water at night
    • Plain water before a workout
    • Mixed with grape juice (saw this trick for others who experience in GI pain)
    • Tried in water with my dinner

    I didn't mix with food, and I am not even sure I would try it anymore since my tendinitis has been flaring and I am limited to free weights on my lifting days. I will say, i suspect I might be a non responder (just like I am with caffeine) since I never really noticed any improvements for the few months I was taking it.

    Sounds like it's not worth it, hope your tendinitis gets better soon, I had to take over a year off once to resolve a case of it in my forearms.
  • finneyjason218
    finneyjason218 Posts: 166 Member
    30% of people are non responders - if that's you don't bother, but there's only one way to find out.

    If you are part of the 70% - No reason at all not to use it. 5g a day, no cycling, doesn't matter when you take it.

    Give it a few days to build up in your system (using a 'loading' dose will not speed this up), and enjoy the strength gains! If you take it for a few weeks and don't see noticeable strength gains (we're talking about moving a few extra pounds around the gym - its not steroids), then sorry but you're in the 30%

    No side effects, no negative health effects, cheaper than dirt, no reason not to just take it forever it it works for you. I've been taking it for like 8 years now, I only notice it when I miss it for a couple days in a row.
  • giantrobot_powerlifting
    giantrobot_powerlifting Posts: 2,598 Member
    jmule24 wrote: »
    Creatine was banned for high school athletes in my day('98-2001)......."It's anabolic like a steroid, makes your hair fall out, and shrinks your junk....."

    @jmule24 ... Are you sure you don't mean androstenedione?

    http://www.rice.edu/~jenky/sports/andro.html
  • pbryd
    pbryd Posts: 364 Member
    Wheelhouse15 wrote: »
    There are non-responders, about 20% I believe, but also creatine isn't necessarily going to show much unless you are doing a particular rep range etc and it's not like steroids so you don't necessarily get a noticeable boast. You might end up with an extra rep at 80% so that's good but you might not find it particularly amazing.

    I'm working in the 4-8 rep range and made some improvements over January. When you take into the fact I'm on a slow bulk and in a calorie surplus, it's impossible to attribute an extra rep to creatine.

    I'll probably use up what I have and not replace it when the tub is empty.

    Phil
  • Wheelhouse15
    Wheelhouse15 Posts: 5,575 Member
    pbryd wrote: »
    Wheelhouse15 wrote: »
    There are non-responders, about 20% I believe, but also creatine isn't necessarily going to show much unless you are doing a particular rep range etc and it's not like steroids so you don't necessarily get a noticeable boast. You might end up with an extra rep at 80% so that's good but you might not find it particularly amazing.

    I'm working in the 4-8 rep range and made some improvements over January. When you take into the fact I'm on a slow bulk and in a calorie surplus, it's impossible to attribute an extra rep to creatine.

    I'll probably use up what I have and not replace it when the tub is empty.

    Phil

    It's hard to tell the effects when you are doing so many thing at once. Most people just continue to take it even if they aren't sure what it's doing. Jason Blaha estimates that it gives you a real but tiny boast in performance of something like 8% (from memory so not sure off hand but it was below 10%) so he doesn't take it and he's a highly successful powerlifter.
  • jmule24
    jmule24 Posts: 1,382 Member
    edited February 2016
    nakedraygun wrote: »
    jmule24 wrote: »
    Creatine was banned for high school athletes in my day('98-2001)......."It's anabolic like a steroid, makes your hair fall out, and shrinks your junk....."

    @jmule24 ... Are you sure you don't mean androstenedione?

    http://www.rice.edu/~jenky/sports/andro.html

    @nakedraygun https://www.wiaawi.org/Portals/0/PDF/Health/performanceenhancers.pdf

    look up "discouraged" It wasn't actually banned by WIAA but my HS coaches said if they found out we were taking it we could be kicked off the team.
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