The February 2016 Running Challenge
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@Stoshew71 - Apologies for cluttering up the thread with another "long run thoughts" post.
I wanted to process the Jack Daniels video you posted for a while. He has an excellent point about how people have no doubts that a person who has run 2 miles in training can run a 10k race, or how 100 mile ultra runners have a longest training run of 30 miles. This was what I was trying to process.
I agree on that point but it is also one-dimensional in that the comparison is solely on the ratio of training run length to race run length and whether people who have run that race distance before believe a new runner could make it with only that smaller distance as their longest run. The mental aspect is the biggest no matter the distance.
However, and @kristinegift touched on this, there is more at play than just being able to mentally push yourself forward. I have no proof to back this up but I find it very hard to believe that a fixed time of 2.5 hours provides the best physiological benefit to running in a glycogen depleted state at "easy pace".
The approach I see with these types of plans is to run the race at "race pace" which for even marathons is a rather surprisingly high heart rate for such a distance. It is possible, but takes a different toll on the body and recovery periods betwewn a "race pace" run and "easy pace" run are worlds apart.
So the physiological gains these drive at assume you can run at that effort and train your body to consume enough fats to get you to the finish line before you bonk, and at that effort when your glycogen depletes you truly bonk and there is no more running that day.
For an "endurance runner", which is a term I am using to describe someone running a long, long time, say 4.5+ hours (maybe 5+ but hopefully you get the idea). This kind of runner is only going to reach the finish if they run more towards their easy pace. In this case it is not necessarily how long you can delay glycogen depletion (because it is guaranteed with that sort of running time), but how you can run in a depleted (or keto) state.
I have nothing to support this, but I would be very surprised if physiological adaptations did not occur to develop the bodies ability to run in that keto state, which is not a state you will run in if you cap your running time at 2.5 hours.
Why would an ultra runner run 30 miles if it gave no benefit over a 20 miler?0 -
@WhatMeRunning and @Stoshew71 Yeah we probably could have made a thread in the group forum... but we're too far gone to do it now!0
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@kristinegift - I think I might not be as unique of a specimen as I might like to think. As you mentioned all of my runs were fair distances, 100% of the at easy effort pace. My 3 marathons were run the same way I trained, at easy effort pace. I could not keep doing this beyond 3 fulls though because my base was nowhere near that sort of thing. But I was able to do the 3 with no big issues (not at all implying they were not super difficult).0
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2/1 - Rest day. Semi-planned.
2/2 - Snow Day
2/3 - 4 miles on treadmill
2/4 - 5.1 miles on treadmill (Trek class). Sore knee this morning...hoping it is from shoveling and not running related. Didn't get worse when I ran, so I am going to cautiously push through.
2/5 - 4 miles on treadmill
2/6 - Life day...too busy to squeeze in a run :-(
2/7 - 5.4 windy miles, but warm for Feb.
2/8 - Another life day. Wife's mother in hospital not well, so she is out of town...gotta get kids to school, etc.
2/9 - 4 miles on treadmill. Convinced all three kids to go to the Y with me after dinner.
2/10 - 2/14 - Nothing.
2/15 - Again, 0.
2/16 - 4 miles on treadmill, hotter than blazes in the gym!
2/17 - Another life day.
2/18 - 4.1 wet, squishy, windy, springy miles...it was fun!
2/19 - 4 miles on a teeny, tiny indoor track (76 laps)
2/20 - Spin class with my Y friends...raising funds
2/21 - 4.3 miles, nice and comfortable
2/22 - 5.2 easy miles. Felt like I could have run all night, but family / duty called and I had to head home.
2/23 - 3.5 miles on treadmill + weights/abs
2/24 - Planned rest day. Been so long since I actually needed that...I may have forgotten how!
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MorningGhost14 wrote: »My most recent purchase....
From what I can tell, this sums your attitude perfectly!
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Good morning running friends, Another good run this morning. It feels so good to be getting back to running.
Races: March 5th 5k0 -
@Stoshew71 @kristinegift while I'm some months to years from needing this training information, it's still interesting. Personally, I never thought I'd be able to "run" more than an hour. If I get gain the ability to run more than 3 hours, I plan on it.
I'm with you Elise! It feels like I'm a long way away from worrying about if I should run more than 2.5 hours. Just happy to have my HMs under that!
Amen! Ditto!0 -
Glad to see this thread. Been plodding around with walk/run intervals the last month or so and just signed up for a group running program with our local Fleet Feet that starts in March to train for a 5k. Will likely lurk until then. Baby steps is the name of the game for me. Used to be in much better shape and I still expect my body to function how it did back then. Nope!0
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Glad to see this thread. Been plodding around with walk/run intervals the last month or so and just signed up for a group running program with our local Fleet Feet that starts in March to train for a 5k. Will likely lurk until then. Baby steps is the name of the game for me. Used to be in much better shape and I still expect my body to function how it did back then. Nope!
Welcome! Jump on in if you want to start you training early!0 -
@Stoshew71 @kristinegift while I'm some months to years from needing this training information, it's still interesting. Personally, I never thought I'd be able to "run" more than an hour. If I get gain the ability to run more than 3 hours, I plan on it.
@Elise4270 18 months ago I couldn't run 10 minutes, now I can run 2+ hours at easy pace and am slowly adding distance/time to my long runs. I also do random ( body tells me when ) cutback weeks. I have completed 2 HM's in February and both were right around 2:12:00.
A big thank you to @Stoshew71, @kristinegift , @7lenny7 , @MorningGhost14 and many others for all the little training tips and video links. Quite often its the passing comment in a conversation that has been the most helpful for me. A perfect example of that iskristinegift wrote: »Haha, yes I think it is good advice not to do as you've done! // That probably prepared your more physically and mentally than any 20 mile/5 hour run might have.
I think where most people would have a problem is doing those 4-5 hour training runs to "get the miles in" without the base during the week; if the midweek runs are just 3 to 4 miles and then someone tries to do 16-20 on the weekend, that's where you really set yourself up for a big fall. I experienced this in my first training cycle; my midweek runs were 3-4 miles, with ony 6-7 miler, then I was doing 15, 16, 18 miles on a Sunday... no wonder I spent half my training weeks toward the end babying injuries!0 -
2/1-3 slow miles + lots of yoga
2/2-5.4 miles+ strength training
2/3-7 miles
2/4-rest day
2/5-3.6 miles hill sprints +strength training
2/6-6.3 miles
2/7-12.2 miles
2/8- 3.3 easy miles + yoga
2/9-4 miles speedwork on treadmill+yoga
2/10-7 miles
2/11-3.5(?) miles +yoga
2/12-strength training
2/13-12 miles
2/14-rest day
2/15-3.4 miles treadmill intervals
2/16-4.4 miles +yoga
2/17-7.5 mile Tempo run +strength training
2/18-5.1 miles +yoga
2/19-rest day
2/20-7 miles
2/21-14 miles
2/22-4.6 miles +yoga
2/23-strength training
2/24-5.5 miles tempo
The running gods are bound and determined to mess with my plans this week. Super busy trying to get ready to go out of town for a ski weekend and lots going on at work. I got stuck at work late last night and missed the chance to do the 6 mile tempo run I had planned for yesterday evening. I was only able to fit in my strength training, so I got up early this morning to do it and it was pouring down rain. I don't mind running in a nice light rain and I have gotten caught in my fair share of downpours, but I don't intentionally head out the door to get drenched, so I had to suck it up and hit the treadmill. I am not one to do a tempo run on the treadmill, but it really wasn't that bad. I started out at 6mph and increased it 1 mph per minute up to 8mph where I held it for 10 minutes then went back down at 1mph per minute to 7.5, held for 5 minutes then finished it out decreasing speed for my cool down til I hit 45 minutes. Ended up with a total of 5.5 miles in 45 minutes and it wasn't at all "dreadful". Not much more running going to get done this week, but I will make sure to find a way to hit my goal since I am so close.
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@Stoshew71 @kristinegift while I'm some months to years from needing this training information, it's still interesting. Personally, I never thought I'd be able to "run" more than an hour. If I get gain the ability to run more than 3 hours, I plan on it.
Don't worry...you will!!!!
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WhatMeRunning wrote: »
Why would an ultra runner run 30 miles if it gave no benefit over a 20 miler?
Because we can.
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2/01: 3 miles, easy, 8:36 pace + 45 min x-training + core
2/02: 5 miles, tempo, 8:22 pace + 40 min x-training
2/03: 5 miles, speedwork (4x800m at 5K pace) + 45 min strength training + core
2/04: Off, 45 min x-training
2/05: 4 miles, easy, 8:40 pace
2/06: 5 miles, 3 miles at race pace (averaged 7:43) with warm up/cool down + 55 min strength training + core
2/07: 8 miles, long and easy, 8:39 pace
2/08: 3 miles, easy, 8:40 pace + 45 min x-training + core
2/09: 5 miles, speedwork, (6x2 minutes at 5K pace with 2 minutes recovery jog between)
2/10: 4 miles, easy, 8:54 pace + 45 min strength training + core
2/11: 1 mile, quick, 6:52 pace + 45 min x-training
2/12: 5 miles, easy, 8:45 pace
2/13: 5 miles, speedwork (1 mile/800m/2x400m at 5K pace) + 55 min strength training
2/14: 9 miles, long and easy, 8:34 pace
2/15: 3.5 miles, easy, 8:46 pace + 25 min x-training
2/16: 5 miles, tempo, 8:11 pace
2/17: 6 miles, super easy, 8:57 pace + 45 min x-training + core
2/18: 5.5 miles, speedwork (5x800m at 5K pace) + 50 min strength training + core
2/19: Rest day - preparing for my 5K race tomorrow
2/20: 2.5 mile warm up + 5K race (22:05 - new PR!)
2/21: 11 miles, long and easy + core
2/22: 6 miles, easy + 50 min strength training + core
2/23: 5 miles, tempo (2 miles at LTP)
2/24: 6 miles, easy + 45 min x-training + core
Total: 117.57 miles
Recap:
Today’s run was an easy 6 miles; easy but very exciting- we had 30+ mph winds so the first 3 miles were extra slow (heading in to the wind), and the last 3 were nice and speedy. The lake was super choppy too so I got sprayed quite a few times but that just added to the excitement! This was one of those runs that made me so incredibly happy to be alive, I’m pretty sure I was smiling during this whole run (even the parts where I was running into the wind XD)
Upcoming races:
3/12 - Leprechaun Leap (5K)
3/20 - Excalibur 10 Miler
3/26 - Chicago Quarter Marathon
4/09 - Chi Town Half Marathon
5/28 - Soldier Field Run (10 miles)0 -
02/02 8.00 mi
02/04 3.65 mi
02/07 6.43 mi
02/10 3.10 mi – Helping Homeless Animals Find “Rosier” Outcomes Virtual 5K
2/13 10.03 mi
2/16 3.00 mi
2/18 3.00 mi
2/21 13.1 mi – Disney Princess Half Marathon
TOTAL 50.31 mi
GOAL 50.00 mi
Last month, I grossly overestimated my mileage, this month, I totally underestimated it. Maybe one of these months I'll figure this out.
Upcoming Races:
04/02 - Philadelphia Hot Chocolate 15K
04/09 - Yuengling Light Lager Jogger 5K
04/16 – River Horse 6K
05/01 - Blue Cross Broad Street Run (10 miles)
09/18 - Rock 'n' Roll Philadelphia Half Marathon0 -
Hahaha I am loving the long run discussion. For the record, I am not saying for everyone to follow Jack Daniel's. I actually break the 2.5 hours a lot. I reference him for completeness. I also respect Daniels very much and while I may not follow him completely, I understand where he comes from and agree with the science he portrays.
Now a thing about Daniels... He is known for saying, "In addition to always being able to indicate the purpose of every workout performed, it is wise to always try to gain the maximum benefit out of the least amount of stress rather than trying to achieve the maximum benefit from the most amount of stress." (Daniels' Running Formula-3rd Edition page 57) In other words, how do I get the most pysiological bang for my buck without overdoing it? Daniels is all about doing the least amount of work to get the most benefit. So it is understandable he cuts it off at 2.5 hours.
Ryam Hall (maybe some of you heard of him) was the fastest American marathon runner who recently retired. He ended up hiring Jack Daniels as his coach after suffering many injuries. http://www.runnersworld.com/newswire/ryan-hall-now-being-coached-by-jack-daniels
So Jack is known as the guy who will work you hard but keep you from getting injured. Jack Daniels also has his doctorates in exercise psyiology. So what he says will be science based and will concentrate in that area.
Again, this is all a numbers game. Some people can run a long run a lot further and not worry about getting overtrained or hurt. All Jack is saying is that the pysiological benefits are lost once you go beyond 2.5 hours and only thing you are doing is risking injury. Again, Jack is all about most benefit with the least amount of stress.
Now do I run 3 hour long runs? Look at my strava entries and you will see quite a few of them. Some even 3:15 and 3;30. So yes, even I break Daniels rule. But I try to not do it very often. I also believe that while there may not be any pysiological benefit for going beyond 2.5 or 3 hours, there is defientely a mental benefit as many of you pointed out. There is a huge mental confidence builder for my first marathon experience. I was pumped up when I completed my very first 20 miler training run ever which took me over 3 hours. So I agree there is a benefit, even if only mental.0 -
WhatMeRunning wrote: »Why would an ultra runner run 30 miles if it gave no benefit over a 20 miler?MorningGhost14 wrote: »Because we can.
Actually, I have no idea why Jack even said this. Most ultra people I heard don't actually do a 30 mile training run (tho I could be wrong). Instead they do back to back long runs. So Saturday they would do a 20 miler and then Sunday do an 16 or 18 miler for example.0 -
Date Miles today. Miles for February
2/1 7.55 miles - 7.55
2/2 7.4 miles - 14.95
2/3 4.5 miles - 19.45
2/4 7 miles - 26.45
2/5 REST DAY
2/6 16 miles - 42.45
2/7 REST DAY
2/8 10.5 miles - 52.95
2/9 7.5 miles - 60.45
2/9 3.2 miles - 63.65
2/10 6.4 miles - 70.05
2/11 7.5 miles - 77.55
2/12 6.3 miles - 83.85
2/12 3.3 miles - 87.15 <<< Daily double
2/13 16 miles - 103.15
2/14 REST DAY Happy Valentines Day
2/15 8.1 miles - 111.25 << First run of 2 today
2/15 4 miles - 115.25 << Second run of the day. I hate cold rain.
2/16 10 miles - 125.25
2/17 5 miles - 130.25
2/18 11 miles - 141.25
2/19 6.2 miles - 147.45
2/20 16 miles - 163.45
2/21 REST DAY
2/22 8.5 miles - 171.95
2/22 4 miles - 175.95 << Another daily double
2/23 8 miles - 183.95
2/23 4 miles - 187.95 << Another daily double
2/24 6.2 miles - 194.15
Upcoming races:
UAH Spring Road Race 8K - 3/6
Oak Barrel HM - 4/2
Bridge Street HM - 4/10
Cotton Row Run 10K - 5/30
Firecracker Chase 10.2 miler - 6/25
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5BeautifulDays wrote: »I haven't dropped of the face of the planet...yet.
The half marathon went well. Even with walking through the water stations into short bathroom breaks my GPS said my time was 249 for 13 1/2 miles. I'm guessing my official time is a little over 245.
Unfortunately, I had to cut my trip short and rush home yesterday because my oldest son (19, and autistic) was rushed to the hospital with dka and the onset of type 1 diabetes. So here we are in the hospital and will be for a few days.
I am so sorry to hear about your son. My trip was cut short due to a medical emergency of one of my traveling companions, but fortunately for us, it happened before we left, so I was able to cancel and reschedule everything. Now I get to deal with filing an insurance claim.
I hope everything turns out okay for your son. I was thinking about you on Sunday, and I'm most definitely thinking about you, now!0 -
2/2 5 miles
2/8 6.6 miles - Nice and windy out there, felt like I was running on the spot at times, then I did my shoes up too tight toes have cramped on one side and the outside edge of the foot feels sore on the other, bit better this morning currently sitting at work with a massage ball under my feet.
2/15 3.4 miles
2/18 6.9 miles - Fast run last night felt really good fastest 5k and 10k that I've done so far.
2/20 4 miles
2/21 8.3 miles - Definitely felt it on this run normally keep my long runs fairly flat but this time ended up on a rather hilly route and was knackered by the end.
2/23 4.5 miles
I loved all the advice on training plans may tweak mine a bit as I think it breaks most of the rules. Rather excited signing up for a 7k night race in Liverpool this weekend with friends didn't even realise it was on
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date....distance.... Mtd......ytd
1/2........ 5k.............5k.........50k
3/2.........5k.............10k......55k
7/2.........5k.............15k.......60k
10/2.......5k.............20k.......65k
12/2.......5k.............25k.......70k
14/2.......5k.............30k.......75k
16/2.......5k.............35k........80k
19/2.......5k.............40k........85k
21/2.......5.5k..........45.5k.....90.5k
23/2.......5k.............50.5k......95.5k
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MorningGhost14 wrote: »
Because we can.WhatMeRunning wrote: »Why would an ultra runner run 30 miles if it gave no benefit over a 20 miler?
That sounds about right!
@Stoshew71 - I actually like that part of Jack Daniel's angle, the maximum benefit with least injury risk. However (please correct me if I'm wrong), it's not true that there are no physiological changes/benefits to running over 2.5 hours. It is that curve representing the the risk of injury over time spent running begins rapidly climbing upwards at the 2.5 hour mark. So his cutoff is purely injury based as opposed to being a cutoff for any biological reason. Just think that's worth pointing out because there is not a lot of info out there which I am familiar with on either ultra running or keto running. The way ultra runners run is different than the way marathoners run because they need more endurance and the ability to keep moving when completely depleted of glycogen. No matter how many carbs you take in while running they are not at all being effectively diverted to your muscles as new glycogen. That is more used to help your liver keep feeding your brain while the muscles use other fuel systems. At least that is how my brain has simplified things based on what I have learned.
So, hopefully I don't sound like I am necessarily disputing Jack Daniel's outright for his reasoning. I'm just trying to point out that his reasoning for the 2.5 hour cutoff is really just about risk of injury and not training to improve ones ability to run further.
I really think we need better research on ultra runners. That is if any can be found. As that blog @MorningGhost14 linked to, all of the ultra runners are either on the trails, eating, showering or sleeping. They are like bigfoot. They supposedly exist, but you just can't see them. Even if you run on trails because they will likely climb the trees and jump from branch to branch to pass you.
Oh, and I ran this morning. I probably shouldn't have though. That core muscle on my side that was sore yesterday was still sore this morning, but less so. So I dropped my planned 5 mile run to 4 miles to give it a better chance of healing up. But when I hit the 2 mile turnaround point it was a little more sore and my quads on that side were starting to burn. So I think it was affecting my form. I did 3 or 4 short walk breaks on the 2 miles back home to avoid overdoing anything. I may rest tomorrow. Friday was a scheduled rest day so I may even take 2 days off, or just swap out my rest day and run on Friday.
2/1 - 4 miles
2/2 - 4.3 miles
2/4 - 4 miles
2/6 - 11.1 miles
2/8 - 9.5 miles
2/10 - 4.5 miles
2/12 - 5.3 miles
2/14 - 9.2 miles
2/15 - 4 miles
2/16 - 4 miles
2/17 - 4.3 miles
2/18 - 4 miles
2/20 - 10 miles
2/21 - 4 miles
2/22 - 5 miles
2/23 - 5 miles
2/24 - 4 miles
96.2 of 100 miles
Upcoming races:
4/9 - Rock the Parkway half marathon (Kansas City, MO)
4/16 - Garmin Wickedly Fast half marathon (Olathe, KS)
4/23 - Race for Hope half marathon (North Kansas City, MO)
5/1 - Buffalo Bell Stampede half marathon (Leavenworth, KS)
5/14 - Running with the Cows half marathon (Bucyrus, KS)
6/2 - Hospital Hill 5k 7pm PRE-RUN (Kansas City, MO)
6/3 - Hospital Hill half marathon 7am RE-RUN (Kansas City, MO)
10/15 - Kansas City half marathon Marathon 26.2 (Kansas City, MO)
11/5 - Jenks half marathon (Jenks, OK)
11/6 - Kansas half marathon (Lawrence, KS)
11/12 - Longview half marathon (Kansas City, MO)
11/13 - Gobbler Grind half marathon (Overland Park, KS)
11/19 - White River half marathon (Cotter, AR)
11/20 - Pilgrim Pacer half marathon (Lenexa, KS)0 -
WhatMeRunning wrote: »MorningGhost14 wrote: »
Because we can.WhatMeRunning wrote: »Why would an ultra runner run 30 miles if it gave no benefit over a 20 miler? That sounds about right!
@Stoshew71 - I actually like that part of Jack Daniel's angle, the maximum benefit with least injury risk. However (please correct me if I'm wrong), it's not true that there are no physiological changes/benefits to running over 2.5 hours. It is that curve representing the the risk of injury over time spent running begins rapidly climbing upwards at the 2.5 hour mark. So his cutoff is purely injury based as opposed to being a cutoff for any biological reason. Just think that's worth pointing out because there is not a lot of info out there which I am familiar with on either ultra running or keto running. The way ultra runners run is different than the way marathoners run because they need more endurance and the ability to keep moving when completely depleted of glycogen. No matter how many carbs you take in while running they are not at all being effectively diverted to your muscles as new glycogen. That is more used to help your liver keep feeding your brain while the muscles use other fuel systems. At least that is how my brain has simplified things based on what I have learned.
So, hopefully I don't sound like I am necessarily disputing Jack Daniel's outright for his reasoning. I'm just trying to point out that his reasoning for the 2.5 hour cutoff is really just about risk of injury and not training to improve ones ability to run further.
I really think we need better research on ultra runners. That is if any can be found. As that blog @MorningGhost14 linked to, all of the ultra runners are either on the trails, eating, showering or sleeping. They are like bigfoot. They supposedly exist, but you just can't see them. Even if you run on trails because they will likely climb the trees and jump from branch to branch to pass you.
Since Jack has a PhD in exercise psyiology, I am almost positive he has done lots and lots of research to conclude why he says what he says. I must admit, I don't know all the science and research he has done, but I feel he actually believes that there is no point going beyond 2.5 hours and that as you pointed out, all you are doing is increasing your risk to getting injured (well in his mind).
Personally, I tell myself I can go a little longer than 2.5 hours.
Here is what I do know. The main purpose is to train your body to rely more on fat for energy than on carbohydrates. But there are quite a few other benefits too. Yes, you build strength the longer you run. But the longer you run, the more time you need to recover. You can do something similar by running more miles during the entire course of the week or even later on in the day. How much of a rest do you need when you run a certain distance? That is something you have to figure out on your own since this effects everyone differently.
Here is my theory why to cut it off early (whether it is 2.5 hours, 3 hours, or 3.5 hours...). So as you run, in the beginning you will be burning more carbs than fats. But eventually your body will rely more on fat than carbs (especially if you are running at an easy pace). How fast you make that transition and to what ratios? That is the main purpose of long run training. To improve this function. As you keep running and running, even though your body begins to rely more and more on fat, you will still burn a certain percentage of carbs (and the more intense you run, the more of a percentage it will be in carbs - btw more intense does not mean faster necessarily. fighting to maintain the same pace could also mean more intense). Eventually, you will exhaust your carb stores (or comes close to it) and the body and mind begins to fight back. At this point, it is no longer a phsyiological training exercise, but more of a mental thing. Your slow twitch muscles would have weakened a long time ago causing you to engage your medium twitch and then your fast twitch muscles. But eventually those get exhausted and much faster than the slow twitch. So your pace will drop. As you continue to run, you begin to cause more and more trauma to your muscle cells which require more time to recover from. Truly, at this point it becomes solely a mind game and not a psyiological thing. Now is there a benefit in this area that Daniels overlook? I believe so. You are pushing your mind to force your body to continue. But there is a cost to this as well as a benefit. That is what you have to decide when you go beyond whatever suggested limit.
Now while I run 20 milers and even a couple 22 milers before a race (against the advise of the 3 hour limit), I also know that my weekly mileage means more than hitting that 22 miler. When I ran my first 20 miler, I really started to feel it around mile 18. My pace really dropped. My last 2 miles were 2-3 minutes slower than the first 18. I questioned, if this is what happends when I hit 20, how the heck am I going to hit 26.2? I had folks reminding me that at the same time I ran this 20 miler, I also had a full week of runs. When I do it for real, I will have a long taper and carb load, and that will take me over the edge. And they were right. When you do your long run, you have to realize that you are doing it already with tired legs (from your other runs during the week). So you don't need to go as far to be in marathon shape. And you can do it with less recovery time.
I hope this makes sense.
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@Stoshew71 Ryan Hall is going to be at the rock and roll half in Dallas..
I may say "hey", exchange a high five. Maybe he'll let me rub his head for good luck, so maybe in my next life I can be an Olympic athlete.0 -
@Stoshew71 Ryan Hall is going to be at the rock and roll half in Dallas..
I may say "hey", exchange a high five. Maybe he'll let me rub his head for good luck, so maybe in my next life I can be an Olympic athlete.
That sounds awesome. Say hey for me (like he knows me -huh). lol0 -
@Stoshew71 .... you are right about the long runs in ultra training programs. This is the 50k plan I am following and while it has a couple of long runs (two 24 miles and a 26), it has more of the longer back-to-backs on the weekends. The idea is to get you used to running on dead legs. Now for the 100 mile program, it does call for at least 2 50k races to be run as training runs and a 50 mile training run. But it is mostly about doing doubles during the week and B2Bs on the weekends.
Because I am primarily trying to brace myself for the October race, I will be running my first two races as training runs, which means I am not planning on much of a taper (maybe a cutback the week of the race) and no extendend recovery time (maybe 3-4 days).
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2/1: 6 miles with Joe to Go crew
2/2: 5 miles
2/3: 7.5 miles
2/4: 8.2 miles (am), 6 miles (pm) with the Thursday crew
2/5: Rest day (hallelujah!)
2/6: 9.5 miles with the Saturday crew
2/7: 18 miles LR
2/8: 6.1 miles with Joe to Go crew
2/9: Rest day
2/10: 7 miles speedwork (am), 10 miles (pm)
2/11: 6 miles (am), 6 miles (pm) with the Thursday crew
2/12: Rest day!
2/13: 14 miles with Saturday crew
2/14: 7 miles
2/15: Rest/lazy day
2/16: 5 miles
2/17: 5 miles (am), 12 miles (pm)
2/18: 8 miles (am), 6 miles (pm) with the Thursday crew
2/19: Rest day!
2/20: 8.5 miles
2/21: 16 miles
2/22: 6 miles with Joe to Go crew
2/23: XT: 12 miles stationary bike
2/24: 10 miles
Waited to run in a warmish afternoon rain today rather than a cold, dark morning rain. I ended up going out around lunchtime for 10 miles to run at/below marathon pace. One thing I want to master before my next 26.2 is negative splits, so today I wanted to do a race simulation with negative splits. I started off a bit below goal MP for 5 miles then went above and beyond for the second 5. First half was 39:40 and second half was 38:45, so I'm feeling pretty good. I'm still shocked at how easy a 7:40 mile can feel when that used to by my 5K pace! Hopefully I'll be able to negative split with ease by the time my April HM rolls around!
Upcoming races:
3/12: Run o' the Mill 5K
4/3: Caesar Rodney Half Marathon
5/1: New Jersey Marathon0 -
@kristinegift-Really nice run. I think there is huge value in training with negative splits. I try to have negative splits for all of my runs and I try to make the last mile of my long run the fastest, always. I think your body somehow adapts to knowing that it needs to save up some energy for the end of your run and the mental boost is enormous. I believe that training like this is the number one factor that enabled me to run negatives for my last marathon. The pace for the last quarter of my race was 25 seconds faster than my average pace for the entire race, and (in my memory at least-haha) it was pretty painless.0
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@Stoshew71 @WhatMeRunning @kristinegift - I'm really enjoying this discussion.WhatMeRunning wrote: »I wanted to process the Jack Daniels video you posted for a while. He has an excellent point about how people have no doubts that a person who has run 2 miles in training can run a 10k race, or how 100 mile ultra runners have a longest training run of 30 miles. This was what I was trying to process.
I agree on that point but it is also one-dimensional in that the comparison is solely on the ratio of training run length to race run length and whether people who have run that race distance before believe a new runner could make it with only that smaller distance as their longest run. The mental aspect is the biggest no matter the distance.
That reminds me of a quibble I have with that part of the video. Right now, I believe I could run 2 miles a day for 2 or 3 weeks then run a 10K race. I do not believe I could have gone from being a non-runner to running 2 miles per day for however long and still run a 10K race. Maybe that would have worked physiologically, maybe I would have been compelled to slow to a walk after 3 or 4 miles of the 10K, certainly it would have been a *HUGE* mental barrier. I had enough doubts about running the entire 10K race after I'd run 6 miles for the first time 9 or 10 days earlier. It was very important to me mentally to run the 10K distance before a 10K race, and to run the half marathon distance before a half marathon race. It was a large leap of faith to run a marathon without a training run as long as the race; I had to trust people who had been there before.WhatMeRunning wrote: »@kristinegift - I think I might not be as unique of a specimen as I might like to think. As you mentioned all of my runs were fair distances, 100% of the at easy effort pace. My 3 marathons were run the same way I trained, at easy effort pace. I could not keep doing this beyond 3 fulls though because my base was nowhere near that sort of thing. But I was able to do the 3 with no big issues (not at all implying they were not super difficult).
That gets to my major thought about goals. Much of what is written for training assumes the goal is to run the race (marathon, half, 5K, whatever) as fast as is possible for the individual being trained. If the goal is not to be as fast as possible, but to finish in decent physical shape, I think the ideas on how to train and what is possible should change. I don't think there's much research on *how* they should change, and certainly there isn't much public noise on how they should change.Hahaha I am loving the long run discussion. For the record, I am not saying for everyone to follow Jack Daniel's. I actually break the 2.5 hours a lot. I reference him for completeness. I also respect Daniels very much and while I may not follow him completely, I understand where he comes from and agree with the science he portrays.
Now a thing about Daniels... He is known for saying, "In addition to always being able to indicate the purpose of every workout performed, it is wise to always try to gain the maximum benefit out of the least amount of stress rather than trying to achieve the maximum benefit from the most amount of stress." (Daniels' Running Formula-3rd Edition page 57) In other words, how do I get the most pysiological bang for my buck without overdoing it? Daniels is all about doing the least amount of work to get the most benefit. So it is understandable he cuts it off at 2.5 hours.
. . .
Now do I run 3 hour long runs? Look at my strava entries and you will see quite a few of them. Some even 3:15 and 3;30. So yes, even I break Daniels rule. But I try to not do it very often. I also believe that while there may not be any pysiological benefit for going beyond 2.5 or 3 hours, there is defientely a mental benefit as many of you pointed out. There is a huge mental confidence builder for my first marathon experience. I was pumped up when I completed my very first 20 miler training run ever which took me over 3 hours. So I agree there is a benefit, even if only mental.
Bottom line is, you do what you've found works. And how did all the scientific research get there? It started with what worked for elite runners, and looked for reasons why it worked. That's good, in that it can shut off some dead ends that don't work for anyone; but individuals still need to try different things to see what *will* work for them.
As for me, the 22 mile long run before my first marathon was huge mentally, even though I knew at the time that the difference between a 20 mile run and a 22 mile run was not consequential physically.
This time through the training cycle, recovery seems to be the most important thing that I need to pay attention to. It's not sexy, and it's hard to explain in words; but it's what will get me to the next speed workout, to the next long run, and ultimately to the start line. And I have to figure out for myself just how easy to run and how much to rest to recover. All the best explanations of how recovery works didn't do me much good until I experienced it for myself and compared it to the feeling of *not* recovering adequately.0 -
@lporter229 That is the goal! I love doing fast finishes for long runs; usually the last 3-4 miles bring the entire run's pace down by 10-15 seconds. But I want to do it in a more structured way and practice going out at a slower, sustainable pace, then speeding up on fatigued legs. I agree: finishing faster than you started is a huge mental boost. Also: your last 1/4 of the marathon must have been quite speedy! That's really impressive! I can only hope the end of my May marathon can be described as "pretty painless" too!0
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